SpeedyG wrote: vincecarter4pres wrote:
You need to change your definition of stars if NVE and Martin are your definitions of stars. Clearly, the expectation if we're going to build around Russell is higher than either of those players.
You're talking about an undersized shoot first PG (before shoot first PG became cool) and the other is mostly a shooter who can't create for others.
Those are secondary/third level players you hope caris and/or Rondae get to while Russell achives higher.
Besides, if "championship" is your barometer for a successful star, then you might be setting it pretty high.
Webber in his prime was clearly a star, one that is worth building around but he never got to the Finals. Deron in Utah was worth building a team around, no finals. Hell CP3 hasnt gotten there yet and clearly hes worth the label of a star
Reading between the lines the way I'm seeing it, is Roy is saying those 2 guys aren't even true stars and yet Russell isn't even at their level yet, so he's light years away from a real jump, because he has to take a sizable leap just to be a false star.
If that's what he's trying to indicate, then perhaps. I'm on the record as one of the more hesitant about Russell's extension (shoot i was probably one of the first ones to bring it up as far as cap implications and future planning in this forum).
But mentioning NVE and Martin is ignoring skill set...
Neither are stars...but what if you gave Martin NVE's dribbling and planning? Or NVE Martin's size?
Because that package is already there in D-Lo, and an even better vision/passer than Nick...you just don't see the whole thing consistently.
So that's the real litmus test. Can he do it consistently offensively? If he does, that's one jump.
If he brings other things to the table (better rebounding, improved defense, both of which we started seeing late in season), then that's the next jump.
If that was the point of his comparison, it's a very flawed one.
A Jamal Crawford or Jason Terry one would have been more appropriate....guys who were not true PGs but with decent size, can go hot/cold shooting (but ridiculously hot when hot), can score off dribble and not just catch/shoot guys, and often considered liability on defense (until much later in careers when they are now somewhat decent at it).
That's basically Russell right now is in that discovery phase whether he's a legit #1 offense star that will round out his game, or just a 6th man (because he is too high risk and inconsistent for a true lead role).
But again, only 22. I don't think he gets to where we want him to be (though we hope he does), certainly not by the time when we have to commit to him long term). But I'm not gonna shut his door down completely either.
vc4p has expressed my sentiment well.
NVE and Kevin Martin are not my definition of stars. The Lakers and Kings tried to present them that way to the fan base, but any long time student knows that they are not championship level players.
SpeedyG wrote:his trigger is so quick that he can pretty much get his shot off against anyone. That last statement is pretty much the definition of a superstar...the ability to get your shot against their best defender, whenever you want. Again, consistency is an issue, but you see it there.
One consideration may have actually been your definition of superstar -- "the ability to get your shot against their best defender, whenever you want." NVE and Martin could do this, so perhaps this isn't the best definition either.
Jamal Crawford was 15/2/3 on 41/35/86
Jason Terry was 13/2/4 on 44/38/85
Terry had solid numbers but was in between rotation player and star -- maybe Sam Cassell like. Crawford is more of a straight 6th man because low efficiency. But all of these guys, NVE, Martin, Crawford, Terry are generally on the same level -- solid rotation players bordering star-level. Dlo needs to get this level of efficiency first (not talking about absolute numbers since I think Dlo probably already has that level on a per 36 basis).
I don't think we're really disagreeing. We both think Dlo needs to become more consistent/efficient and make that leap next year.
Next year, I won't even be looking at his raw numbers because I know that if he plays 30 mpg, he'll naturally get around 18/5/5. His raw numbers won't go up that much more because (1) Kenny's system limits players to 32 mpg tops, and (2) the Nets have a balanced system that doesn't allow players to rack up huge averages.
I'll be looking at this percentages. If stays at around 41/35/76, that means no improvement, and maybe he's best suited for a 6th man/rotation role. Not sure if it needs to be on the Nets. If he can get it to 44/37/80 -- again, not asking a lot for a #2 pick when #26 pick Kevin Martin and #10 pick Jason Terry averaged this throughout their career -- then he might be worth keeping and developing further. I hope Dlo does this because I want the Nets to make the playoffs!