RealGM

Who's #21?

***Voting Deadline: Saturday 12pm***

Top 25 Players Pt.II
1) LBJ
2) KD
3) CP3
4) D12
5) TD
6) Harden
7) Curry
8) Melo
9) Kobe
10) TP
--------------------------------
11) D-Wade
12) D-Will
13) Dirk
14) Westbrook
15) D-Rose
16) M.Gasol
17) Love
18) LMA
19) Noah
20) Lopez

Bosh?



Griffin?


Horford?



KG?



Kyrie?



Pierce?




Bosh -
Griffin -
Horford -
KG -
Kyrie -
Pierce -


Nominees: Hibbert, Rondo

Vote: Kevin Garnett

Vote: Blake Griffin. Think his game is very underrated as he's not a bad defender and his post game is very solid. Best per 36 #'s and PER of his career last year, his coach just cut back on the star's minutes.

Nominate: Paul George...did we all just forget about him?

Vote: horford

Nominate: Armon Gilliam

Boarder Patrol wrote:
Nominate: Paul George...did we all just forget about him?

what is there to forget?

His 41% shooting? His 3 turnovers a game? His 53 TS%? His 16 PER?

George is a really solid up and coming player. But he isnt a top 25 player. More top 40-50. He is insanely overhyped because indiana took the heat to 7 games. He was very ordinary on the season as a whole. He wasnt in that late tier of wings last season such as pierce.

basically the top 25 is rounded out by guys already on the list above.

DrazenForThree wrote:

Boarder Patrol wrote:
Nominate: Paul George...did we all just forget about him?

what is there to forget?

His 41% shooting? His 3 turnovers a game? His 53 TS%? His 16 PER?

George is a really solid up and coming player. But he isnt a top 25 player. More top 40-50. He is insanely overhyped because indiana took the heat to 7 games. He was very ordinary on the season as a whole. He wasnt in that late tier of wings last season such as pierce.

basically the top 25 is rounded out by guys already on the list above.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.

George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.

And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)

Boarder Patrol wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.

Thats correct. and still stands that he isnt a top 25 player. He is a really average offensive player. even with improvement he isnt really a big offensive asset to a team. outside of solid 3 point shooting he really doesnt add a ton on that end. super ineffecienct scoring and sloppy ball handling.

George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.

Even in his prior 2 seasons he wasnt efficient offensively. he was still in the 54% range TS% and had a 16 PER. he was never better then ordinary offensively. Also, everyone who will make this top 25 list IS a primary option OR would/have handled being the primary option much better. Again, its no knock on george, just because you arent a top 25-30 player doesnt mean you suck.

And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)

17 PER is still pretty average, so that doenst matter much. 17-4 dont really mean much either since:

1) his 17 points came on horrible efficency

2) his 4 assists came along with 3 turnovers

his defense is excellent, but his offense is just plain average, and projects to be not much better then average. and while thats still really good overall, it simply isnt top 25. he shouldnt be in the conversation.

Going to say Griffin as my vote and Rondo as my nomination.

Pierce!!!!!

Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).

Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.

NyCeEvO wrote:Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).

Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.

What do you mean active? I mean Rose is not "active" yet since he has not played yet. Rondo and Kobe are both injured to start the season, but both are expected to make recoveries.

Kobe is already on the list.

nykballa2k4 wrote:

NyCeEvO wrote:Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).

Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.

What do you mean active? I mean Rose is not "active" yet since he has not played yet. Rondo and Kobe are both injured to start the season, but both are expected to make recoveries.

Kobe is already on the list.

My bad.

Most people put their votes and nominations in two separate lines and therefore I forgot/didn't see your Rondo nomination.

I'll put both Rondo and George in the next round.

It makes me sad Lopez came in this late, although looking at the rankings the only one that strikes me as awful is Noah.

I'm a big proponent of sometimes there being outliers, intangibles so strong, defense which is hard to quantify and plain old results in the form of wins and losses, even though at heart I'm a lower level stat geek... But... Well wait, let me get this out of the way first.... I am actually quite the fan of Noah as an in general and especially in relation to the specific things I've said above... But... I not only feel it's a little crazy to rank him directly above Lopez, but to have him anywhere in the top 30.

Now I think he's close to the literal last spot of said range, with some argument, but seriously?

Maybe this is just a player I have a big time differing of opinion on, but I'm sorry, I just can't feel that lofty ranking.


I get he's the heart and soul.

I get he's a great team/helpside defender/shot blocker with great hands and awareness when not asked to man up the best opposing big who happens to be a great offensive player.

I get he can pass great. Although under normal circumstances him and a similar player to him in Al Horford(who I feel is actually better overall and provides more impact), when in the playoffs or true pressure games you can play off him so hard this ability shrinks for most possessions besides broken plays and even quick opportunistic strikes you can't purposely run for them, this strength becomes a simple occasionally exploited add on.

I get he can block shots and guard the pick and roll, yet he's claimed as a defensive anchor and great man defender who can guard anyone in the post, yet this isn't true and he struggles versus other high level big men, both one on one self creators and stars who kill it given space and are fed the ball even though he's claimed as a stopper.

Noah is still awesome, the above is not meant to tear him down, but his limits are vast. He's incredibly overrated in the sense of an individual player.

He is the absolute perfect glue guy and 1a or more so 1b leader, which means a lot, which is combined with his actual basketball skills is why he should be a lock top 40 player and probably right around the extremely late 20's to early 30's...

But top 20?

Above some of the guys yet to be named, let alone a young rising stud he's directly one above?

I cannot buy it.

As a straight crude example/analogy, put Noah directly in Lopez's spot on that 12 win team... at best I think you see the same record. At worst, 3 or 4 games worse for an incomparable, unbreakable negative record and maybe something that crushes his psyche to where he loses some of the intangibles that make him who he is.

DrazenForThree wrote:

Boarder Patrol wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.

Thats correct. and still stands that he isnt a top 25 player. He is a really average offensive player. even with improvement he isnt really a big offensive asset to a team. outside of solid 3 point shooting he really doesnt add a ton on that end. super ineffecienct scoring and sloppy ball handling.

George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.

Even in his prior 2 seasons he wasnt efficient offensively. he was still in the 54% range TS% and had a 16 PER. he was never better then ordinary offensively. Also, everyone who will make this top 25 list IS a primary option OR would/have handled being the primary option much better. Again, its no knock on george, just because you arent a top 25-30 player doesnt mean you suck.

And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)

17 PER is still pretty average, so that doenst matter much. 17-4 dont really mean much either since:

1) his 17 points came on horrible efficency

2) his 4 assists came along with 3 turnovers

his defense is excellent, but his offense is just plain average, and projects to be not much better then average. and while thats still really good overall, it simply isnt top 25. he shouldnt be in the conversation.

Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?

daschysta wrote:

DrazenForThree wrote:

Boarder Patrol wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this list supposed to be a combination of how they played this year and how they can be reasonably expected to play this coming season? That's why Harden and Curry are as high as they are, they had great years, but not #6/#7 in the league best.

Thats correct. and still stands that he isnt a top 25 player. He is a really average offensive player. even with improvement he isnt really a big offensive asset to a team. outside of solid 3 point shooting he really doesnt add a ton on that end. super ineffecienct scoring and sloppy ball handling.

George was forced into being the #1 option on a team with no other perimeter threat and one other offensive player in West. Efficiency declines with an increased role. If he were the rightful #2 option which you'd expect had Granger been healthy, it's reasonable to assume his shooting numbers would be around 45% like his other years.

Even in his prior 2 seasons he wasnt efficient offensively. he was still in the 54% range TS% and had a 16 PER. he was never better then ordinary offensively. Also, everyone who will make this top 25 list IS a primary option OR would/have handled being the primary option much better. Again, its no knock on george, just because you arent a top 25-30 player doesnt mean you suck.

And this all not even mentioning that he has some of the league's best defense and averages 17-8-4. If this list is including both this last year and how some players are expected to decline/improve, then you include George. His scoring, rebounding and assist numbers should all go up as they have every year. (His PER was actually seventeen by the way, it's one point but it matters, and he shot 42%)

17 PER is still pretty average, so that doenst matter much. 17-4 dont really mean much either since:

1) his 17 points came on horrible efficency

2) his 4 assists came along with 3 turnovers

his defense is excellent, but his offense is just plain average, and projects to be not much better then average. and while thats still really good overall, it simply isnt top 25. he shouldnt be in the conversation.

Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?

I'd also have George above Noah and top 30.

I was/am a huge George fan, I was propping him up before Indy fans heard of Fresno State.

Love his potential.

Love a ton of what he currently does.

He is a beast, but still not a superstar.

Not sure if he's even a star.

His defense is outstanding.

His all around game so nice and the base for a league leading player.

But so was Iggy's. Right now he's a lot closer to Iggy's best seasons then he is to Pippen's prime or a guy like who he's said to be.

His offense is still way too inefficient to be that.

He is not a system player, but he is a player who's weaknesses are masked by system.

I definitely do not think he's anywhere close to a carry a team guy yet. Jury is out if he is ever that. As of now he is an incredible glue guy. He maybe could be the 2nd best player on a title team. He's close to he 2nd best player on a contender. As of now, he's the third best player on a legit contender and the problem is, on the Pacers he's the 2nd, meaning... or more asking the question... no matter how they showed their ass in the playoffs... no matter how well they do this year in the regular season... are they?

NyCeEvO wrote:

nykballa2k4 wrote:

NyCeEvO wrote:Looks like Griffin took this one (although it looks like the offseason doldrums have gotten to most of our regulars too lol).

Since Paul George is the only active player who was nominated, he'll be next in the selection pool.

What do you mean active? I mean Rose is not "active" yet since he has not played yet. Rondo and Kobe are both injured to start the season, but both are expected to make recoveries.

Kobe is already on the list.

My bad.

Most people put their votes and nominations in two separate lines and therefore I forgot/didn't see your Rondo nomination.

I'll put both Rondo and George in the next round.

Thanks bud!

daschysta wrote:

Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?

even if you want to throw away an entire MONTH (which if you do for any player makes them look great) his numbers still are far from elite. Again, no one is saying george is some scrub, he simply isnt top 25 worthy. 54 TS% is certainly not bad, but i mean you look at someone not voted in yet, pierce, and he is at 57%. you look at peirces PER, and its better.

thats not even talking about the wings already voted in like Hardem, James, Wade, Durant, etc... even if you take away that first month, george is simply to inefficient offensively, and the assists, while nice, cant be considered without talking about his poor ball handling and such a high amount of turnovers

George is around 38th in my rankings. id have no issue with him anywhere 30-40. which, as mentioned, is no small feat. but he isnt an elite wing, not close. like VC mentioned, he is closer to iguodala then he is those other guys

vincecarter4pres wrote:It makes me sad Lopez came in this late, although looking at the rankings the only one that strikes me as awful is Noah.

I'm a big proponent of sometimes there being outliers, intangibles so strong, defense which is hard to quantify and plain old results in the form of wins and losses, even though at heart I'm a lower level stat geek... But... Well wait, let me get this out of the way first.... I am actually quite the fan of Noah as an in general and especially in relation to the specific things I've said above... But... I not only feel it's a little crazy to rank him directly above Lopez, but to have him anywhere in the top 30.

Now I think he's close to the literal last spot of said range, with some argument, but seriously?

Maybe this is just a player I have a big time differing of opinion on, but I'm sorry, I just can't feel that lofty ranking.


I get he's the heart and soul.

I get he's a great team/helpside defender/shot blocker with great hands and awareness when not asked to man up the best opposing big who happens to be a great offensive player.

I get he can pass great. Although under normal circumstances him and a similar player to him in Al Horford(who I feel is actually better overall and provides more impact), when in the playoffs or true pressure games you can play off him so hard this ability shrinks for most possessions besides broken plays and even quick opportunistic strikes you can't purposely run for them, this strength becomes a simple occasionally exploited add on.

I get he can block shots and guard the pick and roll, yet he's claimed as a defensive anchor and great man defender who can guard anyone in the post, yet this isn't true and he struggles versus other high level big men, both one on one self creators and stars who kill it given space and are fed the ball even though he's claimed as a stopper.

Noah is still awesome, the above is not meant to tear him down, but his limits are vast. He's incredibly overrated in the sense of an individual player.

He is the absolute perfect glue guy and 1a or more so 1b leader, which means a lot, which is combined with his actual basketball skills is why he should be a lock top 40 player and probably right around the extremely late 20's to early 30's...

But top 20?

Above some of the guys yet to be named, let alone a young rising stud he's directly one above?

I cannot buy it.

As a straight crude example/analogy, put Noah directly in Lopez's spot on that 12 win team... at best I think you see the same record. At worst, 3 or 4 games worse for an incomparable, unbreakable negative record and maybe something that crushes his psyche to where he loses some of the intangibles that make him who he is.

I think Lopez is right where he needs to be. I'd have him just 1 spot lower, as i'd have horford on the list ahead of him as well.

I think noah should be a couple spots higher... and i REALLY disagree that he wouldnt have helped as much or done as much as lopez on that 12 win team. i cant see any team noah is ever on winning less then 25 games. he just brings it every game every minute, is a great leader and just an elite role guy. and ill take an elite role guy over someone who isnt an elite first option type.

I know im not a big lopez guy, but honestly, i dont think you can argue with anyone taking noah over him. i think noah just adds more value to a team, is WAY more consistent, and while he doesnt have as many highs or as big a ceiling, doesnt have nearly as many flaws either.

DrazenForThree wrote:

daschysta wrote:

Georges stats were skewed by his awful first month adjusting to a new role. The next 57 games he was a 18.8 8.1 4.2 player on 54.5% true scoring. Thats not to mention his elite d. He was all nba 3rd team which is a regular season award. Top 40 or 50 are you nuts?

even if you want to throw away an entire MONTH (which if you do for any player makes them look great) his numbers still are far from elite. Again, no one is saying george is some scrub, he simply isnt top 25 worthy. 54 TS% is certainly not bad, but i mean you look at someone not voted in yet, pierce, and he is at 57%. you look at peirces PER, and its better.

thats not even talking about the wings already voted in like Hardem, James, Wade, Durant, etc... even if you take away that first month, george is simply to inefficient offensively, and the assists, while nice, cant be considered without talking about his poor ball handling and such a high amount of turnovers

George is around 38th in my rankings. id have no issue with him anywhere 30-40. which, as mentioned, is no small feat. but he isnt an elite wing, not close. like VC mentioned, he is closer to iguodala then he is those other guys

OT but out of curiosity how does the team that had the 3rd best record in the division and put up a terrific fight against the champs in the conference finals NOT have a top 20 player on their team?

You all want to be pissed about Noah, that's fine, but one of Hibbert or George HAS TO be top 25 (or top 20).

These are fan picks, and we all make mistakes. I would have Rondo top 15 easily. I don't think he is going top 30 on this list. So clearly I must have a bit of a bias