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Kidd recruited Livingston hard last summer so give him credit…the question remains…has Livingston played so well that we won't be able to re-sign him this summer? For all he is doing at this stage of his career, I think it is one of the best stories in the league right now, and very inspiring.

Probably if we gave him the MLE. Though I think King might have to use it on Bogdanovic.

I'm more interested in what Kirilenko is gonna do. It's doubtful he'll pick up his second year option, but man would it be great if he does.

jeff1624 wrote:Probably if we gave him the MLE. Though I think King might have to use it on Bogdanovic.

I'm more interested in what Kirilenko is gonna do. It's doubtful he'll pick up his second year option, but man would it be great if he does.

I think we have AK's early bird rights though.

Shaun may be willing to take a paycut to stay. There's a bunch of weird factors that make it hard to tell though:

1. Shaun Livingston has bounced around minimum salary contracts for a long time - he hasn't made BIG money. I wouldn't blame him for taking the biggest offer regardless of PT or situation.

2. He's playing REALLY well but he's not a guy that can work in any system. He doesn't shoot 3s and he doesn't run the pick and roll very well. He's basically a low volume slasher who can post up smaller guards on offense. He's a proven defender though - even if he can get pushed around, he can guard 3 positions and racks up steals/blocks. Not many teams can afford to consistently play a guard that refuses to shoot 3s. Our lineup and style of play benefits Livingston a lot because he doesn't really have to spot up or create for others.

Basically, his value to other teams may not be that high because of his glaring limitations.

3. Considering he's bounced around the league so often, I think it's fair to say he may want to stay here because we believe in him and Kidd clearly knows how to highlight his strengths. This guy has basically been this good for the last couple years. I saw him do this stuff in Washington before they drafted Wall. Other teams (Washington, Cleveland, Charlotte, etc.) have treated him like a scrub. He may want to reward us but he also may be afraid of going to an unknown situation.

Wouldn't be surprised if we give him the mMLE for 3 years or something.

I'd use the mMLE on Livingston.

I'm wavering on Blatche btw. We have his Bird Rights, which means we can sign him to more money. But he's so up and down, is he even worth it? And it's not like we can sign him to a deal any longer than 2 years after this year, because we're trying to save space for the 2016 offseason. He might get offered a 3 or 4 year deal elsewhere. And he's overall, not all that great of a player, because of the aforementioned up and down play. He'll look great one game, then play like pure trash in another game, and have other games where he's a net zero, but he fluctuates between making horrible plays and making great plays throughout the game. His defense this year has usually been bad though, his effort just hasn't been there, and I can't say that I'm confident that he'll give the effort he needs to if we re-sign him to a deal. Overall, he's not that big of a difference-maker imo, because he's so inconsistent.

But then again, how many better options are out there for a backup C who can step in and give us some spot starts when necessary? How many backup Cs could we get that may not hurt us as much as bad Blatche, but could help us as much as good Blatche? He's worth playing, he just needs to be restrained, and if we could keep him on a 2-year, 10 million dollar deal, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. He would become a nice trade piece after the first year.

I think that should be our goal, to sign/re-sign as many players as possible to 2-year contracts. They become nice expirings during the 2016 season if we needed to shed some salary.

As for Kirilenko, it depends on how we finish this season tbh. If we make a deep run, like say we pull off an upset and get to the conference finals, and show that we still have enough in the tank to make another long-shot run next year, he might stay. But if we fizzle out in round 1, and KG looks done, and nobody knows if we're even going to keep Pierce or not, and we're thinking of just starting over and trade away Deron and Lopez, then I think there's a strong chance he'll either sign for the mMLE with a team that has a stronger chance at winning, like Miami or SA, or he'll sign with a team that has cap space looking to make a playoff push, like Cleveland.

My bet is the surprising production and development from Plumlee makes Blatche expendable.

Johnny Kilroy wrote:Kidd recruited Livingston hard last summer so give him credit…the question remains…has Livingston played so well that we won't be able to re-sign him this summer? For all he is doing at this stage of his career, I think it is one of the best stories in the league right now, and very inspiring.

It's between him, kirilenko, and bogdanovic. only one of them is getting the mMLE. unless AK takes peanuts again. then its between livingston and bogs.

even if KG and pierce walk its unlikely we get under the tax to be able to have the full MLE

MGrand15 wrote:Shaun may be willing to take a paycut to stay. There's a bunch of weird factors that make it hard to tell though:

1. Shaun Livingston has bounced around minimum salary contracts for a long time - he hasn't made BIG money. I wouldn't blame him for taking the biggest offer regardless of PT or situation.

2. He's playing REALLY well but he's not a guy that can work in any system. He doesn't shoot 3s and he doesn't run the pick and roll very well. He's basically a low volume slasher who can post up smaller guards on offense. He's a proven defender though - even if he can get pushed around, he can guard 3 positions and racks up steals/blocks. Not many teams can afford to consistently play a guard that refuses to shoot 3s. Our lineup and style of play benefits Livingston a lot because he doesn't really have to spot up or create for others.

Basically, his value to other teams may not be that high because of his glaring limitations.

Glaring limitations? he shoots it at 55-56 TS%, is a plus defender who can gaurd 3 positions, is an excellent passer and finisher. the only thing he doesnt do is shoot 3's, which doesnt matter for a backup PG who can do all those other things.

Also, it idiotic how overrated floor spacing has become. its important, but you dont need 5 3-point shooters on the floor to have good spacing. Floor balance is just as if not more important. when livingston hits the market he will be the best backup PG available and will get a good offer from several teams

3. Considering he's bounced around the league so often, I think it's fair to say he may want to stay here because we believe in him and Kidd clearly knows how to highlight his strengths. This guy has basically been this good for the last couple years. I saw him do this stuff in Washington before they drafted Wall. Other teams (Washington, Cleveland, Charlotte, etc.) have treated him like a scrub. He may want to reward us but he also may be afraid of going to an unknown situation.

he is going to take the money. he has to. he may not get another shot at a decent contract. its the same thing as gerald green. im sure green would have loved to stay, but he had to take the money

therealbig3 wrote:I'd use the mMLE on Livingston.

I'm wavering on Blatche btw. We have his Bird Rights, which means we can sign him to more money. But he's so up and down, is he even worth it? And it's not like we can sign him to a deal any longer than 2 years after this year, because we're trying to save space for the 2016 offseason. He might get offered a 3 or 4 year deal elsewhere. And he's overall, not all that great of a player, because of the aforementioned up and down play. He'll look great one game, then play like pure trash in another game, and have other games where he's a net zero, but he fluctuates between making horrible plays and making great plays throughout the game. His defense this year has usually been bad though, his effort just hasn't been there, and I can't say that I'm confident that he'll give the effort he needs to if we re-sign him to a deal. Overall, he's not that big of a difference-maker imo, because he's so inconsistent.

blatche is a reserve.... reserve players are up and down. if they werent, they wouldnt be backups. you can count one one hand how many backup bigs arent up and down. and few of them are as good as blatche when he is "up".

that said, its pretty simple, we offer blatche the max that we can offer on a 2 year deal. take it or leave it.

Prokorov wrote:

Johnny Kilroy wrote:Kidd recruited Livingston hard last summer so give him credit…the question remains…has Livingston played so well that we won't be able to re-sign him this summer? For all he is doing at this stage of his career, I think it is one of the best stories in the league right now, and very inspiring.

It's between him, kirilenko, and bogdanovic. only one of them is getting the mMLE. unless AK takes peanuts again. then its between livingston and bogs.

even if KG and pierce walk its unlikely we get under the tax to be able to have the full MLE

I think AK may opt in TBH. His health concerns are real and will scare some teams off. Sure, there will be a team that I can see offering him the full MLE something we don't have, but there will be less demand for him this summer. I believe he likes it here and wants to stay. I think he's made comments along this line.

I'd give the full mMLE to Livingston, which might be enough for him to stay. Bogs has been a little disappointing this year from everything I've read. I was in the camp to trade him if the right offer presented itself. Could you imagine this team if we did trade his rights for Lowry something that was rumored at the time of the Gay trade. This team would be the favorite in its first round matchup and have a much greater chance of pulling an upset after that.

kerry kittles wrote:

Prokorov wrote:

Johnny Kilroy wrote:Kidd recruited Livingston hard last summer so give him credit…the question remains…has Livingston played so well that we won't be able to re-sign him this summer? For all he is doing at this stage of his career, I think it is one of the best stories in the league right now, and very inspiring.

It's between him, kirilenko, and bogdanovic. only one of them is getting the mMLE. unless AK takes peanuts again. then its between livingston and bogs.

even if KG and pierce walk its unlikely we get under the tax to be able to have the full MLE

I think AK may opt in TBH. His health concerns are real and will scare some teams off. Sure, there will be a team that I can see offering him the full MLE something we don't have, but there will be less demand for him this summer. I believe he likes it here and wants to stay. I think he's made comments along this line.

I'd give the full mMLE to Livingston, which might be enough for him to stay. Bogs has been a little disappointing this year from everything I've read. I was in the camp to trade him if the right offer presented itself. Could you imagine this team if we did trade his rights for Lowry something that was rumored at the time of the Gay trade. This team would be the favorite in its first round matchup and have a much greater chance of pulling an upset after that.

i'd prefer bogs to livingston only because i think bogs could still be here and a real part of our rebuild in 2016 just entering his prime with a higher ceiling then livingston. The next 2 years i see us as doormats and a 35-42 win type team. ive pretty much written off those seasons and my hope is to trade whatever salary we can off to position us for 2016 or even an S&T a year earlier.

as a "win now" move livingston i agree is better then bogs. but i think it a pipe dream to think we do anything next season

I read somewhere that Kirilenko was quoted saying "we'll see what will happen after these two years", which implies he's picking up his option. That leaves the mmle open for Livingston.

I hope so, really like him.

Prokorov wrote:

MGrand15 wrote:Shaun may be willing to take a paycut to stay. There's a bunch of weird factors that make it hard to tell though:

1. Shaun Livingston has bounced around minimum salary contracts for a long time - he hasn't made BIG money. I wouldn't blame him for taking the biggest offer regardless of PT or situation.

2. He's playing REALLY well but he's not a guy that can work in any system. He doesn't shoot 3s and he doesn't run the pick and roll very well. He's basically a low volume slasher who can post up smaller guards on offense. He's a proven defender though - even if he can get pushed around, he can guard 3 positions and racks up steals/blocks. Not many teams can afford to consistently play a guard that refuses to shoot 3s. Our lineup and style of play benefits Livingston a lot because he doesn't really have to spot up or create for others.

Basically, his value to other teams may not be that high because of his glaring limitations.

Glaring limitations? he shoots it at 55-56 TS%, is a plus defender who can gaurd 3 positions, is an excellent passer and finisher. the only thing he doesnt do is shoot 3's, which doesnt matter for a backup PG who can do all those other things.

Also, it idiotic how overrated floor spacing has become. its important, but you dont need 5 3-point shooters on the floor to have good spacing. Floor balance is just as if not more important. when livingston hits the market he will be the best backup PG available and will get a good offer from several teams

3. Considering he's bounced around the league so often, I think it's fair to say he may want to stay here because we believe in him and Kidd clearly knows how to highlight his strengths. This guy has basically been this good for the last couple years. I saw him do this stuff in Washington before they drafted Wall. Other teams (Washington, Cleveland, Charlotte, etc.) have treated him like a scrub. He may want to reward us but he also may be afraid of going to an unknown situation.

he is going to take the money. he has to. he may not get another shot at a decent contract. its the same thing as gerald green. im sure green would have loved to stay, but he had to take the money

Yes, Livingston has glaring limitations. They aren't minor flaws. There's a reason why he's been a backup/spot starter guy who's bounced around the league. It's not his injuries.

He can't shoot and he's not that good at running PnRs.

Does he work around these flaws? Yes. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Playing a PG that can neither shoot nor run a pick and roll at a high level requires a lot of flexibility from a coach.

This "floor balance" garbage you've been bringing up in every thread is getting tired. No, 5 3pt shooters is not necessary. No one is saying that. No one has ever said you need 5 long-range shooters. But you need at least 3 long range shooters and atleast 4 mid-range shooters. Anything less is a recipe for disaster (see: our series vs. the Bulls or any of our games against elite teams last year). Anything more is a good thing. Considering Livingston is BARELY a mid-range shooter, he has a much easier time since he constantly plays next to guys that can shoot and create for him. We have the personnel and system to play to his strengths, not every team will. Most teams can't afford to play a guy like that 30+ minutes a game at PG.

Me saying he has glaring limitations doesn't mean he's a bad player. It's a fact. He has limitations (like every player does) but Livingston's are VERY obvious and potentially detrimental to an offense. Not every team is going to value him like we will.

Andrei is not getting a max deal or a big deal; I honestly doubt he's going to leave the Nets.

WhateverBro wrote:I read somewhere that Kirilenko was quoted saying "we'll see what will happen after these two years", which implies he's picking up his option. That leaves the mmle open for Livingston.

Yep. He also mentioned about being the global face of the Nets International brand.

AK and his family seem to love NY too, I don't think he'll want to leave for another team after this season.

John Schuhmann has an interesting article about Livingston and his defensive impact.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2014/03/1 ... -identity/

The most important element of that improved Brooklyn defense is the length of Shaun Livingston, a guy who was signed to be the back-up point guard but who ranks third on the team in minutes and has started every game he’s played (he’s missed one) since … Jan. 1.

It’s more than that. Livingston’s size unlocks everything the Nets do defensively. Without his size and activity, the scheme doesn’t work nearly as well, and the numbers bear that out. The Nets have been 8.5 points per 100 possessions better defensively since Jan. 1 when Livingston has been on the floor.

Goddamn, that's a huge impact for a guard.

Nah, in today's NBA, with how good defenses have become, you pretty much need at least four 3pt shooters, or at minimum, three 3pt shooters and preferably at least one guy who's money from midrange. Floor spacing is not overrated LMAO, it's actually underrated based on what I just read...it is THE most important aspect of good offensive basketball. It can't be understated how necessary it is. And you can't ever have enough floor spacing.

Look at some of the top offenses this year and their starting lineups:

1. Clippers - CP3, Collison, Barnes, Griffin, and Jordan (three 3pt shooters, and a PF who's money from midrange)

2. Blazers - Lillard, Matthews, Batum, LMA, Lopez (three 3pt shooters, and a PF who's money from midrange)

3. Heat - Chalmers, Wade, LeBron, Battier, Bosh (four 3pt shooters)

4. Mavericks - Calderon, Ellis, Marion, Dirk, Dalembert (four 3pt shooters)

5. Thunder - Westbrook, Sef, Durant, Ibaka, Perkins (three 3pt shooters, and a PF who's money from midrange)


Since the New Year, we've had an average 107.6 ORating vs an average 105.9 DRating (+1.7). That's still not as great of an offense as I would expect, but we've been solid offensively since the New Year, which is when we started winning a lot of games and started using this small ball lineup. A +1.7 ORating would be 10th in the league this year, so we've been a top 10 offense since the switch to the smaller lineup. And what have we been using in that lineup?

Deron, Livingston, Johnson, Pierce, Garnett (three 3pt shooters and a C who's money from midrange). We've been having success with Plumlee instead of Garnett, true, but that's a small sample size of games, and I wouldn't expect that to hold up over time, or in a playoff series with better scouting and preparation.

therealbig3 wrote:Nah, in today's NBA, with how good defenses have become, you pretty much need at least four 3pt shooters, or at minimum, three 3pt shooters and preferably at least one guy who's money from midrange. Floor spacing is not overrated LMAO, it's actually underrated based on what I just read...it is THE most important aspect of good offensive basketball. It can't be understated how necessary it is. And you can't ever have enough floor spacing.

Look at some of the top offenses this year and their starting lineups:

1. Clippers - CP3, Collison, Barnes, Griffin, and Jordan (three 3pt shooters, and a PF who's money from midrange)

2. Blazers - Lillard, Matthews, Batum, LMA, Lopez (three 3pt shooters, and a PF who's money from midrange)

3. Heat - Chalmers, Wade, LeBron, Battier, Bosh (four 3pt shooters)

4. Mavericks - Calderon, Ellis, Marion, Dirk, Dalembert (four 3pt shooters)

5. Thunder - Westbrook, Sef, Durant, Ibaka, Perkins (three 3pt shooters, and a PF who's money from midrange)

And we dont have three 3 point shooters and a C who is money from mid range? not to mention livingston himself is pretty damn good from 10-16 feet. floor spacing is important, its overblown though with the thinking that if you have a guy on the floor who isnt a outside shooting threat that it kills your spacing. and floor spacing doesnt mean much without floor balance. floor balance is jsut as if not more important. teams with 0 threat of beating you for a dunk or layup or easier to defend.