Nets/Suns PG: Worst Backcourt In The NBA

[Paradise]

Jack - 3/12
Joe - 5/11
D-Won't - 2/16


NBA Hell

[MrDollarBills]

who can root for this garbage

besides the homers and idiots from NetsDaily

[Pumbo_Sploof]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1248210#start_here

[Pumbo_Sploof]

My hopes for the starting lineup:

D-will
Markel
Bogs
Thad
Lopez

Will never happen, but I wish. D-will and Lopez should never play with either of Plumlee/Jack. Tie their minutes together in pairs. Joe should come off the bench where his ball-stopping will be less troubling. Profit.

[kerry kittles]

My hopes for the starting lineup:

D-will
Markel
Bogs
Thad
Lopez

Will never happen, but I wish. D-will and Lopez should never play with either of Plumlee/Jack. Tie their minutes together in pairs. Joe should come off the bench where his ball-stopping will be less troubling. Profit.

Ortg with Joe on the court: 102.5
Ortg with Joe off the court: 96.6

I fail to see how Joe's ball-stopping is hurting this team offensively. I fail to see how Bogdanovic and Markel who are poor 3 point shooters, replacing our best 3 point shooter will help space the floor.

Thad needs to start, and Joe needs to move back to SF.
DWill
Anderson
Joe
Thad
Plumlee

[CalamityX12]

[Prokorov]

besides the homers and idiots from NetsDaily

I know you're still a little raw about being banned four years ago, but they're just as disheartened as us. Band together with the fellow fan. No need to be so aggressive. Although this is where most of the banned Netsdaily posters go, so you have a decent audience .

EDITED (Come on!)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1248210#start_here

[Prokorov]

My hopes for the starting lineup:

D-will
Markel
Bogs
Thad
Lopez

Will never happen, but I wish. D-will and Lopez should never play with either of Plumlee/Jack. Tie their minutes together in pairs. Joe should come off the bench where his ball-stopping will be less troubling. Profit.

that lineup is horrific as far as shooting... you have 2 guys who dont shoot it from 3 (bogs/brown) and 2 guys that love to take and miss long 16-20 foot jumpers(thad and brook). Not to mention you have your worst PNR defending PG and Center on the floor at the same time and 2 rookies on the floor.

thats not even mentioning that we lead the NBA in first quarter FG% and are 3rd in first quarter PPP and overall points.

That is also not mentioning that EVERY single 5 man rotation Williams has played this year without johson has a negative +/-

That is also not mentioning that EVERY single 5 man rotaiton lopez has played this year without johnson has a negative +/-

As far as jos "ball stopping" lopez has much higher usage, has more FGA in isolation (both total and per possesion) and doesnt pass as well out of double teams or pass as well in general. never mind assit percentages.

I'm not against a lineup change, but reasons you list make much sense other then dwill/jack should never play together.

[Prokorov]

My hopes for the starting lineup:

D-will
Markel
Bogs
Thad
Lopez

Will never happen, but I wish. D-will and Lopez should never play with either of Plumlee/Jack. Tie their minutes together in pairs. Joe should come off the bench where his ball-stopping will be less troubling. Profit.

Ortg with Joe on the court: 102.5
Ortg with Joe off the court: 96.6

I fail to see how Joe's ball-stopping is hurting this team offensively. I fail to see how Bogdanovic and Markel who are poor 3 point shooters, replacing our best 3 point shooter will help space the floor.

Thad needs to start, and Joe needs to move back to SF.
DWill
Anderson
Joe
Thad
Plumlee

Agreed... i think that would be an issue.

Joe from 3 - 37%
Anderson from 3 - 35%

Bogs from 3 - 30%
Brown from 3 - 23%

Also...

Lopez from 16-22 feet - 40% (38% career)
Thad from 16-22 feet - 30% (38% career)

Williams is a solid 3 point shooter, and has been good in 2 games this month, but in february shot 24% from three. even if you can count on williams having 1 guy who shoots 3s in a lineup with guys who are so jump shot heavy is probably a problem

[Swav718]

Expecting a blowout for the suns. Morris is going to eat joe food at the 4, whoever dwill is guarding which might be bledsoe is going to go off and someone like tucker is going to have a career night 30 points. typical nets

[Pumbo_Sploof]

that lineup is horrific as far as shooting... you have 2 guys who dont shoot it from 3 (bogs/brown) and 2 guys that love to take and miss long 16-20 foot jumpers(thad and brook).

Bogs/Brown may be overkill. Bogs hasn't been good from 3, but he still can't be left wide open and he moves well off the ball. Perhaps AA over Markel then.

While shooting isn't ideal, it's not like Joe has been a good catch and shoot guy this season. The above lineup has more role players and avoids some overlap with ball dominant guards. Ideally you structure the offense around D-will/Lopez PnR. Thad can act as another floor spacer.

The Lopez jumpers are symptomatic of a larger problem. He's taken them at a much higher rate this year and some of that has to do with Hollins' gameplan - this can be corrected. I think the biggest reason Lopez takes so many jumpers is because he plays a lot with Jack.

Jack is a hideous passer. He runs the PnR a lot with Lopez, but unlike D-will is incapable of hitting Lopez while he rolls. He also routinely botches basic entry passes and looks generally nervous making any kind of interior passes. What this all means is that the only time Jack can really find Lopez is out of the pick and pop and he forces. Ideally, Jack and Brook should have zero minutes together.

Not to mention you have your worst PNR defending PG and Center on the floor at the same time and 2 rookies on the floor.

I trust Lopez-Thad against the PnR more than any other bigs combo. And yes, I know Brook isn' a good PnR defender. Plumlee is just worse.

thats not even mentioning that we lead the NBA in first quarter FG% and are 3rd in first quarter PPP and overall points.

Doesn't mean we can't be better and coming off the bench, Lopez plays too many consecutive minutes. I think this starting unit gives us more scoring balance off the bench and will help the other quarters more.

That is also not mentioning that EVERY single 5 man rotation Williams has played this year without johson has a negative +/-

That is also not mentioning that EVERY single 5 man rotaiton lopez has played this year without johnson has a negative +/-

Yeah, how large are these samples? Very vulnerable to confounding variables. How negative is it?

As far as jos "ball stopping" lopez has much higher usage, has more FGA in isolation (both total and per possesion) and doesnt pass as well out of double teams or pass as well in general. never mind assit percentages.

Well usage rate is looking primarily at FGA and controlling for possessions. Its a very narrow way at looking at ball-stopping, especially if you aren't looking at the conversion rates of those shots and the opportunity cost of taking them.

Even larger than shooting is possession time when it comes to ball-stopping. Joe is ball-dominant so it makes sense looking at his dribbles, possession time, and touches. If Joe dribbles around unproductively for 14 second and then passes it off to Deron for a rest that won't show up in usage rate, but it is ball-stopping. The opportunity cost of this is far higher for a guard since they are in the best position to break down defenses and pass.

We can and should look at assist rates,but they must be in context. For how much Joe dominates the ball historically, his assist totals are pathetic. He touches the ball constantly, although less so of late.

[Prokorov]

Bogs/Brown may be overkill. Bogs hasn't been good from 3, but he still can't be left wide open and he moves well off the ball. Perhaps AA over Markel then.

I'm not sure bogs cant be left open or helped off of. he hasnt shot well from 3, from 16-22, and didnt shoot well from 3 last year overseas with a shorter 3 point line.

While shooting isn't ideal, it's not like Joe has been a good catch and shoot guy this season.

He has been our best catch and shoot 3 point shooter this season. And one of the few who isnt under 30%

The above lineup has more role players and avoids some overlap with ball dominant guards. Ideally you structure the offense around D-will/Lopez PnR. Thad can act as another floor spacer.

How does this lineup have more role players. the current lineup has markel, AA, and plumlee. yours has bogs, markel, and Thad. seems the same role player wise.

How is thad going to act as a floor spacer? he has been Bad from three this season and horrible from 16-22.

Doesn't mean we can't be better and coming off the bench, Lopez plays too many consecutive minutes. I think this starting unit gives us more scoring balance off the bench and will help the other quarters more.

I dont see the logic in messing with a unit that has been one of the best in the league in the 1st quarter only to hope that your bench gets stronger? seems like an odd solution to lopez playing too many consecutive minutes.

Yeah, how large are these samples? Very vulnerable to confounding variables. How negative is it?

Joe/Dwill
Williams has played a total of 117 minutes without johnson. those 5 man units are all negative and combined are -19

Williams overall has a positive +/-. His most frequent unit is with johnson on the floor and is a +10. Derons most positive 5-ma unit is with johnson on the floor (38 minutes and +32). overall with dwill and johnson on the floor we are positive

Joe/Brook
Lopez has played a total of 87 minutes without johnson. those 5 man units are a combined -15. all of them are negative.

Lopez with johnson on the floor overall is a positive. Lopez more frequent unit includes johnson and is a +10. Lopez best unit is with johnson and is a +32.

You may say there is insufficent evidence here, but there is currently none that supports that dwill or lopez are better without Johnson on the floor.

Well usage rate is looking primarily at FGA and controlling for possessions. Its a very narrow way at looking at ball-stopping, especially if you aren't looking at the conversion rates of those shots and the opportunity cost of taking them.

Even larger than shooting is possession time when it comes to ball-stopping. Joe is ball-dominant so it makes sense looking at his dribbles, possession time, and touches. If Joe dribbles around unproductively for 14 second and then passes it off to Deron for a rest that won't show up in usage rate, but it is ball-stopping. The opportunity cost of this is far higher for a guard since they are in the best position to break down defenses and pass.

I was unable to find stats on possession time with the ball. so i can only speculate. i dont know if joe holds it longer, but brook certainly holds it quite long himself.

We can and should look at assist rates,but they must be in context. For how much Joe dominates the ball historically, his assist totals are pathetic. He touches the ball constantly, although less so of late.

Lopez touches the ball constantly as well, and his rates are much worse then Joes.

no one is saying joe cant be is heavy or ball dominant. im merely point out brook is just as iso heavy and ball dominant and ball stopping.

[kerry kittles]

that lineup is horrific as far as shooting... you have 2 guys who dont shoot it from 3 (bogs/brown) and 2 guys that love to take and miss long 16-20 foot jumpers(thad and brook).

Bogs/Brown may be overkill. Bogs hasn't been good from 3, but he still can't be left wide open and he moves well off the ball. Perhaps AA over Markel then.

While shooting isn't ideal, it's not like Joe has been a good catch and shoot guy this season. The above lineup has more role players and avoids some overlap with ball dominant guards. Ideally you structure the offense around D-will/Lopez PnR. Thad can act as another floor spacer.

The Lopez jumpers are symptomatic of a larger problem. He's taken them at a much higher rate this year and some of that has to do with Hollins' gameplan - this can be corrected. I think the biggest reason Lopez takes so many jumpers is because he plays a lot with Jack.

Jack is a hideous passer. He runs the PnR a lot with Lopez, but unlike D-will is incapable of hitting Lopez while he rolls. He also routinely botches basic entry passes and looks generally nervous making any kind of interior passes. What this all means is that the only time Jack can really find Lopez is out of the pick and pop and he forces. Ideally, Jack and Brook should have zero minutes together.

Not to mention you have your worst PNR defending PG and Center on the floor at the same time and 2 rookies on the floor.

I trust Lopez-Thad against the PnR more than any other bigs combo. And yes, I know Brook isn' a good PnR defender. Plumlee is just worse.

thats not even mentioning that we lead the NBA in first quarter FG% and are 3rd in first quarter PPP and overall points.

Doesn't mean we can't be better and coming off the bench, Lopez plays too many consecutive minutes. I think this starting unit gives us more scoring balance off the bench and will help the other quarters more.

That is also not mentioning that EVERY single 5 man rotation Williams has played this year without johson has a negative +/-

That is also not mentioning that EVERY single 5 man rotaiton lopez has played this year without johnson has a negative +/-

Yeah, how large are these samples? Very vulnerable to confounding variables. How negative is it?

As far as jos "ball stopping" lopez has much higher usage, has more FGA in isolation (both total and per possesion) and doesnt pass as well out of double teams or pass as well in general. never mind assit percentages.

Well usage rate is looking primarily at FGA and controlling for possessions. Its a very narrow way at looking at ball-stopping, especially if you aren't looking at the conversion rates of those shots and the opportunity cost of taking them.

Even larger than shooting is possession time when it comes to ball-stopping. Joe is ball-dominant so it makes sense looking at his dribbles, possession time, and touches. If Joe dribbles around unproductively for 14 second and then passes it off to Deron for a rest that won't show up in usage rate, but it is ball-stopping. The opportunity cost of this is far higher for a guard since they are in the best position to break down defenses and pass.

We can and should look at assist rates,but they must be in context. For how much Joe dominates the ball historically, his assist totals are pathetic. He touches the ball constantly, although less so of late.

Bogdanovic is shooting 31.3% when wide open from 3 - no defenders within 6 feet. So I'm not sure how you can say he can't be left wide open, 31.3% isn't good at all. Joe is the better 3 point shooter by a wide margin. Bogdanovic is also the worst defender on the roster, worst DRAPM. His only positive quality is what you mention - moving off ball, over 70% of his field goals are assisted. He cannot create his own shot effectively.

Markell is not a good offensive player, piss poor 3 point shooter as well.

Joe is needed to space the court, Teams would be blitzing the pick and roll, cutting off driving lanes, as we'd no one to space the court effectively. Joe still commands a ton of defensive attention, It's no coincidence their such a stark difference in ortg when he sits vs when he's on the court. The whole roster is a mess, Joe's ball stopping isn't taking away possessions from great offensive players - there's a darth of offensive talent on the roster. Deron's having his least efficient scoring season since his rookie year, Bogs & Markell I just touched upon, Alan Anderson is meh, ISO Joe was much less pronounced last year when the roster was much more balanced, had more efficient scorers.

This Hawks and Spurs narrative used against Joe needs to stop. This teams have much more talent than then the Nets, have great 3 point shooting, have cohesion, have great coaching. How are the Lakers and Knicks doing without Melo and Kobe who are more ball dominant than Joe. Removing a ball dominant player from a bad team doesn't turn them good.

[Lamak]

If Hollins keeps bringing Lopez off the bench I wouldn't be surprised if he turned down his player option and walks.

[CalamityX12]

If Hollins keeps bringing Lopez off the bench I wouldn't be surprised if he turned down his player option and walks.

Wouldn't bother me anymore....

Our(Lopez n Nets) relationship has run its course. Time to move on to separate ways

[Lamak]

If Hollins keeps bringing Lopez off the bench I wouldn't be surprised if he turned down his player option and walks.

Wouldn't bother me anymore....

Our(Lopez n Nets) relationship has run its course. Time to move on to separate ways

I have mixed feelings still. Guy is like the new Yao Ming and has been a franchise Net, but his effort level

[CalamityX12]

If Hollins keeps bringing Lopez off the bench I wouldn't be surprised if he turned down his player option and walks.

Wouldn't bother me anymore....

Our(Lopez n Nets) relationship has run its course. Time to move on to separate ways

I have mixed feelings still. Guy is like the new Yao Ming and has been a franchise Net, but his effort level

Effort level, Bball IQ, reluctance to use his size and strength inside, his fear of playing close to the rim, his lack of understanding that he should try to rebound the damn ball when his 4 other teammates are damn guards...etc

[Prokorov]

If Hollins keeps bringing Lopez off the bench I wouldn't be surprised if he turned down his player option and walks.

wouldnt be the worst thing. would get us under the tax allowing the MLE, BAE, and Sign and trades to happen. We'd be 1 joe johnson for buyout eligible players from being under the cap.

[NyCeEvO]

Do we need to bring up ND in every thread? I understand making passing references but it seems like we just talk about them just to make ourselves feel better.

The best way to demonstrate how good RealGM is by creating our own community here and focusing on building it up. The sense of community on this board is severely lacking at the present moment. Many of our regulars are tired of the divisiveness and trollish behavior and stay away.

I hope we can one day get back to being a unified board that knows how to talk about the team and argue in a constructive way without the need to severely critique something.

This used to be a fun site to go even when the Nets were playing poorly. Now this place is just a bunch of posters yelling back and forth at each other and puffing out their chest about how right they were/are and how wrong everyone else is. This stuff needs to stop or this place will stay at the poor quality it's been at for the last year or so.

[Lamak]

Do we need to bring up ND in every thread? I understand making passing references but it seems like we just talk about them just to make ourselves feel better.

The best way to demonstrate how good RealGM is by creating our own community here and focusing on building it up. The sense of community on this board is severely lacking at the present moment. Many of our regulars are tired of the divisiveness and trollish behavior and stay away.

I hope we can one day get back to being a unified board that knows how to talk about the team and argue in a constructive way without the need to severely critique something.

This used to be a fun site to go even when the Nets were playing poorly. Now this place is just a bunch of posters yelling back and forth at each other and puffing out their chest about how right they were/are and how wrong everyone else is. This stuff needs to stop or this place will stay at the poor quality it's been at for the last year or so.

This x1000. We obviously already have the most dysfunctional franchise, no need to war with each other cause its hard to support the squad.