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The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II

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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#61 » by Prokorov » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:03 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:i'll even take 37% 3PT tbh if we want him to be like Pierce. But I agree, if he isn't hitting his threes then he's not worth the money. next year we need to see an uptick in efficiency. this is why i point to his games where he may have had 16-18 points but a solid amount of assists, few turnovers and good efficiency from downtown. those were the games where he was at his best and led us to wins. that's the guy who is worth the money. the games where he drops 20+ points but on mediocre efficiency and high turnovers? that isn't worth a contract extension.


We are in a REALLY bad spot with Russell. He is due an extension but has not shown many flashes towards becoming that perrenial all-star type or even a beal level guy (thats not all on him, injury/bad enviornmentin LA). But we would need to extend him on blind faith if we did that this offseason.

if we dont extend him we run a few big risks. he showns improvement enough to get the max but not enough to where he shows he can be a fringe all-star and you end up giving 5/130 who isnt good enough to be a top 2 playeron a perrenial playoff team (see: aaron gordon, otto porter, zack levine).

If he doesnt show improvement, now you are stuck at the deadline with a guy you need to trade for 25 cents on the dollar because you waited, or end up losing him for nothing in restricted free agency or very worst case scenario you match 5/130 max offer on a guy who you know wont earn it (beal/porter or even worst).

So for me, whether he improves or not, id trade him now for what i can get. not because im giving up on him at 22.... but because when you look at the risk/reward and how early we still are in the rebuild that makes most sense. there is a ton of risk and the reward slice is small and requires alot of blind faith.

he can easily take a harden like leap. curry and other guys who ran into injuries early bloomed closer to 25.

for me it doesnt matter. move him for what you can and keep this rebuild churning. I like levert as a PG and alot of the top guys in the next few drafts are primary ball handlers.
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#62 » by MrDollarBills » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:29 pm

If the Nets traded him under that rationale I have no issue with it. It's a precarious situation to be in. No one knows with this kid how it will turn out.

Frankly, I think the Nets should not offer him a large deal regardless of what happens next season. Similar to what the Warriors did with Steph, frankly I'd make Russell have to play his way into the big bucks instead of rewarding uncertainty with blind faith.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#63 » by Roy Tarpley » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:40 pm

Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#64 » by MrDollarBills » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:57 pm

Roy Tarpley wrote:Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87


I know you meant to use those names to disparage him, but if Russell shoots 36-38% like Van Exel and Martin from downtown that's actually a good thing :lol:
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#65 » by Roy Tarpley » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:48 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
Roy Tarpley wrote:Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87


I know you meant to use those names to disparage him, but if Russell shoots 36-38% like Van Exel and Martin from downtown that's actually a good thing :lol:


I was actually just putting up the numbers of two people who came to mind as "stars" that didn't really lead their team to the highest levels. Martin's numbers are actually damn good while Van Exel's are okay but his FG and FT are a little on the low.

This suggests to me that Dlo is almost already at Van Exel's level and not yet at Martin's, and they're not even true superstars -- though they overachieved since Van Exel was a 37th pick and Martin was a 26th pick. Russell, as a #2 pick, really needs to make a leap next year and then even more.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#66 » by SpeedyG » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:02 am

Roy Tarpley wrote:Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87


You need to change your definition of stars if NVE and Martin are your definitions of stars. Clearly, the expectation if we're going to build around Russell is higher than either of those players.

You're talking about an undersized shoot first PG (before shoot first PG became cool) and the other is mostly a shooter who can't create for others.

Those are secondary/third level players you hope caris and/or Rondae get to while Russell achives higher.

Besides, if "championship" is your barometer for a successful star, then you might be setting it pretty high.

Webber in his prime was clearly a star, one that is worth building around but he never got to the Finals. Deron in Utah was worth building a team around, no finals. Hell CP3 hasnt gotten there yet and clearly hes worth the label of a star
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#67 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:04 am

Roy Tarpley wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Roy Tarpley wrote:Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87


I know you meant to use those names to disparage him, but if Russell shoots 36-38% like Van Exel and Martin from downtown that's actually a good thing :lol:


I was actually just putting up the numbers of two people who came to mind as "stars" that didn't really lead their team to the highest levels. Martin's numbers are actually damn good while Van Exel's are okay but his FG and FT are a little on the low.

This suggests to me that Dlo is almost already at Van Exel's level and not yet at Martin's, and they're not even true superstars -- though they overachieved since Van Exel was a 37th pick and Martin was a 26th pick. Russell, as a #2 pick, really needs to make a leap next year and then even more.


I agree that Russell needs to make a leap next season.

I don't remember Van Exel or Martin being considered star level players.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#68 » by vincecarter4pres » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:32 am

MrDollarBills wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:
TinmanZBoy wrote:
DLo has been a good solider.... this is the strength of this team.... I expect Dlo will improve a lot next season, just like what Harris, RHJ, LeVert make this season.... next season is crucial for her and the organization too

I agree he's been a good soldier. I hope he makes that jump. My attitude concerns aren't with him causing waves, at least not thus far, it's more of what Roy was saying, a false star. He mentions Antoine Walker, again for me, JR Smith comes to mind minus a lot of the actual craziness, or recently I was thinking he reminds me of White Chocolate a little something.


JR Smith actually killed one of his friends and has rarely been a good soldier anywhere he has went. even comparing him to Jason Williams is a bit much because Williams had far more attitude issues than Russell has had -here- with us. These comparisons imo are unwarranted. You're comparing him to two stoners, one of whom actually got someone killed in a manslaughter car crash, the other who yelled racist slurs at asian fans during a game. come on. Russell's worst behavior was the fact that he snitched out Nick Young who is a man in his 30s who preys on 19 year old girls or worse. i don't care about that. Comparing him to JR Smith, who is legit a seriously garbage human being is way over the top.

I should have been clearer, but when I'm saying JR and Jason Williams I wasn't talking about his attitude issues off court, I was saying his actual style of play, approach to the game, inflated sense of on-court self-worth and itchy trigger finger, unfocused turnover prone game, etc. Reckless and careless ego driven play and/or poor decision making abilities, especially when caught up in the moment.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#69 » by vincecarter4pres » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:34 am

SpeedyG wrote:
Roy Tarpley wrote:Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87


You need to change your definition of stars if NVE and Martin are your definitions of stars. Clearly, the expectation if we're going to build around Russell is higher than either of those players.

You're talking about an undersized shoot first PG (before shoot first PG became cool) and the other is mostly a shooter who can't create for others.

Those are secondary/third level players you hope caris and/or Rondae get to while Russell achives higher.

Besides, if "championship" is your barometer for a successful star, then you might be setting it pretty high.

Webber in his prime was clearly a star, one that is worth building around but he never got to the Finals. Deron in Utah was worth building a team around, no finals. Hell CP3 hasnt gotten there yet and clearly hes worth the label of a star

Reading between the lines the way I'm seeing it, is Roy is saying those 2 guys aren't even true stars and yet Russell isn't even at their level yet, so he's light years away from a real jump, because he has to take a sizable leap just to be a false star.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#70 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:41 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:I agree he's been a good soldier. I hope he makes that jump. My attitude concerns aren't with him causing waves, at least not thus far, it's more of what Roy was saying, a false star. He mentions Antoine Walker, again for me, JR Smith comes to mind minus a lot of the actual craziness, or recently I was thinking he reminds me of White Chocolate a little something.


JR Smith actually killed one of his friends and has rarely been a good soldier anywhere he has went. even comparing him to Jason Williams is a bit much because Williams had far more attitude issues than Russell has had -here- with us. These comparisons imo are unwarranted. You're comparing him to two stoners, one of whom actually got someone killed in a manslaughter car crash, the other who yelled racist slurs at asian fans during a game. come on. Russell's worst behavior was the fact that he snitched out Nick Young who is a man in his 30s who preys on 19 year old girls or worse. i don't care about that. Comparing him to JR Smith, who is legit a seriously garbage human being is way over the top.

I should have been clearer, but when I'm saying JR and Jason Williams I wasn't talking about his attitude issues off court, I was saying his actual style of play, approach to the game, inflated sense of on-court self-worth and itchy trigger finger, unfocused turnover prone game, etc. Reckless and careless ego driven play and/or poor decision making abilities, especially when caught up in the moment.


I understand now...i would still say that Russell's bball iq, while at times baffling, still is way beyond JR Smith's. JR Smith is a **** ing moron. Russell is nowhere near that kind of stupidity on or off the court.

Jason Williams cleaned up his game when he hit his late 20s. The issue with Russell is, we need him to clean up his game now, and not at age 27. Russell has to stop being careless and start taking calculated risk instead of making passes that will look the hottest on a highlight mixtape.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#71 » by SpeedyG » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:51 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:
SpeedyG wrote:
Roy Tarpley wrote:Two other "stars" that didn't lead to championship level:

Nick Van Exel: 14//3/7 on 41/36/79
Kevin Martin: 17/3/2/on 44/38/87


You need to change your definition of stars if NVE and Martin are your definitions of stars. Clearly, the expectation if we're going to build around Russell is higher than either of those players.

You're talking about an undersized shoot first PG (before shoot first PG became cool) and the other is mostly a shooter who can't create for others.

Those are secondary/third level players you hope caris and/or Rondae get to while Russell achives higher.

Besides, if "championship" is your barometer for a successful star, then you might be setting it pretty high.

Webber in his prime was clearly a star, one that is worth building around but he never got to the Finals. Deron in Utah was worth building a team around, no finals. Hell CP3 hasnt gotten there yet and clearly hes worth the label of a star

Reading between the lines the way I'm seeing it, is Roy is saying those 2 guys aren't even true stars and yet Russell isn't even at their level yet, so he's light years away from a real jump, because he has to take a sizable leap just to be a false star.


If that's what he's trying to indicate, then perhaps. I'm on the record as one of the more hesitant about Russell's extension (shoot i was probably one of the first ones to bring it up as far as cap implications and future planning in this forum).

But mentioning NVE and Martin is ignoring skill set...

Neither are stars...but what if you gave Martin NVE's dribbling and planning? Or NVE Martin's size?

Because that package is already there in D-Lo, and an even better vision/passer than Nick...you just don't see the whole thing consistently.

So that's the real litmus test. Can he do it consistently offensively? If he does, that's one jump.

If he brings other things to the table (better rebounding, improved defense, both of which we started seeing late in season), then that's the next jump.

If that was the point of his comparison, it's a very flawed one.

A Jamal Crawford or Jason Terry one would have been more appropriate....guys who were not true PGs but with decent size, can go hot/cold shooting (but ridiculously hot when hot), can score off dribble and not just catch/shoot guys, and often considered liability on defense (until much later in careers when they are now somewhat decent at it).

That's basically Russell right now is in that discovery phase whether he's a legit #1 offense star that will round out his game, or just a 6th man (because he is too high risk and inconsistent for a true lead role).

But again, only 22. I don't think he gets to where we want him to be (though we hope he does), certainly not by the time when we have to commit to him long term). But I'm not gonna shut his door down completely either.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#72 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:48 am

^^pretty much where i stand. I see the need for improvement and the Nets should be hesitant on giving him big money. but the upside is too much to ignore especially if he can get his percentages up.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#73 » by Roy Tarpley » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:32 pm

SpeedyG wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:
SpeedyG wrote:
You need to change your definition of stars if NVE and Martin are your definitions of stars. Clearly, the expectation if we're going to build around Russell is higher than either of those players.

You're talking about an undersized shoot first PG (before shoot first PG became cool) and the other is mostly a shooter who can't create for others.

Those are secondary/third level players you hope caris and/or Rondae get to while Russell achives higher.

Besides, if "championship" is your barometer for a successful star, then you might be setting it pretty high.

Webber in his prime was clearly a star, one that is worth building around but he never got to the Finals. Deron in Utah was worth building a team around, no finals. Hell CP3 hasnt gotten there yet and clearly hes worth the label of a star

Reading between the lines the way I'm seeing it, is Roy is saying those 2 guys aren't even true stars and yet Russell isn't even at their level yet, so he's light years away from a real jump, because he has to take a sizable leap just to be a false star.


If that's what he's trying to indicate, then perhaps. I'm on the record as one of the more hesitant about Russell's extension (shoot i was probably one of the first ones to bring it up as far as cap implications and future planning in this forum).

But mentioning NVE and Martin is ignoring skill set...

Neither are stars...but what if you gave Martin NVE's dribbling and planning? Or NVE Martin's size?

Because that package is already there in D-Lo, and an even better vision/passer than Nick...you just don't see the whole thing consistently.

So that's the real litmus test. Can he do it consistently offensively? If he does, that's one jump.

If he brings other things to the table (better rebounding, improved defense, both of which we started seeing late in season), then that's the next jump.

If that was the point of his comparison, it's a very flawed one.

A Jamal Crawford or Jason Terry one would have been more appropriate....guys who were not true PGs but with decent size, can go hot/cold shooting (but ridiculously hot when hot), can score off dribble and not just catch/shoot guys, and often considered liability on defense (until much later in careers when they are now somewhat decent at it).

That's basically Russell right now is in that discovery phase whether he's a legit #1 offense star that will round out his game, or just a 6th man (because he is too high risk and inconsistent for a true lead role).

But again, only 22. I don't think he gets to where we want him to be (though we hope he does), certainly not by the time when we have to commit to him long term). But I'm not gonna shut his door down completely either.


vc4p has expressed my sentiment well.

NVE and Kevin Martin are not my definition of stars. The Lakers and Kings tried to present them that way to the fan base, but any long time student knows that they are not championship level players.

SpeedyG wrote:his trigger is so quick that he can pretty much get his shot off against anyone. That last statement is pretty much the definition of a superstar...the ability to get your shot against their best defender, whenever you want. Again, consistency is an issue, but you see it there.


One consideration may have actually been your definition of superstar -- "the ability to get your shot against their best defender, whenever you want." NVE and Martin could do this, so perhaps this isn't the best definition either.

Jamal Crawford was 15/2/3 on 41/35/86
Jason Terry was 13/2/4 on 44/38/85

Terry had solid numbers but was in between rotation player and star -- maybe Sam Cassell like. Crawford is more of a straight 6th man because low efficiency. But all of these guys, NVE, Martin, Crawford, Terry are generally on the same level -- solid rotation players bordering star-level. Dlo needs to get this level of efficiency first (not talking about absolute numbers since I think Dlo probably already has that level on a per 36 basis).

I don't think we're really disagreeing. We both think Dlo needs to become more consistent/efficient and make that leap next year.

Next year, I won't even be looking at his raw numbers because I know that if he plays 30 mpg, he'll naturally get around 18/5/5. His raw numbers won't go up that much more because (1) Kenny's system limits players to 32 mpg tops, and (2) the Nets have a balanced system that doesn't allow players to rack up huge averages.

I'll be looking at this percentages. If stays at around 41/35/76, that means no improvement, and maybe he's best suited for a 6th man/rotation role. Not sure if it needs to be on the Nets. If he can get it to 44/37/80 -- again, not asking a lot for a #2 pick when #26 pick Kevin Martin and #10 pick Jason Terry averaged this throughout their career -- then he might be worth keeping and developing further. I hope Dlo does this because I want the Nets to make the playoffs!
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#74 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:39 pm

^I hope for an uptick in his efficiency, cutting down TOs and that we miss the playoffs. we need a lottery pick more than we do a first round drubbing
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#75 » by Roy Tarpley » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:10 pm

^ But what if we miss the playoffs but still win mid-30 games? Does the few spots in the draft order (say, the difference between the 13th pick and the 15th pick) and the tiny chance of jumping up in the lottery outweigh the morale and experience boost of making and competing in the playoffs?

I don't know. Maybe.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#76 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:20 pm

Roy Tarpley wrote:^ But what if we miss the playoffs but still win mid-30 games? Does the few spots in the draft order (say, the difference between the 13th pick and the 15th pick) and the tiny chance of jumping up in the lottery outweigh the morale and experience boost of making and competing in the playoffs?

I don't know. Maybe.


Say we win 32-35 games next season, that could still qualify us for a pick as high 10-12. you can still draft a high upside talent at that spot, or even trade up. Lots of players including all star level players were picked outside of the top 5. The Greek Freak, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard etc were all picked later in the lottery. I say getting another high upside young player that we can control and develop is more important to this rebuild. than getting our skulls ground to dust by the 76ers

I expect the Nets to be on the cusp of the playoffs by 2019-2020 tbh. even then, if we miss it again, no biggie. we have to keep adding as much young talent as possible.
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#77 » by moonpie » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:03 pm

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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#78 » by kamaze » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:04 pm

vincecarter4pres wrote:I should have been clearer, but when I'm saying JR and Jason Williams I wasn't talking about his attitude issues off court, I was saying his actual style of play, approach to the game, inflated sense of on-court self-worth and itchy trigger finger, unfocused turnover prone game, etc. Reckless and careless ego driven play and/or poor decision making abilities, especially when caught up in the moment.


And his bad defense...He has to work his ass off this summer to fix some of his weaknesses.

Kenny Atkinson on Nets defense: "Part of it is personnel. We have to find the right personnel that fits out defense."


Atkinson: “(We must improve) our activity and general energy defensively. We were 30th in the league in turnovers. Part of that was we play a pretty conservative defense. And we fouled too much; if you’re not turning teams over you shouldn’t foul.” #Nets


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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#79 » by kamaze » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:07 pm

There's a thread on the General Board about him viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1698203

lamscott wrote:Hey Brooklyn Fans, any opinions on DLO?

Or is it the same as Laker fans opinion of DLO. Which are highly talented, slow footed, bad knees, streaky shooter, better off as a shooting guard, ok defense, good with the media, ok team player.

[/quote]
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Re: The Official D'Angelo Russell Thread II 

Post#80 » by steady » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:04 am

In response to Prok's comment - I think in this thread --, that PG defense no longer matters in this League.

https://www.theringer.com/nba-playoffs/2018/4/16/17242188/10-thoughts-2018-nba-playoff-weekend

Nice commentary on importance of Kyle Lowry and Jrue Holiday's stellar defense last weekend. Short version: "Don’t let anyone tell you that point guard defense doesn’t matter."

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