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DISCLAIMER: THIS THREAD MIGHT AFFECT SOME OF YOUR PANTIES AND GET THEM IN A BUNCH.



The 2008-2009 Nets sported one of the best backcourts in the NBA with Harris and Carter. Along with rookies Brook Lopez and Ryan Anderson, and some good bench players in Dooling and Hayes the Nets made a strong push for the playoffs but barely missed it with a record of 34-48. I'd like to make a few comparisons with the roster we had then and the one we have now. Some of us are standing behind a good playoff push and it is definitely an interesting topic to discuss when comparing these rosters.

Travis Outlaw > Bobby Simmons

- Travis Outlaw is an underrated player IMO. The guy is extremely athletic, can shoot the 3, great size, still young, definitely has some upside. Outlaw has never had a starting role, so he definitely has something to prove.

- I remember several times in the 08-09 season where I had strong urges to kill Bobby Simmons. The guy is as defensively incompetent as they come. I would throw up in my mouth at the ease he was taken off the dribble and gave up easy points around the baskets. The only thing he did was shoot corner jumpers, and even those as the season went on didn't go in. Very happy I don't have to see him in a Nets uniform anymore.

Derrick Favors > Ryan Anderson

- Although we haven't seen Derrick Favors on the actual NBA floor I think we can safely say he is better than Ryan Anderson. This young player has TONS of potential and we are hoping he lives up to most of it and form one of the best frontcourts with Brook. People were saying that he was out of shape at Summer League, and even then he looked pretty decent, he will be a great big to have off the bench while he develops.

- I was sad to see Ryan go in the VC trade, he had great chemistry with Brook. Ryan has great range for his size, and is a great hustle player. I loved it when he fought for rebounds, although he isn't the best rebounder he gave 110% effort, something lots of our other players at the time lacked. Where he hurt us was on defense though, he was just too light to hold down other Forwards down low, and not athletic enough to keep up with more explosive PF's.

Anthony Morrow < Vince Carter

- Vince Carter was our best player on that roster. Even though he wasn't as explosive as he was in his previous years, Vince became the focal point of teams we played against. When VC decided to flip that switch and started cock slapping everyone, it was definitely something to enjoy. Vince was pretty good at creating for others, (which is what allowed Harris to flourish because he plays well off the ball) and was a player that could create his own shot. But what was most underrated wasn't his basketball skills, but his leadership. Vince was an amazing leader and mentor to the young guys that season. You would see him on the bench talking to Brook giving him props every time he did a nice post move or made a nice hustle play, he motivated Devin; pushing him to be great. When Devin got picked for the All-Star game over him (unfair) he was happy for him, never complained. Where VC really pissed us off was his inconsistency, we never knew what VC was going to show up on that given night, and that inconsistency really affected our team.

- Anthony Morrow is a young wing, who is a question mark on defense. What we CAN rely on is his amazing shooting. This guy can shoot the lights out, and will definitely help us not be the worse offensive team in the league. I still don't know if he is a good passer, and wonder how he will play next to Devin.

Jarvis Hayes = Damion James

- Hayes was a guy I enjoyed. Really cool personality, down to earth. He was an underrated defender IMO, and was a solid shooter.

- Damion James showed some nice flashes in Summer League, and the FO was high on him since draft day. He's a combo forward, who from what I've read has pretty good defense. Will definitely be a nice player to have off the bench.

Josh Boone < Johan Petro

- Josh Boone always seemed to have horrible hands, his absolutely horrid FT shooting was hurtful to watch, and it always seemed like his head wasn't in the game. Boone wasn't a good defender at the 4 or 5 I don't understand why some Nets fans think this. Defense to Boone was hacking his opponent and hoping the ref didn't see it. What Boone DID do well was rebound, he's a very good rebounder; but thats basically where his usefulness ends. Most of the time he was on the floor the guy was a liability to our team.

- Don't know much of Petro, read he's a good defender, still pretty young, and can't be any worse than Boone.

Keyon Dooling > Dumbo

- Keyon DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLING. Our most underrated bench player. The guy was a streaky shooter, but he had a mean streak to him. He provided great energy off the bench, and was a decent play-maker.

- Jordan Farmar didn't really get a chance to prove much while being with the Lakers, but he has championship experience, is still young, and has some upside left. Avery is high on him, and really likes his game. Looking forward to what he does with us.

Yi Jianlian < Troy Murphy

- Yi........ *takes a deep breath*. There was absolutely nothing this guy did that we could rely on. One of the worst PF's in the league, putrid offense, putrid defense, he did show flashes where he actually tried, but even then, he sucked.

- A walking double-double Charlehhh Murfayyyyy! A big we can rely on, good range, very efficient, and an expiring. Very happy about this trade.

Keyon Dooling + CDR < Terrence Williams

- Dooling was a solid combo guard. CDR actually played some ball at times that season, but didn't get much burn; too bad he is buried on the bench in Milwaukee.

- Most of us have high praise for T.Will. During the end of last season he was playing great basketball, and he was the main reason we avoided having the worst record of all time. Amazing play-making skills for his size, solid defender, can attack the rim pretty well. Needs to work on his shooting, but will be a great 6th man for us, and possibly future starter if he can get that jumper going.

Devin Harris (08-09) ? Devin Harris (10-11)

- Devin was an all-star that season, and has regressed considerably after the VC trade. One could argue that having VC there really helped take the attention away from him, that Devin benefits off of having a second playmaker in the starting line-up. But now Avery is back, will get him to play defense, and with a new attitude on winning who knows how he comes back, a return to the all-star game? Only time will tell.

Brook Lopez (08-09) < Brook Lopez (10-11)

- Brook showed significant improvement last season, and was one of the few bright sides. Most of us have high hopes for him, and now entering his 3rd season with solid frontcourt help in Murphy I expect him to surprise.

Trenton Hassel, Eduardo Najera, Stromile Swift, Sean Williams, Maurice Ager

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Sean May, Quinton Ross, Ben Uzoh, Brian Zoubek, Kris Humphries

I guess I'd agree with your assessment but it really comes down to how we gel. I know VC was taking a turn for the worse at that point but his unselfish passing is what really helped the 08-09 team play better.

I really don't see that guy on this roster right now that is going to make his team better. Harris can do it but will he and T-WIll has the ability as well but if he plays like he did in summer league then no he won't fit the mold either.

Really if we are going to see the playoffs (which I think we can if things go right) we need to have Devin and Brook at their best and healthy first and foremost. Next we need to defend and I think Avery's mentality should carry over to his players. Finally we need a 3rd player to break out into boardline allstar level play. We do have a few canidates to do that (Murphy, T-Will, Outlaw, Favors) not sure which one but one will have to. I'll put my money on T-Will, if Avery can get this guy's head on straight we'll will find ourselves in the hunt come the end of the year flirting with a .500 record.

Great pic BTW Amare better be scared.

I kind of agree with the post except the fat that you have our rookies already better than the players they respectively replace. It's fair assessment POTENTIAL wise, but so far they haven't proved anything, if anything I think you should've left those comparisons out.

It's just the players they are replacing weren't that great. These two rookies are pretty solid.

A factor I forgot to mention though: The East did get considerably tougher.

SOUP wrote:It's just the players they are replacing weren't that great. These two rookies are pretty solid.

You're basing those rookie performances on SUMMER CAMP. Now not saying these guys are going to be busts, but the guys they replaced were servicable players to us. Ryan Anderson I thought had a great rookie year with us and was looking forward to his 2nd year before he got traded. Jarvis Hayes was our 6th man and the shooter off the bench and did a good job at it. So I think comparing them with Favors and James who are completely different in terms of playing style. It's just not the right comparison.

And one thing you said in the first sentence kind of annoyed because I hate it when people say "you have to develop winning mentality". You don't develop that, you either have it or you don't, and if you're getting paid millions to play basketball, you better have that mentality or simple as you don't deserve to be in this league. As a competitor and a professional, you better want to win and that hunger better not go away, otherwise like I said, you should go to Europe and just get a paycheck there.

Look at Jamal Crawford, before last season he was always on losing teams. That didn't affect him in anyway and in fact was 6th Man of the Year last year.

SOUP wrote:A factor I forgot to mention though: The East did get considerably tougher.

The top 4 in the East, yes.

But other than that it's pretty wide open from the 5th seed down.

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:It's just the players they are replacing weren't that great. These two rookies are pretty solid.

You're basing those rookie performances on SUMMER CAMP. Now not saying these guys are going to be busts, but the guys they replaced were servicable players to us. Ryan Anderson I thought had a great rookie year with us and was looking forward to his 2nd year before he got traded. Jarvis Hayes was our 6th man and the shooter off the bench and did a good job at it. So I think comparing them with Favors and James who are completely different in terms of playing style. It's just not the right comparison.

And one thing you said in the first sentence kind of annoyed because I hate it when people say "you have to develop winning mentality". You don't develop that, you either have it or you don't, and if you're getting paid millions to play basketball, you better have that mentality or simple as you don't deserve to be in this league. As a competitor and a professional, you better want to win and that hunger better not go away, otherwise like I said, you should go to Europe and just get a paycheck there.

Look at Jamal Crawford, before last season he was always on losing teams. That didn't affect him in anyway and in fact was 6th Man of the Year last year.

I'm not comparing their styles, just who improves our team overall the most.

Concerning wanting to win: LeBron quit on his team because he knew they wouldn't win. Jason Kidd quit on us because we sucked. Bosh quit on his team because not only did they suck, but they FAILED miserably to build around him. Brook showed flashes last season where the losing was starting to affect him. Our team is relatively young, they need to build good chemistry, and that just isn't built by accepting to be losers. Like you said, these are professional athletes; but remember they have ego's, and some of them are in it for more than the money. Trying to bring in Jamaal Crawford to a conversation of winning mentality isn't really a good comparison at all. We have no superstar at the moment and are hoping that by playing our all, we can develop one.

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:A factor I forgot to mention though: The East did get considerably tougher.

The top 4 in the East, yes.

But other than that it's pretty wide open from the 5th seed down.

No,

Bulls
Bucks
Knicks
Philly
Pacers

SOUP wrote:

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:It's just the players they are replacing weren't that great. These two rookies are pretty solid.

You're basing those rookie performances on SUMMER CAMP. Now not saying these guys are going to be busts, but the guys they replaced were servicable players to us. Ryan Anderson I thought had a great rookie year with us and was looking forward to his 2nd year before he got traded. Jarvis Hayes was our 6th man and the shooter off the bench and did a good job at it. So I think comparing them with Favors and James who are completely different in terms of playing style. It's just not the right comparison.

And one thing you said in the first sentence kind of annoyed because I hate it when people say "you have to develop winning mentality". You don't develop that, you either have it or you don't, and if you're getting paid millions to play basketball, you better have that mentality or simple as you don't deserve to be in this league. As a competitor and a professional, you better want to win and that hunger better not go away, otherwise like I said, you should go to Europe and just get a paycheck there.

Look at Jamal Crawford, before last season he was always on losing teams. That didn't affect him in anyway and in fact was 6th Man of the Year last year.

I'm not comparing their styles, just who improves our team overall the most.

Concerning wanting to win: LeBron quit on his team because he knew they wouldn't win. Jason Kidd quit on us because we sucked. Bosh quit on his team because not only did they suck, but they FAILED miserably to build around him. Brook showed flashes last season where the losing was starting to affect him. Our team is relatively young, they need to build good chemistry, and that just isn't built by accepting to be losers. Like you said, these are professional athletes; but remember they have ego's, and some of them are in it for more than the money. Trying to bring in Jamaal Crawford to a conversation of winning mentality isn't really a good comparison at all. We have no superstar at the moment and are hoping that by playing our all, we can develop one.

In all fairness I wasn't really going by comparison, I just added that in, I was basing my statement on what these guys have done for us. Compared to rookies, who have shown great potential have yet to prove their worth.

For the winning thing, at the end of the day those guys still have that winning mentality, none of those players you mentioned have lost it, none of them developed it, they had it from the get-go when they entered the league, some of them like Lebron and Bosh may have accepted that winning is a long-term thing, but he still had that winning mentality and optimism that maybe long-term they can win until recently when they decided that he has a better chance with Miami. Those players just gave up on their current teams at the time winning it and them moving to contenders shows that they STILL WANT TO WIN. Jamal Crawford is a good example, because in another thread, you and other guys are saying that we have to "develop a winning mentality", this guy has been losing his whole career, regression is also a part of development, and he certainly didn't regress.

Understandable, but when your game relies on solely shooting it's hard to regress. Crawford is a great shooter, specially weird contested shots. Crawford always has fun on the court, he's a chucker, but he's somewhat efficient at it.

SOUP wrote:

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:A factor I forgot to mention though: The East did get considerably tougher.

The top 4 in the East, yes.

But other than that it's pretty wide open from the 5th seed down.

No,

Bulls
Bucks
Knicks
Philly
Pacers

Steady on.

Knicks, will they stay healthy the whole season? How's Amare's knees? What about Gallo's progression? Is Felton really a starting PG? What about their bench?

Bucks, can they repeat what they did last season? what about Bogut's arm? Jennings progression?

Philly, you remember that they were in the lottery last year right? How does Evan Turner do in his rookie year? WIll Elton Brand return to his top form? Will the trade of Dalembert hinder their D?

Pacers, how will Collison play out? What about Granger, can he stay healthy throughout the whole season? He hasn't played a full 82 games for 3 years now and if the Pacers want to get to the play-offs he'll probably have to play a MASSIVE majority of that. What about Hibbert? What about their big man rotation?

What about the Bobcats? Detroit? The East back then and the East now is pretty much the same, 4 dominating teams and the rest are just fighting to get in.

The only guarantees that you can predict is that the Nets, Cleveland, Washington, and the Raptors are not making the play-offs.

SOUP wrote:Understandable, but when your game relies on solely shooting it's hard to regress. Crawford is a great shooter, specially weird contested shots. Crawford always has fun on the court, he's a chucker, but he's somewhat efficient at it.

You also have to remember he's pretty much the main offence off the bench, yes that doesn't seem like a big role, but it's certainly a difficult one.

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:

treiz wrote:
The top 4 in the East, yes.

But other than that it's pretty wide open from the 5th seed down.

No,

Bulls
Bucks
Knicks
Philly
Pacers

Steady on.

Knicks, will they stay healthy the whole season? How's Amare's knees? What about Gallo's progression? Is Felton really a starting PG? What about their bench?

Bucks, can they repeat what they did last season? what about Bogut's arm? Jennings progression?

Philly, you remember that they were in the lottery last year right? How does Evan Turner do in his rookie year? WIll Elton Brand return to his top form? Will the trade of Dalembert hinder their D?

Pacers, how will Collison play out? What about Granger, can he stay healthy throughout the whole season? He hasn't played a full 82 games for 3 years now and if the Pacers want to get to the play-offs he'll probably have to play a MASSIVE majority of that. What about Hibbert? What about their big man rotation?

What about the Bobcats? Detroit? The East back then and the East now is pretty much the same, 4 dominating teams and the rest are just fighting to get in.

The only guarantees that you can predict is that the Nets, Cleveland, Washington, and the Raptors are not making the play-offs.

Knicks - I like to bash on Amare's knees as much as the next person, but I don't think they will be a problem early on in his career with the Knicks. Gallo's overhyped nonsense is moot to me, most Knicks fans are missing a screw. Felton is definitely a starting poing guard. Plays solid defense, and is a good playmaker, should be interesting to watch in Mike D's system.

Bucks - Top 3 defensive team in the league, took a "Top 4 Team" to 7 games without Bogut. This off-season added good role players, and Bogut is coming back.

Philly - Jrue with a season under his belt, additions of Spencer and Nocioni help them on offense. Don't forget about that one guy who always gets shafted for the all-star game. We haven't seen what Turner can do on an NBA floor, but it won't hurt them that's for sure.

Pacers - Ehh no PF, but Collison showed CP3 greatness in his rookie season, their young guys are going to get some burn, and Granger wants to win.

Bobcats, Detroit - Felton is underrated, and will show once DJ takes up the point in Charlotte. Detroit is no longer the franchise we once knew, many question marks reside there.

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:Understandable, but when your game relies on solely shooting it's hard to regress. Crawford is a great shooter, specially weird contested shots. Crawford always has fun on the court, he's a chucker, but he's somewhat efficient at it.

You also have to remember he's pretty much the main offence off the bench, yes that doesn't seem like a big role, but it's certainly a difficult one.

Crawford has been a chucker his whole career.

Rockice_8 wrote:I guess I'd agree with your assessment but it really comes down to how we gel.

and if we gel, the question remains...How productive can these new guys be in their new roles...And how much better do they make some our key returning players?

Why are we comparing this team to the mediocre 08-09 team?? Some of you are convinced that we'll be making the playoffs this year, then we should easily be better than that team.. which I don't even think we are...

jeff1624 wrote:Why are we comparing this team to the mediocre 08-09 team?? Some of you are convinced that we'll be making the playoffs this year, then we should easily be better than that team.. which I don't even think we are...

That mediocre team nearly made the playoffs, since some of us are talking about playoffs I found it interesting to discuss.

SOUP wrote:
Knicks - I like to bash on Amare's knees as much as the next person, but I don't think they will be a problem early on in his career with the Knicks. Gallo's overhyped nonsense is moot to me, most Knicks fans are missing a screw. Felton is definitely a starting poing guard. Plays solid defense, and is a good playmaker, should be interesting to watch in Mike D's system.

Bucks - Top 3 defensive team in the league, took a "Top 4 Team" to 7 games without Bogut. This off-season added good role players, and Bogut is coming back.

Philly - Jrue with a season under his belt, additions of Spencer and Nocioni help them on offense. Don't forget about that one guy who always gets shafted for the all-star game. We haven't seen what Turner can do on an NBA floor, but it won't hurt them that's for sure.

Pacers - Ehh no PF, but Collison showed CP3 greatness in his rookie season, their young guys are going to get some burn, and Granger wants to win.

Bobcats, Detroit - Felton is underrated, and will show once DJ takes up the point in Charlotte. Detroit is no longer the franchise we once knew, many question marks reside there.

Knicks should make it of Amare stay healthy, key word "healthy".

Bucks, fair enough with the defensive team. But the Warriors eliminated the the Mavs not so long ago, I wonder what happened to them afterwards? As with the added players, you can say all you want about them, but this team goes as far Jennings progression takes them, Bogut can only do so much.

Fair enough with Philly, but a lot of that boils down on what Brand does this season.

Pacers. Sorry, Collison had a great rookie season, but not CP3 greatness that you just stated, if that was the case, then I'm sure NO would've had a better record than the 14-26 that they had when he started for them. Again young guys, how will their development be? There are a lot of questions going to be asked this season about Hibbert, Rush and co. Their development as well as Collisons will be what factors how far this team goes. Again, Granger wants to win like you said, and you just kind of backed up my point with my never "losing that winning mentality" rant, he hasn't been in the play-offs since his rookie year, and yet he'd feel that this is the time to push for the play-offs.

Bobcats still have one of the most underrated players in the league in Gerald Wallace, they have Stephen Jackson and Bris Diaw who are pretty good players. Tyrus Thomas may have a good year, depending on which side of his decides to show up. Damps is a servicable player and so is Hughes. Whilst the PG is an issue, I'm sure Felton didn't set those expectations too high, and who knows, Augustin may easily replace him. They were also in the play-offs last year and I doubt the loss of Felton will all of a sudden take them out of play-off contention.

Detroit has Ben Gordon, Villanueva, Prince and Rip as their core players.They have Maxiell and Ben Wallace. They just got a good big man in Earl Monroe and they have good young guys in Jerebko, Stuckey, Daye and Bynum. I think they have a chance of at least an 8th seed.

My point is that any one of the teams mentioned can finished in between those seeds, it's not a guarantee. a lot can happen in an 82-game season, not just that but towards later on in the season and towards the play-offs, the demand of an 82-game season will show and injuries will occur. I'm just saying although the Bulls are probably favorites to finish with the 4th or 5th seed, depending on luck they can easily finish as the 8th seed.

SOUP wrote:

treiz wrote:

SOUP wrote:Understandable, but when your game relies on solely shooting it's hard to regress. Crawford is a great shooter, specially weird contested shots. Crawford always has fun on the court, he's a chucker, but he's somewhat efficient at it.

You also have to remember he's pretty much the main offence off the bench, yes that doesn't seem like a big role, but it's certainly a difficult one.

Crawford has been a chucker his whole career.

And I'm not denying that.

The 08-09 squad is better than our squad now, mainly because of VC and his playmaking abilities.