RealGM

I know that the merge-happy mods on this board are licking their chops at this one, but I didn't post it anywhere else because:

-- it's not solely a Dwight topic;
-- it's not solely a draft topic; and
-- I'd really like to tally people's opinions of this idea.

OK, so we are NOWHERE NEAR assured of getting Anthony Davis. With "only" the 4th-worst record in the league, our chances of securing the #1 pick in this year's draft are only ~12%. BUT, I know Unibrow has been the subject of much debate around here recently, and we've been in the eye of the Dwightmare storm all year.

My main question is, which would we rather have, going forward? Keep in mind, I'm not comparing the two are players, I'm comparing ASSETS. In essence, I want to know if Nets fans think it would be fair value to trade the #1 pick straight up for Dwight Howard?

On July 1st, we would have the salary cap room to execute the deal, which would give Orlando a $19mil TPE and a can't-miss prospect with HoF potential. Do you think the Magic would ask for more? Maybe we would need to absorb a contract (Hedo/Duhon/Davis/Q), or send another asset (Lopez/HOU1st/Brooks/Morrow/Farmar). If so, would you still do it?

There are advantages to each side. For Dwight, you get a sure-thing. At 26, he's arguably a top-2 player in the league, and easily the most dominant bigman of his era. Securing him would almost guarantee Deron stays, and that is a championship core RIGHT NOW. If we had to give primo youth assets and/or take on Orlando's carcass contracts, though, it could hogtie us financially and stunt our ascension into true contender status.

Anthony Davis may be 5 years away from his peak, but IMO he could immediately contribute to a contender with his elite finishing ability and rim-protecting defense. He's also a more natural fit alongside Brook Lopez, and obviously keeping him would mean keeping our other young, promising players. Perhaps most importantly, we would keep the salary cap flexibility to add other complementary pieces, arriving in Brooklyn with a bona fide star, two great young bigmen and a bevy of wing role players. Deron has spoken flatteringly about Anthony, perhaps indicating his comfort with this option.

Bottom line: WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

You're title is VERY misleading. You should change it.

To answer your question, I'd rather have D12 because that means D-Will stays and we could start building a championship roster.

With PEB, he'll definitely be a good player, but we don't know how good he'll become at the end of the day.

I choose Duh-Wight Coward.

Rich should merge this on principle alone.

NyCeEvO wrote:To answer your question, I'd rather have D12 because that means D-Will stays and we could start building a championship roster.

+1

JoseRizal wrote:

NyCeEvO wrote:To answer your question, I'd rather have D12 because that means D-Will stays and we could start building a championship roster.

+1

Believe me, I hear you. But don't Deron's recent comments soften your position on this at all? I mean, an unsolicited ringing endorsement of Davis HAS to mean something, right???

Also, isn't there a point where Dwight becomes too expensive? Let's face it: we're not bidding against anyone else. It's all about how much Billy King will kowtow to his ol' pal Otis Smith. It's fine to think, "anything but Deron", but I don't want to see us get bent over Dodgers-style. I think Wallace/Lopez/#1 for Howard/Hedo is overpaying, but I imagine I'm in the minority, as I was throughout the Melo-drama. But I fully anticipate it being MUCH, much more than that.

Orlando is looking to juice us for all we're worth. The absolute maximum deal we could extend on July 1st is something like

Wallace/Morrow/Farmar/Lopez/Brooks/#1/#16/'13NJN1st/'15NJN1st

for

Howard/Hedo/Duhon/Q

We would have a Big Two, tied to declining vets with onerous long-term contracts. If we could find some ring-chasers, we'd have a *chance*. But all of the other contenders would all have a legit "BIG 3": MIA, OKC, CHI and LAC. They'd also have better 4th and 5th options than we would, and a lack of capspace and 1st-rounders would only magnify that dearth. I simply can't see a championship payout if we sell the farm just for Duhwight.

I rather have the proven player who's arguably the 2nd best player in the NBA and already a **** monster. This isn't a lesser player...it's Dwight **** Howard.

Ronito wrote:I rather have the proven player who's arguably the 2nd best player in the NBA and already a **** monster. This isn't a lesser player...it's Dwight **** Howard.

+1

It would be another massive gamble if we didn't trade Davis for Dwight but im going to be honest here, I'd want to keep Davis.

I'm presuming that the magic would want Lopez etc as well and in that case I'd rather have a very good solid team in Lopez, Davis & Wallace than just Howard with D Will.

David is a complete monster & will be a star. Why should we trade a star on a rookie deal to appease D Will.

We could have the best front court in the NBA in Lopez & Davis on a good contract & rookie deal.

I no people will say I'm crazy & all that but Davis is the truth & I wouldn't want to trade him at all.

Again im looking at it from the point of view that we'd obviously give Orlando more than just Davis. I don't want to turn into a 2man team with Howard & D Will picking crap players like Jackson to play with.

With Williams, Wallace, Davis & Lopez we'd have a very good core. With moves like Brooks & Houston pick for Lamb, I believe we'd be at least the 3rd best team in the East in Brooklyn.

With that team, if Wallace were opting in (doubt it) we'd have some cap room to make moves for someone like Smith next summer. That team just has so many options, instead of being capped out with two max contracts & little wiggly room.

It would be the correct way to build a contender, with the hope that Davis is your 2nd star with elite 3rd options like Lopez etc & possible cap to sign another very good player.

Come at me

N Ireland Nets wrote:Come at me

Most certainly.

I'm presuming that the magic would want Lopez etc as well and in that case I'd rather have a very good solid team in Lopez, Davis & Wallace than just Howard with D Will.

Why are we presuming how much Orlando would get?

They've already looked into hitting us with tampering charges, they repeatedly tried to woo Dwight back to them and they have successfully done that, which is a good thing for their franchise but obviously not for us.

The Magic wouldn't be getting our entire front court of Wallace, Lopez, and PEB in a deal. Even if Chicago chimed in with Boozer and Deng, I'd let them have him, but I'm not giving up all 3 + Brooks + more picks. No, that's way too much.

With the way the situation has gone so far, you draw a line in the sand and you don't go passed it.

Plus, there's no way that we'd gift Orlando PEB along with Lopez, along with an expiring in Wallace, Brooks who can be traded with a pick for a better draft prospect or veteran player, and more draft picks.

That's nonsense.

There is a line, especially when you'd have PEB on your team, and you don't have to cross it. Give up a certain amount and ONLY a certain amount, since we can go into Brooklyn with a playoff caliber team anyway.

David is a complete monster & will be a star.

In the NCAA, he is, but not the NBA. He has the potential to be a star, but no one is going to gift him that title before he gets there and earns it.

Why should we trade a star on a rookie deal to appease D Will.

Because he's not a star yet?

Because we don't know what he'll max out at, especially with his lack of an offensive game. All of those HS moves that he used to beast on kids in those Hoopsmixtape videos aren't going to work on the pro level.

This is my problem with PEB talk. People are granting HOF and superstar status before he steps on the court. LBJ was uber-talented and yet we all still needed to see him prove it on the court before we praised him.

And it still took him a few years to become a dominant beast.

Davis has got a ways to go, but he's not an NBA star yet and he may not be for 4+ years.

We could have the best front court in the NBA in Lopez & Davis on a good contract & rookie deal.

Lopez and PEB is not the best frontcourt in the NBA.

Again, much of this is predicated on the fact that Davis isn't even in the league yet, but a healthy Z-Bo and Marc Gasol or Bynum and Gasol are definitely better, especially considering that Davis would be a rookie and who still needs time to adjust to the NBA.

Eventually, it could become the best backcourt, but both Lopez and PEB have to improve in order for that to happen.

Again im looking at it from the point of view that we'd obviously give Orlando more than just Davis. I don't want to turn into a 2man team with Howard & D Will picking crap players like Jackson to play with.

Are we forgetting what D12 and D-Will with crap players, let alone cap space, can do?

Oh boy...let's not fool ourselves here.

And we would not be trading the entire Nets roster minus D-Will and all future assets for him. That's not happening.

With Williams, Wallace, Davis & Lopez we'd have a very good core. With moves like Brooks & Houston pick for Lamb, I believe we'd be at least the 3rd best team in the East in Brooklyn.

With that team, if Wallace were opting in (doubt it) we'd have some cap room to make moves for someone like Smith next summer. That team just has so many options, instead of being capped out with two max contracts & little wiggly room.

While the team with PEB has more options to improve, players want to go where the stars are.

Do you see how veteran players like Nash and Terry immediately talk about how they could go to Miami (and not the Pacers)?

With D-Will and D12, we wouldn't be capped out and players would actually want to come to us.

With that other option, we become a good team, but not a contender.

If you can't tell already, I think you're grossly overestimating PEB's impact in his first two years in the league.

He needs at least 2-3 years to develop an NBA offensive game. By that time, Wallace is most likely gone and D-Will and Lopez are a good ways into their contract.

If we have no shot at D12 and D-WIll is ok with not having another star, then I don't mind keeping PEB. But because he's definitely a few years away from becoming an NBA allstar, I think he's still an asset for a major trade, and not a definite keeper.

It would be the correct way to build a contender, with the hope that Davis is your 2nd star with elite 3rd options like Lopez etc & possible cap to sign another very good player.

There's no "correct" way to build a contender lol.

Davis will be a star (if he fulfills his potential) when D-Will is 30+ and that's not a good thing.

We need to stop this man crush on the unibrow and stop assuming that NCAA = NBA and that Davis won't be an actual rookie when he comes in.

He needs a lot of work on the NBA level and he has much potential to fill over time.

Anthony Davis + Lopez + Brooks over Dwight + Hedo + Duhon. Obviously Dwight would make D Will stay, but if that isn't being considered, then I'd prefer Davis, Lopez, and Brooks. Davis and Lopez would be one hell of a frontcourt. In fact, Davis would probably be the perfect fit next to Lopez.

To NyCeEvO

I said Lopez & Davis 'could' be the best front court in the NBA. They would be a perfect match for each other.

The difference between what you've said & I've said is that your being pessimistic & I'm bring optimistic.

Griffin came into the league with a buzz & in his rookie season (2nd year after injury) he looked like an all star.

Why can't Davis do the same?

I'm more impressed with Davis than Griffin in college. So why trade a very good, insanely high ceiling player?

There is no way the Magic would trade Howard for Davis straight. Your saying you'd draw a line in the offer for Howard but King would give the farm up for Howard & you know he would.

Your being way to cautious with the idea it'll take 4 odd years before Davis will shine in the NBA. I honestly believe he will be a very good PF in the NBA quickly.

I fail to see why I'm wrong for wanting to keep Davis over a trade for Howard.

Also we could be going into 2013 with only Williams, Brooks, Davis(if we our lucky enough to get the 1st pick) & Lopez on the books. We could have room for another top player in free agency like Iggy or Smith, obviously depending on the size of Lopez's deal.

This thread = TL;DR

If we hit the jackpot and land Davis, no way I trade him to Orlando for Dwight... the Magic for stringing us along. Either they take Lopez and a few picks or they get nothing and risk losing him in 2013.

jeff1624 wrote:This thread = TL;DR

If we hit the jackpot and land Davis, no way I trade him to Orlando for Dwight... the Magic for stringing us along. Either they take Lopez and a few picks or they get nothing and risk losing him in 2013.

+1.... Couldn't agree more!

jeff1624 wrote:This thread = TL;DR

If we hit the jackpot and land Davis, no way I trade him to Orlando for Dwight... the Magic for stringing us along. Either they take Lopez and a few picks or they get nothing and risk losing him in 2013.

I'd 100% agree with that

N Ireland Nets wrote:To NyCeEvO

.....

Griffin came into the league with a buzz & in his rookie season (2nd year after injury) he looked like an all star.

Why can't Davis do the same?

Because they're completely opposite players. One has an NBA body and the other doesn't.

Even though Blake has a ways to go on offense, he doesn't just generate all of his points putbacks. He can actually put his back to the basket and make one or two quick moves to get to the basket.

He's extremely athletic and he's much bigger than many other PFs.

He imposes his will on others through strength athleticism.

Davis and Griffin are way, way different.

Where is this comparable offensive repertoire for Davis?
-------
You know why everyone is enamored with PEB? It's not even so much his defense because there are other players that have been averaged blocks like him and have turned out to be nothing.

It's because of his frame. Along with his defensive skills, it looks like his frame is tailor made for adding more weight so that he can handle the guys in the NBA.

Yeah, he's long but when NBA guys start to post him up in the block, what is he going to do?

I'm just floored by the idea that people think he's going to be a super stud right off the bat when he's got almost no offense and needs to put on a lot of weight to be ready for the NBA.

He's not Kevin Durant. He can't be bailed out by shooting long 2s and 3s.

He's a PF/C and a very skinny one at that.

We'll have to wait a while before that, but the fact that people think that he can have a Griffin-like impact, putting up 20/10 numbers in his rookie year with no NBA ready offensive skill is just mind-blowing.

N Ireland Nets wrote:

jeff1624 wrote:This thread = TL;DR

If we hit the jackpot and land Davis, no way I trade him to Orlando for Dwight... the Magic for stringing us along. Either they take Lopez and a few picks or they get nothing and risk losing him in 2013.

I'd 100% agree with that

And I basically said the same thing.

NyCeEvO wrote:

N Ireland Nets wrote:To NyCeEvO

.....

Griffin came into the league with a buzz & in his rookie season (2nd year after injury) he looked like an all star.

Why can't Davis do the same?

Because they're completely opposite players. One has an NBA body and the other doesn't.

Even though Blake has a ways to go on offense, he doesn't just generate all of his points putbacks. He can actually put his back to the basket and make one or two quick moves to get to the basket.

He's extremely athletic and he's much bigger than many other PFs.

He imposes his will on others through strength athleticism.

Davis and Griffin are way, way different.

Where is this comparable offensive repertoire for Davis?

We'll have to wait a while before that, but the fact that people think that he can have a Griffin-like impact, putting up 20/10 numbers in his rookie year with no NBA ready offensive skill is just mind-blowing.

Griffin is a very poor defender because he has short arms. He is very good offensively but the difference between Davis and Griffin is Davis will develope weight and bulk to add to his frame and his offence will become very good where as Griffin will struggle to become a top defender. You forget he basically does exactly what he is told to do in the Kentucky system and that is be the 5th option on their offence. When the workouts come around and people realise that he has a decent jump shot etc it's over. He has a decent percentage on his free throws and obviously will get better. But I've seen him quite a few times take mid range shots in the last couple of seconds on the shot clock and his jumper looks good. He is a complete and utter stud on defence right now and will make a difference in the NBA as a rookie on defence even thought he will get pushed around quite a bit like Howard did coming out of high school.

I never meant Davis will put up 20/10 numbers, I highly doubt it but he will be a very good player instantly in the league and obviously throughout the season get better and then in the years to come develope into a star. But I honestly believe you are underestimating Davis here. If he joined us and D Will resigned he would be our 5th option on offence and would work hard on the boards and defend on defence. Im not saying he will come in and change everything but he will be NBA starter material easily in his rookie year from day 1. He wouldnt be asked to do much on offence with Lopez, Williams, Wallace and Brooks about. Plus Davis's basketball iq is very high and he is a very good passer. It would be unreal if we were lucky enough to draft Davis and would change how Brooklyn will be viewed from day 1 even if D Will left because as sad as it is he would give us hope.

I just think you believe it will take something like 4 years for him to be effective when I believe he can come in and make a difference on the Nets from day 1 and obviously improve dramatically over time.

Im going to stick my neck out that Davis in his rookie year will average 10/10 for the season. He's a very good rebounder and will be able to get 5 buckets a game with put backs or easy baskets. Im so excited to see him in the NBA, he will be that good. Im just praying he is in the NBA as a Brooklyn Net.

I 100% understand your point of view on everything and I know that most people will agree with you but he's a 19 year old phenom that some gm's believe could be HOF material. I just wouldnt be willing to give that up for anything. If Howard wants to be a Net like Jeff said they can take Lopez, Wallace picks or anything outside Williams (if he is staying).

Im sort of going round in circles in these discussions and making little sense, I think I struggle to get my point across a lot of the time

N Ireland Nets wrote:Griffin is a very poor defender because he has short arms. He is very good offensively but the difference between Davis and Griffin is Davis will develope weight and bulk to add to his frame and his offence will become very good where as Griffin will struggle to become a top defender. You forget he basically does exactly what he is told to do in the Kentucky system and that is be the 5th option on their offence. When the workouts come around and people realise that he has a decent jump shot etc it's over. He has a decent percentage on his free throws and obviously will get better. But I've seen him quite a few times take mid range shots in the last couple of seconds on the shot clock and his jumper looks good. He is a complete and utter stud on defence right now and will make a difference in the NBA as a rookie on defence even thought he will get pushed around quite a bit like Howard did coming out of high school.

I never meant Davis will put up 20/10 numbers, I highly doubt it but he will be a very good player instantly in the league and obviously throughout the season get better and then in the years to come develope into a star. But I honestly believe you are underestimating Davis here. If he joined us and D Will resigned he would be our 5th option on offence and would work hard on the boards and defend on defence. Im not saying he will come in and change everything but he will be NBA starter material easily in his rookie year from day 1. He wouldnt be asked to do much on offence with Lopez, Williams, Wallace and Brooks about. Plus Davis's basketball iq is very high and he is a very good passer. It would be unreal if we were lucky enough to draft Davis and would change how Brooklyn will be viewed from day 1 even if D Will left because as sad as it is he would give us hope.

I just think you believe it will take something like 4 years for him to be effective when I believe he can come in and make a difference on the Nets from day 1 and obviously improve dramatically over time.

Im going to stick my neck out that Davis in his rookie year will average 10/10 for the season. He's a very good rebounder and will be able to get 5 buckets a game with put backs or easy baskets. Im so excited to see him in the NBA, he will be that good. Im just praying he is in the NBA as a Brooklyn Net.

I 100% understand your point of view on everything and I know that most people will agree with you but he's a 19 year old phenom that some gm's believe could be HOF material. I just wouldnt be willing to give that up for anything. If Howard wants to be a Net like Jeff said they can take Lopez, Wallace picks or anything outside Williams (if he is staying).

Im sort of going round in circles in these discussions and making little sense, I think I struggle to get my point across a lot of the time

Ok, I think I finally see where you're coming from.

1) I've never said that it would take PEB 3-4 years to become effective. I said that it would take 3-4 years to become a star. Of course, I know that he'd make an immediate difference. However, I want the next 7 years of assured dominance and contender status rather than being playoff bound and unsure of what we're going to do.

I know you like to call it having options, but there will be plenty of options going forward with a D12 and D-Will combination.

I know BK tends to overpay, but at the same time, he knows that neither D-Will nor Dwight would be happy if they have no assets around them to acquire good players.

2)
The question that I'm answering in my mind is "Over the next 5 years, who will give us a better chance to win?"

In my mind, I believe that answer is undoubtedly D12. When we talk about being capped out with D-12 and D-Will, I don't think that would really be the case because we don't have long term contracts. Having D-Will and D12 would take up a considerable amount of cap space, but there would still be a considerable amount of space and exceptions left for us to add pieces.

Look at the Knicks. Both of their stars signed in year one and in year two, they are seen as one of the top destinations for veterans. Vets want to go to NYK. Regardless of how we feel about them, they're stocked with talent.

3) I'm weary of saying anyone is a HOFer before they even step foot in the NBA (e.g. Greg Oden). Personally, I believed that LBJ and KD would be very good just by looking at their skill set. I endorsed Kyrie last year cuz I could just tell from his play that he was going to be a good player.

I do think PEB has the potential to be a very good player, but let's be real here.

He plays at Kentucky on a superstacked team. This mid-range bail out jumper that you refer to is not something that he practices daily. As much as we would like to say that he's decent on offense, he's not. If you think you know before NBA scouts know that PEB has a good jumper, you're wrong.

The fact is that he doesn't even practice that shooting those jumpers. I don't know if you've ever played ball, but you don't just reach a level of offensive skill, put it in the bank for a year as you work on other stuff, and then pick up where you left off.

Any of PEBs offensive skill that he had in high school is subject to supreme rust and a loss in quality simply due to the fact that he's not practicing that stuff. And on top of that, the moves that he was making weren't that great anyway.

Trust me, he will take time to put it together. He'll probably be more effective defensively than Dwight was when he was a rookie. However, you should also remember that Dwight used to play PG in HS like PEB, had a massive growth spurt like PEB, and came in pretty skinny (not as skinny as PEB though).

Yes, Dwight made an immediate impact defensively, but it didn't translate into wins until he grew into having a true big man body and added more to his offense.

You should expect a similar track for PEB. 2-3 years of being a difference maker and the following two years starting to truly become a beast.

As I said before, my outlook is basically over the next 5 years. Having a core of D12 and D-Will instantly puts you on a good track to being a contender and one fringe star player away from serious Finals aspiration. WIth D12 and D-Will, I'm quite certain we'd be serious contenders, and I can't say the same for PEB. Deron needs to be in contending mode asap and over the next 3 years to take advantage of his youth, otherwise we won't really reach contender status.

That's just how I feel...

If your only problem is adding weight, well, I wouldn't even call that a problem.

Ronito wrote:If your only problem is adding weight, well, I wouldn't even call that a problem.

I agree. But he has to add a ton of more offensive skill before we can really start talking about HOF status like what some GMs are apparently saying lol.