Brookie the Wookie: Brook Lopez Appreciation Thread

[MrDollarBills]

I do agree about the constant coaching turnover and garbage PG play having a negative impact on Brook. That's something that gets overlooked. this franchise has been a **** show management and coaching wise for most of his time here.

I thought Atkinson's usage of Lopez was pretty solid, Brook had an excellent season under him and expanded his game. No one could have predicted Lopez becoming a reliable 3pt thread. That was a legit weapon for us most nights, Lopez catching and shooting from down town....I wouldn't undersell that as him just being used as a floor spacer.

[treiz]

There are different degrees of "poor teams around them."

- The 2009-2010 team was arguably the worst NBA ever assembled. Lopez was the lone talented player on a team of d-leaguers.

- The 2010-2012 seasons and the 2014-2016 seasons also all ranked as some of the worst teams constructed this decade. Again, full of d-leaguers.

- The Cousins and Davis had relatively bad supporting casts, but the Nets have had FAR worse supporting casts the last three years. Lopez's teammates make Cousins' teammates look like the Warriors.

- The clown parade of coaches has not helped this situation.

Granted, Lopez plays in the East, but unlike Cousins, he has actually carried his team into the playoffs as by far the best player. During that 14-15 season we had a worse roster than the Kings and we had one of the worst coaches to ever coach in the NBA (Hollins). Despite Hollins sabotaging us for half the season, Lopez played ridiculously after the All-Star game once the game was tailored to him, and he single-handedly carried us into the playoffs, and was a big reason we played a competitive series against one a Top 2 team in the East and a vastly superior team.

The fact that Anthony Davis has been stuck in 30-34 win purgatory, despite being a Top 3-5 player in the NBA over the last few years, and having a better team than Lopez, should tell you how ridiculously unfair your expectations for Lopez are. It's really hard to win with horrible teammates and you cannot overstate how extreme and unlucky Lopez's situation has been.

Firstly, yes you are correct about the level of poor teams, and I get that, again you are right about the state of the Nets during his tenure here not being the best and I agree with that it didn't help. I mean this is the team that gave Outlaw a $35 million contract, I remember that summer of Farmar/Outlaw/Petro like it was yesterday. But the differences between the teams I'm referencing (Davis' Pelicans and Cousins' King) and the Nets during that period are at best incremental, they were all treadmill teams. At the end of the day, they were all placed in a poor system with poor coaches and poor rosters.

You say my expectations were too ridiculously unfair on Lopez, all I wanted was a 30-40 win season with him leading, like what Davis/Cousins accomplished, how is that unfair? I'm not here begging for championships or even playoff appearances, especially in the East. Yes he managed to accomplish that one time, but when you take that over a 9-year period, it doesn't look too good.

Moreover, I will remind you that the max contract in the NBA is not reserved for superstars. That simply isn't how the payscale works. When I am judging a max contract, I am not expecting the player to be at least Top 10. I am happy if the player is Top 30-40 or better. Lopez was better than this so I was fine with the max.

Where was the outrage over Joe Johnson's max contract? He was the worst player in the NBA for the first half of 14-15 and an absolute cancer every year in Brooklyn.

Again, you say I have a ridiculous expectation of Lopez, you're damn right I have a ridiculous expectation of Lopez considering how much money he was being paid, he was paid to be the leader of this team and lead us to wins, he took a lot of our cap throughout the year and that represents how important he was for us. And quite frankly he was disappointing in that regard.

I know the max contract isn't reserved for superstars, but when you're being paid that money, then you have to perform and prove that you're worth that money, thought that should be painfully obvious for analyst like you. And btw, that JJ contract was vilified the moment he signed it in ATL. In fact, there was outrage when we traded for him because we ATL should've been giving us assets for taking JJ from them, not the other way around.

Finally, and this is most important, if you are going to judge a player on a superstar standard, it's only fair if you ask if that team treated that player as a superstar - e.g. built around his strengths.

This was never the case with Lopez. Look at the following:

- Until last year, Lopez was never on a team that believed in floor-spacing, one of the most important variables in the modern game. While other centers got to operate with lots of space, Lopez had a career facing double-teams and packed paint.

- Up until last year, Lopez always played in isolation fest with poor ball movement. Center is one of the positions that needs to be passed the ball, and guys like Joe Johnson were unwilling and unable to do so.

- Except for a couple of year, Lopez experienced the worst point-guard play of any center in the NBA. Center production is certainly a factor of how good your ball distributer is, and Lopez rarely received help. We had a hobbled Deron Williams and Jarrett Jack, and more recently scrubs like Jarret Jack, Shane Larkin, Sean Kilpatrick, and Randy Foye.

- A general lack of complimentary talent. This speaks for itself. Lopez faced constant double-teams and defensive scheming his entire career, moreso than mot players will ever face. We rarely had players who could him, outside of the 12-13 season (where we not coincidentally won 49 games).

- Worst coaching stretch of any team in the NBA. 9 different coaches, all yanking Lopez in different directions. I don't think people appreciate how difficult this was for Lopez's production. No continuity, every year having to waste half the season learning a new play style. And the crazy thing is not one of these coaches built a system intended to maximize Lopez's strengths. Hollins insisted on playing him like Marc Gasol, despite Lopez having the better interior and PnR game, and being a bad high-post passer. Avery used him as a low-post scorer, despite that not being Lopez's greatest strength, and despite a help defender always being in the paint because Reggie Evans man could camp out there. Atkinson rarely used the PnR and often wanted Lopez to act as weakside floor spacer.

To say we didn't treat Lopez like a superstar is absurd considering the amount of money the Nets gave him, also the team did try to build around him, it's just a shame that a lot of the pieces around him didn't pan out. Again like I said, I've got nothing but love for Lopez for his professionalism and being a stand-up guy throughout his tenure with us (and I agree with this wholeheartedly) despite the constant crap he put up with. It's why I've stated on my previous post that it's a fair point to your claim that Lopez is really unlucky. But it's not bad luck due to planning, at the time some of the moves Thorn made in Lopez' early days had the right thinking.

But unfortunately it just didn't pan out and we can't play these hypothetical games or scenarios that never existed. I mean the same thing could happen now with Marks and we could be having this same discussion 10 years from now. If I could, then for example, what if Devin Harris managed to produce a couple more All-star seasons? What if Courtney Lee wasn't a bitch? What if we never included Ryan Anderson in the VC trade? What if Terrence Williams wasn't a nut job? I could go on.

The one time we actually built around Brook Lopez was in the second half of 14-15 when we centered out offense around the Deron Willaims-Brook Lopez PnR, and surrounded it with a couple of floor spacers. Not surprisingly, Lopez had the best stretch of his career and put up exceptional scoring numberss And it's not even like Deron Williams was a better than average point guard. There was so much wasted potential with Lopez, if coaches just understood how to maximize his talent.

Just look at Lopez this past year under Kenny. He played in a completely new system with the worst point guard and guard rotation and all of basketball. He got literally not help from any of the guards and outside of an injured Lin, no one could run the PnR with him or even execute a basic entry pass. Yet, despite this, Lopez still managed to increase hiss usage rate and have a career year scoring because, for the first time in his career, he played in an offense with FLOOR SPACING. Now imagine what Lopez could have done with floor spacing AND a point guard, something every other center has had the luxury of experienced. And, in fact, when we look at Lopez's numbers with Lin, you'll notice they are superior and he is assisted much more often.

Again, I agree with this to a degree. But with all things said and done, after his rookie contract, out of the 5 years he was here being paid on average $15 million a year for 2 years and then $21 million a year for his final 3 years, he only justified his pay in 1 of those 5 years. I'm sorry, but for the money he was being paid, that's not good enough.

He did have a really good year scoring wise and offensively he took his game to the next level, not gonna argue with that. But at the same time he had the worst rebounding year of any 7 footer in a long time, he even manage to get worse than year when he averaged 6 rebounds a game in 35 minutes. Not just that but he was as bad as he ever was as a defender due to his inability to defend the PnR which has become a staple in this league. This is what I meant when I said he was a really flawed player. This is what he is as a player, a highly-skilled offensive player but a bigger liability on the defensive end.

As I already stated, expecting Lopez to achieve the same results as those two guys, would mean he was the GOAT. Lopez has had far worse teams than Davis/Cousins have played on in terms of absolute talent, team fit, system, and coaching. He's also has experienced more hostile obstacles to scoring production (no floor spacing, team not built around him, not point guard).

I just think the expectation you are holding Lopez to is patently absurd. You're basically mad he isn't a Top 3 player. I don't disagree with you about the importance of superstars - and Lopez isn't a superstar - but that has little to do with a max contract.

I'm not asking for a championship, I'm not asking for a Finals appearance like what Lebron did with his cast in 2009. Heck I wasn't even asking for a playoffs appearance like what Westbrook did this year. All I was asking for is 30-40 wins, something that Davis/Cousins achieved with an incrementally better team, how is that asking for the GOAT? How can you say that has nothing to do with a max contract when everything we've agreed on essentially states that he's being overpaid and he's not living up to the standards that he's being held on? When you're being paid the max, you have to perform like the max otherwise the whole team suffers not just at the present season but in the future as it hinders your cap space.

Something you're not understanding from my point-of-view is that I'm not saying that Lopez is a bad player, I'm not saying that he's some sort of scrub. At the end of the day he's in the top 5-10 in a lot of the franchises record and is even top at some of them. He's been a great ambassador and servant for this team throughout his tenure here. But he is a very flawed player, and one that does not have a high impact on winning, that's not a criticism, that's just how he turned out as a player. So, when you're occupying a huge chunk of the cap space, you have to back that up and perform what your salary says you are worth, and quite frankly he didn't.

[Prokorov]

I do agree about the constant coaching turnover and garbage PG play having a negative impact on Brook. That's something that gets overlooked. this franchise has been a **** show management and coaching wise for most of his time here.

I thought Atkinson's usage of Lopez was pretty solid, Brook had an excellent season under him and expanded his game. No one could have predicted Lopez becoming a reliable 3pt thread. That was a legit weapon for us most nights, Lopez catching and shooting from down town....I wouldn't undersell that as him just being used as a floor spacer.

Yeah... Lopez has had alot of coaches. and a couple years of backup level point gaurds.

at the same time, how much does that excuse? How many of those 8 coahces tried to improve his rebounding? his defense?

When you give lopez a max contract, does he have a responsibility to put in a ton of extra work to improve those things?

Compare lopez to demarcus cousins. Cousins. Cousins had 6 coaches in 7 years and also played in a crap show of an organization. He had 5 different point gaurds (Collison, rondo, thomas, tyreke evans, beno udrih). like lopez the times he was surrounded by talent it was fringe allstar and misfitting pieces.

cousins was able to improve drastically and become a perrenial allstar and 25/11 player.

Cousins drastically improved his scoring: 14,18,17, 22, 24, 26, 27

He improved his rebounding: 8,11,10,12,13, 12,11

He improved his offense creation/assists: 2.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.5, 4.5

He improved his shooting efficiency/TS%: 48, 49, 52, 55, 54, 54, 56

He improved his defense (DWS/RPM/RAPM up year over year)


So while yeah... the enviornment for lopez was dog turd until last year... this is a 9 year veteran who played on 2 max contracts. maybe he doesnt drastically improve or carry us to the playoffs. but i think its fair to question if he should h ave improved more then he has.... especiallly in rebounding and defense. or to maybe lead awful teams to 25 or 28 wins instead of 10,19,20,21.

Lopez improved from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. from there he really leveled off. he improved his efficinecy a bit... but his numbers from year 3 arent much different from years 5,6,7,8,9. he got injured in year 4... i wonder if that had some mental effects to where he is hesitant. but his rebounding went down from year to year. his first 2 years he was an ok rebounder. then he became a really bad rebounder, then a poor one, then back to an awful rebounder.

[Prokorov]

I'm not asking for a championship, I'm not asking for a Finals appearance like what Lebron did with his cast in 2009. Heck I wasn't even asking for a playoffs appearance like what Westbrook did this year. All I was asking for is 30-40 wins, something that Davis/Cousins achieved with an incrementally better team, how is that asking for the GOAT? How can you say that has nothing to do with a max contract when everything we've agreed on essentially states that he's being overpaid and he's not living up to the standards that he's being held on? When you're being paid the max, you have to perform like the max otherwise the whole team suffers not just at the present season but in the future as it hinders your cap space.

Something you're not understanding from my point-of-view is that I'm not saying that Lopez is a bad player, I'm not saying that he's some sort of scrub. At the end of the day he's in the top 5-10 in a lot of the franchises record and is even top at some of them. He's been a great ambassador and servant for this team throughout his tenure here. But he is a very flawed player, and one that does not have a high impact on winning, that's not a criticism, that's just how he turned out as a player. So, when you're occupying a huge chunk of the cap space, you have to back that up and perform what your salary says you are worth, and quite frankly he didn't.

I think these are 2 important points:

1) no one is calling lopez terrible. just flawed and questioning his impact on wins. and no one is asking him to drag terrible teams to the playoffs. just drag them beyond the worst reconrd in the league or to 30 wins.

2) his contract matters. yes not all max guys are superstars. but when a team give you back to back max deals i think you are obligated to put in the work to become the best player possible. not just do whats required. after Lopez fouth season 3 things happed:
-he broke his foot
-he was given a max deal
-his improvement leveled off the next 5 years

So either his foot prevented him from getting better or he got paid and decided he didnt need to improve anymore or he just simply isnt driven to be great. or some combination of all of those combined with coaches who couldnt get more out of him.

[MrDollarBills]

I do agree about the constant coaching turnover and garbage PG play having a negative impact on Brook. That's something that gets overlooked. this franchise has been a **** show management and coaching wise for most of his time here.

I thought Atkinson's usage of Lopez was pretty solid, Brook had an excellent season under him and expanded his game. No one could have predicted Lopez becoming a reliable 3pt thread. That was a legit weapon for us most nights, Lopez catching and shooting from down town....I wouldn't undersell that as him just being used as a floor spacer.

Yeah... Lopez has had alot of coaches. and a couple years of backup level point gaurds.

at the same time, how much does that excuse? How many of those 8 coahces tried to improve his rebounding? his defense?

When you give lopez a max contract, does he have a responsibility to put in a ton of extra work to improve those things?

Compare lopez to demarcus cousins. Cousins. Cousins had 6 coaches in 7 years and also played in a crap show of an organization. He had 5 different point gaurds (Collison, rondo, thomas, tyreke evans, beno udrih). like lopez the times he was surrounded by talent it was fringe allstar and misfitting pieces.

cousins was able to improve drastically and become a perrenial allstar and 25/11 player.

Cousins drastically improved his scoring: 14,18,17, 22, 24, 26, 27

He improved his rebounding: 8,11,10,12,13, 12,11

He improved his offense creation/assists: 2.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.5, 4.5

He improved his shooting efficiency/TS%: 48, 49, 52, 55, 54, 54, 56

He improved his defense (DWS/RPM/RAPM up year over year)


So while yeah... the enviornment for lopez was dog turd until last year... this is a 9 year veteran who played on 2 max contracts. maybe he doesnt drastically improve or carry us to the playoffs. but i think its fair to question if he should h ave improved more then he has.... especiallly in rebounding and defense. or to maybe lead awful teams to 25 or 28 wins instead of 10,19,20,21.

Lopez improved from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. from there he really leveled off. he improved his efficinecy a bit... but his numbers from year 3 arent much different from years 5,6,7,8,9. he got injured in year 4... i wonder if that had some mental effects to where he is hesitant. but his rebounding went down from year to year. his first 2 years he was an ok rebounder. then he became a really bad rebounder, then a poor one, then back to an awful rebounder.

I can't excuse Brook for at times passiveness on both ends, having to be benched by Hollins to light a fire under him and the way his rebounding took a nose dive after his 1st season.

I think the lack of improvement overall are both on player and the team itself. Atkinson was the first coach that really pushed him to add something else to his game or had the vision enough to do it.

[Prokorov]

I do agree about the constant coaching turnover and garbage PG play having a negative impact on Brook. That's something that gets overlooked. this franchise has been a **** show management and coaching wise for most of his time here.

I thought Atkinson's usage of Lopez was pretty solid, Brook had an excellent season under him and expanded his game. No one could have predicted Lopez becoming a reliable 3pt thread. That was a legit weapon for us most nights, Lopez catching and shooting from down town....I wouldn't undersell that as him just being used as a floor spacer.

Yeah... Lopez has had alot of coaches. and a couple years of backup level point gaurds.

at the same time, how much does that excuse? How many of those 8 coahces tried to improve his rebounding? his defense?

When you give lopez a max contract, does he have a responsibility to put in a ton of extra work to improve those things?

Compare lopez to demarcus cousins. Cousins. Cousins had 6 coaches in 7 years and also played in a crap show of an organization. He had 5 different point gaurds (Collison, rondo, thomas, tyreke evans, beno udrih). like lopez the times he was surrounded by talent it was fringe allstar and misfitting pieces.

cousins was able to improve drastically and become a perrenial allstar and 25/11 player.

Cousins drastically improved his scoring: 14,18,17, 22, 24, 26, 27

He improved his rebounding: 8,11,10,12,13, 12,11

He improved his offense creation/assists: 2.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.5, 4.5

He improved his shooting efficiency/TS%: 48, 49, 52, 55, 54, 54, 56

He improved his defense (DWS/RPM/RAPM up year over year)


So while yeah... the enviornment for lopez was dog turd until last year... this is a 9 year veteran who played on 2 max contracts. maybe he doesnt drastically improve or carry us to the playoffs. but i think its fair to question if he should h ave improved more then he has.... especiallly in rebounding and defense. or to maybe lead awful teams to 25 or 28 wins instead of 10,19,20,21.

Lopez improved from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. from there he really leveled off. he improved his efficinecy a bit... but his numbers from year 3 arent much different from years 5,6,7,8,9. he got injured in year 4... i wonder if that had some mental effects to where he is hesitant. but his rebounding went down from year to year. his first 2 years he was an ok rebounder. then he became a really bad rebounder, then a poor one, then back to an awful rebounder.

I can't excuse Brook for at times passiveness on both ends, having to be benched by Hollins to light a fire under him and the way his rebounding took a nose dive after his 1st season.

I think the lack of improvement overall are both on player and the team itself. Atkinson was the first coach that really pushed him to add something else to his game or had the vision enough to do it.

Did atkinson really get more out of brook then other coaches? or did he simply instruct him to step back a few feet on those long two pointers?

give kenny credit for seeing how bad of a shot the long two i s... but wasnt brook always a solid shooter from the perimeter?

other then that change what did brook improve on? rebounding? defense? scoring? Efficiency? free throws?

i think kenny more got brook playing smarter then he did get brook to actually improve in his weak areas or strengthen things

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah... Lopez has had alot of coaches. and a couple years of backup level point gaurds.

at the same time, how much does that excuse? How many of those 8 coahces tried to improve his rebounding? his defense?

When you give lopez a max contract, does he have a responsibility to put in a ton of extra work to improve those things?

Compare lopez to demarcus cousins. Cousins. Cousins had 6 coaches in 7 years and also played in a crap show of an organization. He had 5 different point gaurds (Collison, rondo, thomas, tyreke evans, beno udrih). like lopez the times he was surrounded by talent it was fringe allstar and misfitting pieces.

cousins was able to improve drastically and become a perrenial allstar and 25/11 player.

Cousins drastically improved his scoring: 14,18,17, 22, 24, 26, 27

He improved his rebounding: 8,11,10,12,13, 12,11

He improved his offense creation/assists: 2.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3.5, 4.5

He improved his shooting efficiency/TS%: 48, 49, 52, 55, 54, 54, 56

He improved his defense (DWS/RPM/RAPM up year over year)


So while yeah... the enviornment for lopez was dog turd until last year... this is a 9 year veteran who played on 2 max contracts. maybe he doesnt drastically improve or carry us to the playoffs. but i think its fair to question if he should h ave improved more then he has.... especiallly in rebounding and defense. or to maybe lead awful teams to 25 or 28 wins instead of 10,19,20,21.

Lopez improved from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. from there he really leveled off. he improved his efficinecy a bit... but his numbers from year 3 arent much different from years 5,6,7,8,9. he got injured in year 4... i wonder if that had some mental effects to where he is hesitant. but his rebounding went down from year to year. his first 2 years he was an ok rebounder. then he became a really bad rebounder, then a poor one, then back to an awful rebounder.

I can't excuse Brook for at times passiveness on both ends, having to be benched by Hollins to light a fire under him and the way his rebounding took a nose dive after his 1st season.

I think the lack of improvement overall are both on player and the team itself. Atkinson was the first coach that really pushed him to add something else to his game or had the vision enough to do it.

Did atkinson really get more out of brook then other coaches? or did he simply instruct him to step back a few feet on those long two pointers?

give kenny credit for seeing how bad of a shot the long two i s... but wasnt brook always a solid shooter from the perimeter?

other then that change what did brook improve on? rebounding? defense? scoring? Efficiency? free throws?

i think kenny more got brook playing smarter then he did get brook to actually improve in his weak areas or strengthen things

Playing smarter mostly. I stopped looking for "improvement" a few seasons ago from Brook. He's about to be 30 after all, guys pretty much are who they are as players past 25.

[Rainyy]

all I wanted was a 30-40 win season with him leading, like what Davis/Cousins accomplished, how is that unfair?

Follow me here:

- Anthony Davis has consistently had 30-35 win seasons ( I believe he won ~42 one year)
- Anthony Davis is a Top 5 player in the NBA
- Anthony Davis has had a far better supporting cast than Lopez the last three years

Therefore, if you want Lopez to win 30-40 games, you are necessarily arguing that Lopez play better than Anthony Davis. Since Davis is already Top 5, you're expecting Lopez to be on of the best players in the NBA.

As much the Pelicans sucked, Lopez played with d-leaguers. At least Davis got to play with some decent point guards between injuries and had a few NBA players on his team.

As for the max contract: while we both agree it isn't just reserved for superstars, do you agree with my assertion that a Top 30 player deserves the max? That simply is how the market works.

The follow up question is: where do you rank Lopez?

I'd remind you that every time Lopez wasn't surrounded with d-leaguers, the team made the playoffs. You can argue the Nets had a losing record to behind a 17 game sample in the 13-14 season, but I believe they would have made the playoffs that year with a healthy Lopez. There were a lot of injury/coaching problems early in that season.

also the team did try to build around him

We not once tried to build around him. How many superstars are dangled at the trade deadline and off-season virtually every season of their career?

Because management was inept, they continually tried to build around Joe Johnson.

The one good thing they did for Lopez was acquiring Deron Williams. Other than that, management continually went after ball dominant, isolation players, and players who couldn't stretch the 4. We virtually never ran the PnR, despite it being Lopez' greatest strength.

Hollins tried to force Lopez into the Marc Gasol role despite it making zero sense. The list goes on. How can you possibly say we built around Lopez?

But unfortunately it just didn't pan out and we can't play these hypothetical games or scenarios that never existed.

If Lopez shared the experiences of the average NBA player, I might agree.

But Lopez's career trajectory has inarguably been extreme and bizarre. How many other franchises have ever had 9 different coaches in that time span? How many franchises have fielded so many d-league caliber rosters (outside of Lopez)?

Lopez, as I have argued for a while, has been the unluckiest player in today' NBA, quite possibly the unluckiest player to ever play in the NBA. Hypotheticals are important because Lopez has been an exceptional case, and we need to ask ourselves what would have happened if he wasn't struck by lightning thirty times in a 10 year span.

This is what he is as a player, a highly-skilled offensive player but a bigger liability on the defensive end.

Wouldn't this imply he is a net negative player if his defensive liabilities outweigh his offensive contributions? I think the defensive criticisms of Lopez are so hilariously overblown, and I agree he struggles against the PnR.

Something you're not understanding from my point-of-view is that I'm not saying that Lopez is a bad player, I'm not saying that he's some sort of scrub.

Trust me, I know that, but I guarantee you our valuation are very, very, very different. I'd say any assessment that has Lopez below an overall "good" player (let's say Top 60) is criminal. I think people can reasonably disagree after that threshold.

[vincecarter4pres]

Watch on YouTube

[treiz]

Follow me here:

- Anthony Davis has consistently had 30-35 win seasons ( I believe he won ~42 one year)
- Anthony Davis is a Top 5 player in the NBA
- Anthony Davis has had a far better supporting cast than Lopez the last three years

Therefore, if you want Lopez to win 30-40 games, you are necessarily arguing that Lopez play better than Anthony Davis. Since Davis is already Top 5, you're expecting Lopez to be on of the best players in the NBA.

As much the Pelicans sucked, Lopez played with d-leaguers. At least Davis got to play with some decent point guards between injuries and had a few NBA players on his team.

As for the max contract: while we both agree it isn't just reserved for superstars, do you agree with my assertion that a Top 30 player deserves the max? That simply is how the market works.

The follow up question is: where do you rank Lopez?

I'd remind you that every time Lopez wasn't surrounded with d-leaguers, the team made the playoffs. You can argue the Nets had a losing record to behind a 17 game sample in the 13-14 season, but I believe they would have made the playoffs that year with a healthy Lopez. There were a lot of injury/coaching problems early in that season.

But top 5 (I personally wouldn't put him there but if that's what you believe so be it) doesn't mean he's the GOAT does it? Like you previously claimed. And well considering the fact that he got paid the max TWICE and was paid to be the face of the franchise TWICE, damn straight I wanted him to perform as one of the best players in the NBA, as should every Nets fan. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

You make it seem like Davis/Cousins didn't play with d-leaguers at some point in their careers. Lopez got about the same quality teams as Davis/Cousins did, a fringe all star here and there, a bunch of role players and majority d-leaguers. So trying to say that Lopez played with a much worser roster is an exaggeration to say the least. Yes Davis did play with some good players, but so did Lopez. No I don't agree with that assertion and it doesn't matter how the market works, if you're paid as one of the best players in the NBA, then you have to perform like you're one of the best players in the NBA otherwise it's a blown investment. Just look at the year-long debate on the board with the whole Porter situation and how people are skeptical about it.

Now, what about Demarcus Cousins? Where would you rank him? I'll refer you to the post Prok made about Cousins. Why did you completely ignore Cousins and his Sacramento Kings team? Why couldn't Lopez do what Cousins did and improve year-by-year whilst playing with arguably the same quality of roster and having 6 coaches in 7 years? Why was Cousins able to do it and get those 30 wins and not Lopez?

We not once tried to build around him. How many superstars are dangled at the trade deadline and off-season virtually every season of their career?

Because management was inept, they continually tried to build around Joe Johnson.

The one good thing they did for Lopez was acquiring Deron Williams. Other than that, management continually went after ball dominant, isolation players, and players who couldn't stretch the 4. We virtually never ran the PnR, despite it being Lopez' greatest strength.

Hollins tried to force Lopez into the Marc Gasol role despite it making zero sense. The list goes on. How can you possibly say we built around Lopez?

Did you forget about the post Kidd-VC era? The trade for Devin Harris? Courtney Lee? How was that not trying to build around Lopez? We were constantly in the lottery around that time and had some promising draft picks that didn't pan out (T-Will for example). To say we didn't try to build around Lopez is absurd, just because it didn't pan out as well as we would've wanted doesn't mean they didn't try to build around him. Devin Harris was an up and coming player at the time and he even made an All-Star in 2009 (which was really surprising), same goes for Courtney Lee but IIRC he was more touted as a good role player like he is now. Hindsight is not a very helpful tool here.

Now, was management inept in building around Lopez, sure 100% can agree to that. But to say they didn't try is another thing.

It also doesn't help when he stopped improving after year 3 just after he broke his foot. Seriously, just check his numbers year per year. Despite getting 2 max contracts, he never actually improved in those 2 contracts apart from maybe this year when he increased his range. That could've been due to multiple factors, but it still doesn't help a team when after your 4th year in the league you've essentially peaked and are getting paid the max.

If Lopez shared the experiences of the average NBA player, I might agree.

But Lopez's career trajectory has inarguably been extreme and bizarre. How many other franchises have ever had 9 different coaches in that time span? How many franchises have fielded so many d-league caliber rosters (outside of Lopez)?

Lopez, as I have argued for a while, has been the unluckiest player in today' NBA, quite possibly the unluckiest player to ever play in the NBA. Hypotheticals are important because Lopez has been an exceptional case, and we need to ask ourselves what would have happened if he wasn't struck by lightning thirty times in a 10 year span.

But see I read this and while I agree that Lopez is unlucky, you are just making excuses for the guy. Again I have to refer to the post Prok made about Cousins. Why couldn't Lopez up his game after year 3? Why couldn't he become a better rebounder? Why couldn't he learn how to box out better? Why couldn't he get stronger? Why couldn't he improve his lateral quickness by even a smidge? His FT %? His conditioning? Now I know you want to argue "coaches" or something like that, but he's an intelligent, grown person. Couldn't he have taken it upon himself to improve in these aspects without the coaches holding his hand?

Unluckiest player to ever play in the NBA is quite simply a massive hyperbole. You're saying he's more unlucky than players who never even managed to get a decent amount of years under their belt or hit their primes? Players like Greg Oden? Brandon Roy? Even when you compare it to today's NBA, how can you say he's been more unlucky than Cousins? Who virtually had the same career pattern up to last year? Or what about Porzingis with the nonsense going over in NY? You could even make a case about Blake, who despite having a good team with the Clippers year after year, they always seemed to be hit with a key injury every year in the playoffs.

Wouldn't this imply he is a net negative player if his defensive liabilities outweigh his offensive contributions? I think the defensive criticisms of Lopez are so hilariously overblown, and I agree he struggles against the PnR.

Well if you want to take as that go for it. There's a reason why this team has always been below-average to bad on defense during Lopez' tenure here. So the criticism of his defense is just fine, especially with the PnR being such a staple in the NBA.

[ChokeFasncists]

Brook is surely the better scorer, but Lin is better all around, with little liability. That's the main reason "more wins coming as a consequence of the latter". Also, Lin plays particularly well in the crunch time, whereas Lopez, not quite.

The difference between Lin and a d-league caliber point-guard is massive, which is why we saw so much improvement. But I'd be careful confusing that difference with Lin himself being some great player (I like him quite a bit, but I wouldn't put him Top 10 at his position).

Lopez is a Top 15 scorer in the NBA, offered rare floor-spacing from the 5, and most importantly, forced constant double-teams and scheming from opposing offenses that opened up the court for the rest of our players. It's hard comparing different positions, but I can see in no way Jeremy outperforming him on the offensive end.

Agreed. Except that how is he a top 15 scorer when he averages around 20ppg, ranked 30th last year and he has never averaged more? (PG, Butler KD are around 15) If he were better at passing out of the double team he would have been more effective in that end.

Defensively, Lin is better for his position than Lopez is for his. One could argue Lin's defensive impact is slightly mitigated because PG is the least important defensive position; conversely, one could say as center is the most important defensive positions, insofar as Lopez struggled in that area, he was even more of a liability. I personally think people were overly harsh on Lopez's defense and I would call him above-league average, whereas I'd call Lin "good to very good" defensively. If we call that a win for Jeremy, it still doesn't compensate for Lopez's substantial offensive advantage.

Agreed. But then there is the element of passing/rebounding for a small and big. Lin is a big plus leading/getting teammates involved whereas rebounding is a weakness for Lopez as a 7 footer.

I also don't really pay attention to "crunch time." 2 points in the 1st quarter is worth the same as 2 points in the 4th quarter. It's mostly an aesthetic consideration.

Lets say if you've got someone who's a 79% ft shooter but makes all the clutch FTs and another that's 80% but misses most of the clutch FTs. Which one would you prefer?

Lets say Brook averages 6 pts for each of the first three quarters and then almost 3 points for the last to get to his almost 21 points. If he averages 6 pts in the last quarter, he would be averaging 24, that'd be a big difference. It's possible that he suffers from poor stamina.

OTOH, Lin would try to score a little at first, then try to get teammates involved, in crunch time when the team needs points and the defenses are tight, he performs well under pressure and make clutch plays.

If, as you said, it's really true that Brook is one of the most unlucky NBA player, Lin getting injured was definitely a serious manifestation of that. What might have been!?

[NyCeEvO]

Of course the team is important, but when you compare Lopez' career to Davis/Cousins for example, who have managed to win 30-40 games despite having some poor teams around them, then at some point you have to stop making excuses.

There are different degrees of "poor teams around them."

- The 2009-2010 team was arguably the worst NBA ever assembled. Lopez was the lone talented player on a team of d-leaguers.

- The 2010-2012 seasons and the 2014-2016 seasons also all ranked as some of the worst teams constructed this decade. Again, full of d-leaguers.

- The Cousins and Davis had relatively bad supporting casts, but the Nets have had FAR worse supporting casts the last three years. Lopez's teammates make Cousins' teammates look like the Warriors.

- The clown parade of coaches has not helped this situation.

Granted, Lopez plays in the East, but unlike Cousins, he has actually carried his team into the playoffs as by far the best player. During that 14-15 season we had a worse roster than the Kings and we had one of the worst coaches to ever coach in the NBA (Hollins). Despite Hollins sabotaging us for half the season, Lopez played ridiculously after the All-Star game once the game was tailored to him, and he single-handedly carried us into the playoffs, and was a big reason we played a competitive series against one a Top 2 team in the East and a vastly superior team.

The fact that Anthony Davis has been stuck in 30-34 win purgatory, despite being a Top 3-5 player in the NBA over the last few years, and having a better team than Lopez, should tell you how ridiculously unfair your expectations for Lopez are. It's really hard to win with horrible teammates and you cannot overstate how extreme and unlucky Lopez's situation has been.

While I wouldn't put Lopez in the same class as Cousins and Davis (although I've questioned Davis' projected and now actual impact since the day he was drafted), I agree with the general sentiment that only the elite of the elite NBA players can win 30+ games when surrounded by hot garbage teams.

You bring up a good point about Lopez's teammates against the teammates of other players. I think a lot of people underrate how important fit is to a team's success. A team that works hard, fits well, but isn't supremely talented often beats out teams that are more talented individually but fit together poorly.

Moreover, I will remind you that the max contract in the NBA is not reserved for superstars. That simply isn't how the payscale works. When I am judging a max contract, I am not expecting the player to be at least Top 10. I am happy if the player is Top 30-40 or better. Lopez was better than this so I was fine with the max.

Where was the outrage over Joe Johnson's max contract? He was the worst player in the NBA for the first half of 14-15 and an absolute cancer every year in Brooklyn.

The outrage was spewing from me.

I loathed Joe Johnson's contract when he was with ATL. When King made the trade for him, I saw his good spot-up shooting stats and hoped that he would conform his playing style to what would be best for the Nets. When I saw that he wasn't going to change, my hope turned back to frustration.

I can't tell you how many times I typed "Joe Johnson" and "cap killing contract" in the same paragraphs during that era, but I was often rebuffed with statements citing that Joe wasn't the one responsible for him being paid that money...that was ATL's fault. I was a huge detractor of JJ throughout his Nets tenure. His game winning shots don't override the pedestrian level effort and production we got from him over the years. I would've been upset if he made $15mil/season, but the fact that he was the league's highest paid player and inhibited us from having cap and asset flexibility was gut wrenching.

[ChokeFasncists]

Bogut also gives the Lakers insurance against the health of Lopez. Lopez, 29, has been remarkably durable in recent years, appearing in at least 72 games four out of the past five seasons. However, he has dealt with back issues this summer that could cause him to miss part of the preseason.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/18/andrew-bogut-to-sign-1-year-deal-with-lakers/

Is he gonna be coming off the bench?

[Paradise]

Bogut also gives the Lakers insurance against the health of Lopez. Lopez, 29, has been remarkably durable in recent years, appearing in at least 72 games four out of the past five seasons. However, he has dealt with back issues this summer that could cause him to miss part of the preseason.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/18/andrew-bogut-to-sign-1-year-deal-with-lakers/

Is he gonna be coming off the bench?

Bogut will come off the bench unless Brook misses opening night.

Brook had back spasms during the 2015 preseason. I think he missed the first two opening night games with a hurting back but has never really missed time for injuries since.

[ChokeFasncists]

Bogut also gives the Lakers insurance against the health of Lopez. Lopez, 29, has been remarkably durable in recent years, appearing in at least 72 games four out of the past five seasons. However, he has dealt with back issues this summer that could cause him to miss part of the preseason.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/18/andrew-bogut-to-sign-1-year-deal-with-lakers/

Is he gonna be coming off the bench?

Bogut will come off the bench unless Brook misses opening night.

Brook had back spasms during the 2015 preseason. I think he missed the first two opening night games with a hurting back but has never really missed time for injuries since.

Cool thx.

Did you read it somewhere or just speculation?

It makes a lot of sense to play Bogut as token defensive starter, ala GSW. He's familiar with Luke and now that Brook is gonna miss camp and preseason, it's even more likely.

[Andy123]

Brook is a real good player opposite of bargnani where bargs don't like the dirty work , Brook does the dirty work sample rebounding ... Too bad nets have to lose him.. but it's a business.

[Prokorov]

Brook is a real good player opposite of bargnani where bargs don't like the dirty work , Brook does the dirty work sample rebounding ... Too bad nets have to lose him.. but it's a business.

Brook didnt do any dirty work and last year had a rebounding season worse then anything bargani has showed. The nets didnt "lose" him. they got rid of him because that was what was by far the best move for the franchise both short term and long term.