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Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:41 pm
by Paradise
Andy Vasquez @andy_vasquez
Joe Johnson says he's still frustrated. Said at 4-2 the Nets "haven't played anybody." Said the team is being "selfish" on offense.
Andy Vasquez @andy_vasquez
Joe Johnson: "I just didn't think as individuals, as players, that we all have each other's back out there. ... My feelings haven't changed"
1:25pm - 11 Nov 14
Andy Vasquez @andy_Vasquez
Joe Johnson: “Offensively guys kind of exhaust their options and then when there’s nothing else for them they’re passing. When they have to."
1:37pm - 11 Nov 14
Andy Vasquez @andy_vasquez
1 more from Joe: "There’s no way you can play like we’ve played. You can’t go out on the road like that...Those will be double-digit losses."
1:58pm - 11 Nov 14
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:07 pm
by jeff1624
I'm seriously confused about Joe's frustration. This is the best our offense has looked since he's gotten here and he leads the team in shots. Bojan was extreely efficient versus Orlando, Brook didn't have many shot attempts, Deron picks his spots more than anyone on the team and KG had 7 assists last night which highlights his unselfishness. Is he talking about Jack and Mirza? They both took very little attempts in the grand scheme of things for him to be this upset.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:11 pm
by N Ireland Nets
I think he is talking about Jack, Plumtree and Lopez. Just some players who don't know when to pass or what a bad shot is.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:12 pm
by lkitt0804
jeff1624 wrote:I'm seriously confused about Joe's frustration. This is the best our offense has looked since he's gotten here and he leads the team in shots. Bojan was extreely efficient versus Orlando, Brook didn't have many shot attempts, Deron picks his spots more than anyone on the team and KG had 7 assists last night which highlights his unselfishness. Is he talking about Jack and Mirza? They both took very little attempts in the grand scheme of things for him to be this upset.
I wonder if Hollins had anything to do with this. Maybe trying to get Joe to be more of a vocal leader that the team needs. Hopefully we respond well and go 2-1 or 3-0 on this trip.
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Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:18 pm
by Lamak
N Ireland Nets wrote:I think he is talking about Jack, Plumtree and Lopez. Just some players who don't know when to pass or what a bad shot is.
I have to agree with this. All 3 of those guys do have a problem zoning out on trying to score and completely forget about their team. Many Jack pullups, Plumlee trying to blow by dudes or on offensive rebounding, and mostly any Brook Lopez post up.
Still surprised he's this angry though.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:50 pm
by kerry kittles
N Ireland Nets wrote:I think he is talking about Jack, Plumtree and Lopez. Just some players who don't know when to pass or what a bad shot is.
Yes, those 3 are the chief culprits, but I guess it is maybe worth noting Joe does lead the team in FGA as Bondy mentioned though he is efficient, 57 TS %, and 2nd on the team in apg behind at 3.8 - two points Bondy failed to mention. Plus Joe has the right to take shots late in the game - so i'm not holding him accountable for being selfish in his own regard something Bondy implied.
Now, yes RE those three:
Lopez - like Bondy did correctly point out, has just one assist this season. That's unacceptable. He was really forcing it in the 1st quarter of the Timberwolves game, plus later that game, and at other moments this season.
Jack - definitely shotjacking. The long 2's early in the shotclock are killers. We can definitely get better looks than that and those are the worst shots in the game. He's been inefficient - 50.4 TS%.
Plumlee - needs to stick to what he did last year and just be an option around the hoop for lobs, drop offs, put backs, etc. All his offense should come around the rim and be assisted. He's forcing too much to prove that he developed an offensive game in the offseason and looking to post players and things like that when his game isn't that. He went from a TS% of 67% last year to 52% this year.
Like I said on the Orlando GT though I think more of our issues are defensively. We let up 100 to the Celtics in 3 quarters and allowed 20 to the Wolves in the final half of the 4th.
This is definitely rare from Joe Cool who hasn't been the most vocal guy during his tenure here.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:50 pm
by NyCeEvO
N Ireland Nets wrote:I think he is talking about Jack, Plumtree and Lopez. Just some players who don't know when to pass or what a bad shot is.
NIN sighting!!
Yeah, and I think the it lies even more so on Jack and Lopez.
I haven't watched every minute of all the games but I've already seen Jack take 2 fastbreak pullup jumpshot and 1 fastbreak layup when he didn't have the advantage. It's just low BBIQ to basically throwaway a possession just because you're "feeling it" on a fastbreak.
On one hand I can't blame Lopez because he's never been a passer and is not good at reading the defense to see when he should pass or draw the double then pass. At the same time, those are things that I've always got on him about but have grown tired of discussing.
It'll be interesting to see what happens as the season progresses. If Lopez continues to draw the ire of Hollins and other players like JJ, I wonder if BK will start to make phone calls.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:53 pm
by Palmeirense
Meh, i like the fact that Joe is being vocal and trying to embrace a leadership row, i just don't see these coments being valid, though, i think the offense is fine.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:00 pm
by NyCeEvO
kerry kittles wrote:Plumlee - needs to stick to what he did last year and just be an option around the hoop for lobs, drop offs, put backs, etc. All his offense should come around the rim and be assisted. He's forcing too much to prove that he developed an offensive game in the offseason and looking to post players and things like that when his game isn't that. He went from a TS% of 67% last year to 52% this year.
It's not going to happen.
I've been saying it ever since we hired Hollins. Hollins talked about the need for Mason to develop postmoves and hookshots (a la Marc Gasol) and if he doesn't he won't get playing time.
This is the only facet of Hollins coaching that I disagree with. Plumlee doesn't have the skills of Marc and Hollins needs to stop forcing him to try to be like Marc.
Plumlee had such a high TS% last year because Kidd tried to use him like Tyson Chandler in Dallas and New York. The only "shots" he got were lobs and putbacks.
Hollins has taken that aspect out of the gameplan and the only way for Plumlee to play is to force these shots that he's not comfortable since Hollins won't play him if he doesn't try. It's a shame but I place most of the blame for Tyson's offensive woes on Hollins because we're not playing Plumlee to his strengths.
A related but secondary question is how much of our system should be tailored to a backup sophomore C and whether you believe the gameplan Mason played well under last season was conducive to winning basketball. These are questions/issues that we have to think about when discussing Plumlee from last year vs. Plumlee from this year because they will not show up in the stat sheet.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:01 pm
by MGrand15
He said he's talking about offense AND defense.
I think what he's saying is fair. You look at Lopez getting burned by Vucevic and don't think of it as selfish. But he wasn't playing up on him because he didn't trust his help defense if Nikola drove by him. Mason left Frye open for 3 a bunch of times because he didn't trust help defense to come. It happened OVER and OVER defensively. It"s why we kept getting burned by open shots.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:05 pm
by jbeachboy
Hopefully more team play, need more practices, guys dont know when to pass
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:24 pm
by MGrand15
NyCeEvO wrote:kerry kittles wrote:Plumlee - needs to stick to what he did last year and just be an option around the hoop for lobs, drop offs, put backs, etc. All his offense should come around the rim and be assisted. He's forcing too much to prove that he developed an offensive game in the offseason and looking to post players and things like that when his game isn't that. He went from a TS% of 67% last year to 52% this year.
It's not going to happen.
I've been saying it ever since we hired Hollins. Hollins talked about the need for Mason to develop postmoves and hookshots (a la Marc Gasol) and if he doesn't he won't get playing time.
This is the only facet of Hollins coaching that I disagree with. Plumlee doesn't have the skills of Marc and Hollins needs to stop forcing him to try to be like Marc.
Plumlee had such a high TS% last year because Kidd tried to use him like Tyson Chandler in Dallas and New York. The only "shots" he got were lobs and putbacks.
Hollins has taken that aspect out of the gameplan and the only way for Plumlee to play is to force these shots that he's not comfortable since Hollins won't play him if he doesn't try. It's a shame but I place most of the blame for Tyson's offensive woes on Hollins because we're not playing Plumlee to his strengths.
A related but secondary question is how much of our system should be tailored to a backup sophomore C and whether you believe the gameplan Mason played well under last season was conducive to winning basketball. These are questions/issues that we have to think about when discussing Plumlee from last year vs. Plumlee from this year because they will not show up in the stat sheet.
Plumlee is still put in many PNRs and often surrounded by 4 shooters. I don't think Hollins is telling him to shoot contested hook shots. Or shots while double teamed. Sure, Hollins gave him the green light to post up more than Kidd but I wouldnt put this all on him. Mason is taking bad shots, turning it over, playing bad defense and not rebounding. Plumlee's TS% of 52.5% is downright terrible. It's early but Mason's got to chill.
Your 2nd question is a little confusing. Our system wasn't tailored to Plumlee last year. He was limited by Kidd. Not ideal if Plumlee is playing 40 minutes a game but definitely smart if he's only playing 18 minutes a game. He's not a good jump shooter or a good post up player, so it forced him to focus on what he's good at. Rolls, cuts, offensive boards, fast break buckets. Splitter did the same thing for the Spurs last year. Chris Anderson for the Heat the year before. Tyson Chandler for the Championship Mavs.
Post ups are generally VERY inefficient shots unless you're really good at it. Mason isn't good at it. He should reserve it for mismatches, when he's deep in the paint (not 15 feet and out) and late in shot clock times.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:31 pm
by Prokorov
jeff1624 wrote:I'm seriously confused about Joe's frustration. This is the best our offense has looked since he's gotten here and he leads the team in shots. Bojan was extreely efficient versus Orlando, Brook didn't have many shot attempts, Deron picks his spots more than anyone on the team and KG had 7 assists last night which highlights his unselfishness. Is he talking about Jack and Mirza? They both took very little attempts in the grand scheme of things for him to be this upset.
i dont think our offense has looked great. we have also lost the points in the paint battle in half our games all against terrible teams as joe noted. we are scoring alot, but if you consistently take those shots (long twos, settle for jumpers, shots early in the clock) eventually the numbers are going to flatline and your going to start looking really bad.
Either way, i think his overall point is correct. 4-2 means nothing, and if we go on this road trip and play the same as we have been playing we will come back 4-5.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:38 pm
by Prokorov
kerry kittles wrote:N Ireland Nets wrote:I think he is talking about Jack, Plumtree and Lopez. Just some players who don't know when to pass or what a bad shot is.
Yes, those 3 are the chief culprits, but I guess it is maybe worth noting Joe does lead the team in FGA as Bondy mentioned though he is efficient, 57 TS %, and 2nd on the team in apg behind at 3.8 - two points Bondy failed to mention. Plus Joe has the right to take shots late in the game - so i'm not holding him accountable for being selfish in his own regard something Bondy implied.
Now, yes RE those three:
Lopez - like Bondy did correctly point out, has just one assist this season. That's unacceptable. He was really forcing it in the 1st quarter of the Timberwolves game, plus later that game, and at other moments this season.
Jack - definitely shotjacking. The long 2's early in the shotclock are killers. We can definitely get better looks than that and those are the worst shots in the game. He's been inefficient - 50.4 TS%.
Plumlee - needs to stick to what he did last year and just be an option around the hoop for lobs, drop offs, put backs, etc. All his offense should come around the rim and be assisted. He's forcing too much to prove that he developed an offensive game in the offseason and looking to post players and things like that when his game isn't that. He went from a TS% of 67% last year to 52% this year.
Like I said on the Orlando GT though I think more of our issues are defensively. We let up 100 to the Celtics in 3 quarters and allowed 20 to the Wolves in the final half of the 4th.
This is definitely rare from Joe Cool who hasn't been the most vocal guy during his tenure here.
pretty much spot on.... although i disagree that we have bigger issues defensively... i think its both ends and particularly on the celtics end bad offense led to easy scores for boston. wolves as well, bad offense/turnovers bailed them out
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:54 pm
by halfHAVOC
Shots fired at Lopez for taking terrible forced shots. And also Jack taking some dumb shots
Anytime Joe gets mad or frustrated he usually has a reason, otherwise he's very calm so when he lights a fire its good because if he doesn't call it out nobody will.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:02 pm
by jeff1624
Prokorov wrote:jeff1624 wrote:I'm seriously confused about Joe's frustration. This is the best our offense has looked since he's gotten here and he leads the team in shots. Bojan was extreely efficient versus Orlando, Brook didn't have many shot attempts, Deron picks his spots more than anyone on the team and KG had 7 assists last night which highlights his unselfishness. Is he talking about Jack and Mirza? They both took very little attempts in the grand scheme of things for him to be this upset.
i dont think our offense has looked great. we have also lost the points in the paint battle in half our games all against terrible teams as joe noted. we are scoring alot, but if you consistently take those shots (long twos, settle for jumpers, shots early in the clock) eventually the numbers are going to flatline and your going to start looking really bad.
Either way, i think his overall point is correct. 4-2 means nothing, and if we go on this road trip and play the same as we have been playing we will come back 4-5.
The only player that is settling for long twos and taking shots early in the shot clock is Jack. Mirza has the green light to shoot it any time he's open from three and Lopez has barely taken any long twos in the 4 games he's played. The points in the paint is a good argument, but I expect that gap to close once Lopez gets the rust off.
This frustration Joe is demonstrating is odd as hell. He took the most amount of shots versus Orlando and was perhaps the least effective. Besides, he has been the most culpable when it comes to playing iso ball.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:07 pm
by enetric
So the man they call Iso Joe is criticizing people for searching for their own shots and only passing when there's nothing there?
He's not wrong but...
Wait let me go turn up the Michael Jackson music.
I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The Nets
A Better TEAM
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah)
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:21 am
by Paradise
enetric wrote:So the man they call Iso Joe is criticizing people for searching for their own shots and only passing when there's nothing there?
He's not wrong but...
Wait let me go turn up the Michael Jackson music.
I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The Nets
A Better TEAM
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah)
Actually, 22.6% of his offense came in catch and shoot, only 16% were Isolation last season.
Per ESPN NY:
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... rc=desktop
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:22 am
by kerry kittles
MGrand15 wrote:He said he's talking about offense AND defense.
I think what he's saying is fair. You look at Lopez getting burned by Vucevic and don't think of it as selfish. But he wasn't playing up on him because he didn't trust his help defense if Nikola drove by him. Mason left Frye open for 3 a bunch of times because he didn't trust help defense to come. It happened OVER and OVER defensively. It"s why we kept getting burned by open shots.
A couple of the beat writers just mentioned offense so if this is true and I don't doubt that it is then I fully agree. Joe is doing a better job rebounding than he has in his entire career. His apg numbers are the highest they have been since he's been a Net. I personally think his defense is the best it's been since he's been here. Joe has was gassed guarding Melo, you could tell, but he gave 100% effort on the defensive end and was a large reason why Melo was 5/20, why Tobias Harris was 4/13. Joe's really seemed to buy into what Hollins is preaching and if he's getting on his teammates to do the same then I fully agree - he's well within his right to do so. If he wants his team to gang rebound instead of leaking out, to give max effort on the defensive end, to not take inefficient shots early in the shot clock then I fully support everything he is saying.
This west coast trip will be very interesting - hopefully we come together as team and play well.
Re: Joe blasts team effort again
Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:27 am
by kerry kittles
Paradise wrote:enetric wrote:So the man they call Iso Joe is criticizing people for searching for their own shots and only passing when there's nothing there?
He's not wrong but...
Wait let me go turn up the Michael Jackson music.
I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The Nets
A Better TEAM
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah)
Actually, 22.6% of his offense came in catch and shoot, only 16% were Isolation last season.
Per ESPN NY:
http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blog ... rc=desktop
Agreed, Iso Joe is very overblown. He was 2nd overall in hockey assists in the 1st round. He's great at passing out of double teams and if the 1st guy isn't open they start swinging the ball, catch the defense on its heels and someone will make the defense pay. Thornton was a big beneficiary of this in game 7, and when we nearly had one of the biggest comebacks in history in game 5 it was the offense running through Joe. Joe was hitting nearly everything he threw up, but players were getting open looks because of all the defensive attention directed at Joe.