RealGM

rank the following 1 through 32 as starters at their position:

Jack
Bogs
Joe
Thad
Lopez

rank the followign 1 thorugh 32 among backups at their position

Larkin
ellington
RHJ
Robinson
Bargani

NOTE: 1st would mean best in the league, 32nd worst in the league

here are NBA depth charts for reference:
http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/depth-charts/nba.aspx

I didn't put much thought into this, as in, we have to balance offense/defense/team fits etc. Some of those depth charts are wrong but I used them anyway. Just intuitively, these are my rankings:


PG - 29
SG - 21
SF - 19
PF - 22
C - 13
average 20.8
----------------------
PG - 31
SG - 23
SF - 19
PF - 25
C - 24
22.4

I'm a bit shocked at some low rankings and am curious if I have any major discrepancies to Nets fans. Post yours Prok.

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:I didn't put much thought into this, as in, we have to balance offense/defense/team fits etc. Some of those depth charts are wrong but I used them anyway. Just intuitively, these are my rankings:


PG - 29
SG - 21
SF - 19
PF - 22
C - 13
average 20.8
----------------------
PG - 31
SG - 23
SF - 19
PF - 25
C - 24
22.4

I'm a bit shocked at some low rankings and am curious if I have any major discrepancies to Nets fans. Post yours Prok.

PG seems harsh. i know we blow there but is larkin really the 2nd worst backup PG in the NBA? i cant imagine that is the case. I think that is kind of harsh on thomas robinson as well. and i dont know that there are 18 SF's better then joe johnson.

Starters:

Jack - 27 (ahead of mudiay, russell, rubio(injuries), Jazz starter, Wroten)
Bogs - 20
Joe - 13
Thad - 19
Lopez - 9 (behind Horford, Dwight, Gasol, Deandre, Cousins, Duncan, Noah, Drummond)

backups:

Larkin - 18
ellington - 22
RHJ - 14
Robinson -19
Bargani - 26

I had Frazier behind him. Other names that you could put there, Goodwin, Burke, Canaan. 18 is a bit shocking. He just hasn't looked like the NBA has slowed down for him. He can't run a team. He can't score efficiently enough. He's still finding his place and looked pretty bad at times, he should be the 3rd PG.

Jack seems like a good bench scorer but not an ideal starter, so for that he is downgraded. I had Exum over him(because of his defense and upside), other than that it's an easy ranking I guess.

Johnson, I must have made a mistake with my counting. These are the guys I have over him(at SF... I like him better as a SG): Hayward, Carroll, Leonard, Melo, KD, Lebron, Wiggins, Middleton, George, Barnes/Iguodala, Parsons, Gallinari, MKG. So 14. There's always the question of role guys, who fit teams that wouldn't need Johnson's ball handling skills, such as an Ariza who is valuable for his d covering up Harden.

Lopez, I have over him: Horford, Drummond, Bogut, Howard, Jordan, Gasol, Whiteside, Chandler(looked pretty good last year and he does make a team better, easy to build around), Duncan, Cousins, Gobert. 12. Noah has fallen off a cliff.

I had trouble ranking RHJ, Young and Bogdanovic. One because he's a bit of an unknown. The other because he's a bit one dimensional but then again several teams don't have much at that position and finally Bogdanovic, believing he'll have an expanded role next year and be more consistent.

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:I had Frazier behind him. Other names that you could put there, Goodwin, Burke, Canaan. 18 is a bit shocking. He just hasn't looked like the NBA has slowed down for him. He can't run a team. He can't score efficiently enough. He's still finding his place and looked pretty bad at times, he should be the 3rd PG.

i dont know, there are some BAD backup point gaurds. im fine putting him int he 20's, but second to last seemed harsh. i dont know that it really matters enough to debate though, its backup PG, likely fit and system determines it more then talent. i think larkin will benefit(or be hurt by?) getting mroe time then most backups since jack is no starter.

Jack seems like a good bench scorer but not an ideal starter, so for that he is downgraded. I had Exum over him(because of his defense and upside), other than that it's an easy ranking I guess.

Jack is no starter. exum is hurt so i put him above exum. likewise with the rookies, since to me thats unknown. but i dont think its unfair to say he will be bottom 5 among starting point gaurds, especially since its the most loaded position in the NBA.

Johnson, I must have made a mistake with my counting. These are the guys I have over him(at SF... I like him better as a SG): Hayward, Carroll, Leonard, Melo, KD, Lebron, Wiggins, Middleton, George, Barnes/Iguodala, Parsons, Gallinari, MKG. So 14. There's always the question of role guys, who fit teams that wouldn't need Johnson's ball handling skills, such as an Ariza who is valuable for his d covering up Harden.

14 seems about right. joe can still play and SF isnt super deep. i dont like him at SG. he cant defend that position very well anymore.

Lopez, I have over him: Horford, Drummond, Bogut, Howard, Jordan, Gasol, Whiteside, Chandler(looked pretty good last year and he does make a team better, easy to build around), Duncan, Cousins, Gobert. 12. Noah has fallen off a cliff.

im fine with whiteside if you think he continues to play like he did or even improve. he was great last year and even beasted brook one game head to head. Gobert i can let go as well. chandler i dont think is better, even if he stays healthy. bogut to me doesnt belong on this list. or close to it. soldi defender, high iq, but always hurt ( i know lopez missed 2 seasons but when he has played he doesnt have lingering injuries in and out of the lineup). i also think bogut is in a great situation that lopez shines in as well. i think brook is no doubt a top 8-12 center. and i think if he plays like he did the last 6 weeks he is no doubt a top 3 center.

I had trouble ranking RHJ, Young and Bogdanovic. One because he's a bit of an unknown. The other because he's a bit one dimensional but then again several teams don't have much at that position and finally Bogdanovic, believing he'll have an expanded role next year and be more consistent.

yeah RHJ is a relative unknown. who knows if his D makes him high impact or his youth and offens emake him a guy who struggles year 1. bogs, again, who knows as he was wildly inconsistent.

Agree with most of the rankings so far. Would have Young, Lopez and Bargnani higher.

If Brook even remotely puts together a season close to how he played in the 2nd half of the year he leapfrogs a lot of people ranked ahead of him.

"IF".

I'm bored and caught up on work, so I'll rank the team by tiers, and give an overall grade for the roster. A = 5, B = 4, so on, so forth.

MDB's NBA Grading System:

A Tier: Franchise players and Superstars. Once in a lifetime talents or absolute superstar ballers. More than likely can be hall of famers if their career path stays the course. Past or Present Net examples: Jason Kidd.

B Tier: All star level studs. Not necessarily guys that can carry a team to a title, but paired together with other A and B tier players will make your team great. Past or Present Net examples: Vince Carter.

C Tier: Slightly Below all star level players, but very good players nonetheless that produce consistently and have a decent skill set. 3 and D wings and top shelf roleplayers populate this tier. Past or Present Net examples: Richard Jefferson.

D Tier: Very flawed roleplayer types. Good at some basic things, but not very good at anything else. Past or Present Net examples: Too many to count....think Jarrett Jack.

F Tier: Near D League level talent, 12th men. Past or Present Net examples: Sergey Karasev, Markel Brown, Antione Wright, Terrence Williams, Sean Williams, Deron Williams..

Jack: D Tier. Aggressive offensively with a good midrange J, but horrific defensively and isn't a 3 pt shooter to balance out his skill set. Mediocre passer.

Bogs: D Tier until proven to be a consistent scorer. Can easily move into C Tier imo. Must remain aggressive defensively since he will be playing against a skilled player each night.

Joe: C Tier as long as his usage and minutes are used judiciously. If he gets run into the ground again, D Tier because all he'll be good for is catch and shoot situations. Defense is nil.

Thad: C Tier. Athletic, can hit the midrange J, can knock down 3s but not at a rate that truly stretches the floor, produces consistently and plays hard. Poor pick and roll defense, is prone to getting annihilated by typical low block 4s. Better off defending against guys that like to face up on the perimeter.

Lopez: B Tier, if he plays like he did at the end of last season that alone will make this team a tough one to play each night. Must maintain offensive aggressiveness, must be vocal in the locker room and on the floor, must be aggressive on the glass and must be a factor at the rim defensively.

Staring 5 Grade: D+

Bench:

Larkin: D Tier. Fast as all hell. Has to prove that he is a good PnR PG on this level. Must be able to hit open shots. Must stay under control when he gets past his man and into the paint.

Ellington: D Tier: Can shoot from anywhere but can he defend? Not sure even though his name has popped up in articles about "3 and D" players. Would be a bonus if he does defend.

RHJ: N/A, rookie.

Robinson: D Tier. Rebound machine, hustles and can get garbage points. Not much else to see here. I'd grade him as an F Tier but IMO his near double double numbers that he can potentially produce off of the bench aren't a fluke.

Bargani: D Tier. Streak shooter, bad defender. Can't rebound. Not very efficient.

Brown: F Tier. Can't shoot, can't pass, can't dribble, but is athletic and can defend. The fact though that he is undersized and can't provide any other skill but good on the ball defense puts him at the bottom rung.

Karasev: F Tier. Cannot shoots, cannot jump, cannot run, cannot defend either wing spot, cannot rebound. Smokes cigarettes, has 3am trysts with hookers on the morning of game days, has a torn up knee.

Miller: F Tier. Has an interesting skillset with his height, arm length, nice ball handle, and has displayed serious range on his jumpshot, but has yet to produce in NBA games. Will the added muscle and this possibly being his last chance in the league push him towards realizing the potential he has?

Boatwright: N/A, Rookie.

Reed: F Tier. D-League import.

McCullough: N/A, Rookie, f'd up knee.

OVERALLGRADE INCLUDING POTENTIAL CUT PLAYERS, NOT INCLUDING ROOKIES: D.

Center (Pau and Duncan are centers when I rank)

1. Pau Gasol - By far the most complete Center in the NBA. Scores, Rebounds, Blocks Shots, Passes well, Can make shots.

2. Marc Gasol - Gasol is an even worse rebounder then Brook but his outstanding ball handling gives him the edge.

3. Brook Lopez - Two of his percieved weaknesses (Passing and Rebounding) are overblown. Although he doesnt get a lot of assist he also doesnt turn the ball over much (8.6% TO rate) despite not putting up big rebounding numbers he had the highest Contested Rebounding % in the NBA. He is one of the best mid range shooting bigs in the NBA as well as one of the top shot blockers

4. TIm Duncan - The big fundamental is starting to show his age. He shot poorly from mid range and his rebounding numbers have decreased.

5. DeMarcus Cousins - Puts up scoring numbers but poor shooting % and turnovers offset it. Puts up good assist numbers but he has a sub 1 Ast/TO ratio. He is a great rebounder and much improved defender though.

6. Dwight Howard - Still the best defensive center but cant score outside of the paint (His 50% from 16 <3 was on only a few shots). Turns the ball over a lot.

7. Al Horford - Does everything well but rebound and block shots. Plays more like a PF. I would love to get him next year.

8. DeAndre Jordan - Only does two things, rebound and block shots, but he is among the best in the NBA at them.

9. Nikola Vucevic - Surprise name on this list but he is very good offensively. Defensively he struggles though.

10. Andre Drummond - Does alot of the same things DeAndre does but at much lower FG% for someone who only scores in the paint.

Notes: Jokim Noah is in steep decline. Surprised to see his FG% at the rim so high..... Robin Lopez isnt a top center by any standard. Seeing his numbers next to the elite should put that to rest..... Kanter has a lot of offensive potential but his D is terrible.

I think Brook is definitely a top 10 center, especially now that we might go to him more than ever as our first option. Joe is still top 15 sf and jack bottom 5

Pg - 24
sg- 22
sf- 13
pf -14
C- 6

average ranking for starters 15.8

Honestly doing it with back-ups is quite difficult, and your bench is quite unproven anyway so it is tricky, so I'd just go with starters,

PG 23
SG 20
SF 14
PF 15
C 8

Hope you dont mind the honest opinion of an outsider.
I tried to be optimistic, meaning that every position that was a tie or close, I gave it to the Nets favor.

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:

Lopez, I have over him: Horford, Drummond, Bogut, Howard, Jordan, Gasol, Whiteside, Chandler(looked pretty good last year and he does make a team better, easy to build around), Duncan, Cousins, Gobert. 12. Noah has fallen off a cliff.

I don't see how 48 games of Whiteside or 29games of Gobert is good enough to place both ahead of someone who has a much larger body of work. If we're going to put half a season sample size into this then you have to also include the 30 regular season and 6 postseason games where Lopez averaged all-star production.

I have it:

Jack: 27
Bogs: 22
Joe 13
Young:14
Lopez: 6


The only one I'm truly interested in debating is the Lopez one:

Dwight Howard
Marc Gasol
Tim Duncan
Demarcus Cousins
Al Horford
Deandre Jordan***

Are the only Centers I would rank higher than Lopez. Noah was so horrendous last season... his defense fell off, he averaged 7 ppg on a Rondo like efficiency and was just so inept on that end that he was literally scared to shoot the ball. Lopez is MUCH better at this point. Lopez is better than Hibbert and that's a no-brainer. Kanter and Vucevic are just so bad defensively which is why Lopez is just flatly better IMO. And if Lopez is completely healthy and playing like he did the last couple of months of the season then I would rank him ahead of Jordan and Horford for sure.

Paradise wrote:

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:

Lopez, I have over him: Horford, Drummond, Bogut, Howard, Jordan, Gasol, Whiteside, Chandler(looked pretty good last year and he does make a team better, easy to build around), Duncan, Cousins, Gobert. 12. Noah has fallen off a cliff.

I don't see how 48 games of Whiteside or 29games of Gobert is good enough to place both ahead of someone who has a much larger body of work. If we're going to put half a season sample size into this then you have to also include the 30 regular season and 6 postseason games where Lopez averaged all-star production.

That's a fair point, especially on Whiteside's case. The guy showed up from nowhere. In Gobert's case, it's safer to say that he is legit. In my mind, I was picking players - right now - that would better fit my ideal of a team. And in that ideal, I value guys that won't need the ball on offense and are a difference on defense.

I guess a few years back I would look at this opinion laughing(but advanced stats are highlighting more and more the impact of certain players that you wouldn't consider before), but yeah... some of these guys who can protect the rim, stay with people on defense, while being offensively challenged(only able to dunk, roll) are more valuable than a guy who puts up points, but at the expense of ball movement and on d are not anchors.

I saw that with the Mavericks. A guy like Tyson Chandler was extremely impactful, in ways that a guy like Lopez would never be able to be and in that abstract proposition of building a team, I would go with a defensive minded C over an offensive one like Lopez.

Jack - 25
Bogs - 15
Joe - 13
Thad - 14
Lopez - 7

With Horford and Jordan ahead by a very small debatable margin.

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:[quote=&quot;Paradise&quot;][quote=&quot;Dirk Nowitzki&quot;]

Lopez, I have over him: Horford, Drummond, Bogut, Howard, Jordan, Gasol, Whiteside, Chandler(looked pretty good last year and he does make a team better, easy to build around), Duncan, Cousins, Gobert. 12. Noah has fallen off a cliff.

I don't see how 48 games of Whiteside or 29games of Gobert is good enough to place both ahead of someone who has a much larger body of work. If we're going to put half a season sample size into this then you have to also include the 30 regular season and 6 postseason games where Lopez averaged all-star production.[/quote]

That's a fair point, especially on Whiteside's case. The guy showed up from nowhere. In Gobert's case, it's safer to say that he is legit. In my mind, I was picking players - right now - that would better fit my ideal of a team. And in that ideal, I value guys that won't need the ball on offense and are a difference on defense.

I guess a few years back I would look at this opinion laughing(but advanced stats are highlighting more and more the impact of certain players that you wouldn't consider before), but yeah... some of these guys who can protect the rim, stay with people on defense, while being offensively challenged(only able to dunk, roll) are more valuable than a guy who puts up points, but at the expense of ball movement and on d are not anchors.

I saw that with the Mavericks. A guy like Tyson Chandler was extremely impactful, in ways that a guy like Lopez would never be able to be and in that abstract proposition of building a team, I would go with a defensive minded C over an offensive one like Lopez.[/quote]
Lopez was 3rd in PnR scoring with a 24% frequency and FG% of 52.9. Only Davis and Vucevic were better. He also was 4th behind Jordan in cuts to the rim with a 16% frequency and 64% finishing rate. So, the majority of his points came off ball movement.

Defensively, Lopez allowed 42% on PnR coverage. Chandler allowed 45% and Jordan allowed 43%. On Post up defense, Lopez allowed 39.9% while Marc Gasol allowed 38.1%, Gobert with 38.3%, Chandler with 36%, Jordan with 40.4% and Whiteside with 47%.

Paradise wrote:Lopez was 3rd in PnR scoring with a 24% frequency and FG% of 52.9. Only Davis and Vucevic were better. He also was 4th behind Jordan in cuts to the rim with a 16% frequency and 64% finishing rate. So, the majority of his points came off ball movement.

Defensively, Lopez allowed 42% on PnR coverage. Chandler allowed 45% and Jordan allowed 43%. On Post up defense, Lopez allowed 39.9% while Marc Gasol allowed 38.1%, Gobert with 38.3%, Chandler with 36%, Jordan with 40.4% and Whiteside with 47%.

im still skeptical on alot of the individual defensive metrics. they have come a long way, but still dont tell the whole story IMO. for instance, Lopez allowing 39.9% in pick and roll coverage. im sure thats true, but it doesnt tell you how much help he got on those attempts and doesnt tell you how the defense may have broken around him because of that defense.

for instance, hypothertical....

Lopez defending in the pick and roll, is completely lost and their big gets a wide open dunk. hollins has to adjust, he has the wings now cheat in to impeded the path of the rolling big. big rolls, gaurd impedes him, lopez gets back eventually, shot missed. next possesion, same thing, gaurd impedes the big, ball goes ot the wing, wide open 3. and the opponent is now knocking down open 3s on us.

stuff like that doesnt show up in the stats for defending the pick and roll. same with defense at the rim. it is always great to limit opposing FG% at the rim, but if your lack of defense is allowing shot after shot after shot at the rim, even if you are allowing a lower percentage teams are still getting in there which is going to lead to free throws, second chance points, and likely open up the 3 point line.

im not saying that applies to lopez, just illustrating why i take those stats with a grain of salt. anytime i see stats showing lopez as a good or even very good pick and roll defender, im extremely skeptical, having watched all the games, with a huge focus on that play specifically.

Paradise wrote:Lopez was 3rd in PnR scoring with a 24% frequency and FG% of 52.9. Only Davis and Vucevic were better. He also was 4th behind Jordan in cuts to the rim with a 16% frequency and 64% finishing rate. So, the majority of his points came off ball movement.

Defensively, Lopez allowed 42% on PnR coverage. Chandler allowed 45% and Jordan allowed 43%. On Post up defense, Lopez allowed 39.9% while Marc Gasol allowed 38.1%, Gobert with 38.3%, Chandler with 36%, Jordan with 40.4% and Whiteside with 47%.

You know, as I said, I tried to do my list based on "eye test" more or less based on an "ideal team fit", so I didn't really check stats. This was for fun. I knew some of those names would be controversial because we normally wouldn't look at some of those guys who 'aren't very talented at basketball' over a polished offensive guy like Lopez. So it was interesting to go check some advanced stats on them. I used these three other guys as comparison:











The Nets defensive rating was slightly better without Lopez(104.6). Check out Utah's defense without Gobert, it's astonishing, they go from

Defending Post Ups
Chandler 36.6
Gobert 38.3
Lopez 39.9
Whiteside 47.6%

If you notice those stats, Nowitzki is better than Lopez on the PnR(38.1%) and Post up defense(38.2%). That shocked me and made me laugh. It's just a reminder that we really need to look beyond stats and into what's happening in games.