Nets Buyout Joe Johnson (Page 4)

[therealbig3]

He's a very polarizing player that seems to warrant a lot of discussion on our board, so I figured we could have a thread just to discuss Joe Johnson.

IMO, he's been quite disappointing this year. Last year, he seemed to really find his niche as a post-up/catch and shoot SG, and once we started to run the offense through those skills of his and cut down on "ISO Joe", he really flourished towards the end of last year and obviously throughout the playoffs.

This year though, it's been a struggle to watch him play, at least for me, because there have been a lot more "ISO Joe" moments, and a lot less of posting him up and letting him work as an off-ball shooter. And IMO, it's been more on Johnson than the coaching staff really, because he seems to be calling his own number a lot when he really shouldn't be.

I think if Johnson (and our offense in general) could get back to what we were doing last year once we started posting him up more, I think his play will skyrocket (as will his efficiency, which has been down this year). Now, Deron Williams looks a hell of a lot better this year than he did last year, closer to his 2nd half of 2013 self IMO, at least in terms of what he's capable of...and I think Deron Williams is the guy who we should run the offense through in that case...which means posting up Johnson and using him as a shooting threat to space the floor for Deron to create is actually the perfect role for him, because it allows Deron to control the basketball, while Johnson plays off-ball.

[Paradise]

He seems to be really struggling to find his niche with a healthy D-Will and Lopez. If you remember, he had a bad start to the 2012 season when we had Deron and Lopez healthy as well. As the season continues, I expect him to be better offensively. All I want to see is his rebounding, defense and passing be consistent. He's our best wing defender and he has to stay productive when his shots aren't falling,

[Shook Jones]

Trade him. Id take back either Lance Stephenson or Tyreke Evans and Eric Gordon. Joe is a steady player but this team needs some athleticism in the lineup BADLY!!!

[MrDollarBills]

Last two games he's been solid even if the shots aren't falling, he's been active defensively and engaged. That's all I ask.

[Keith Van Horn]

He has been a disappointment so far this season. I want to see him be more dominant. He needs to learn how to coexist with Deron and Lopez. He becomes invisible sometimes way too quickly when the other guys get their game going. He should be contributing a lot more on offense on a regular basis.

I no doubt know he's still an elite player, but he needs to make it known more. If Charlotte called to ask about getting Joe for Stephenson, I would be on the fence about it. Joe plays better when he's option 1-2. With Deron and Lopez doing well, I think he's struggling. But I don't know if that means to give him up for someone else.

The thing is with Lance is that I think he's better as the 2-3 option, and that would be great behind Deron and Lopez. Lance also helps with the future of the team, not to mention his Brooklyn roots. We need to realize too that the 2016 FA is a huge pipedream and we're probably going to overpay for mediocre talent.

Lot's of questions I would be going over now if I were Billy King.

[F3LON]

The Joe Johnson hate make me laugh. Disappointing season?

Pts / 36 min
2013: 17.4
2014: 16.2

FG Attempts/ 36 min
2013: 14.2
2014: 14.2

FG%
2013: 45.4%
2014: 43.6%

3pt Attempts / 36
2013: 5.6
2014: 3.8

FT%
2013: 81.5%
2014: 82%

FT Attempts / 36
2013: 2.7
2014: 3

Asst / 36
2013: 3
2014: 3.9

TO / 36
2013: 1.7
2014: 1.7

Scoring wise JJ has been almost identical to last year. He isnt taking more shots then last year. He is just shooting a lower percentage this year but his FT attempts are up and his 3pt attempts are down which shows he is being more aggressive. He is also creating more offense this year. He is averaging almost a full assist more then last year and it's not coming at the expense of turnovers. Offensively he is playing BETTER IMO.

Defensive Rebounds / 36
2013: 3.1
2014: 4.1

Rebounds / 36
2013: 3.8
2014: 5

His biggest improvement has been on the glass. He is a full rebound better this year.

I hate to kill the fugazee narrative you are trying to imply with this thread but JJ has been playing much better this year then last year.

[King-]

The Joe Johnson hate make me laugh. Disappointing season?

Pts / 36 min
2013: 17.4
2014: 16.2

FG Attempts/ 36 min
2013: 14.2
2014: 14.2

FG%
2013: 45.4%
2014: 43.6%

3pt Attempts / 36
2013: 5.6
2014: 3.8

FT%
2013: 81.5%
2014: 82%

FT Attempts / 36
2013: 2.7
2014: 3

Asst / 36
2013: 3
2014: 3.9

TO / 36
2013: 1.7
2014: 1.7

Scoring wise JJ has been almost identical to last year. He isnt taking more shots then last year. He is just shooting a lower percentage this year but his FT attempts are up and his 3pt attempts are down which shows he is being more aggressive. He is also creating more offense this year. He is averaging almost a full assist more then last year and it's not coming at the expense of turnovers. Offensively he is playing BETTER IMO.

Defensive Rebounds / 36
2013: 3.1
2014: 4.1

Rebounds / 36
2013: 3.8
2014: 5

His biggest improvement has been on the glass. He is a full rebound better this year.

I hate to kill the fugazee narrative you are trying to imply with this thread but JJ has been playing much better this year then last year.

He's averaging 16 points a game in 35 minutes, he's got a 15.86 PER and makes $23 million a year. When his shot has not been falling, a lot of games this season he becomes a complete blackhole on offense and stops ball movement a lot of times and fails to play within the rhythm of the offense.


I'm not saying he's a terrible player and needs to be traded or anything.... but I think some criticism is OKAY for JJ.



I'll say it again.... The team is a couple games behind .500, he's averaging 16 points in 35 minutes and is getting paid $23 million a year and he's been playing selfish at times when his shots not falling. No one is beyond criticism and for a team that's struggled all season, if there's someone who be be criticized, it's the guy with all of those statistical and financial numbers I just posted.


Wake up.

[Prokorov]

He's a very polarizing player that seems to warrant a lot of discussion on our board, so I figured we could have a thread just to discuss Joe Johnson.

IMO, he's been quite disappointing this year. Last year, he seemed to really find his niche as a post-up/catch and shoot SG, and once we started to run the offense through those skills of his and cut down on "ISO Joe", he really flourished towards the end of last year and obviously throughout the playoffs.

This year though, it's been a struggle to watch him play, at least for me, because there have been a lot more "ISO Joe" moments, and a lot less of posting him up and letting him work as an off-ball shooter. And IMO, it's been more on Johnson than the coaching staff really, because he seems to be calling his own number a lot when he really shouldn't be.

I think if Johnson (and our offense in general) could get back to what we were doing last year once we started posting him up more, I think his play will skyrocket (as will his efficiency, which has been down this year). Now, Deron Williams looks a hell of a lot better this year than he did last year, closer to his 2nd half of 2013 self IMO, at least in terms of what he's capable of...and I think Deron Williams is the guy who we should run the offense through in that case...which means posting up Johnson and using him as a shooting threat to space the floor for Deron to create is actually the perfect role for him, because it allows Deron to control the basketball, while Johnson plays off-ball.

i agree he is most effective on post ups or in the pick and roll where when his man trails the screen joe can get him on his back. i dont really see much iso stuff from johnson though. maybe the suns game towards the end. other then that he has basically just worked in the pnr/post or flex cuts on the baseline.

i also like how joe has created offense for teammates. he has led us in assists more then a few times this year.

i think he is a bad fit with lopez, as both work best as post threats to start the offense. i think its no coincidence joes best year was with brook out. i think joe and dwill can work together for sure. im not so sure with brook and joe

[Prokorov]

He has been a disappointment so far this season. I want to see him be more dominant. He needs to learn how to coexist with Deron and Lopez. He becomes invisible sometimes way too quickly when the other guys get their game going. He should be contributing a lot more on offense on a regular basis.

I no doubt know he's still an elite player, but he needs to make it known more. If Charlotte called to ask about getting Joe for Stephenson, I would be on the fence about it. Joe plays better when he's option 1-2. With Deron and Lopez doing well, I think he's struggling. But I don't know if that means to give him up for someone else.

The thing is with Lance is that I think he's better as the 2-3 option, and that would be great behind Deron and Lopez. Lance also helps with the future of the team, not to mention his Brooklyn roots. We need to realize too that the 2016 FA is a huge pipedream and we're probably going to overpay for mediocre talent.

Lot's of questions I would be going over now if I were Billy King.

im a big joe johnson fan... but id deal him for lance for sure. lance is a brooklyn kid and he is tough as nails and is competitive. we need a guy like that. the city would embrace him too

[Prokorov]

The Joe Johnson hate make me laugh. Disappointing season?

Pts / 36 min
2013: 17.4
2014: 16.2

FG Attempts/ 36 min
2013: 14.2
2014: 14.2

FG%
2013: 45.4%
2014: 43.6%

3pt Attempts / 36
2013: 5.6
2014: 3.8

FT%
2013: 81.5%
2014: 82%

FT Attempts / 36
2013: 2.7
2014: 3

Asst / 36
2013: 3
2014: 3.9

TO / 36
2013: 1.7
2014: 1.7

Scoring wise JJ has been almost identical to last year. He isnt taking more shots then last year. He is just shooting a lower percentage this year but his FT attempts are up and his 3pt attempts are down which shows he is being more aggressive. He is also creating more offense this year. He is averaging almost a full assist more then last year and it's not coming at the expense of turnovers. Offensively he is playing BETTER IMO.

Defensive Rebounds / 36
2013: 3.1
2014: 4.1

Rebounds / 36
2013: 3.8
2014: 5

His biggest improvement has been on the glass. He is a full rebound better this year.

I hate to kill the fugazee narrative you are trying to imply with this thread but JJ has been playing much better this year then last year.

i agree.... joe has been good this year. FAR from a disappointment. other then if you disagree with him calling the team out, im not sure what to be disappointed about.

[Prokorov]

He's averaging 16 points a game in 35 minutes, he's got a 15.86 PER and makes $23 million a year. When his shot has not been falling, a lot of games this season he becomes a complete blackhole on offense and stops ball movement a lot of times and fails to play within the rhythm of the offense.

i couldnt possibly disagree more... and pretty much the opposite is true. games joe is off he usually disappears more then become a black hole.. and some of hsi biggest assist games were games where his shot wasnt falling.

salary.... if we go by salary, then 90% of our team is massive disappointments

[SpeedyG]

I think Joe is a disappointment if you compare to Joe in the playoffs. Otherwise, he's the same guy we've seen for the past several years now. Stretches of great play, stretches of OK play when his shot isn't going in.

[kerry kittles]

I think Joe is a disappointment if you compare to Joe in the playoffs. Otherwise, he's the same guy we've seen for the past several years now. Stretches of great play, stretches of OK play when his shot isn't going in.

Agreed, Joe really elevated his play in the post season last year:
21.2 ppg on 62.6 TS%, 20.3 PER.

He took over games, was the 2nd-3rd best play in the Eastern Conference in the playoffs. I think people expected Joe to play like that coming into the season and have been disappointed. Joe hasn't been great overall. He's been much like you mentioned, i just think many people expectations were too high.

[F3LON]

He's averaging 16 points a game in 35 minutes, he's got a 15.86 PER and makes $23 million a year. When his shot has not been falling, a lot of games this season he becomes a complete blackhole on offense and stops ball movement a lot of times and fails to play within the rhythm of the offense.


I'm not saying he's a terrible player and needs to be traded or anything.... but I think some criticism is OKAY for JJ.



I'll say it again.... The team is a couple games behind .500, he's averaging 16 points in 35 minutes and is getting paid $23 million a year and he's been playing selfish at times when his shots not falling. No one is beyond criticism and for a team that's struggled all season, if there's someone who be be criticized, it's the guy with all of those statistical and financial numbers I just posted.


Wake up.

Blackhole who averages close to 4 assists, 6th at his position.

I knew how much JJ made before he was traded here. Im not arguing that he is worth THAT much. But if you are going to mention his salary also mention that removing his salary doesnt benefit the team so why argue a moot point?

The argument is his level of play. He is a 16/5/4 SF, not many of those in the NBA. He is one of the best ISO players in the NBA which is a very valuable skill despite popular opinion. MJ wasnt running the triangle late in the shot clock, he was running ISO.

[NyCeEvO]

Joe Johnson has always been an enigma for me (while on the Nets).

Like Speedy said, there are stretches of good play and stretches of ok, which is what you expect and hope for from one of your top players.

The problem begins to arise when you start to think about his contract in relation to his play.

I know people will say that he didn't give himself the max deal, it was offered to him. Yes, that's true.

However, from the perspective of a team that must obey by CBA rules, you really hope that your 20+mil/year player plays good most of the time and great sometimes. His contract takes up such a huge part of the salary cap space that you want a player who's good enough to make you feel like he's worth that cap space (that you didn't use to sign other players).

There are several $11mil who are playing close enough to JJ's level that it really makes you wonder if it would've been better to have two $11mil guys than JJ, since they would add to the depth and could have a combined impact positive greater than what JJ brings to the table.

When I see that there only 50 players making more than $11mil per year and guys like Steph Curry, Duncan, Derozan, Mike Conley, Monta Ellis, Teague, Dirk, and Pau Gasol make less than 1/2 of what he makes and yet each one of those has significantly higher PERs than Joe, it definitely makes me think about how good of an investment we made in getting him.

It's not his fault that he's paid so much, but his contract takes up so much cap space and plays such a big role in preventing us from being able to sign other players that I can't help but get mad at him when he plays like crap.

[MrDollarBills]

Joe Johnson has always been an enigma for me (while on the Nets).

Like Speedy said, there are stretches of good play and stretches of ok, which is what you expect and hope for from one of your top players.

The problem begins to arise when you start to think about his contract in relation to his play.

I know people will say that he didn't give himself the max deal, it was offered to him. Yes, that's true.

However, from the perspective of a team that must obey by CBA rules, you really hope that your 20+mil/year player plays good most of the time and great sometimes. His contract takes up such a huge part of the salary cap space that you want a player who's good enough to make you feel like he's worth that cap space (that you didn't use to sign other players).

There are several $11mil who are playing close enough to JJ's level that it really makes you wonder if it would've been better to have two $11mil guys than JJ, since they would add to the depth and could have a combined impact positive greater than what JJ brings to the table.

When I see that there only 50 players making more than $11mil per year and guys like Steph Curry, Duncan, Derozan, Mike Conley, Monta Ellis, Teague, Dirk, and Pau Gasol make less than 1/2 of what he makes and yet each one of those has significantly higher PERs than Joe, it definitely makes me think about how good of an investment we made in getting him.

It's not his fault that he's paid so much, but his contract takes up so much cap space and plays such a big role in preventing us from being able to sign other players that I can't help but get mad at him when he plays like crap.

Johnson was always a horrible investment, especially at the cost of pick swaps with a team that beat us down by 30 points.

Hawks have retooled their squad quite well thanks to our help. Meanwhile, we are a sub .500 team

[Prokorov]

Joe Johnson has always been an enigma for me (while on the Nets).

Like Speedy said, there are stretches of good play and stretches of ok, which is what you expect and hope for from one of your top players.

The problem begins to arise when you start to think about his contract in relation to his play.

I know people will say that he didn't give himself the max deal, it was offered to him. Yes, that's true.

However, from the perspective of a team that must obey by CBA rules, you really hope that your 20+mil/year player plays good most of the time and great sometimes. His contract takes up such a huge part of the salary cap space that you want a player who's good enough to make you feel like he's worth that cap space (that you didn't use to sign other players).

There are several $11mil who are playing close enough to JJ's level that it really makes you wonder if it would've been better to have two $11mil guys than JJ, since they would add to the depth and could have a combined impact positive greater than what JJ brings to the table.

When I see that there only 50 players making more than $11mil per year and guys like Steph Curry, Duncan, Derozan, Mike Conley, Monta Ellis, Teague, Dirk, and Pau Gasol make less than 1/2 of what he makes and yet each one of those has significantly higher PERs than Joe, it definitely makes me think about how good of an investment we made in getting him.

It's not his fault that he's paid so much, but his contract takes up so much cap space and plays such a big role in preventing us from being able to sign other players that I can't help but get mad at him when he plays like crap.

if we are going to talk about contract vs play, there are bigger offenders on this team.

Williams is still owed 22M, he is like the 12 or 12th best PG in the league

Lopez is owed 16 million, he is like maybe the 15th or 20th best center

KG is making 12 million, he isnt a top 25 PF.

of those 4 guys, id say they all are an embarassment vs. their pay. id say joe is the closest to earning his. he plays both ends and has been the most effective, especially when it counts(clutch/playoffs) and he has EASILY been the most durable. lopez cant stay on the floor and dwill cant say healthy enough to deserve to be on the court

[NyCeEvO]

Joe Johnson has always been an enigma for me (while on the Nets).

Like Speedy said, there are stretches of good play and stretches of ok, which is what you expect and hope for from one of your top players.

The problem begins to arise when you start to think about his contract in relation to his play.

I know people will say that he didn't give himself the max deal, it was offered to him. Yes, that's true.

However, from the perspective of a team that must obey by CBA rules, you really hope that your 20+mil/year player plays good most of the time and great sometimes. His contract takes up such a huge part of the salary cap space that you want a player who's good enough to make you feel like he's worth that cap space (that you didn't use to sign other players).

There are several $11mil who are playing close enough to JJ's level that it really makes you wonder if it would've been better to have two $11mil guys than JJ, since they would add to the depth and could have a combined impact positive greater than what JJ brings to the table.

When I see that there only 50 players making more than $11mil per year and guys like Steph Curry, Duncan, Derozan, Mike Conley, Monta Ellis, Teague, Dirk, and Pau Gasol make less than 1/2 of what he makes and yet each one of those has significantly higher PERs than Joe, it definitely makes me think about how good of an investment we made in getting him.

It's not his fault that he's paid so much, but his contract takes up so much cap space and plays such a big role in preventing us from being able to sign other players that I can't help but get mad at him when he plays like crap.

Johnson was always a horrible investment, especially at the cost of pick swaps with a team that beat us down by 30 points.

Hawks have retooled their squad quite well thanks to our help. Meanwhile, we are a sub .500 team

We can get upset about D-Will and Brook but we already had Brook and it didn't cost us anything to get him. Plus, while I preferred to trade Brook when he was a RFA, there were other teams that gave him a max contract which forced us to give him max dollars anyway. Other teams wanted to give Lopez his contract despite his flaws, so I don't fault the Nets for matching the offer sheet.

D-Will cost us Derrick Favors, Enes Kanter, Devin Harris, and another first round pick. Given all that has happened, I'd still do that deal even though at the time I believed (and I still believe) that King overpaid. I didn't think those guys would amount to much and even though D-Will has been injured for most of his Nets career, he still gave us a full post-ASB period of elite PG play in 2013 and was the reason why D12 initially wanted to come to the Nets. In spite of all the other stuff that has occurred, D-Will's presence made us a point of attraction for star players.

There wasn't a single team in the NBA that wanted JJ's contract. Not one.

Even if you want to argue that the Nets screwed up by re-signing Brook and giving D-Will a max deal, the deal for the 3rd "star" player is very crucial because there's a high chance that the 3rd contract will bring a team close to, if not over, the luxury tax limit. The third piece is really the important piece because it really solidifies what you can do as a franchise going forward under the new CBA.

In the deal for JJ, we trade for a guy who is already 30.

JJ made more the year that we traded for him ($19.75mil) than D-Will is making right now ($18.46mil) in year 3 of his new max deal.

We gave up salary relief which could've been used to trade for any other unwanted contract in the league.

We gave up pick swaps for two seasons, which is extremely foolish considering how you never know what will happen in the future.

And just imagine if the trajectory for this team continues for the rest of the season. The Hawks could be 4th or 5th in the ECF and get our pick. I don't want even want to think about what happens if we miss the playoffs and we get a high lottery pick that will subsequently go to the Hawks.

The acquisition of JJ not only instantly put a cap on who this team could sign and acquire (effectively putting us into treadmill status) but the worst impact of the trade may still be in the future (3 whole years after the trade was completed).

Again, I know JJ isn't at fault for his contract, but from my perspective his presence on this team will always remind me of how badly King fumbled the ball in acquiring that 3rd core player for this team.

[Paradise]

Joe IS NOT playing well. His best games have come against sub .500 teams like Detroit, NY, Orlando, OKC, etc. He has consistently disappeared against the likes of Chicago, San Antonio, Golden State, Milwaukee, Miami and now Atlanta. How can anyone sit there and look at the games and not see that his production and his overall effort and energy level is subpar and downright pathetic for a so called "All-Star" ?

The investment has been a failure and I really like Joe alot and like I said, I'm very proud to put him in the list of my favorite Net scorers behind Vince Carter but the deal overall sucks and it hasn't brought 50 wins, It hasn't brought us a ECF appearance, It hasn't brought us consecutive trips to the 2nd round or a Division Title. We spent years of pick swaps for inconsistent basketball.

And while he shouldn't be blamed for being overpaid or signing it, he still has a responsibility as the 2nd option on the team and he is simply not getting it done and his effort and body language in the last few weeks is disgusting. The way he looks and plays with zero presence is exactly why he gets criticized for his contract and production ratio.


We gave up pick swaps for a guy who is getting outperformed on a nightly basis.

Mirza at 3 million: Per 36 - 15.7 ppg .572 TS% PER 14.9
Joe at 23 million: Per 36 - 16.1 ppg, .527 TS% PER 15.9


That's such an embarrassment and I have no doubt Bojan will surpass him in production by next season as well. I'm sorry but his production is unacceptable. Especially with the lack of depth this team has without Livingston, Pierce and Blatche. Every so called "star" steps up and plays with a better sense of urgency. Yet, he still doesn't.

[kerry kittles]

Here is Mirza vs Joe last year as a comparison:

Joe: 16.1 pgpg, 56.4 TS%, 15.5 PER
Mirza: 16 ppg, 57.2 TS%, 14.9 PER

And Klay as a comparison 18.6 ppg, 55.5 TS%, 14.3 PER

I think it's just a really poor argument to look at things based on those 3 and say a player is better. Was Mirza better than Klay last year? No, and it wasn't close.

Like I said Joe Johnson trade is a trade a team makes a final piece to be a championship contender. For example, it could've made sense for the Bulls this summer to trade us Boozer, Kirk, Dunleavy, and Snell. It that scenario Joe held make the Bulls a championship contender: Rose/Butler/Joe/Gibson/Noah would arguably be the best starting 5 in the league. For the Nets it just tied up cap without putting us over the top. That's not an indictment on Joe, but on Billy King for making the trade. King overpaid that's on him.

It's also not Joe's fault the Nets have not made the ECF. The team just isn't that good. He was limited by planter facitisis two years and the best player on this team in the playoffs last year by a gigantic margin. Wouldn't have beat the Raptors without him. We weren't beating the Heat two years ago if we got past the Bulls and got to to the Heat even if Joe played out of his mind, we lost to them in 5 last year with him playing out of his mind. Again this is an indictment on King.

If we're trying to scapegoat on here the man who should shoulder the blame is the one put this mess together, Billy King.