Top 25 Players Pt.II - Who's #4?

PetroNet · Post #21 » by **PetroNet** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:06 pm

Chris Paul at #3?

This list is already bogus.

PetroNet · Post #22 » by **PetroNet** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:07 pm

D12 gets my vote

Ronito · Post #23 » by **Ronito** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:08 pm

Yes, Duncan has Parker -- offensively -- he also has to make up for his flaws defensively.

Melo also has Chandler, who has been playing out of his mind.

Post #24 » by **NyCeEvO** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:45 pm

PetroNet wrote:Chris Paul at #3?

This list is already bogus.

Did you vote last time?

I kept it open for a few days and didn't get too many replies towards the end.

PetroNet · Post #25 » by **PetroNet** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:52 pm

NyCeEvO wrote:
PetroNet wrote:Chris Paul at #3?

This list is already bogus.

Did you vote last time?

I kept it open for a few days and didn't get too many replies towards the end.

no i dragged my feet on that one. but ill vote here on out for sure

jeff1624 · Post #26 » by **jeff1624** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:27 pm

Chris Paul is without a doubt a top 5 player in this league... not sure why it's 'bogus' to have him at #3.

I think people get too enamored with ppg and lose sight of the bigger picture. Paul is one of the best leaders and if he were our PG and not deron I'd argue that we'd have the best record in the league. That's not a knock on Deron (well, it sort of is), paul is just that good.

enetric · Post #27 » by **enetric** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:15 am

I brought this over from #3. NYC...can you put me down for my next two? I dont know if I will have time to post in each thread so I may give you a few at a time.

enetric wrote:
Everyone healthy...

3- Paul
4- Wade
5- Kobe

I will get around to putting Dwight's overrated ass in the next 5. While I think guys like Shaq are way too hard on Dwight...its not without merit that there are aspects of his game offensively which should be heavily criticized. Defensively...he is a beast. No argument there.

Footnote: It pains me that I have to move Melo into the next 5 when prior to this year I had him closer to 15. But the Nix are built to his strengths...and he is showing all of them. The reality is underneath it all the ugly Melo is still there. But for now...he deserves a big bump up. Getting a kick DOWN my list? Our very own Dwill. Franchise player MY ASS!

(Yeah...its a hit and run post. But that's all i have time for right now...lol. Enjoy the madness!)

vincecarter4pres wrote:
Agree with you on Melo, but I'll say what I always say. Melo is a guy who's play fluctuates from year to year like no other player in this league(well maybe our very own Deron lol) and there have been times I've had him as high as maybe 6xth best player in the league and there are year's like last season where I had him somewhere in the 14 to 17 range.

Amazingly talented but he doesn't always put pen to paper.

And yeah, right now I'd probably have D Will somewhere in the 15 to 25 range on the season, although he's still a top 8 level talent. I haven't sat there and made a list yet this year, at least since maybe October before the season started, I think I'm just going to go through this with the threads before I make my own all the way through.

Can't agree on Dwight, we never seem to agree on him, you in general seem to be in the ultra small minority on him as a player. Not saying you're wrong, but you pull no punches, you've gone as far as just in the last couple seasons to say he's barely a top 15 player. Personally I just can't agree, although his personality doesn't rub me as a title winner. But then I think back to him carrying a team to the Finals and think if he can simply learn to coexist with other great players and gets back close to 100% health wise we're going to see a period in January or February and forward where the Lakes ripoff a couple double digit win streaks and don't lose more then 2 games in a row more then once again for the rest of the way.

enetric wrote:
All fair...I respect your reply. Agree with you on several points...especially Melo.

I dont recall ever saying Dwight wasnt top 15. I recall a couple of years ago saying that he wasnt making my top 10...but I think I would have had him in my 15 then. He is in my 10 now..not 5 though. Yes, I am in the minority. But to that I say...the guy is overrated. Another very over rated player by fans? Blake Griffin. People love highlight reel bigs. Big strong dudes who throw it down with power that can throw you a gaudy box score from the 4 or 5 spot. Doesnt mean they are the complete package. Understand that I will always be critical of big men who get points that are self contained. That do not translate into easier offense over 48 minutes for their team. I hit your boy Aldrdige for this too. He is better as the #2 guy. As the number 1...we saw it last season the Portland offense got stagnant. When Lillard is hot this season...that team is worlds better. Aldrdige gets his in flow...and Lillard opens it all up for other players.

My beef with Dwight is still the same as it always was. Defensively he is Mutombo level great. A game changer in the middle as a rebounder and shot blocker. But offensively he is at best a Sean Kemp type another very good, all star good big man fans severely overrated. Dwight's game if you really look at it comes up wanting. I dont want to hear about efficiency or PER crap or any other BS. WATCH THE GAME.

While a guy like Shaq is way too harsh on him and I yell at the set when Shaq expects unrealistic achievements from him...some of the specific criticisms are fair.

A big chunk of his offense comes off put backs. He is not a play starter as in a go to big man. His post game is poor. More than 2 dribbles he is a TO machine. And he does a terrible job of seeing the double team, rotating for a better look. As in...unlike a true elite go to big man who makes the game easier for the rest of his teammates...Dwight's teams have thrived most when they have exaggerated and abused all concepts of 3 point shooting around him...sacrificing drive and kick penetration. Instead of him making those around him better...those around him need to keep the D away to make his life easier. Its a major flaw in his offensive game. MAJOR. And that is where if you really look you will realize that he is no where near a great go to first option big man.

He can put up the numbers...but this guy is not an elite go to big man. He will take his 10 ft's making half of them. And he will have a high % of made buckets. But strip away the transition dunk or two and the put back shot under the hoop each game...how many actual shots did he create off half court offense for you? How many times did he rotate the ball off the blocks for a better look because the D was forced to adjust its coverage after he made 2-3 great moves in a row? You dont see that when you watch him play because he doesnt have that complete true big man's offensive game.

More specifically this guy aint Shaq. The comparisons begin and end with...same nickname, and sucky ft shooter. THE END. Shaq, TD, KG, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing? WORLDS better players than this guy. NOT CLOSE.

He is the best overall center in the game because of his D...but overall he is the best of a lot of mediocrity at this position in the league at this time. That's why I cant take him over an all around stud of a player in CP3. Or Durant, and of course LBJ who to me is simply all world elite all time greatness. Obviously...rings are needed to complete the legacy...but he is the best player we have seen since Shaq in his prime and the best perimeter player I have ever seen not named MJ. And if he is able to overcome and beat all challengers for a few years...I may have to move him ahead of Shaq as well.

After the top 3 of the moment...there are several guys who can contend for the 4th spot. I dont know how you cant put Dwight over his teammate Kobe. Kobe is having a great year that yes I agree...is masking a bit of decline...but still you can certainly watch this team and you know without question who the best player is. I have put Wade in recent years ahead of Kobe...but this year so far...its a joke. Its Kobe by a mile. Overall, Wade as his best...yeah I take him over Dwight.

Then I start to consider Dwight in my next 5. Maybe 6...but not 3-5. Just cant see how to put him there over these other guys when its more of a defensive greatness and an offensive mediocrity. Scoring total points isnt enough. Its how you create for the rest of your team that matters. He isnt among that level of great big men we have seen over the last 25 years. For me...over all things I value and respect its the ability to make others better from your position. A center doesnt have to do it the way a PG does. But there are ways a big man does more than his 20-25 points. The great players impact possession after possession one way or the other. SOme people give more respect to the guy who can take over the game and finish in the last 2 minutes. Not me. I prioritize the guys who impact everyone and everything at all times even if they are ice cold with their shot. Give me MJ, Kidd, KG, LBJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Stockton, Barkley. These are the types of guys that blow me away. All different positions but on the floor they impacted everything happening play after play. There are many others and some better than some of the guys I mentioned all time...but just wanted to explain what I think impacts winning the most. Its the guy who impacts others play after play.

Post #28 » by **NyCeEvO** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:09 pm

PetroNet wrote:
NyCeEvO wrote:
PetroNet wrote:Chris Paul at #3?

This list is already bogus.

Did you vote last time?

I kept it open for a few days and didn't get too many replies towards the end.

no i dragged my feet on that one. but ill vote here on out for sure

Alright...cool.

@E - I'll make sure to mark your votes down.

Post #29 » by **NyCeEvO** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:11 pm

jerseyjac wrote:NyCe, doesn't your vote count?

Whoops...

It's been counted now lol.

Stone · Post #30 » by **Stone** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:25 pm

Kobe

Why?......Proven leadership,.... BBIQ second to none (read NYC's Kobe assist thread on the next page, the guy know that even if his shot is going to drop he'll take it anyway knowing he has numbers underneath to grab the board),.... Best one on one guy in the league...On the other side of the court you have a great defender....Heart, hunger.......5 rings.........

The Lakers slow start reminds me of the Heat when LBJ got there, give these guys some time to gel and its going to be a different story......I believe we will see the Lakers in the finals this June.

NjNeTs1029 · Post #31 » by **NjNeTs1029** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:31 pm

I'm going with Melo here. If we're basing this list off right now then I think you have to put him in the top 5. He's been great so far this year.

Post #32 » by **jerseyjac** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:49 pm

enetric wrote:I brought this over from #3. NYC...can you put me down for my next two? I dont know if I will have time to post in each thread so I may give you a few at a time.

I will get around to putting Dwight's overrated ass in the next 5. While I think guys like Shaq are way too hard on Dwight...its not without merit that there are aspects of his game offensively which should be heavily criticized. Defensively...he is a beast. No argument there.

Footnote: It pains me that I have to move Melo into the next 5 when prior to this year I had him closer to 15. But the Nix are built to his strengths...and he is showing all of them. The reality is underneath it all the ugly Melo is still there. But for now...he deserves a big bump up. Getting a kick DOWN my list? Our very own Dwill. Franchise player MY ASS!

(Yeah...its a hit and run post. But that's all i have time for right now...lol. Enjoy the madness!)

NYK_89 · Post #33 » by **NYK_89** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:08 pm

Stone wrote:Kobe

Why?......Proven leadership,.... BBIQ second to none (read NYC's Kobe assist thread on the next page, the guy know that even if his shot is going to drop he'll take it anyway knowing he has numbers underneath to grab the board),.... Best one on one guy in the league...On the other side of the court you have a great defender....Heart, hunger.......5 rings.........

The Lakers slow start reminds me of the Heat when LBJ got there, give these guys some time to gel and its going to be a different story......I believe we will see the Lakers in the finals this June.

That comparison is getting weaker and weaker every day. The heat still beat up on bad teams in that stretch and lost to teams like Boston(2x) Memphis Utah(exploits their huge weakness) Dallas(eventual world champions) NO (still had CP3) Orlando and a few other top teams, in fact looking at it now it looks like EVERY SINGLE TEAM THEY LOST TO WAS A PLAYOFF TEAM THAT YEAR.

Meanwhile after the 9-8 start they went on a scorching 13 game win streak, lost by 2 to the mavs, then went on another 10 game win streak

I get the comparison because yeah the lakers are still ultra talented and should get way better, but their performance so far this year makes the '10 Heat look like the '96 Bulls

rj2496 · Post #34 » by **rj2496** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:30 pm

Picked Dwight for the 3rd spot, so I'm picking him for the 4th.

enetric · Post #35 » by **enetric** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:09 pm

Stone wrote:Kobe

Why?......Proven leadership,.... BBIQ second to none (read NYC's Kobe assist thread on the next page, the guy know that even if his shot is going to drop he'll take it anyway knowing he has numbers underneath to grab the board),.... Best one on one guy in the league...On the other side of the court you have a great defender....Heart, hunger.......5 rings.........

The Lakers slow start reminds me of the Heat when LBJ got there, give these guys some time to gel and its going to be a different story......I believe we will see the Lakers in the finals this June.

I actually think Kobe';s BBIQ is not as high as it should be. In fact I might say that is my biggest knock on him. Maybe a better way to put it...Kobe will do less of what he should for the sake of Kobe doing what Kobe wants to do.

Great IQ is reactionary. Its an instinct that says...this is what I SHOULD be doing at this point of the game against this team. For his entire career as great a talent as he is...Kobe DECIDES when he will play that so called great D. He decides when he will be a playmaker for others. He decides...to sulk for half a game because someone criticized anything about him and then says in the second half...now what do you think.

The guy can do it all. But his choices have never shown me elite BBIQ. Kobe makes my top 15 NBA players all time. He isnt making my top 10 and big part of it is because of this.

JoseRizal · Post #36 » by **JoseRizal** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:30 am

For this season, I'll vote for Duncan. Dude has been ballin' like it's early 2000...

JMaine518 · Post #37 » by **JMaine518** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:22 am

Melo!!!!

MSG · Post #38 » by **MSG** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:47 pm

Knicks fan here.

I'll go with Melo. I might be a little bit biased but he's played great so far. His team is 18-6 and he's been beasting offensively and his defense is improved as well.
Knicks offense looks much weaker when he's not on the floor (they struggled in losses against the Rockets and the Bulls,they turned what should have been a blowout against the Lakers into a close game as soon as he left the game because of injury...).

Kobe and Dwight have a poor record while I think the Spurs without Duncan would do better than the Knicks without Melo.

vincecarter4pres · Post #39 » by **vincecarter4pres** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:25 pm

Let me also make one thing clear, I don't think it's necessarily homerish or even wrong at all to vote Melo here.

I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't argue against it too adamantly. He's been straight ballin' this year. Probably the best ball of his career overall, although in truth a lot of that simply has to do with his jumper falling from nearly everywhere, which I think will come back down just a touch. Enough where it lands him somewhere in the 5th to 10th best player range by season's end.

Post #40 » by **jerseyjac** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:29 pm

vincecarter4pres wrote:Let me also make one thing clear, I don't think it's necessarily homerish or even wrong at all to vote Melo here.

I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't argue against it too adamantly. He's been straight ballin' this year. Probably the best ball of his career overall, although in truth a lot of that simply has to do with his jumper falling from nearly everywhere, which I think will come back down just a touch. Enough where it lands him somewhere in the 5th to 10th best player range by season's end.

Honestly, I would of never thought of him there, maybe 5...if he can sustain this play, come back from injuries like he has and ring off the next couple years in the same fashion he'll be a legit top 5, period...I based my 4 spot off the dramatic changes he has made as a player...stuff that doesn't show up in the stat sheet...the dude is not only balling on both sides of the floor he is leading and his team is rallying around him...Of course it helps Woodson is the coach on top of the Kidd/Felton effect...

As much as TD is balling as well, I do not know how long it lasts, and I still feel despite how well he is playing other players are having a bigger impact on their team...but he is up there