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Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:13 pm
by Prokorov
ecuhus1981 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:brogdon is a downgrade from harris.... a sizeable one. and i dont like him with dlo cause then you have 2 gaurds neither with much quickness.

FINALLY! We agree on something!

Prokorov wrote:i love tobias.

Well, that didn't last long.

Don't get me wrong, I like Tobias Harris' game alot, in a vacuum. I would be over the moon to land him in free agency, IF he were willing to sign something like 4 years, $85mil. The problem is, he's going to get a max from someone. For a non-All-Star who shrinks in the postseason, that's caveat emptor.

In any case, he'll get the max or very close to it from PHI. They paid through the nose for him so they'll do everything they can to keep him. Other teams can offer 4 years, $141mil, and will. The Sixers can offer a 5th year, and will probably leverage that to negotiate him down to a lower per-year amount. I'm guessing 5 years, $160mil. Even if I could offer it to Tobias, I'd say no thanks.



to be honest giving him the max vs 21 million a year is irrelevant. in either case once we sign him all we can add is MLE talent beyod that....

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:23 am
by ecuhus1981
Prokorov wrote:to be honest giving him the max vs 21 million a year is irrelevant. in either case once we sign him all we can add is MLE talent beyod that....

That's patently short-sighted, and you know it. Signing Tobias to a 4-year deal at an average of$35mil/yr versus $21mil/yr is enormously different. To start, it would be the difference between keeping holds on guys like Ed, Rondae and un-guaranteed contracts like Shabazz. Beyond that, we have future signings to plan, and that $14mil difference will contribute to treading the cap, or swimming in the repeater tax.

Also, think of him as a future possible trade chip. With 19/6/2/1/1 production on average %'s, making $35mil/yr versus $21mil/yr could define whether he's a positive or a negative asset. You're the FIRST person to point out a player's onerous salary, and now you don't care? Even if we don't WANT to trade him now, it would be foolish to paint ourselves in a corner where he's viewed as a toxic asset due to his salary.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:18 am
by Prokorov
ecuhus1981 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:to be honest giving him the max vs 21 million a year is irrelevant. in either case once we sign him all we can add is MLE talent beyod that....

That's patently short-sighted, and you know it. Signing Tobias to a 4-year deal at an average of$35mil/yr versus $21mil/yr is enormously different. To start, it would be the difference between keeping holds on guys like Ed, Rondae and un-guaranteed contracts like Shabazz. Beyond that, we have future signings to plan, and that $14mil difference will contribute to treading the cap, or swimming in the repeater tax.

Also, think of him as a future possible trade chip. With 19/6/2/1/1 production on average %'s, making $35mil/yr versus $21mil/yr could define whether he's a positive or a negative asset. You're the FIRST person to point out a player's onerous salary, and now you don't care? Even if we don't WANT to trade him now, it would be foolish to paint ourselves in a corner where he's viewed as a toxic asset due to his salary.


i dont think he will ever be toxic. i think he is going to become a top 15 player in the very near future.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:13 pm
by Rockice_24
Prokorov wrote:
Rockice_24 wrote:Well between these two options give me #1 all day every day.

I still prefer to find a way to bring in Harris and Brogdon. Both great culture fits and both still in their prime with a young core to grow with. Obviously need to move Crabbe to find the space and also likely lose Harris in the process but at least you get an upgrade with Brogdon to fill in.

D-Lo/Din
Brogdon/#17
Levert/Musa
Harris/Kurucs
Allen/Davis

Love that team right there. Easy to root for, great spacing, and with the oldest players in the starting 5 being what 26-27 you have 5-7 year window to work with.


brogdon is a downgrade from harris.... a sizeable one. and i dont like him with dlo cause then you have 2 gaurds neither with much quickness. i love tobias.


Care to elaborate more as I know you have great insight into analytics on players.

My understanding was Brogdon was a high end wing defender which Harris is not so I saw a defensive upgrade. I also know Harris is an elite shooter but Brodgon was a 50/40/90 type player which while maybe not as great a shooter as Harris would be a minor downgrade in that department but slightly more well rounded offensively. I just don't see him as a major downgrade. Where do you see a major downgrade?

I love Tobias though and really want him bad.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:07 pm
by ecuhus1981
Prokorov wrote:i dont think he will ever be toxic. i think he is going to become a top 15 player in the very near future.

You're off your rocker. He's 26, never been to an ASG and just completed his 8th year in the league. He's barely a top-60 player, and this season has proven that if he doesn't have the exact conditions to bring the most out of his game (as he did in LAC), he's not even that.

Keep in mind, I've said numerous times that I like TObias' game in a vacuum. This offseason, I wouldn't touch him with a 10-foot pole. because too many teams are looking to throw obscene money at a guy who doesn't have star impact on a team, let alone superstar impact.

Now, if we're going hot takes like "Tobi is a top-15 player" just for shock and awe, I have one for you: I'd rather spend $33mil on the 3 role-players I listed in my OP than him. Lyles, Looney and Rozier would give us quality depth, and each would be valuable asset for future trades if we ever needed or wanted to move them. Tobi would be the new Wiggins. :onfire: :onfire: :onfire: :onfire: :onfire:

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 5:06 pm
by SpeedyG
You are both off your rockers. Harris isn't a top 15 player, despite how great a fit he will be for this team.

But at the same time, Looney/Lyles/Rozier?

None of those guys would have beaten out the guys in front of them from the 2018 Nets.

Sent from my SM-G925T using RealGM mobile app

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 7:11 pm
by Paradise
SpeedyG wrote:You are both off your rockers. Harris isn't a top 15 player, despite how great a fit he will be for this team.

But at the same time, Looney/Lyles/Rozier?

None of those guys would have beaten out the guys in front of them from the 2018 Nets.

Sent from my SM-G925T using RealGM mobile app

Yeah...I’m glad I’m in off-season mode right now. I think everyone is fatigued or something lol

Tobias has the same level of playoff experience now as D’Lo, Spencer and Jarrett Allen.

Rozier, Looney are playoff rotation players who could end up another piece for a contender or contract fodder in 2 years.

For a better example: Rozier doesn’t even put up Reggie Jackson stats.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 7:39 pm
by Hello Brooklyn
Lol at Harris being a top 15 player. Not even top 30.

He was completely average in the playoffs. Will never be an All Star. Maxing him is a terrible idea.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:43 am
by Rockice_24
Since both kyrie and harris both are in the 32 M range I'd like to bring both of them in and would move Din to do so.

Kyrie/Levert
D-Lo/Musa
Harris/#17
Harris/Kurucs
Allen/Davis

That would be sick if we can pull that off.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat Jun 8, 2019 3:58 am
by tmorgan
Random person interjecting:

Tobias Harris is a very good, versatile offensive player. Takes mismatches to the post, shoots over littles, dribble drives on bigs. A very nice player to have.

If you're paying him over 20 million a year, though, it's a mistake.

His defensive footspeed is a weak. His defense in general is weak. He's a good shooter, but not great, and the points he gives you are only slightly above average in terms of efficiency. While he's a great guy and fantastic in the community, he's not a verbal leader and doesn't add to a team's identity on the court.

He's a contender's third best player at best. He can't be hidden on defense, although the league's trending small has made him a better four. As a three, he's a turnstile.

He was a very nice player for a bunch of teams, but there's a reason he moves so much. He's not a foundational piece, he's some nice furniture. Don't pay your furniture 30 million a year.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat Jun 8, 2019 1:28 pm
by Prokorov
tmorgan wrote:Random person interjecting:

Tobias Harris is a very good, versatile offensive player. Takes mismatches to the post, shoots over littles, dribble drives on bigs. A very nice player to have.

If you're paying him over 20 million a year, though, it's a mistake.

His defensive footspeed is a weak. His defense in general is weak. He's a good shooter, but not great, and the points he gives you are only slightly above average in terms of efficiency. While he's a great guy and fantastic in the community, he's not a verbal leader and doesn't add to a team's identity on the court.

He's a contender's third best player at best. He can't be hidden on defense, although the league's trending small has made him a better four. As a three, he's a turnstile.

He was a very nice player for a bunch of teams, but there's a reason he moves so much. He's not a foundational piece, he's some nice furniture. Don't pay your furniture 30 million a year.


whether we pay him 20 or 30 is irrelevant.

we will be an over the cap team either way, and an under the tax team either way.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat Jun 8, 2019 4:09 pm
by DarkXaero
Prokorov wrote:
tmorgan wrote:Random person interjecting:

Tobias Harris is a very good, versatile offensive player. Takes mismatches to the post, shoots over littles, dribble drives on bigs. A very nice player to have.

If you're paying him over 20 million a year, though, it's a mistake.

His defensive footspeed is a weak. His defense in general is weak. He's a good shooter, but not great, and the points he gives you are only slightly above average in terms of efficiency. While he's a great guy and fantastic in the community, he's not a verbal leader and doesn't add to a team's identity on the court.

He's a contender's third best player at best. He can't be hidden on defense, although the league's trending small has made him a better four. As a three, he's a turnstile.

He was a very nice player for a bunch of teams, but there's a reason he moves so much. He's not a foundational piece, he's some nice furniture. Don't pay your furniture 30 million a year.


whether we pay him 20 or 30 is irrelevant.

we will be an over the cap team either way, and an under the tax team either way.
It's never irrelevant, even if you're over the cap. If you try to move him in the future for a better fit or assets, the contract he has absolutely matters.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sat Jun 8, 2019 11:30 pm
by Prokorov
DarkXaero wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
tmorgan wrote:Random person interjecting:

Tobias Harris is a very good, versatile offensive player. Takes mismatches to the post, shoots over littles, dribble drives on bigs. A very nice player to have.

If you're paying him over 20 million a year, though, it's a mistake.

His defensive footspeed is a weak. His defense in general is weak. He's a good shooter, but not great, and the points he gives you are only slightly above average in terms of efficiency. While he's a great guy and fantastic in the community, he's not a verbal leader and doesn't add to a team's identity on the court.

He's a contender's third best player at best. He can't be hidden on defense, although the league's trending small has made him a better four. As a three, he's a turnstile.

He was a very nice player for a bunch of teams, but there's a reason he moves so much. He's not a foundational piece, he's some nice furniture. Don't pay your furniture 30 million a year.


whether we pay him 20 or 30 is irrelevant.

we will be an over the cap team either way, and an under the tax team either way.
It's never irrelevant, even if you're over the cap. If you try to move him in the future for a better fit or assets, the contract he has absolutely matters.

it is irrelevant. having to "move him later" means he has been a monumental disaster and you have bigger issues like needing to find a new GM.

if he never improves despite being 26 or 27 it still a great value contract.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 7:43 am
by ecuhus1981
No one said we "have" to move him later, you want to leave your organization flexible to an unknowable future. Even IF he doesn't continue to regress as he has since leaving LAC, paying Harris more than his worth will hamper a team's ability to pay their other players down the line. The Nets overpaying for TH now could mean not being able to afford to match rich RFA offers for Caris and Taurean under the repeater tax next summer. That's needlessly short-sighted, as I've said before when you've trotted out this "reasoning".

The main reason you'd want to fire your GM in this scenario was for overpaying a role-player like Tobi. So, let's just remove the reason for firing the GM and not overpay Tobi in the first place, mkay?

Let Harris be the Sixers' problem, for the next 5 years and $160mil. Or anyone else. Sidestep Julius and both of the Nikola's also, thy're fine role-players like Tobi, but horrid value buys in this seller's market. Pair Kyrie with D'Angelo, and prepare to sell Spencer and Joe for capspace & future assets if Kevin commits. If not, just use the remaining $12mil of your capspace to either sign (Lyles + keep Ed Davis) or absorb (Ilyasova+future1st) the rest of your frontcourt.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 5:17 pm
by Prokorov
ecuhus1981 wrote:No one said we "have" to move him later, you want to leave your organization flexible to an unknowable future. Even IF he doesn't continue to regress as he has since leaving LAC, paying Harris more than his worth will hamper a team's ability to pay their other players down the line. The Nets overpaying for TH now could mean not being able to afford to match rich RFA offers for Caris and Taurean under the repeater tax next summer. That's needlessly short-sighted, as I've said before when you've trotted out this "reasoning".

The main reason you'd want to fire your GM in this scenario was for overpaying a role-player like Tobi. So, let's just remove the reason for firing the GM and not overpay Tobi in the first place, mkay?

Let Harris be the Sixers' problem, for the next 5 years and $160mil. Or anyone else. Sidestep Julius and both of the Nikola's also, thy're fine role-players like Tobi, but horrid value buys in this seller's market. Pair Kyrie with D'Angelo, and prepare to sell Spencer and Joe for capspace & future assets if Kevin commits. If not, just use the remaining $12mil of your capspace to either sign (Lyles + keep Ed Davis) or absorb (Ilyasova+future1st) the rest of your frontcourt.


his worth is the max

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 6:00 pm
by DarkXaero
Prokorov wrote:
DarkXaero wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
whether we pay him 20 or 30 is irrelevant.

we will be an over the cap team either way, and an under the tax team either way.
It's never irrelevant, even if you're over the cap. If you try to move him in the future for a better fit or assets, the contract he has absolutely matters.

it is irrelevant. having to "move him later" means he has been a monumental disaster and you have bigger issues like needing to find a new GM.

if he never improves despite being 26 or 27 it still a great value contract.
Again, you're not getting it. Tobias Harris is a known commodity in the league, we already know what we're getting with him if we sign him. You can always sign a player, and move him later for a better fit/assets if it makes sense. It doesn't mean that the player was a "monumental disaster" and that we "need to find a new GM", that's a really dumb way of looking at things. Clippers already did something like this.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 9:16 pm
by Prokorov
DarkXaero wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
DarkXaero wrote:It's never irrelevant, even if you're over the cap. If you try to move him in the future for a better fit or assets, the contract he has absolutely matters.

it is irrelevant. having to "move him later" means he has been a monumental disaster and you have bigger issues like needing to find a new GM.

if he never improves despite being 26 or 27 it still a great value contract.
Again, you're not getting it. Tobias Harris is a known commodity in the league, we already know what we're getting with him if we sign him. You can always sign a player, and move him later for a better fit/assets if it makes sense. It doesn't mean that the player was a "monumental disaster" and that we "need to find a new GM", that's a really dumb way of looking at things. Clippers already did something like this.


you dont sign a 27 year old to a 4-5 year mx deal to find a better fit later. if we trade him, its because of monumental disaster or catastrophic injury

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 9:44 pm
by ecuhus1981
Prokorov wrote:you dont sign a 27 year old to a 4-5 year mx deal to find a better fit later. if we trade him, its because of monumental disaster or catastrophic injury

And why are you blind to the fact that either a monumental disaster or a catastrophic injury could happen? In those cases, a good GM knows that a hobbled player or a poor team fit is easier to offload/stretch/buyout if they aren't also on a bloated contract. That's why a good GM efforts not to give out any bloated contracts, relative to that player's ability.

Keep the laissez faire hot takes to yourself, I have humored you long enough but they are nonsense.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 10:34 pm
by Prokorov
ecuhus1981 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:you dont sign a 27 year old to a 4-5 year mx deal to find a better fit later. if we trade him, its because of monumental disaster or catastrophic injury

And why are you blind to the fact that either a monumental disaster or a catastrophic injury could happen? In those cases, a good GM knows that a hobbled player or a poor team fit is easier to offload/stretch/buyout if they aren't also on a bloated contract. That's why a good GM efforts not to give out any bloated contracts, relative to that player's ability.

Keep the laissez faire hot takes to yourself, I have humored you long enough but they are nonsense.


you dont pass on a 27 year old borderline all-star in his prime who is a perfect fit for your team because he "may get injured"

thats dumb.

Re: Let's Make a Deal, 2019 Nets Offseason Edition

Posted: Sun Jun 9, 2019 11:12 pm
by Netaman
You also don't usually let a 23 year old all star and team leader walk for nothing. So the hyperbole can cut both ways as it relates to the Kyrie decision.

I have no issue signing Kyrie and trying to make it work next to DLo if he's the best option we can get here. It's much more uncertain as to whether or not he's going to be a better investment than DLo (at a cheaper price) over the next 4-5 years. The good news is the best guy to make that call is Marks so we just get to sit back and see what happens. Dumping DLo after successfully putting so much into his development seems like a short sighted risk imo despite Kyrie being the better player.