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Carter question..I know, I know.

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Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#1 » by Blue_and_Whte » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:56 pm

So Carter hate is alive and well on the Magic boards. After it was proven that he played well the second half of the season and was not the reason why we lost in PO"s, people have now turned to calling him fat and out of shape....Watching him the last few season did VC look fat or out of shape to you guys last year? Thanks for any responses.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#2 » by mikhailjordan » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:03 pm

He was never fat or out of shape in NJ... I still maintain that the Magic are idiots (no offense) for not putting the ball in Vince Carter's hands MORE often.

You don't take a great playmaker and have him play second fiddle to the likes of Jameer Nelson. Stan Van Gundy needs to be more creative.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#3 » by enetric » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:07 pm

To answer your question, no he didnt seem fat and out of shape to me. I think fit seems to be an issue with your team. Not just for VC...but how the players make each other better.

Your best player...is not a good offensive player. For all he is defensively...he is not a big that draws double teams like Shaq...and then knows what to do with the ball when he does get the double. How to swing it...how to maximize your team. Basically...you guys shoot threes to help him out rather than your big giving you easy looks on the wing where he rotates the ball back out. They are there to help him more than the other way around. He will get his dunks in transition. He will get his put backs. He will make a shot here and there...but he isnt creating offense at this stage regardless of his point totals.

Carter is a scorer who can easily fall in love with being a shooter. He is also a guy who can easily step back and defer. He is at his best when he is told...ATTACK the basket but shoot your set shots from deep. Set shots come from ball rotation. When VC is in catch and shoot mode...he is money. He is also a great play maker. He has a PG mentality. While he will get his....he has hoops smarts even if he doesnt always show it. he should be used more of a play maker on that team. That is what we all thought you got him for in the first place.

When he was younger...and comfortable attacking the basket...or when pressured to go strong...he was explosive. But he can easily shy from contact...and can easily start to look for ways to finesse and take dumb shots. God... how we all hated the leg kicking fadeaway.

You know, as over paid as Rashard is...he really fits Howard. A big that stretches the D really helps what he doesnt have as a player offensively. I am sure his declining rebounding drives you guys nuts though. The thing is...beyond Dwight...you have had touble making the pieces max their fit. Even two seasons ago...you guys made the finals....I was often surprised watching how poorly Hedo and Rashard fit together. I think you guys need to upgrade at the point. You were getting a ton out of Jameer...more than I ever though you could. But if you could upgrade to a better pass first guy...I think it would be a huge help to everyone on that team. VC, Howard, and Rashard specifically. In the mean time...you have to let VC be more involved in running that offense.

Just bring everyone's skill sets front and center. But...if you are expecting VC of old...high flying...explosive athlete all the time...I think that might be asking too much at this stage. Its more about age than fat. Stats wise his production per minute was almost identical to his previous season....you played him much less per game than he did for us...about 6 minutes or 20% less.

I think if you are expecting...22/5/5 you can forget it. But...give him his touches to get into his rhythm, play him 35 minutes and you will get 20/4.5/4.5 still. At least that is what he would have given you last season. Will he show more decline this year entering 33 years of age? Its not unlrealistic.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#4 » by SpeedyG » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:31 pm

That's really the Magic's problem...the guy who can give the ball to the scorers where they can make the most out of it. For all the things Jameer brings, that's not one of them. Hedo brought some of that, and at a position that is often not associated with it.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#5 » by iDunk » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:10 am

Carter was used wrong in Orlando last year. I think this year he'll be much more effective in the Magic uniform. He only got 14 shots per game last year opposed to 17 during his last year with the Nets while he was still trying to be a leader and let Harris and Lopez take over.

Next year I think Carter will average 18/4/3.5 type numbers.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#6 » by ecuhus1981 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:30 am

Hedo earned SVG's trust and gave ORL exactly what they need in the same way that VC need to: GIVE HOWARD THE DARN BALL.

We all know that Duhwight is a numbskull, but if you make it easy for him, he can really dominate offensively. Honestly. He actually was a nightmare for teams defensively and offensively while Hedo was with the team, and it's the main reason that they were dangerous then. Last year, teams figured out that no one on the Magic roster was going to dish it to Howard once the double team came, and it was their undoing IMO.

I thought Vince could redefine his legacy, since he's never played with a current All-Star bigman. But he never created that Nash-Stoudemire or Wade-O'neal type of pick-and-roll link, almost always preferring to resort to his crosscourt jump-pass. If he can't lift his own level of play with a guy like Howard around, he'll never be a true champion.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#7 » by enetric » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:25 am

ecuhus1981 wrote:Hedo earned SVG's trust and gave ORL exactly what they need in the same way that VC need to: GIVE HOWARD THE DARN BALL.

We all know that Duhwight is a numbskull, but if you make it easy for him, he can really dominate offensively. Honestly. He actually was a nightmare for teams defensively and offensively while Hedo was with the team, and it's the main reason that they were dangerous then. Last year, teams figured out that no one on the Magic roster was going to dish it to Howard once the double team came, and it was their undoing IMO.

I thought Vince could redefine his legacy, since he's never played with a current All-Star bigman. But he never created that Nash-Stoudemire or Wade-O'neal type of pick-and-roll link, almost always preferring to resort to his crosscourt jump-pass. If he can't lift his own level of play with a guy like Howard around, he'll never be a true champion.


Yeah see...Dwight hasnt shown that he can dominate offensively. NOT AT ALL. He scores what? 6 or 7 fg's per game? How many of those are transition dunks, and offensive put backs per game? At least HALF? So he is good for 3-4 post baskets per game TOPS. he doesnt know how to create offense. Not a playmaker. Not a guy who sees the double team...and makes the good pass back out like Shaq did his entire career. He is NOT that type of player. His great fg% is more about easy baskets than being unstoppable like Shaq was. Offensively...Dwight is closer to Mutombo than he is Shaq. Sure...that is a slap. He is more physically impressive...much more of an athlete...more coordinated. But still...his offensve game is so raw. Rebounding wise...shot blocking wise...he is an UBER stud. But people confuse his point totals with his value. He presents plenty of offensive issues that the team has to help with.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#8 » by gino_giode » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:53 am

I remember how money Carter was on the block (or at the FT line) when he'd either back his man down or face him up and with 2 strides was at the hoop.

I was begging SVG to get his head out of his ass all season (especially in the PO's when Ray Allen would cover him for stretches) to put Vince in the post to break his man down instead of having to do it 25+ ft out with some lame duck ISO or PnR. Only when LFrank gave some pointers did SVG start utilizing Vince's post skills more often, after realizing Vince WASN'T Turkoglu and actually had more offensive skill.

But I can also understand how Vince is used sparingly in the post since Dwight can't hit a shot outside of 5 ft and thus his man will always be roaming the paint.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#9 » by halfHAVOC » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:59 am

he isn't used effectively on that team

the ball needs to be in HIS HANDS and it needs to find him more on plays, hes the best playmaker on that team. Either he can get to the bucket, hit the shot or hes setting up someone for an easy 3 or dwight off the lob. I still dont understand why VC/DH pick and rolls aren't used as often....
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#10 » by gino_giode » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:39 am

halfHAVOC wrote:he isn't used effectively on that team

the ball needs to be in HIS HANDS and it needs to find him more on plays, hes the best playmaker on that team. Either he can get to the bucket, hit the shot or hes setting up someone for an easy 3 or dwight off the lob. I still dont understand why VC/DH pick and rolls aren't used as often....


The VC-Dwight PnR works to an extent. It gives Vince the lane to drive and it usually has good results, either get to the hoop, or suck in another defender and Vince kicks it out for a 3. But because Dwight isn't a threat from 5 ft out means that Dwight's man can shade Vince as soon as he turns the corner, and since Stan runs the PnR for Vince starting outside of the perimeter, Dwight's man can just ignore Dwight and wait for Vince. And all Vince's man (who just got screened) has to do is get in Dwight's way to the basket therefore limiting the opportunity for a lob or pass to Dwight. And Dwight's man can also effect Dwight's shot, unless Dwight was able to roll right to the basket as well.

The reason why Jameer's PnR w/ Dwight works well is because there's a lot of familiarity between them, but also because Jameer doesn't go to the basket, but needs to be respected from midrange, therefore Dwight's man can't protect the paint well. If he is too slow, Jameer will take the mid-J, and if he commits early Jameer throws up the easy lob.

But Vince's lack of success w/ Dwight on the PnR can also be due to his one track mind once he commits. He wants to be aggressive as he has stated all throughout last season, and that's what he feels he was brought in for, to attack and make Dwight's life easier. But he definitely lost a step last season (partly due to nagging injuries) so he didn't convert on the same frequency or with the same flash and tenacity as he has in Jersey. He also seemed to get down on himself a lot last season when the shots/attacking the paint didn't work and wasn't getting the benefit of the calls.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#11 » by SpeedyG » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:25 pm

halfHAVOC wrote:he isn't used effectively on that team

the ball needs to be in HIS HANDS and it needs to find him more on plays, hes the best playmaker on that team. Either he can get to the bucket, hit the shot or hes setting up someone for an easy 3 or dwight off the lob. I still dont understand why VC/DH pick and rolls aren't used as often....


Eh, I don't know. It wasn't an ideal fit, but I don't think VC played well either. Too much deferring really, not enough aggressive play. VC always needs that player who will push him to play the way he can best play at...Oak in Tor, Kidd here.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#12 » by magicman123 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:23 pm

the problem with vince is that he would get stuffed by the rim or by players like boykins, late in games all his success came from long jumpers or 3 pointers..injuries/age/both- hampered his ability at times to take over late in games..he was used wrong at times, but he had his faults..hopefully he gels better this season

anyways how do you guys feel about your team this year? hopefully you do a lot better
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#13 » by Blue_and_Whte » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:42 pm

enetric wrote:To answer your question, no he didnt seem fat and out of shape to me. I think fit seems to be an issue with your team. Not just for VC...but how the players make each other better.

Your best player...is not a good offensive player. For all he is defensively...he is not a big that draws double teams like Shaq...and then knows what to do with the ball when he does get the double. How to swing it...how to maximize your team. Basically...you guys shoot threes to help him out rather than your big giving you easy looks on the wing where he rotates the ball back out. They are there to help him more than the other way around. He will get his dunks in transition. He will get his put backs. He will make a shot here and there...but he isnt creating offense at this stage regardless of his point totals.

Carter is a scorer who can easily fall in love with being a shooter. He is also a guy who can easily step back and defer. He is at his best when he is told...ATTACK the basket but shoot your set shots from deep. Set shots come from ball rotation. When VC is in catch and shoot mode...he is money. He is also a great play maker. He has a PG mentality. While he will get his....he has hoops smarts even if he doesnt always show it. he should be used more of a play maker on that team. That is what we all thought you got him for in the first place.

When he was younger...and comfortable attacking the basket...or when pressured to go strong...he was explosive. But he can easily shy from contact...and can easily start to look for ways to finesse and take dumb shots. God... how we all hated the leg kicking fadeaway.

You know, as over paid as Rashard is...he really fits Howard. A big that stretches the D really helps what he doesnt have as a player offensively. I am sure his declining rebounding drives you guys nuts though. The thing is...beyond Dwight...you have had touble making the pieces max their fit. Even two seasons ago...you guys made the finals....I was often surprised watching how poorly Hedo and Rashard fit together. I think you guys need to upgrade at the point. You were getting a ton out of Jameer...more than I ever though you could. But if you could upgrade to a better pass first guy...I think it would be a huge help to everyone on that team. VC, Howard, and Rashard specifically. In the mean time...you have to let VC be more involved in running that offense.

Just bring everyone's skill sets front and center. But...if you are expecting VC of old...high flying...explosive athlete all the time...I think that might be asking too much at this stage. Its more about age than fat. Stats wise his production per minute was almost identical to his previous season....you played him much less per game than he did for us...about 6 minutes or 20% less.

I think if you are expecting...22/5/5 you can forget it. But...give him his touches to get into his rhythm, play him 35 minutes and you will get 20/4.5/4.5 still. At least that is what he would have given you last season. Will he show more decline this year entering 33 years of age? Its not unlrealistic.


Thanks.

In terms of dwight's offensive game, I agree that he's limited, he has about 3 go to moves and they work but he does need to add a little range and more counter moves. He has improved offensively since his rookie year and my hope is that working Hakeem has expadited his development from that aspect. However, dwight indeed does get double teamed pretty much every game. There are a few teams that can single cover Howard, his simple passing out of the the double team has made strides but he's still TO prone and it's certainly nothing to write home about. So in a nutshell his improvment on the offensive side of the ball is critical.

The trend now is that Jameer is looked at with VC glasses on by most new "Magic fans" so I'm used to the "Trade Jameer" opinions not only from VC fans but a couple Magic fans alike. I dont think Jameer is the problem though, our team consists of 2 guys that can create shots Nelson and Carter the rest of the team outside of Howard and Gortat are jump shooters waitiing on the wing. Jameer and Vince do a great job of driving and kicking. Not only do I think moving Jameer is not the answer, I dont think there is much of an upgrade to be had outside of a handful of PG's. I also dispute an upgade at point being the answer b/c VC played with Harris, who is also a scoring PG, and actually IMO nelson is a better shooter than Harris which benefits us alot when Vince is making plays.

Most of our posters were pretty realistic when Vince was brought on board. We knew his shots would decrease and that his athleticism was on the decline. 18-16 ppg a few assists and rebounds. His passing ability wasn't a surprise to anyone. he was pretty much what I expected anyway. I think Vince is a volume shooter and I feel he has trouble getting into a rythm b/c the scoring is spread out. I think SVG needs to get VC more looks especially in the post at least put him in an easier position to score and get him into a good rythm. Anyway, just for the record, I dont think he's a top athlete but he certainly isn't fat, just people reaching for a reason to make him the scapegoat imo
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#14 » by Blue_and_Whte » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:50 pm

enetric wrote:
ecuhus1981 wrote:Hedo earned SVG's trust and gave ORL exactly what they need in the same way that VC need to: GIVE HOWARD THE DARN BALL.

We all know that Duhwight is a numbskull, but if you make it easy for him, he can really dominate offensively. Honestly. He actually was a nightmare for teams defensively and offensively while Hedo was with the team, and it's the main reason that they were dangerous then. Last year, teams figured out that no one on the Magic roster was going to dish it to Howard once the double team came, and it was their undoing IMO.

I thought Vince could redefine his legacy, since he's never played with a current All-Star bigman. But he never created that Nash-Stoudemire or Wade-O'neal type of pick-and-roll link, almost always preferring to resort to his crosscourt jump-pass. If he can't lift his own level of play with a guy like Howard around, he'll never be a true champion.


Yeah see...Dwight hasnt shown that he can dominate offensively. NOT AT ALL. He scores what? 6 or 7 fg's per game? How many of those are transition dunks, and offensive put backs per game? At least HALF? So he is good for 3-4 post baskets per game TOPS. he doesnt know how to create offense. Not a playmaker. Not a guy who sees the double team...and makes the good pass back out like Shaq did his entire career. He is NOT that type of player. His great fg% is more about easy baskets than being unstoppable like Shaq was. Offensively...Dwight is closer to Mutombo than he is Shaq. Sure...that is a slap. He is more physically impressive...much more of an athlete...more coordinated. But still...his offensve game is so raw. Rebounding wise...shot blocking wise...he is an UBER stud. But people confuse his point totals with his value. He presents plenty of offensive issues that the team has to help with.


I think you have to factor in the fact that dwight get's instantly held once he does get under the basket, which is quite often. His inability to at least shoot in the high 60's has hurt him. Also, when Dwight is in a good scoring rythm the team goes away from him and revert to jumpshooting. So there are a number of things to really atribute that too not just his llimited post game.
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Re: Carter question..I know, I know. 

Post#15 » by enetric » Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:46 am

I dont dispute that he gets double teamed. I mean...lets face it...so for most of his career...why wouldnt you double team him? When a big man gets the ball...he has the advatange. From there when the double team comes...you punish the D one of two ways. Make good passes and find the open man as a result of the double (why having a stretch 4 is so important for that offenve) or make your ft's on the foul.

Since he isnt a good passer and he isnt good from the line...double teaming him is simply smart basketball. See Shaq? Shaq got the double...had great timing for rotating the ball or finding the open man...AND he could simply dominate on BOTH guys from the pivot. When you can dunk THROUGH a double team...that isnt a lack of anything the way some fools used to make it sound like. That was sheer dominance.

Dwight has the size, speed and strength but offensively speaking...yes limitted.

I think your point about reverting to jump shooting was a fair point but realize. That your team has clearly indentified that they need to open up the floor as much as possible for him. Rashard is ONLY a stand still shooter at this point. No other game. And there has been that encouragement no doubt for everyone else to do the same. You guys live and die with the three as a system.

I think while you have ot have realistic expepcations of VC...if you actually ran more stuff through him...and the challenge was ATTACH THE PAINT...but you can shoot your 3 off the catch and shoot...you get the best of VC.

When he is allowed to create and fade from contact...disaster. When he is the after thought...disaster. He is one of the true great perimiter god given talents of his generation. Forget the downside and attacks. The guy can do it all. The thing is..he WONT if he is not put into the role he needs to have. IN theory he should have been a much better fit for what you needed than Hedo. But...he wasnt used like that.

Now, of course...add in age...each year will become an adventure now.

If you can get Howard going early, then have VC DRIVING not shooting to follow...you will maximize your offensive talent. PLus, VC is a very unselfish player. Great passer. PG like instincts if asked to take on that role.

Either way? I come back to Dwight. He is your core. Your youth. Your star. At this stage...you go as far as he takes you. If he comes in and takes the next level...you wont need to point fingers at anyone else. He will make everyone elses job easier...and in turn...that makes them better.

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