ImageImageImageImageImage

Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years)

Moderators: jerseyjac, Rich Rane, NyCeEvO

Shark
Analyst
Posts: 3,307
And1: 207
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#101 » by Shark » Sat Jul 6, 2019 6:07 pm

Prokorov wrote:
vincecarter4pres wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:I also think that Jordan probably starts. Allen has to get stronger and play tougher. It's no shame in it, he'll still play the same minutes anyway.

And that's the thing, it's not shameful or anything, he's just young and skinny and even though he might be a hair better than Jordan, he's not significantly so imo.


allen not starting would mean he had an enormous regression in the offseason, and injury, or major off-court issues.

He is a better player then jordan. people here need to realize that us getting beat by embiid is irrelevant right now heading into this season. people also need to realize we won 50% or more of the games an oppising big scored 20+ against us and 70% of the games they scored 30+

the nets dont care if post players go off, the view that as a win if teams are going to the post heavily because in the long run we will be more efficient even if they ahve a mismatch

but also, jordan while a great back up is a shell of what he was

It’s also not like DeAndre fared all that well against Embiid anyway. Sure he’s more A more physical defender than Allen at this point, but Embiid can just shoot from outside or take him off the dribble. It’s best to keep Allen as your starter a let him keep on figuring things out.
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#102 » by treiz » Mon Jul 8, 2019 10:19 am

Prokorov wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:I'm glad Allen wants to start. But he'll need to earn it. Jordan isn't going to come in here and go easy on him.


yes he will, because jordan isnt as good as allen.


Should it matter if Jordan starts or not? If Allen still gets his 30mpg and Jordan has 20mpg then isn't this the main thing? Worst case scenario, this will be like the times when KG started for us but only played like 15mpg.

If anything, let him and DeAndre battle it out for who 'starts' if it means that much to them, I mean there's nothing wrong with a bit of competition.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 32,822
And1: 10,116
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#103 » by Prokorov » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:06 pm

treiz wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:I'm glad Allen wants to start. But he'll need to earn it. Jordan isn't going to come in here and go easy on him.


yes he will, because jordan isnt as good as allen.


Should it matter if Jordan starts or not? If Allen still gets his 30mpg and Jordan has 20mpg then isn't this the main thing? Worst case scenario, this will be like the times when KG started for us but only played like 15mpg.

If anything, let him and DeAndre battle it out for who 'starts' if it means that much to them, I mean there's nothing wrong with a bit of competition.


yes, it matters. you want your best players playing with your best players. starting accomplishes that. I also think Allen may need a bigger split then 30 vs. 18.
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#104 » by treiz » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:27 pm

Prokorov wrote:yes, it matters. you want your best players playing with your best players. starting accomplishes that. I also think Allen may need a bigger split then 30 vs. 18.


No it doesn't, all it does is make sure the starting 5 play together for maybe 5-6 minutes max at the start and perhaps after half time, I mean this is the whole point of having a rotation and why depth matters, what should really matter more is if he's out there closing the game with our best players, he plays around 30mpg, and he's out there during the high critical moments of the any given game.

Levert, Harris have been some of our best players in the last 2 seasons and there were times when Atkinson would start Crabbe over them, and I'm sure we both agree that both are better than Crabbe. You could also argue Dinwiddie is the 2nd best guard in this team last season and here he is as a 6MOTY candidate.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 32,822
And1: 10,116
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#105 » by Prokorov » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:31 pm

treiz wrote:
Prokorov wrote:yes, it matters. you want your best players playing with your best players. starting accomplishes that. I also think Allen may need a bigger split then 30 vs. 18.


No it doesn't, all it does is make sure the starting 5 play together for maybe 5-6 minutes max at the start and perhaps after half time, I mean this is the whole point of having a rotation and why depth matters, what should really matter more is if he's out there closing the game with our best players, he plays around 30mpg, and he's out there during the high critical moments of the any given game.

Levert, Harris have been some of our best players in the last 2 seasons and there were times when Atkinson would start Crabbe over them, and I'm sure we both agree that both are better than Crabbe. You could also argue Dinwiddie is the 2nd best guard in this team last season and here he is as a 6MOTY candidate.


those 5-6 minutes in each half = 12 minutes with our other starters. which is juge thats like 40% of his total minutes. you need him on the floor with Kyrie as much as possible.

i dont recall crabbe starting over harris last year. levert works well as a bench player sometimes since we had a better ball handler (Dlo) at the time. so staggering him is a bit easier. with Allen, you want him with our best shooters and ball handlers since he makes them all better and benefits from their ball penetration
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#106 » by treiz » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:44 pm

Prokorov wrote:
those 5-6 minutes in each half = 12 minutes with our other starters. which is juge thats like 40% of his total minutes. you need him on the floor with Kyrie as much as possible.

i dont recall crabbe starting over harris last year. levert works well as a bench player sometimes since we had a better ball handler (Dlo) at the time. so staggering him is a bit easier. with Allen, you want him with our best shooters and ball handlers since he makes them all better and benefits from their ball penetration


I don't disagree with having him on the floor with Kyrie as much as possible, you can also take out DeAndre for example after the first 5 minutes of game/half and bring in Allen to play another 5 minutes with Kyrie before you give him a breather. It's not impossible to find minutes for Allen to optimally play 70%-80% of his minutes with Kyrie even though he starts on the bench, I mean that's what a rotation is for, we have plenty of shooters in the team who can play multiple positions and give him the space he requires to perform. It won't be too difficult for Kenny to solve giving him his minutes whether he starts or not.

But then that's the point, starting on the bench is not the end all be all of any given game. Like you said Levert does work better as a bench player, a similar thing could be said of Dinwiddie. But the important thing is in most cases, when the situation calls for it, they were there for the high leverage moments of the game as well as there to close out games.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 32,822
And1: 10,116
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#107 » by Prokorov » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:45 pm

treiz wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
those 5-6 minutes in each half = 12 minutes with our other starters. which is juge thats like 40% of his total minutes. you need him on the floor with Kyrie as much as possible.

i dont recall crabbe starting over harris last year. levert works well as a bench player sometimes since we had a better ball handler (Dlo) at the time. so staggering him is a bit easier. with Allen, you want him with our best shooters and ball handlers since he makes them all better and benefits from their ball penetration


I don't disagree with having him on the floor with Kyrie as much as possible, you can also take out DeAndre for example after the first 5 minutes of game/half and bring in Allen to play another 5 minutes with Kyrie before you give him a breather. It's not impossible to find minutes for Allen to optimally play 70%-80% of his minutes with Kyrie even though he starts on the bench, I mean that's what a rotation is for, we have plenty of shooters in the team who can play multiple positions and give him the space he requires to perform. It won't be too difficult for Kenny to solve giving him his minutes whether he starts or not.

But then that's the point, starting on the bench is not the end all be all of any given game. Like you said Levert does work better as a bench player, a similar thing could be said of Dinwiddie. But the important thing is in most cases, when the situation calls for it, they were there for the high leverage moments of the game as well as there to close out games.


closing out games i think you go with hot hand/matchup. im fine with allen sitting sometimes in those situations. i cant see any justification for him not starting both halfs. it minimizes all of our best players
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
User avatar
NyCeEvO
Forum Mod - Nets
Forum Mod - Nets
Posts: 20,168
And1: 4,795
Joined: Jul 14, 2010

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#108 » by NyCeEvO » Tue Jul 9, 2019 5:47 am

I still don’t see any point in arguing over starting lineups when Kenny will/should know on a first hand basis what lineup is best for the team and who needs to play when. The coaching staff has the power to start or bench players, not us. The most perfectly crafted and well thought out argument of who should start and how much they should play means nothing, since we have absolutely no impact on those decisions.
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#109 » by treiz » Tue Jul 9, 2019 9:20 am

Prokorov wrote:
closing out games i think you go with hot hand/matchup. im fine with allen sitting sometimes in those situations. i cant see any justification for him not starting both halfs. it minimizes all of our best players


Of course, I think we all know Kenny prefers to play the hot hand on any given game anyway and he's shown that consistently during his time here. I just don't see the issue of him not starting or not, as long as Allen gets his 30mpg and plays (more often than not) in key situations it should be fine. Kenny will figure out his best lineups and rotation, although Jordan might not be the player he once was based on last year, this team is infinitely better than the Knicks/Mavs team he played with and hopefully that could boost his game a bit.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 32,822
And1: 10,116
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#110 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 10:02 am

treiz wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
closing out games i think you go with hot hand/matchup. im fine with allen sitting sometimes in those situations. i cant see any justification for him not starting both halfs. it minimizes all of our best players


Of course, I think we all know Kenny prefers to play the hot hand on any given game anyway and he's shown that consistently during his time here. I just don't see the issue of him not starting or not, as long as Allen gets his 30mpg and plays (more often than not) in key situations it should be fine. Kenny will figure out his best lineups and rotation, although Jordan might not be the player he once was based on last year, this team is infinitely better than the Knicks/Mavs team he played with and hopefully that could boost his game a bit.


the issue is that allen is signifcantly better. why would you play a worse player with your best players? that would be like starting dinwiddie over kyrie
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#111 » by treiz » Tue Jul 9, 2019 10:16 am

Prokorov wrote:
the issue is that allen is signifcantly better. why would you play a worse player with your best players? that would be like starting dinwiddie over kyrie


I don't doubt that Allen is better, and I've clearly stated that Allen should get around 30mpg and Jordan about 18mpg. So in this case, Jordan would only play to spell Allen here and there when a) he's tired or b) he's struggling or c) if DeAndre has the hot hand.

Let's chill a bit with the hyperbole, it's nowhere near similar to starting Dinwiddie over Kyrie. All I'm talking about here is Jordan starting for the first 5 minutes of game, and spelling Allen for 3-5 minutes here and there depending on the situation. If you really want to, Allen can also start the first 8 minutes of the second half. There's ways around this to get your best players playing together without necessarily starting them, and Kenny will figure out his best lineups and rotation.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 32,822
And1: 10,116
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#112 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 10:17 am

treiz wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
the issue is that allen is signifcantly better. why would you play a worse player with your best players? that would be like starting dinwiddie over kyrie


I don't doubt that Allen is better, and I've clearly stated that Allen should get around 30mpg and Jordan about 18mpg. So in this case, Jordan would only play to spell Allen here and there when a) he's tired or b) he's struggling or c) if DeAndre has the hot hand.

Let's chill a bit with the hyperbole, it's nowhere near similar to starting Dinwiddie over Kyrie. All I'm talking about here is Jordan starting for the first 5 minutes of game, and spelling Allen for 3-5 minutes here and there depending on the situation. If you really want to, Allen can also start the first 8 minutes of the second half. There's ways around this to get your best players playing together without necessarily starting them, and Kenny will figure out his best lineups and rotation.


it isnt hyperbole, allen is the superior player. starting jordan makes no sense. why would you start him? so your team can be worst to start games?
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#113 » by treiz » Tue Jul 9, 2019 10:31 am

Prokorov wrote:
it isnt hyperbole, allen is the superior player. starting jordan makes no sense. why would you start him? so your team can be worst to start games?


So the difference between Kyrie and Dinwiddie is similar to the difference between Jordan and Allen? Come on man.

We're talking about giving him 5 minutes to start a game, the space will still be there from Prince/Harris/Kyrie, and it's not like DeAndre can't set screens, dunk, rebound for 5 minutes. He would be spelling Allen for 3-5 minutes for the scenarios I mentioned in my previous post. Are we seriously making a big deal out of that?

Bare in mind, I'm not an advocate for one way or the other, I just don't think it matters as much as Allen playing 30mpg and being there for the critical moments of the game.
User avatar
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 32,822
And1: 10,116
Joined: Dec 06, 2013
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#114 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 10:44 am

treiz wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
it isnt hyperbole, allen is the superior player. starting jordan makes no sense. why would you start him? so your team can be worst to start games?


So the difference between Kyrie and Dinwiddie is similar to the difference between Jordan and Allen? Come on man.

We're talking about giving him 5 minutes to start a game, the space will still be there from Prince/Harris/Kyrie, and it's not like DeAndre can't set screens, dunk, rebound for 5 minutes. He would be spelling Allen for 3-5 minutes for the scenarios I mentioned in my previous post. Are we seriously making a big deal out of that?

Bare in mind, I'm not an advocate for one way or the other, I just don't think it matters as much as Allen playing 30mpg and being there for the critical moments of the game.


yes, the gap between the 2 players is really big. and again, why would you intentionally start a worse player?

it just boggles my mind this would be a thing? reminds of when we brough in crabbe and everyone overrated him day 1. Jordon should be a great backup, but he is a backup
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#115 » by treiz » Tue Jul 9, 2019 4:49 pm

Prokorov wrote:
yes, the gap between the 2 players is really big. and again, why would you intentionally start a worse player?

it just boggles my mind this would be a thing? reminds of when we brough in crabbe and everyone overrated him day 1. Jordon should be a great backup, but he is a backup


Because starting for 5 minutes, and only playing an additional 13 minutes after that (in 3-5 minutes of spell of Allen, depending on the situation) is not the end all be all of any given game. There are plenty more times in a game where Allen can contribute in key moments where Kenny can play the best team for 30-35 minutes.

This isn't like hockey or NFL where there's a predetermined 1st unit, 2nd unit and 3rd unit. Lineups and rotations are fluid, and just because Jordan would start doesn't mean that he'll finish the game with them, let alone play another minute with the exact other 4 players he started with. If that was the case then I'll be on your side.

I'm not here to advocate Jordan, and this is in no way near similar to that Crabbe debacle a few years ago, since I'm not here debating whether Jordan is better than Allen or trying to come up with ways to justify that trade. My case is AND has always been, if Allen plays for 30mpg and plays in critical moments, that should be the main talking point here. Not whether Jordan starts for 5 minutes or not.
User avatar
MrDollarBills
RealGM
Posts: 29,460
And1: 10,612
Joined: Feb 15, 2008
     

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#116 » by MrDollarBills » Tue Jul 9, 2019 7:05 pm

NyCeEvO wrote:I still don’t see any point in arguing over starting lineups when Kenny will/should know on a first hand basis what lineup is best for the team and who needs to play when. The coaching staff has the power to start or bench players, not us. The most perfectly crafted and well thought out argument of who should start and how much they should play means nothing, since we have absolutely no impact on those decisions.


This. I don't care who starts. All I know is that Kyrie is the starting PG. That's all I need to know.
Wear your insides...on the outside,
Show your enemy...what you look like
MGrand15
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,941
And1: 1,188
Joined: Nov 17, 2009

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#117 » by MGrand15 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 8:45 pm

The only justification for starting Jordan is that he's a vet and may be less willing to come off the bench than the young Jarrett Allen. I could see that happening. I would imagine that a bench role was part of the discussion when he signed though.

I'm pretty sure our team is above promising guys starting spots but we'll see. JA is definitely better but we're really talking about a 6-8 minute difference. DeAndre will still play a bunch like Ed Davis did.
User avatar
treiz
RealGM
Posts: 11,984
And1: 564
Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Location: London, England
       

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#118 » by treiz » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:11 am

MrDollarBills wrote:
NyCeEvO wrote:I still don’t see any point in arguing over starting lineups when Kenny will/should know on a first hand basis what lineup is best for the team and who needs to play when. The coaching staff has the power to start or bench players, not us. The most perfectly crafted and well thought out argument of who should start and how much they should play means nothing, since we have absolutely no impact on those decisions.


This. I don't care who starts. All I know is that Kyrie is the starting PG. That's all I need to know.


This is exactly what I'm saying though, in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter who starts. As long as Allen get his minutes, that's what matters A LOT more.
User avatar
MrDollarBills
RealGM
Posts: 29,460
And1: 10,612
Joined: Feb 15, 2008
     

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#119 » by MrDollarBills » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:36 am

I don't care who starts. Look at both JA and DJ's numbers. This is a LUXURY situation.
Wear your insides...on the outside,
Show your enemy...what you look like
User avatar
Kate Winslow
Head Coach
Posts: 6,421
And1: 2,270
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
 

Re: Nets Sign DeAndre Jordan ($40 million/4 years) 

Post#120 » by Kate Winslow » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:17 pm

Allen will be fine, he's actually further ahead than a lot of current starting C's were after 2 seasons at age 20/21 (for example Steven Adams).
"Shoutout to everyone doubting me" - Anthony Bennett July 12, 2019

Return to Brooklyn Nets