LeVert & Prince Extensions: Now, Later or Never?

[ecuhus1981]

he could become an all-star, sure... why pay for it when we will have RFA rights and cant have him prove it. if he wants a 4 year deal in the 68-72 range extension sure lets play ball. otherwise you are paying an oft injured roll player who struggles to shoot consistnetly like an all-star for no reason.

if he was a pending UFA it might be different. then is no risk of losing him, only of overpaying him

Now I'll set you to task: name a 24yo wing who averaged 13/4/4 with good defense in their 3rd year, never improved beyond that but got an extension and was deemed an albatross contract in retrospect. The keys here are the 4apg for a wing, and good defense. Those are the hallmarks of a player whose skill set and style of play are conducive to continual improvement.

Evan turner?

again no one is saying he cant become a 20/5/5 allstar who improves his 3point shooting. we are just saying he isnt that now, has durability concerns, and we have hs RFA rights. it would be a big overpay to give him that based on what he is done. make him prove he can stay healthy and take that next step

Congratulations, you played yourself. You agreed that the average salary of a 5-year max contract for Caris would be $34mil, and I'm suggesting a $24mil average. Yet you still refer to that $24mil average salary is paying him "like an All-Star for no reason". NO ONE is positing that we should offer a max extension to Caris right now. $120mil over 5 years is not max money anymore, it's not even close.

Second, your Evan Turner example is a good one, and it proves my point. You met the statistical criteria I set out for you, and I doff my cap to you for that. HOWEVER, the reason Evan Turner does NOT meet the contractual criteria (max extension which later proved to be an albatross) is exactly why Caris is special enough to lock up now. Turner got traded from PHI to IND before his 4th year, and then Indy renounced his RFA rights the next summer. They knew that Turner was a ball-dominant, offensively ineffective player. He signed for 2 years, $7mil with BOS as a UFA, then got his big-money payday with Portland.

Even that 4-year, $70mil deal that Evan signed with the Blazers wasn't a max then, and that's all you want to offer Caris now, when he's a vastly superior player, and the cap is $40mil higher than when Evan signed his deal???

Check out win scores per 48, VORP, Off / Def Rtg, or any deep stat you like. Age-24, 3rd season Caris is about as good defensively as age-24, 3rd year Evan, and worlds better offensively. It's not just about %'s, although I'll note that Evan shot better from the FT line and 3PT line. Caris got to the line more often per minute, and also fouled less, stole and blocked more and had a better AST:TO ratio.

Bottom line, I think that our FO will do the right thing. As I mentioned, he's a ROCNation guy, so I expect to see an extension this summer. Don't be shocked if it's around the number I project, and know that if it is, it's a smart, calculated risk. We're in good hands.

[Prokorov]

Congratulations, you played yourself. You agreed that the average salary of a 5-year max contract for Caris would be $34mil, and I'm suggesting a $24mil average. Yet you still refer to that $24mil average salary is paying him "like an All-Star for no reason". NO ONE is positing that we should offer a max extension to Caris right now. $120mil over 5 years is not max money anymore, it's not even close.

i never said 5/120 was max money. i said it was 20% of the cap and an overpay for someone who hasnt proven he deserves it yet. my whole point is im fine paying him max money if he proves he is an allstar. id rather give him 34 if he proves he is an all-star then give him 24 million now because i dont think he is worth close to that yet. i think he is a 4/72 type player as of today.

Risk of paying levert 5/120 now - he doesnt improve a ton; still struggles with shooting/efficiency; injuries remain an issue

Risk of waiting on levert - he becomes an all-star and have to pay him the max which he would deserve.

there is no downside to waiting. there is a ton of downside of paying him 20% of the cap right now.

Even that 4-year, $70mil deal that Evan signed with the Blazers wasn't a max then, and that's all you want to offer Caris now, when he's a vastly superior player, and the cap is $40mil higher than when Evan signed his deal???

I think turner was drastically overpaid on that 4/70. i think that is leverts value as of today.

Check out win scores per 48, VORP, Off / Def Rtg, or any deep stat you like. Age-24, 3rd season Caris is about as good defensively as age-24, 3rd year Evan, and worlds better offensively. It's not just about %'s, although I'll note that Evan shot better from the FT line and 3PT line. Caris got to the line more often per minute, and also fouled less, stole and blocked more and had a better AST:TO ratio.

Caris also has the injury history and poor three point shooting. again, can caris become an all-star next year? 100% he can. do i pay him before he proves it given his injury history, consisteny issues, and lack of shooting? Nope.

Bottom line, I think that our FO will do the right thing. As I mentioned, he's a ROCNation guy, so I expect to see an extension this summer. Don't be shocked if it's around the number I project, and know that if it is, it's a smart, calculated risk. We're in good hands.

if its 5/120 its just marks with the same drastic overpay of role players he had with porter, crabbe, TJ, and bazemore

[ecuhus1981]

if its 5/120 its just marks with the same drastic overpay of role players he had with porter, crabbe, TJ, and bazemore

I'll not have this blasphemy. Trust the Marksman.

Caris is in an entirely different category of talent than everyone on your list, other than Otto. And just as you fear, IF Caris doesn't improve at all like Porter didn't after the big payday, he'll still be a movable asset for positive return.

[Keith Van Horn]

If Caris took 4/72 I'd jump on that. Seems like good middle ground.

I am expecting big things from him this year. And I don't think it's unrealistic that if he stays healthy and plays well alongside Kyrie and Joe, that he can be this year's Most Improved Player.

[ecuhus1981]

UPDATE: Kelly Oubre has re-signed with the Suns for 2 years, $30mil. Neither of the things I thought would happen came to pass. I figured either they would lock him up for 4 years, $80 mil or better as the rumors suggested, or he'd take the QO and re-enter the market next summer as a UFA. He'd have been one of the premier free agents in 2020, as opposed ot an afterthought as he was this offseason.

Kelly should have a large role in PHX this season and could put up legit stats, but maybe they threatened to freeze him out of the rotation if he didn't re-sign. In any case, we can safely assume that RFA rights did their job, and PHX was able to fend off potential suitors with the mere threat of matching. Thus, they got Oubre for less per year than predicted.

I'll score this one for Prok's side of the argument. I still think that locking up Caris now is the smart move.

[GTR11]

Pay this man and make sure he's a Nets for life.

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[Papi_swav]

Pay this man and make sure he's a Nets for life.

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Yea he killed Sixers this series, I think he's definitely an All star level player.. like I said give him a 5/80 deal now before we have to pay him the max next year.

[GTR11]

Pay this man and make sure he's a Nets for life.

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Yea he killed Sixers this series, I think he's definitely an All star level player.. like I said give him a 5/80 deal now before we have to pay him the max next year.

To be honest I don't really care since we a luxury tax team from now on. Harris, Din, Caris, Allen and Prince all great role players other teams dream to have. This is our time to make a run and it's no time to be cheap, thankfully our owner's willing to spend and provide best product Markinson can put out there.

[Papi_swav]

Pay this man and make sure he's a Nets for life.

Watch on YouTube

Yea he killed Sixers this series, I think he's definitely an All star level player.. like I said give him a 5/80 deal now before we have to pay him the max next year.

To be honest I don't really care since we a luxury tax team from now on. Harris, Din, Caris, Allen and Prince all great role players other teams dream to have. This is our time to make a run and it's no time to be cheap, thankfully our owner's willing to spend and provide best product Markinson can put out there.

I mean I get that and I don't really care either because it's not my money and these guys are filthy rich, but the rich always try to find ways to avoid paying the tax, nobody wants to pay tax. My thing is, I just hope we don't start getting rid of good players just to avoid paying the tax. We still have to pay Prince next year along with Levert and both won't be cheap especially if they have great years. Allen the year after and Harris too if we decide to re sign him. Will be interesting.

[Paradise]

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[Keith Van Horn]

I'm wishing we can get a 17-20 a year/multi year deal done for Caris.

He's "in" with Kyrie and KD and exemplifies the Brooklyn culture. Doesn't showboat or anything, just wants to win and see the team succeed. Whether he's starting or coming off the bench, the kid gets work done.

I think he can go through spurts, both during games and for long stretches of games, being the best player on a team. I think even if Kyrie and KD have slow or bad games, Levert can help carry the torch. He showed it leading up to the injury and then through the Philly series.

His defense is really good and he pairs VERY well with Kyrie's play style.

I know the medical history hasn't been great, but I'm sure the staff right now is doing everything to get his strength and durability up.


I do worry that if, in Durant's absence, that he blows it up by averaging 20/5/5, he may want to put the extension stuff on hold.

I'd move to get him locked up within a month of the season starting. Kenny can manage the minutes. We have such depth now.

[MrDollarBills]

I don't think Marks is letting LeVert hit RFA tbh. But he needs to stay healthy

[BigRedDog]

i agreewith prokorov he's being logical instead of reactionary... i dont think you can extend LeVert this early unless he takes a super team friendly deal. Guy is one of the most injury prone players in the league... far too much risk for barely any reward..you basically john wall yourself for a guy who will be restricted anyway... it doesnt make much sense and you dont even know if he fits well with Kyrie/Durant (i tend to doubt it). either way there is plenty of tiume to make a decision and a lot more downside than upside to making a quick decision

And Prince for all intents and purposes is a bust. He's closer to being out of the league than getting a multiyear deal...0% chance you extend him before you find out if he's going to make it as an NBA player or not.. the guy was consistently one of the worst players on a 20 win team... not someone you want to lock yourself into... his defensive metrics have been just plain abhorrent his entire career... i know the Nets love reclamation projects but this kid is already 25 and had plenty of time/opportunity in Atlanta to display any talent. He prob belongs overseas

[Prokorov]

I'm wishing we can get a 17-20 a year/multi year deal done for Caris.

He's "in" with Kyrie and KD and exemplifies the Brooklyn culture. Doesn't showboat or anything, just wants to win and see the team succeed. Whether he's starting or coming off the bench, the kid gets work done.

I think he can go through spurts, both during games and for long stretches of games, being the best player on a team. I think even if Kyrie and KD have slow or bad games, Levert can help carry the torch. He showed it leading up to the injury and then through the Philly series.

His defense is really good and he pairs VERY well with Kyrie's play style.

I know the medical history hasn't been great, but I'm sure the staff right now is doing everything to get his strength and durability up.


I do worry that if, in Durant's absence, that he blows it up by averaging 20/5/5, he may want to put the extension stuff on hold.

I'd move to get him locked up within a month of the season starting. Kenny can manage the minutes. We have such depth now.

Levert dropping 20/5/5 and us having to pay him the max isnt a bad thing... its actually the best case scenario. having to pay an all-star all-star money is a good thing

what hurts you is having to pay role guys huge money. which is the risk of extended a player before he proves his health and puts up the numbers

[Prokorov]

i agreewith prokorov he's being logical instead of reactionary... i dont think you can extend LeVert this early unless he takes a super team friendly deal. Guy is one of the most injury prone players in the league... far too much risk for barely any reward..you basically john wall yourself for a guy who will be restricted anyway... it doesnt make much sense and you dont even know if he fits well with Kyrie/Durant (i tend to doubt it). either way there is plenty of tiume to make a decision and a lot more downside than upside to making a quick decision

And Prince for all intents and purposes is a bust. He's closer to being out of the league than getting a multiyear deal...0% chance you extend him before you find out if he's going to make it as an NBA player or not.. the guy was consistently one of the worst players on a 20 win team... not someone you want to lock yourself into... his defensive metrics have been just plain abhorrent his entire career... i know the Nets love reclamation projects but this kid is already 25 and had plenty of time/opportunity in Atlanta to display any talent. He prob belongs overseas

Prince is a beast and the nets care little about defense. kenny is going to turn him into a better version of demare carroll

[Keith Van Horn]

I don't think Prince needs to show out big time anyway. It's probably better he plays solid system ball and shoots decent. It'll help keep him possible extension cost low. As long as he's an upgrade over RHJ here I'm happy. I think Rodi still starts over him.

I think a super solid second unit is going to be

Din
Nwaba
Temple
Prince
Jordan

[BigRedDog]

i agreewith prokorov he's being logical instead of reactionary... i dont think you can extend LeVert this early unless he takes a super team friendly deal. Guy is one of the most injury prone players in the league... far too much risk for barely any reward..you basically john wall yourself for a guy who will be restricted anyway... it doesnt make much sense and you dont even know if he fits well with Kyrie/Durant (i tend to doubt it). either way there is plenty of tiume to make a decision and a lot more downside than upside to making a quick decision

And Prince for all intents and purposes is a bust. He's closer to being out of the league than getting a multiyear deal...0% chance you extend him before you find out if he's going to make it as an NBA player or not.. the guy was consistently one of the worst players on a 20 win team... not someone you want to lock yourself into... his defensive metrics have been just plain abhorrent his entire career... i know the Nets love reclamation projects but this kid is already 25 and had plenty of time/opportunity in Atlanta to display any talent. He prob belongs overseas

Prince is a beast and the nets care little about defense. kenny is going to turn him into a better version of demare carroll

Yeah that's the big concern is that the Nets have put together a roster withou really any defenders... i dont quite get the strategy honestly. i know they want to run and score and all but durant had already turned into a marginal defender before the achilles... kyrie and prince are two of the weakest defenders in the league at their position...who knows if dinwiddie will ever become a passable defender again (i think he still might)... Deande jordan did show some real signs of life on that end last year.

I just dont agree with building around all these one dimensional guys like RHJ is a good defender but his offense is so bad he's rendered virtually unplayable.... i like two way guys.... one way guys can get you in the playoffs but they get played off the floor when it matters....

But i get it... .they've built a team that will generate revenue.... i just thought they were doing a pretty good job rebuilding the franchise from an impossible position and then they shoved all their chips in on a team that doesnt seem to be really much better than what they had already assembled... and has a lot of injury downside...and an unbelievably combustible roster by adding threee of the moodiest players in the league via free agency..


with regard to prince though.... atlanta is as good as anyone at molding 3&D players.... prince flopped badly there. i dont think the nets have much to work with... i think the nets have a solid developmental program... but this signing reminds me of when they got okafor... even the best artist in the world needs paint to work with...a canvas...a brush.... Prince doesnt have any tools and he's not young... he does remind me a bit of Dion Waiters..... a guy everyone had given up on completely... who seemed like could become a passable rotation player if someone ever got in his ear.... maybe brooklyn will be his wake up call... he's an interesting project to be sure... i dont blame them for taking a cheap flyer... id prob rather have him than a rookie given BKN is trying to "win now"

It just has the feeling of a team that was ascending and now fervently made a move because they thought they had to "do something" and now they're locked into a 2nd round squad with an aging roster while two super heavyweights (PHIlly and Mil) are just entering their prime in theiwr own conference...

[Prokorov]

i agreewith prokorov he's being logical instead of reactionary... i dont think you can extend LeVert this early unless he takes a super team friendly deal. Guy is one of the most injury prone players in the league... far too much risk for barely any reward..you basically john wall yourself for a guy who will be restricted anyway... it doesnt make much sense and you dont even know if he fits well with Kyrie/Durant (i tend to doubt it). either way there is plenty of tiume to make a decision and a lot more downside than upside to making a quick decision

And Prince for all intents and purposes is a bust. He's closer to being out of the league than getting a multiyear deal...0% chance you extend him before you find out if he's going to make it as an NBA player or not.. the guy was consistently one of the worst players on a 20 win team... not someone you want to lock yourself into... his defensive metrics have been just plain abhorrent his entire career... i know the Nets love reclamation projects but this kid is already 25 and had plenty of time/opportunity in Atlanta to display any talent. He prob belongs overseas

Prince is a beast and the nets care little about defense. kenny is going to turn him into a better version of demare carroll

Yeah that's the big concern is that the Nets have put together a roster withou really any defenders... i dont quite get the strategy honestly. i know they want to run and score and all but durant had already turned into a marginal defender before the achilles... kyrie and prince are two of the weakest defenders in the league at their position...who knows if dinwiddie will ever become a passable defender again (i think he still might)... Deande jordan did show some real signs of life on that end last year.

I just dont agree with building around all these one dimensional guys like RHJ is a good defender but his offense is so bad he's rendered virtually unplayable.... i like two way guys.... one way guys can get you in the playoffs but they get played off the floor when it matters....

But i get it... .they've built a team that will generate revenue.... i just thought they were doing a pretty good job rebuilding the franchise from an impossible position and then they shoved all their chips in on a team that doesnt seem to be really much better than what they had already assembled... and has a lot of injury downside...and an unbelievably combustible roster by adding threee of the moodiest players in the league via free agency..


with regard to prince though.... atlanta is as good as anyone at molding 3&D players.... prince flopped badly there. i dont think the nets have much to work with... i think the nets have a solid developmental program... but this signing reminds me of when they got okafor... even the best artist in the world needs paint to work with...a canvas...a brush.... Prince doesnt have any tools and he's not young... he does remind me a bit of Dion Waiters..... a guy everyone had given up on completely... who seemed like could become a passable rotation player if someone ever got in his ear.... maybe brooklyn will be his wake up call... he's an interesting project to be sure... i dont blame them for taking a cheap flyer... id prob rather have him than a rookie given BKN is trying to "win now"

It just has the feeling of a team that was ascending and now fervently made a move because they thought they had to "do something" and now they're locked into a 2nd round squad with an aging roster while two super heavyweights (PHIlly and Mil) are just entering their prime in theiwr own conference...

lol at "shoved all their chips in"

we gave up nxt to nothing and even added a first from GS

we return 4 starters and 7 rotation players while adding stars for just cap

we still have all our chips.

[BigRedDog]

Prince is a beast and the nets care little about defense. kenny is going to turn him into a better version of demare carroll

Yeah that's the big concern is that the Nets have put together a roster withou really any defenders... i dont quite get the strategy honestly. i know they want to run and score and all but durant had already turned into a marginal defender before the achilles... kyrie and prince are two of the weakest defenders in the league at their position...who knows if dinwiddie will ever become a passable defender again (i think he still might)... Deande jordan did show some real signs of life on that end last year.

I just dont agree with building around all these one dimensional guys like RHJ is a good defender but his offense is so bad he's rendered virtually unplayable.... i like two way guys.... one way guys can get you in the playoffs but they get played off the floor when it matters....

But i get it... .they've built a team that will generate revenue.... i just thought they were doing a pretty good job rebuilding the franchise from an impossible position and then they shoved all their chips in on a team that doesnt seem to be really much better than what they had already assembled... and has a lot of injury downside...and an unbelievably combustible roster by adding threee of the moodiest players in the league via free agency..


with regard to prince though.... atlanta is as good as anyone at molding 3&D players.... prince flopped badly there. i dont think the nets have much to work with... i think the nets have a solid developmental program... but this signing reminds me of when they got okafor... even the best artist in the world needs paint to work with...a canvas...a brush.... Prince doesnt have any tools and he's not young... he does remind me a bit of Dion Waiters..... a guy everyone had given up on completely... who seemed like could become a passable rotation player if someone ever got in his ear.... maybe brooklyn will be his wake up call... he's an interesting project to be sure... i dont blame them for taking a cheap flyer... id prob rather have him than a rookie given BKN is trying to "win now"

It just has the feeling of a team that was ascending and now fervently made a move because they thought they had to "do something" and now they're locked into a 2nd round squad with an aging roster while two super heavyweights (PHIlly and Mil) are just entering their prime in theiwr own conference...

lol at "shoved all their chips in"

we gave up nxt to nothing and even added a first from GS

we return 4 starters and 7 rotation players while adding stars for just cap

we still have all our chips.

Well thats true. And i guess DAR's extension kinda put you on the clock to have to do something one way or the other. Thats what is so tough about rebuilding without a full stable of picks. Eventuallly you have to make tough decisions one way or another. I dont know im not a kyrie fan at all but looking at it objectively he did have a bounceback season last year and he's only going to turn 28 towards the end of next season. it will take some getting adjusted to playing out without all the shooting around him in boston this year though.

With durant i dont think any of us really know what's left in the tank... His FTA dropped precipitously a few years ago after the foot injuries and he really switched to being a pull up specialist... then last year his 3pt shot kinda abandoned him.. his defense has really slipped the last few years in GSW... this is all nitpicking as he was still a borderline top 10 player in the league last year...but with an achilles injury is he still top ~25? I tend to doubt it... we've never seen anyone return from an achilles injury and play well... granted most guys were older than him... but from Isaiah Thomas, Kobe bryant, demarcus cousins, chauncey billups, and wes matthews no one in the history of he league has ever played well... its a risky proposition for sure.. if i had to guess he remakes himself as a "Stretch 4" instead of a "Playmaking 4" and is more of a Harrison Barnes type stand in the corner and space the floor guy than a put the ball on the floor, central hub type... and honestly thats still beneficial with a guy like kyrie who can iso and run the offense. with durant id be really worried about his commitment on the defensive end post injury. He developed some really bad habits in GSW those last few years when they were winning easy.

[MrDollarBills]

i agreewith prokorov he's being logical instead of reactionary... i dont think you can extend LeVert this early unless he takes a super team friendly deal. Guy is one of the most injury prone players in the league... far too much risk for barely any reward..you basically john wall yourself for a guy who will be restricted anyway... it doesnt make much sense and you dont even know if he fits well with Kyrie/Durant (i tend to doubt it). either way there is plenty of tiume to make a decision and a lot more downside than upside to making a quick decision

And Prince for all intents and purposes is a bust. He's closer to being out of the league than getting a multiyear deal...0% chance you extend him before you find out if he's going to make it as an NBA player or not.. the guy was consistently one of the worst players on a 20 win team... not someone you want to lock yourself into... his defensive metrics have been just plain abhorrent his entire career... i know the Nets love reclamation projects but this kid is already 25 and had plenty of time/opportunity in Atlanta to display any talent. He prob belongs overseas

The same Taurean Prince that has been knocking down 39% of his three point attempts on decent volume over the last two years? He will thrive in Kenny Atkinson's system.

We've heard people for the last 3 years talk down on every player that has come through here and more times than not the Nets coaching staff/training team gets the best out of these guys. If Sean Marks sees something in Taurean Prince, it was worth it to get him in here.