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LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never?

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What Should Marks Do?

EXTEND CARIS NOW (5yrs, $120mil)
15
33%
EXTEND CARIS LATER (5yrs, $90-180mil)
8
17%
TRADE / QO / S&T CARIS
5
11%
EXTEND TAUREAN NOW (5yrs, $80mil)
3
7%
EXTEND TAUREAN LATER (5yrs, $60-120mil)
7
15%
TRADE / QO / S&T TAUREAN
8
17%
 
Total votes: 46

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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#41 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 12:46 pm

SpeedyG wrote:]So you love him but:

Don't think he's a good defender (I think I've seen you call him the worst defender of our trio last season)


He is not a good defender. there are arguments to be made he is average or better. defense is harder to quantify and more subjective.

Don't think he's an All star caliber player


He isnt. this is just a flat out fact. his numbers are no where close to all-star calibur either in volume or efficiency.

Don't think he was our best player in the playoffs


He probably was... i just dont think a 5 game sample in a series we lost holds more weight then 3 years of regular season games

Think he's overrated.
[/qupte]

that is undeniable. people are talking about him being an all-star and max player. 14 points on 50 TS%?

And is a worse player than Knox.


Levert is better now, knox i believe has the higher ceiling

You need to evaluate your definition of loving a player


actually... i think you do. loving someone/something is about loving them undoncitionally... about accepting their flaws and sitll embracing them. i dont need my daughter to be the smarters, most beautiful, most talented person in the world to lover her. i dont need levert to be an allstar to love him

RHJ had his flaws, he wasnt an all-star, i loved him. arman gilliam, chris morris... loved them. not all-stars, not max guys..

i want someone to make a legit argument that caris is an all-star level player or max guy before telling me im not allowed to like a player while saying they arent those things above.

what player who has done what caris has at his age with his injury history has ever come even close to a max deal?

what player with Caris numbers has ever made an all-star team?

what player of caris age with his numbers and injury history has ever made the jump to a 20/5/4 type player the next year?

the notion he is a max player or that its a risk he may be at years end is absurd. this is no different then all the crabbe hate i got for daring to c all him a role player and that harris is the same calibur guy. everyone called me a hater... i never hated crabbe, i thought he was a great fit just overpaid and overrated by our board. by last year most here hated him and wanted him gone while i was defending him because it went overboard

being a fan doesnt mean you have to be a homer
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#42 » by ecuhus1981 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 5:33 pm

I've already told you, Prok. JIMMY BUTLER is the comp most similar to Caris. 6'7, long arms, great playmaking ability for a wing, 13/4/4 in his 3rd year (age 23) in the league. He turned down 5 years, $70mil, and turned in a 20/5/4 campaign to force CHI's hand at giving him a max contract.

You can poo-poo LeVert's defense all you want, Kenny and Sean believe in him. Going into the season, they said multiple times that he and Rondae were the two best defenders on the team. Deep stats show he's above average, not lock-down but a good defender.

Whether you like it or not, non-All-Stars will get the max or near-max every year. Tobias Harris shaved a couple mil off of the max; it's not a good contract, but it's what the market will bear. Caris will be the same way next summer, unless we can agree to an extension now. We need to pay him for what we *think* he can become, and guys who drop 13/4/4 in their 3rd year typically vault to secondary star status in their 4th. By the time he shows you over the course of a season that he has done it, it's already too late to lock him in at a bargain. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If he never improves, a 26yo making $25mil for 13/4/4 is going to be a very movable contract in 2021. He will improve, and our temerity to lock him up early will be rewarded with production far exceeding his contract.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#43 » by ecuhus1981 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 5:44 pm

One more thing: $24mil is barely 70% of the max next season. A 5-year max contract will be something like $170mil, for an average of $34mil. It's funny money, so don't get hung up on antiquated concepts of what a "20-million-dollar player" is. Making $24mil is not All-Star caliber compensation in 2020. That's more like $35-40mil.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#44 » by Paradise » Tue Jul 9, 2019 5:57 pm

I’m pretty confident he will command something close to $90m-$100m on the open market but we could potentially re-sign him for a number closer to Gary Harris and Miles Turner which I believe was closer to a 4 Year $80M deal.

I mean I don’t understand the idea it would be crazy to pay him as a max player when he’s literally primed for an all-star breakout regular season once again after proving himself in the playoffs.

Playoff Caris is worth $90-$100m. Certainly more valuable than an overpaid Zach Lavine and Aaron Gordon in a seven game series.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#45 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 6:27 pm

ecuhus1981 wrote:I've already told you, Prok. JIMMY BUTLER is the comp most similar to Caris. 6'7, long arms, great playmaking ability for a wing, 13/4/4 in his 3rd year (age 23) in the league. He turned down 5 years, $70mil, and turned in a 20/5/4 campaign to force CHI's hand at giving him a max contract.


Butler didnt have the injury history levert does. He was also an elite defemder. he made a huge jump. the Bulls were smart to take that gamble... since butler is like the only example of that happening.
Whether you like it or not, non-All-Stars will get the max or near-max every year. Tobias Harris shaved a couple mil off of the max; it's not a good contract, but it's what the market will bear. Caris will be the same way next summer, unless we can agree to an extension now. We need to pay him for what we *think* he can become, and guys who drop 13/4/4 in their 3rd year typically vault to secondary star status in their 4th. By the time he shows you over the course of a season that he has done it, it's already too late to lock him in at a bargain. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If he never improves, a 26yo making $25mil for 13/4/4 is going to be a very movable contract in 2021. He will improve, and our temerity to lock him up early will be rewarded with production far exceeding his contract.


Levert is nowhere near the player tobias has proven to be. Harris was a near 50/40/90 player. you also have to factor in his injuries and also not just go by raw numbers. he is coming off a season of awful shooting/terrible efficiency.

maybe he can make a butler-esque leap. but that odds are very unlikely. we are smarter to gamble on it.

worst case if we extend him: he continues to be a low efficiency 3rd/4th option type who struggles to stay on the floor

worst case if we wait: we pay an all-star his deserved max money

paying him anything more then 15-17 million now would be the worst move marks has ever made.
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#46 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 6:28 pm

ecuhus1981 wrote:One more thing: $24mil is barely 70% of the max next season. A 5-year max contract will be something like $170mil, for an average of $34mil. It's funny money, so don't get hung up on antiquated concepts of what a "20-million-dollar player" is. Making $24mil is not All-Star caliber compensation in 2020. That's more like $35-40mil.


it is still 20% of the cap and moves us closer to the tax.
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#47 » by Prokorov » Tue Jul 9, 2019 6:29 pm

Paradise wrote:I’m pretty confident he will command something close to $90m-$100m on the open market but we could potentially re-sign him for a number closer to Gary Harris and Miles Turner which I believe was closer to a 4 Year $80M deal.

I mean I don’t understand the idea it would be crazy to pay him as a max player when he’s literally primed for an all-star breakout regular season once again after proving himself in the playoffs.

Playoff Caris is worth $90-$100m. Certainly more valuable than an overpaid Zach Lavine and Aaron Gordon in a seven game series.


you cant prove anything in 5 games.

he is coming off a pretty pedestrian season. 50 TS% is about as bad as it gets for a rotation player. and guys who dont shoot well from three typically dont get big money with some exceptions (studs like simmons)
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#48 » by Papi_swav » Tue Jul 9, 2019 6:59 pm

I'll try to sign him for 5/80 or 4/65 right now. I think he makes the jump and becomes a candidate for most improved player of the year assuming a healthy year. If we end up top 3 in standings he might be able to be an all star like Russell did last year. Kemba, Kyrie, Beal are almost locks at guards and we don't know when Oladipo is back. Lowry is getting old and Raps might suck so that will hurt his chances. Trae Young and Lavine has a chance depending on their stats and teams standings. The good thing about Levert is he can also come in at forward where the East lost Kawhi. Not saying it's a lock but he has a good chance depending on health, stats and teams standings at the break. I expect a 18/4/4 season from him and I hope he mesh well with kyrie. He might be our X factor for our team this year.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#49 » by ecuhus1981 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 9:36 pm

Yes, Jimmy was a superior defender at Caris' age; Caris is the better passer and shooter. Jimmy's shooting was horrible, but many scouts felt he would improve, and he did. Chicago knew they were low-balling an extension, hoping they could lock him up well below his future earning potential. Jimmy hadn't put it all together, but an offer that low gave him no choice but to bet on himself, and he won. Now I will clarify, I thought that he turned down 5 years, $70 for some reason. Looking back at news articles, it seems their final offer was 4 years, $44mi, $11mil per year. Even for a 2015 cap of $70mil, that's pathetic for a young, promising starter.

In 2020, with a cap of $117mil, that would be $18mil per season, or a 5-year deal at $90mil. LeVert would be just as foolish to sign that now as Jimmy would have been to sign the Bulls' offer. Don'tget me wrong, I'd jump for joy IF would could ink him for that; I just don't see LeVert's camp (ROCNation, remember!) leaving that much money on the table.

All I can say is, we will know alot about Caris' market value by the extension negotiations for Kelly Oubre and Jaylen Brown.

Oubre just finished his 4th year, and rumor was that some team was going to tender a 4-year, $80mil offer sheet. Kelly is a Jayhawk and I love him, but he's not as good as LeVert. Now, PHX looks smart by waiting for RFA offers to come for him; every team that had significant capspace has used theirs already this summer. My guess is that he'll play out the QO, but if he succumbs to the pressure and signs a 5-year, $60mil deal, good for PHX for sticking to their guns. If I know that franchise, though, they'll find some way to shoot themselves in the foot, and extend him for 4 years, $100mil or something.

Meanwhile, Jaylen is on the same track as CLV. My bet is that BOS ponies up an offer like the one I suggested for Caris, 5 years, $120mil. As few genuine stars as there will be available in 2020, and as much as they have toyed with Brown's role and PT, I'd roll the dice on RFA if I were him. But that's at least a fair offer, while retaining some value for BOS to take the risk on locking him up early.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#50 » by MGrand15 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:06 am

I don't see the point of extending restricted FAs early. Let them earn their contracts. We're capped out anyway.

Also y'all are arguing with someone who was trash talking LeVert the minute he got injured with what we thought was a career altering leg injury. Literally in the game thread. The same guy who wanted to 'sell high' on LeVert when he was playing like a near all star for a mid-first round pick.

50% TS is exactly what Russell did last year. And he didn't go off in the playoffs against a defense that destroys guards like LeVert did. Maybe he never makes the leap but no one in the organization is gonna be surprised if he does.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#51 » by NyCeEvO » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:26 am

Prokorov wrote:
NyCeEvO wrote:Has there ever been a non-minimum/exception contract that Marks hasn’t overpaid for?


Harris and Dinwiddie both were paid solid value.

The overall point is that Marks almost always gives the player more freedom/more money than what is expected.

You are correct about Harris though.

Dinwiddie was given the max of what the Nets were allowed to pay him annually. Contrary to the general philosophy and desires of an agent, Dinwiddie openly stated that he was willing to take the full 3 year/$34mil extension. The pro-player element to the deal was that they agreed to a 2yr extension with a PO for the final year rather than a full 3 year deal. It gave Dinwiddie both life changing, generational money and ability to take care of his parents (as he stated on a podcast with Woj IIRC) but also have the ability to get a higher salary sooner, if he opts out.

Any big money player gets AT LEAST the upper bracket of what we all expect and usually goes above it. Based on his own history, it’s obvious to me that Marks will (over)pay Caris.


Caris is not a big money player. "what we all expect of him".... if that means what the nets board expects its unrealsitic and not in line with anything he has actually every produced. people talk of him like a star despite pretty average numbers for the volume pre-injury and really poor numbers post injury.

unless you want to pay him based on a 5-game sample in a series we lost 4-1 then he should be nowhere close to 20 million. no one in league history, who posted what levert did, even pre-injury has gotten near max money

And if he’s actually healthy and does what expected of him, some team will max him. Next year’s group of free agents(outside of AD) is nowhere near as good as this year’s.


if he plays like he did last year he will 10000000000% not get anything close to the max from anyone. teams arent paying the max for an ineffient volume scorer who doesnt shoot threes well.

You split the latter point of my statement into two sections even though my statement was entirely predicated on the presumption Caris is healthy for the entire upcoming season and not based on this past regular season. Your comments don't address the angle that I'm talking about.

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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#52 » by Lamak » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:32 am

i didnt realize levert's extension value was so high but i want him extended
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#53 » by NyCeEvO » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:34 am

Prokorov wrote:
NyCeEvO wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
yes, i just dont drastically over rate him. its funny because 2 years ago some people wanted him traded/benched because he had an awful 2 month stretch shooting to start the year and me and MDB where the only ones to really defend him.

Please link the threads where this happened. At best, this seems hyperbolic. The idea that you and MDB were the only two who were defending Caris (who if anything has been referred to as the board’s golden boy) over and against the rest of the board is highly dubious.

I’ve never wanted him traded.

When he was first drafted, I and a few others were throwing around the name Penny Hardaway’s name based on his slender frame and point forward abilities displayed in college. Others posters (correctly) checked us and reminded us of how good Penny was and that Caris shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same sentence, even if we’re just referring to body type and similar on-court positions/roles.


check 2018 game threads 1 through 30.
This is a cop out.

In debates/arguments, the burden of providing proof always falls upon the person making a claim, not upon the audience.

If you have a contested hypothesis/claim, you need to provide evidence, not us. You are the one proposing an idea that's contrary to the general opinion.

Why should we have to do the legwork of verifying a belief that few/none of us support, while you get to freely make an unsubstantiated claim without doing the work of proving that your memory of what took place is true?



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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#54 » by SpeedyG » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:36 am

Prokorov wrote:
SpeedyG wrote:]So you love him but:

Don't think he's a good defender (I think I've seen you call him the worst defender of our trio last season)


He is not a good defender. there are arguments to be made he is average or better. defense is harder to quantify and more subjective.

Don't think he's an All star caliber player


He isnt. this is just a flat out fact. his numbers are no where close to all-star calibur either in volume or efficiency.

Don't think he was our best player in the playoffs


He probably was... i just dont think a 5 game sample in a series we lost holds more weight then 3 years of regular season games

Think he's overrated.
[/qupte]

that is undeniable. people are talking about him being an all-star and max player. 14 points on 50 TS%?

And is a worse player than Knox.


Levert is better now, knox i believe has the higher ceiling

You need to evaluate your definition of loving a player


actually... i think you do. loving someone/something is about loving them undoncitionally... about accepting their flaws and sitll embracing them. i dont need my daughter to be the smarters, most beautiful, most talented person in the world to lover her. i dont need levert to be an allstar to love him

RHJ had his flaws, he wasnt an all-star, i loved him. arman gilliam, chris morris... loved them. not all-stars, not max guys..

i want someone to make a legit argument that caris is an all-star level player or max guy before telling me im not allowed to like a player while saying they arent those things above.

what player who has done what caris has at his age with his injury history has ever come even close to a max deal?

what player with Caris numbers has ever made an all-star team?

what player of caris age with his numbers and injury history has ever made the jump to a 20/5/4 type player the next year?

the notion he is a max player or that its a risk he may be at years end is absurd. this is no different then all the crabbe hate i got for daring to c all him a role player and that harris is the same calibur guy. everyone called me a hater... i never hated crabbe, i thought he was a great fit just overpaid and overrated by our board. by last year most here hated him and wanted him gone while i was defending him because it went overboard

being a fan doesnt mean you have to be a homer


Levert isn't a bad defender though. This is why I don't think you really like him based on stuff like this.

He harasses the best perimeter offensive player on the ball, chases him around screens for about 10 seconds disrupting their offense, and eventually the guy gets free and hits a tough shot.

That's not bad defense.

He can get to almost any spot he wants on the court. Last season he got stronger and finished through contact. He defends the best perimeter player. He can also creare for others. Caris is a consistent jump shot away from all star level.

You talk about what player has done this?

What ball dominant player shot as little FT as Russell did? Yet you accept him as an outlier. Player development isn't a straight line, not for any player.

You look for traits, not whether X player has done something, because not every players circumstance is ever the same.

Caris has all the traits of an all star caliber player.

You boast about your Crabbe evaluation, but here's the thing.

Both came in at the same levels, each being better at one thing over the other.

The difference is that one guy improved by leaps and bounds. So you see, you weren't right about Crabbe.

You were wrong about Joe. All of us were. None of us saw the leap that Joe would make.

That's the difference between those two.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#55 » by Prokorov » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:22 pm

MGrand15 wrote:I don't see the point of extending restricted FAs early. Let them earn their contracts. We're capped out anyway.

Also y'all are arguing with someone who was trash talking LeVert the minute he got injured with what we thought was a career altering leg injury. Literally in the game thread. The same guy who wanted to 'sell high' on LeVert when he was playing like a near all star for a mid-first round pick.


Lol at "trashing levert" I was merely the voice of reason. people saying "our season is over" or "we need to tank now" or "we need to trade for carmello instantly"

what did i say?

"we should be ok, levert has been great but we can replace his production with dinwiddie/Russell". the idea that 18 ppg was impossible to replace was just an emotional knee jerk that fed into the overreaction that levert had already become some superstar.

also. i was right. imagine that, we somehow were able to piece together the 18 ppg and not have to succumb to tanking or signing chuck-melo.
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#56 » by Prokorov » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:24 pm

NyCeEvO wrote:You split the latter point of my statement into two sections even though my statement was entirely predicated on the presumption Caris is healthy for the entire upcoming season and not based on this past regular season. Your comments don't address the angle that I'm talking about.

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its one or the other though... you extend him hoping he stays healthy/takes another step/improves shooting or you wait for him to prove it then pay him (more)

if there is a scenario where we wait for him to prove it and extend him for less that would be ideal but i don tthink it works that way
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#57 » by Prokorov » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:25 pm

NyCeEvO wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
NyCeEvO wrote:Please link the threads where this happened. At best, this seems hyperbolic. The idea that you and MDB were the only two who were defending Caris (who if anything has been referred to as the board’s golden boy) over and against the rest of the board is highly dubious.

I’ve never wanted him traded.

When he was first drafted, I and a few others were throwing around the name Penny Hardaway’s name based on his slender frame and point forward abilities displayed in college. Others posters (correctly) checked us and reminded us of how good Penny was and that Caris shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same sentence, even if we’re just referring to body type and similar on-court positions/roles.


check 2018 game threads 1 through 30.
This is a cop out.

In debates/arguments, the burden of providing proof always falls upon the person making a claim, not upon the audience.

If you have a contested hypothesis/claim, you need to provide evidence, not us. You are the one proposing an idea that's contrary to the general opinion.

Why should we have to do the legwork of verifying a belief that few/none of us support, while you get to freely make an unsubstantiated claim without doing the work of proving that your memory of what took place is true?

you can choose to believe it or not. digging through old game thread to find the correct one isnt something i have the time or inclination to do now that i have a newborn... as stubborn as i may be :D


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Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#58 » by Prokorov » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:28 pm

SpeedyG wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
SpeedyG wrote:]So you love him but:

Don't think he's a good defender (I think I've seen you call him the worst defender of our trio last season)


He is not a good defender. there are arguments to be made he is average or better. defense is harder to quantify and more subjective.

Don't think he's an All star caliber player


He isnt. this is just a flat out fact. his numbers are no where close to all-star calibur either in volume or efficiency.

Don't think he was our best player in the playoffs


He probably was... i just dont think a 5 game sample in a series we lost holds more weight then 3 years of regular season games

Think he's overrated.
[/qupte]

that is undeniable. people are talking about him being an all-star and max player. 14 points on 50 TS%?



Levert is better now, knox i believe has the higher ceiling



actually... i think you do. loving someone/something is about loving them undoncitionally... about accepting their flaws and sitll embracing them. i dont need my daughter to be the smarters, most beautiful, most talented person in the world to lover her. i dont need levert to be an allstar to love him

RHJ had his flaws, he wasnt an all-star, i loved him. arman gilliam, chris morris... loved them. not all-stars, not max guys..

i want someone to make a legit argument that caris is an all-star level player or max guy before telling me im not allowed to like a player while saying they arent those things above.

what player who has done what caris has at his age with his injury history has ever come even close to a max deal?

what player with Caris numbers has ever made an all-star team?

what player of caris age with his numbers and injury history has ever made the jump to a 20/5/4 type player the next year?

the notion he is a max player or that its a risk he may be at years end is absurd. this is no different then all the crabbe hate i got for daring to c all him a role player and that harris is the same calibur guy. everyone called me a hater... i never hated crabbe, i thought he was a great fit just overpaid and overrated by our board. by last year most here hated him and wanted him gone while i was defending him because it went overboard

being a fan doesnt mean you have to be a homer


Levert isn't a bad defender though. This is why I don't think you really like him based on stuff like this.

He harasses the best perimeter offensive player on the ball, chases him around screens for about 10 seconds disrupting their offense, and eventually the guy gets free and hits a tough shot.

That's not bad defense.

He can get to almost any spot he wants on the court. Last season he got stronger and finished through contact. He defends the best perimeter player. He can also creare for others. Caris is a consistent jump shot away from all star level.

You talk about what player has done this?

What ball dominant player shot as little FT as Russell did? Yet you accept him as an outlier. Player development isn't a straight line, not for any player.

You look for traits, not whether X player has done something, because not every players circumstance is ever the same.

Caris has all the traits of an all star caliber player.

You boast about your Crabbe evaluation, but here's the thing.

Both came in at the same levels, each being better at one thing over the other.

The difference is that one guy improved by leaps and bounds. So you see, you weren't right about Crabbe.

You were wrong about Joe. All of us were. None of us saw the leap that Joe would make.

That's the difference between those two.


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Caris has the tools to be an all-star. im not paying him until he proves it, since its still a big risk he doesnt and we would massively overpay him. id rather give the max to a guy who proves it then give 70-80% of the max to a guy and then he falls short or hits an injury again

Russell for sure proved us wrong. i would have traded russell for a pick in the teens before last year and said as much and wouldnt have given him more then 15-20M a year. i said i didnt want to be in a situation with russell orlando was with gordon.

then russell proved he was an allstar and i was fine giving him the max (if we hadnt gotten KD)

the risk of extending before the guy proves it is worse then waiting and paying him.
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#59 » by ecuhus1981 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:58 pm

Take it easy on the ol' strawman, Prok. You've been merciless to him lately.

Just so we're all working on the same sheet of music, would you agree that max money is due a 4th-year veteran All-Star, and that 4th-year All-Stars are worth max money?

Do you acknowledge that, with a 2020 cap of $117mil (or greater, as some estimate), the max salaries for players with less than 7 years of NBA experience will start @ $29mil?

Do you acknowledge that, with the standard maximum annual 8% raises on a maximum contract, the total $170mil comes to an average of $34mil over 5 years?



The contract I'm proposing for Caris is way under a max, it's not even close. You keep talking max salary whenever we discuss 5 years, $120mil, but they aren't in the same ballpark. The 5-year deal I suggested would start at $20mil. If we wait until he turns in an All-Star campaign this season, we will have cost ourselves $50mil over the course of his next contract. That's cost-prohibitive hesitation.

Now I'll set you to task: name a 24yo wing who averaged 13/4/4 with good defense in their 3rd year, never improved beyond that but got an extension and was deemed an albatross contract in retrospect. The keys here are the 4apg for a wing, and good defense. Those are the hallmarks of a player whose skill set and style of play are conducive to continual improvement.
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Re: LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never? 

Post#60 » by Prokorov » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:12 pm

ecuhus1981 wrote:Take it easy on the ol' strawman, Prok. You've been merciless to him lately.

Just so we're all working on the same sheet of music, would you agree that max money is due a 4th-year veteran All-Star, and that 4th-year All-Stars are worth max money?


Agreed.

Do you acknowledge that, with a 2020 cap of $117mil (or greater, as some estimate), the max salaries for players with less than 7 years of NBA experience will start @ $29mil?


yes

Do you acknowledge that, with the standard maximum annual 8% raises on a maximum contract, the total $170mil comes to an average of $34mil over 5 years?


yes

The contract I'm proposing for Caris is way under a max, it's not even close. You keep talking max salary whenever we discuss 5 years, $120mil, but they aren't in the same ballpark. The 5-year deal I suggested would start at $20mil. If we wait until he turns in an All-Star campaign this season, we will have cost ourselves $50mil over the course of his next contract. That's cost-prohibitive hesitation.


risking the 50 million is far and away the wiser move. worst case you are paying an all-star what he deserves. paying levert 24 million now is an overpay. make him prove his worth. dont throw huge money with so many risk factors (injuries, efficiency, consitency, shooting).

he could become an all-star, sure... why pay for it when we will have RFA rights and cant have him prove it. if he wants a 4 year deal in the 68-72 range extension sure lets play ball. otherwise you are paying an oft injured roll player who struggles to shoot consistnetly like an all-star for no reason.

if he was a pending UFA it might be different. then is no risk of losing him, only of overpaying him

Now I'll set you to task: name a 24yo wing who averaged 13/4/4 with good defense in their 3rd year, never improved beyond that but got an extension and was deemed an albatross contract in retrospect. The keys here are the 4apg for a wing, and good defense. Those are the hallmarks of a player whose skill set and style of play are conducive to continual improvement.


Evan turner?

again no one is saying he cant become a 20/5/5 allstar who improves his 3point shooting. we are just saying he isnt that now, has durability concerns, and we have hs RFA rights. it would be a big overpay to give him that based on what he is done. make him prove he can stay healthy and take that next step
Kswiss wrote:Go watch a D'Angelo Russell highlight tape and tell me with a straight face the kid looks like a NBA prospect. I just can't see him in the league in three years.


Timestamp: July 21, 2017

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