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This is going to be a long post, but please bear with me. So we're roughly past the midseason point of the year, and it is safe to say that the the NBA season hasn't gone the way most of us had thought. The number of injuries have been a large unfortunate part of the season, but even when players have been available, things simply haven't clicked the way we would have thought. Our hope was that we'd be able establish ourselves as a solid playoffs without KD, so that when KD would come back next year, we'd be ready to contend. So while injuries certainly have spoiled the season, what we've seen of the healthy team so far still has been far from good enough. I do want to point out that this thread isn't a knee jerk reaction thread, but a patient response based on what I've been thinking for a while now.

Last season was a great season because the team overachieved and surprised all of us, making it a great "feel good" sports story. We had hoped that players like Levert, Allen, Kurucs etc. would continue their development and improve this year. But with the possible exception of Allen, basically everyone on the roster has regressed from last year. Even for Allen, the inconsistency, and the flaws are still apparent. And while I feel like our expectations for Allen are unfairly high (he has way outperformed for a 22nd pick, especially given that he's still very young), we're trying to build a win now contender. Recent comments made by Marks, Tsai, and obviously Kyrie emphasize that mentality. Unfortunately, we don't have much room for "he's young and needs to develop" if he's going to be our starter. And Allen's weaknesses are compounded by the fact that the top Eastern teams have strong bigs that give him trouble (except Celtics). Ideally, imo Allen would be a fantastic backup C to have, but with DJ here for long-term (and a non-option to trade), Allen might have to be the sacrificial lamb going forward.

There's also an argument to be made that Dinwiddie has regressed in a way from last season, as his efficiency is way down compared to previous season (53.6% TS% vs 58% TS% last year). Obviously, I want to note that this is a bit unfair on Dinwiddie, as its primarily a result of our injury crisis, but Dinwiddie's FT% and 3pt shooting have still regressed. That being said, he is one of the best value contracts in the league, and excellent insurance for injury prone Kyrie, so I do think that he should be part of the contender core going forward. I'm not going to spend too much time talking about the others (Levert, Kurucs, etc.), because I feel like most of us are on the same page regarding their season so far. I feel like that this year has been an audition year for many of these guys to determine who fits our timeline going forward.

Anyways, takeaways from the season on roster composition so far:

1) Allen and DJ's skillsets are redundant in the sense that they are the same type of centers (rim running athletic Cs). While this is something we can live with, we would be much better off with a stretch 5 who is competent defensively. A 5 out offense with two elite scorers on the team can be unstoppable. So I suggest trading one of them, and since it can't be DJ (due to locker room influence), it's gotta be Allen who has much higher trade value anyways.

2) Both Dinwiddie and Levert together aren't great fits for this roster. With KD back next year and Kyrie healthy, we'll have too many ball dominant scorers, and while KD & Kyrie are elite players with Dinwiddie being an above average scorer, Levert has yet to prove his worth here. Levert has shown it in flashes, but there's still no consistency to him on top of being injury prone. It doesn't help that both Levert and Dinwiddie are below average shooters, which limits their off ball potential. So imo, one of Levert/Dinwiddie have to be traded for a better roster fit, and the evidence clearly points to Levert being the obvious answer here. Levert will inevitably bounce back at some point this season (provided he stays healthy), but we need consistency out of our guys.

3) The glaring need for two way players on the roster. Defense was the big question mark coming into the season, and it has been a horror show too often this season. Sure, we don't rank that awfully in defensive metrics, but none of the metrics prove us to be good on that end either. And more importantly, we've shown an inability to successfully defend any of the top teams in the league. We'll eventually figure out our offense because we have too much talent to fail on that end, so I'm not worried about that. There are very few players on this roster if any, that can be considered positive contributors on both ends. The only guy on the team who was performing like a high level 3&D guy tore his achilles.

4) Taurean Prince isn't good enough to be worth keeping. Now I want to clarify this by saying that I've repeatedly mentioned that Prince will look much better when the team is fully healthy and clicking. And I still do believe that, but even a version of Prince playing decent isn't really worth keeping, when you could use his contract to get a better piece/fit. His $14.5 mill salary is a valuable asset for a capped out team like ours, and we can get creative (with use of other assets) to pull off some interesting trades.

5) Reconsideration on our PF perception. Under Markinson, we've been frequently using SFs or undersized guys as our PFs, but it may be time to reconsider that with top teams in the league adding size or generally being big. Now I know that many expect KD to be our 4, and while I certainly expect KD to be our 4 in death lineups, I'm not sure that him being a 4 full-time is a good idea. While he has the obviously length, I'm not sure if its a good idea for a post-achilles SF to be guarding stronger PFs full-time. In addition, KD has his own preference in playing SF, and Kyrie recently also implied something ("With KD out, we have Joe playing 3").

6) There must be accountability for Kenny Atkinson and he can't be treated like an untouchable piece. I've tried to be fair to Kenny, and I thought he did a tremendous job last season getting team to where it was. Even this year, I gave him a lot of praise/credit when we had a winning stretch with Kyrie/Levert out. But the problem is that we still look dysfunctional even when we have those players back. Our performances against most of the top teams in the league have been dreadful, there is a glaring lack of effort/energy many times as we get outhustled and outworked, and we're the worst 4th quarter team in the entire league (which is unacceptable). The in-game management and adjustments have been awful way too often, and while we don't have great defensive personnel, our defensive schemes often leave me scratching my head. This is not a call to fire Kenny Atkinson, not at all, but I'm just making the point that our head coach must be held accountable for his shortcomings when they happen. And if it's not working out long-term, then we have to admit that and make changes.

Now basing off that, on to trade ideas for summer:

BKN-NOP

Nets get: Jrue Holiday, JJ Redick, Kenrich Williams
Pelicans get: Caris Levert, Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince (might need pick/another asset)

Breakdown: Nets get one of the most coveted two way players in the league with Jrue Holiday, who slots in nicely as our starting SG. He's a perfect fit for our system as a two-guard comfortable with ball handling duties, a decent scoring option, and a competent 3 pt shooter. JJ Redick, who will be 36 in the league, is still having one of his best shooting years right now. JJ and his wife love Brooklyn, owning a condo here, and we previously offered a contract to JJ years ago in free agency. JJ would be our backup SG or someone who can slot into our small ball lineup, and along with Joe Harris, our shooting would be elite in the league.

For Pelicans, they get a youngish player with potential (in Levert) who is locked up for the next 3 years (something valuable to small market teams). He can form a nice young scoring tandem with Ingram and Zion. Allen is the highest value asset from Nets end, however Pelicans already have Hayes so they might not be interested, but this is workable with a third team that will take Allen. Prince is salary filler here, but a player who fits their roster well. To top it off, Trajan Langdon (Marks' former right hand man) is GM there, so this helps in relationship aspect to facilitate trade (and player valuation).


BKN-SAC

Nets get: Dewayne Dedmon
Kings get: Taurean Prince

Breakdown: A fairly straightforward swap, a bad contract for another similar bad contract. Dedmon wants out and has been awful this year, but if he regains, he's a decent stretch 5 option with defense. For Kings, Holmes has blossomed, which makes Dedmon completely expendable for them. Kings could use a forward like Prince in place of him.

BKN-Spurs

Nets get: Rudy Gay, Derrick White
Spurs get: Taurean Prince, Rodions Kurucs, 2nd round pick

Breakdown: Nets get a player in Rudy Gay who has been converted into a full time 4 over the past few years. He's in decline, but still a pretty solid rotation player who fits the roster well, and much better suited to playing 4 than anyone else on this roster right now. The bigger asset here for the Nets is Derrick White who is a low-key solid, young 3&D guard. He's not going to be anything more than a solid rotation player, but he's a good rotation piece to have. Spurs get Prince for salary matching purposes, and Pop can make a pretty solid player out of him. Likewise with Kurucs, who fits Spurs' tradition of Euro players. Nets can throw in a 2nd round pick depending on Spurs value of White.


Moving on to FA targets in the summer, I'm not a CBA expert but from my understanding, we'll have the tax payers' MLE to work with (~6 mill). Not sure about sign & trade possibilities, since I know that it can hardcap the team. IMO, the targets must be veteran bigs who can add spacing, defense and leadership to the team. And in most of these cases, guys will have to take paycuts.

FA targets:

Marc Gasol (ideal fit)
Paul Millsap (ideal fit)
Serge Ibaka (likely way out of price range)
Aron Baynes
Markieff Morris
Marvin Williams
JaMychal Green

There are probably other names as well but these are the ones off the top of my head. We can only pick one, but Marc Gasol or Millsap are the ones I'd want the most (depending on other moves we make) as they give us a lot of qualities that we need badly. They're both also pretty old, so I can see them taking paycuts to be on a contender, even if they're already on good playoffs teams. In any case, we need to make our exception count to address major needs on our roster.

Also with the trades, those are just some of my possible suggestions, it doesn't mean that I 100% support them (with the exception of the Pelicans trade). If we want, we could also easily be in play for guys like Kevin Love or Blake Griffin as I do think that we can get them without giving up much. But I'd rather aim for lesser profile pieces to round out team depth and strengths. Anyway, this has been a long ass post as I've said a lot, but feel free to add your feedback, any FA/trade suggestions or tell me why I'm so wrong.


And for those who can't be bothered to read the full post, tl;dr-Kyrie was right.

Lol at these trade offers.

No offense but this entire post screams Billy King / James Dolan.

I agree with the thinking here, that although we couldn't have predicted this season's injuries, we need to use the data we've collected thus far to make this best decision going forward.

I have no clue why Prince and Levert seemingly had zero motivation over the summer to improve defensively. That was always going to be a critical piece for them to fit long-term next to offensive stars like Irving and Durant. We don't need them to jack up shots, we need them the lockdown opposing stars, and they are light years away from that. They both seem to have worked on their offensive floor game, but unless Kyrie and Kevin want to become defensive stoppers and clean up the kids' messes, it just can't work as a cohesive unit. I don't care how much offense you have, you need balance in the starting lineup, folks that don't mind doing the dirty work and shutting down their matchup.

I put the majority of the responsibility on these two players. We've given them the extensions they sought, and they haven't developed into the pieces that will fit next to our stars. I also put some responsibility on our coach, he should have held them to a higher expectation defensively. They shouldn't be in the game making the mistakes they do, I don't care how shorthanded we are. Letting them blow defensive assignments CONSTANTLY and stay in the game sends the wrong message, and sets them up to be even worse complements to our superstars down the road.

7footMONSTER wrote:Lol at these trade offers.

No offense but this entire post screams Billy King / James Dolan.

Well it would be nice to know why you feel that way instead of just driving by, really adding nothing.

ecuhus1981 wrote:I agree with the thinking here, that although we couldn't have predicted this season's injuries, we need to use the data we've collected thus far to make this best decision going forward.

I have no clue why Prince and Levert seemingly had zero motivation over the summer to improve defensively. That was always going to be a critical piece for them to fit long-term next to offensive stars like Irving and Durant. We don't need them to jack up shots, we need them the lockdown opposing stars, and they are light years away from that. They both seem to have worked on their offensive floor game, but unless Kyrie and Kevin want to become defensive stoppers and clean up the kids' messes, it just can't work as a cohesive unit. I don't care how much offense you have, you need balance in the starting lineup, folks that don't mind doing the dirty work and shutting down their matchup.

I put the majority of the responsibility on these two players. We've given them the extensions they sought, and they haven't developed into the pieces that will fit next to our stars. I also put some responsibility on our coach, he should have held them to a higher expectation defensively. They shouldn't be in the game making the mistakes they do, I don't care how shorthanded we are. Letting them blow defensive assignments CONSTANTLY and stay in the game sends the wrong message, and sets them up to be even worse complements to our superstars down the road.

Agreed, those two have been a large part of the problem, and because of their extensions, they'll be making a combined $30 mill/season over next two years. But their salary is valuable in the sense that it can help us absorb either star player contracts or just better players.

DarkXaero wrote:Agreed, those two have been a large part of the problem, and because of their extensions, they'll be making a combined $30 mill/season over next two years. But their salary is valuable in the sense that it can help us absorb either star player contracts or just better players.

This was part of the rationale behind the extensions, that in the then perceived worst-case scenario, they are at least solid trade ballast for matching salary for a 3rd star. However, we didn't count on either of them regressing so harshly, which unfortunately they have.

To most teams, they aren't worth their next-year's salary, because they're making starter money but not producing at even a solid role-player's level. I think they could realize their potential on another team, but the system and roles they are occupying don't shine up their value. Herein lies the problem.

ecuhus1981 wrote:

DarkXaero wrote:Agreed, those two have been a large part of the problem, and because of their extensions, they'll be making a combined $30 mill/season over next two years. But their salary is valuable in the sense that it can help us absorb either star player contracts or just better players.

This was part of the rationale behind the extensions, that in the then perceived worst-case scenario, they are at least solid trade ballast for matching salary for a 3rd star. However, we didn't count on either of them regressing so harshly, which unfortunately they have.

To most teams, they aren't worth their next-year's salary, because they're making starter money but not producing at even a solid role-player's level. I think they could realize their potential on another team, but the system and roles they are occupying don't shine up their value. Herein lies the problem.

Yeah, I don't think their value is completely lost though. I think Levert still has positive value for quite a few teams because of his upside that has intrigued us. If we were still a developing young team, I wouldn't trade him, I think we're only entertaining the idea because of the win now situation we'll find ourselves in soon. And for the poster above and fans like him, that is the important thing to understand here. Starting next season, we'll be in win now mode. This is something that has been directly or indirectly reiterated by Marks, Tsai, and obviously Kyrie. Just because you don't like the direction doesn't change the reality.

DarkXaero wrote:1) Allen and DJ's skillsets are redundant in the sense that they are the same type of centers (rim running athletic Cs). While this is something we can live with, we would be much better off with a stretch 5 who is competent defensively. A 5 out offense with two elite scorers on the team can be unstoppable. So I suggest trading one of them, and since it can't be DJ (due to locker room influence), it's gotta be Allen who has much higher trade value anyways.

It is redundant by design. Nets were insanely iso heavy when allen sat last year because Ed Davis couldnt play the pick and roll. Atkinson can now run the same offense for 48 minutes no matter who is in. RJ broke this down vs the bucks with Claxton in to, saying its such an advantage to be able to plug in bigs who can all play that way

I think there is value in 5-out at times. But you can go Durant at center for a 5-out death lineup and force teams to go small against us. its going to be deadly

2) Both Dinwiddie and Levert together aren't great fits for this roster. With KD back next year and Kyrie healthy, we'll have too many ball dominant scorers, and while KD & Kyrie are elite players with Dinwiddie being an above average scorer, Levert has yet to prove his worth here. Levert has shown it in flashes, but there's still no consistency to him on top of being injury prone. It doesn't help that both Levert and Dinwiddie are below average shooters, which limits their off ball potential. So imo, one of Levert/Dinwiddie have to be traded for a better roster fit, and the evidence clearly points to Levert being the obvious answer here. Levert will inevitably bounce back at some point this season (provided he stays healthy), but we need consistency out of our guys.

I'd be more onboard with this if our guards were more durable. since they arent i think a glut of Guards is a neccessity. i'd be ok dealing levert + picks for a more durable version of levert.

3) The glaring need for two way players on the roster. Defense was the big question mark coming into the season, and it has been a horror show too often this season. Sure, we don't rank that awfully in defensive metrics, but none of the metrics prove us to be good on that end either. And more importantly, we've shown an inability to successfully defend any of the top teams in the league. We'll eventually figure out our offense because we have too much talent to fail on that end, so I'm not worried about that. There are very few players on this roster if any, that can be considered positive contributors on both ends. The only guy on the team who was performing like a high level 3&D guy tore his achilles.

I dont think we need a 2-way guy so much as a defensive specialist who hustles. I am still perplexed we let shumpert go. We need a guy like that

4) Taurean Prince isn't good enough to be worth keeping. Now I want to clarify this by saying that I've repeatedly mentioned that Prince will look much better when the team is fully healthy and clicking. And I still do believe that, but even a version of Prince playing decent isn't really worth keeping, when you could use his contract to get a better piece/fit. His $14.5 mill salary is a valuable asset for a capped out team like ours, and we can get creative (with use of other assets) to pull off some interesting trades.

I think his age and salary are certainly things that make it easier to make a trade with him and say levert in a package. But im still high on him. works hard, defense improved and we know he can shoot. i think you cant evaluate it until he has 25+ games next to Kyrie. but the contract, skillset, and age are certainly textbook piece in a big trade

5) Reconsideration on our PF perception. Under Markinson, we've been frequently using SFs or undersized guys as our PFs, but it may be time to reconsider that with top teams in the league adding size or generally being big. Now I know that many expect KD to be our 4, and while I certainly expect KD to be our 4 in death lineups, I'm not sure that him being a 4 full-time is a good idea. While he has the obviously length, I'm not sure if its a good idea for a post-achilles SF to be guarding stronger PFs full-time. In addition, KD has his own preference in playing SF, and Kyrie recently also implied something ("With KD out, we have Joe playing 3").

The league has never been smaller and there is no philosiphy that markinson swears by more then that a PF is a wasted roster spot. KD at SF to me makes no sense. id play him at center before SF next to a pair of bigs. There arent "stronger PFs" really other than the 17 of them on the knicks. Durant is bigger and heavier than most.

6) There must be accountability for Kenny Atkinson and he can't be treated like an untouchable piece. I've tried to be fair to Kenny, and I thought he did a tremendous job last season getting team to where it was. Even this year, I gave him a lot of praise/credit when we had a winning stretch with Kyrie/Levert out. But the problem is that we still look dysfunctional even when we have those players back. Our performances against most of the top teams in the league have been dreadful, there is a glaring lack of effort/energy many times as we get outhustled and outworked, and we're the worst 4th quarter team in the entire league (which is unacceptable). The in-game management and adjustments have been awful way too often, and while we don't have great defensive personnel, our defensive schemes often leave me scratching my head. This is not a call to fire Kenny Atkinson, not at all, but I'm just making the point that our head coach must be held accountable for his shortcomings when they happen. And if it's not working out long-term, then we have to admit that and make changes.

Kenny is an elite coach and its less than 5 years in for him. He is going to get a massive extensions. players love him, upper management loves him, and he has gotten outstanding results. no team in the NBA plays harder than we do and no team accepts their roles more than we do. it is a miracle we are within a handful of games of .500 with these injuries. we should be like 8-32 or something like that

BKN-NOP

Nets get: Jrue Holiday, JJ Redick, Kenrich Williams
Pelicans get: Caris Levert, Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince (might need pick/another asset)

would take like 2-3 firsts. Holiday is elite defensively and a 21/8 guy who shoots offensively and under 30. i think he is a free agent also, so this doesnt really work without a sign and trade which we cant do cause we will be in the tax. but obviously a great trade for us.

BKN-SAC

Nets get: Dewayne Dedmon
Kings get: Taurean Prince

I'm a huge dedmon guy but you dont trade a starting calibur wing for a 3rd center espeically with claxton here too

BKN-Spurs

Nets get: Rudy Gay, Derrick White
Spurs get: Taurean Prince, Rodions Kurucs, 2nd round pick

we should be getting a first in this deal

Moving on to FA targets in the summer, I'm not a CBA expert but from my understanding, we'll have the tax payers' MLE to work with (~6 mill). Not sure about sign & trade possibilities, since I know that it can hardcap the team. IMO, the targets must be veteran bigs who can add spacing, defense and leadership to the team. And in most of these cases, guys will have to take paycuts.

FA targets:

Marc Gasol (ideal fit)
Paul Millsap (ideal fit)
Serge Ibaka (likely way out of price range)
Aron Baynes
Markieff Morris
Marvin Williams
JaMychal Green

we cant afford any of those guys. all we have is the tax payer MLE and those guys will all make 10+ million

ecuhus1981 wrote:I agree with the thinking here, that although we couldn't have predicted this season's injuries, we need to use the data we've collected thus far to make this best decision going forward.

I have no clue why Prince and Levert seemingly had zero motivation over the summer to improve defensively. That was always going to be a critical piece for them to fit long-term next to offensive stars like Irving and Durant. We don't need them to jack up shots, we need them the lockdown opposing stars, and they are light years away from that. They both seem to have worked on their offensive floor game, but unless Kyrie and Kevin want to become defensive stoppers and clean up the kids' messes, it just can't work as a cohesive unit. I don't care how much offense you have, you need balance in the starting lineup, folks that don't mind doing the dirty work and shutting down their matchup.

I put the majority of the responsibility on these two players. We've given them the extensions they sought, and they haven't developed into the pieces that will fit next to our stars. I also put some responsibility on our coach, he should have held them to a higher expectation defensively. They shouldn't be in the game making the mistakes they do, I don't care how shorthanded we are. Letting them blow defensive assignments CONSTANTLY and stay in the game sends the wrong message, and sets them up to be even worse complements to our superstars down the road.

imagine if we gave levert the 120 million you suggested

DarkXaero wrote:

7footMONSTER wrote:Lol at these trade offers.

No offense but this entire post screams Billy King / James Dolan.

Well it would be nice to know why you feel that way instead of just driving by, really adding nothing.

I think the thinking in those trades are good. i think you underrate what it would take to get Jrue and i think you havent watch Rudy gay since he fell off a cliff

ecuhus1981 wrote:

DarkXaero wrote:Agreed, those two have been a large part of the problem, and because of their extensions, they'll be making a combined $30 mill/season over next two years. But their salary is valuable in the sense that it can help us absorb either star player contracts or just better players.

This was part of the rationale behind the extensions, that in the then perceived worst-case scenario, they are at least solid trade ballast for matching salary for a 3rd star. However, we didn't count on either of them regressing so harshly, which unfortunately they have.

To most teams, they aren't worth their next-year's salary, because they're making starter money but not producing at even a solid role-player's level. I think they could realize their potential on another team, but the system and roles they are occupying don't shine up their value. Herein lies the problem.

Levert didnt really regress. his numbers are pretty similar to last year. he was always a poor finisher at the rim and below avg shooter with suspect D. His volume and role are down, so he has less big games and hes been hurt

prince also i dont think regressed, he was just forced into a role he shouldnt play. his D was as good or probably better than last year and he is shooting almost 38% from three when Kyrie is in the lineup. he has looked alot better since kyrie came back

Haven't watched as many games as I would have liked this year, but Allen is the absolute least of out concerns imho and is a main building block of a championship contending team, at least amd especially as the 3rd or 4th best starter next to KD, Kyrie and a possible 3rd stud depending on how trades shake out.

I like some of the specific players you have targeted, but not for the players and assets you have outbound in each separate deal.

If Allen is outgoing, a straight up young stud who forms a big 3 needs to be Brooklyn bound, like a Beal this off-season, or CJ McCollum, Jamaal Murray or KAT now. Even with McCollum I pause with his inclusion.

vincecarter4pres wrote:Haven't watched as many games as I would have liked this year, but Allen is the absolute least of out concerns imho and is a main building block of a championship contending team, at least amd especially as the 3rd or 4th best starter next to KD, Kyrie and a possible 3rd stud depending on how trades shake out.

I like some of the specific players you have targeted, but not for the players and assets you have outbound in each separate deal.

If Allen is outgoing, a straight up young stud who forms a big 3 needs to be Brooklyn bound, like a Beal this off-season, or CJ McCollum, Jamaal Murray or KAT now. Even with McCollum I pause with his inclusion.

Yeah it doesnt make sense to trade Allen. He fits to well with the core as a guy who can make an impact iwthout needing the ball. He is also a great screener, which shouldnt be overlooked for a team that runs so much action off of them.

I'd love to make a run at mccollum with something like: Levert, Prince, Rodi, Claxton, 1st. If CJ can work wit Lillard he can with Kyrie.

Kyrie | CJ | Harris | Durant | Allen
Spencer | Musa | Temple| Jordan

great core. add shumpert to that team and another ring chasing F/C hybrid.

Klay Thompson is another guy id target if GSW looks to break it up.

DarkXaero wrote:

7footMONSTER wrote:Lol at these trade offers.

No offense but this entire post screams Billy King / James Dolan.

Well it would be nice to know why you feel that way instead of just driving by, really adding nothing.

Pelicans are gearing up for a playoff push around Zion. Holiday is arguable the best 2-way guard in the league.

New Orleans struggles to sign superstar free agents. Why would they trade Jrue Holiday for our role players?

Prokorov wrote:1) Allen and DJ's skillsets are redundant in the sense that they are the same type of centers (rim running athletic Cs). While this is something we can live with, we would be much better off with a stretch 5 who is competent defensively. A 5 out offense with two elite scorers on the team can be unstoppable. So I suggest trading one of them, and since it can't be DJ (due to locker room influence), it's gotta be Allen who has much higher trade value anyways.

It is redundant by design. Nets were insanely iso heavy when allen sat last year because Ed Davis couldnt play the pick and roll. Atkinson can now run the same offense for 48 minutes no matter who is in. RJ broke this down vs the bucks with Claxton in to, saying its such an advantage to be able to plug in bigs who can all play that way

I think there is value in 5-out at times. But you can go Durant at center for a 5-out death lineup and force teams to go small against us. its going to be deadly

First off, thanks for taking the time to respond to the whole post. I understand that it has initially been done by design, I know Marks isn't stupid. And before the season, I was okay with it, but after watching us play, I've come to change my mind. Last season was a different situation, that roster wasn't built to be a playoffs team, but ended up being one. We've been running a lot of dribble handoff action with our centers at the top of the key, and that is something Allen really isn't suited to at all. Allen isn't a good passer at all, he won't turn the ball over, but he will make the most simple passes, and is very passive when he receives the ball in those areas. I just think that having a stretch 5 (with passing skills being a bonus) would make a tremendous difference for us there. DJ at least tries to be a playmaker, to varying degrees of success. With Allen, I don't see any of that. I do agree that we're likely to play KD as stretch 5 in certain death lineups. But again, I think top Eastern teams are strong at C/PF positions, so I don't know how well that would work.

I'd be more onboard with this if our guards were more durable. since they arent i think a glut of Guards is a neccessity. i'd be ok dealing levert + picks for a more durable version of levert.

Of course, this is based on the idea that if we're trading Levert, we're still getting a guard replacement one way or the other. By trading Levert and keeping Dinwiddie, we're keeping the durable one out of the two, and getting rid of the injury prone one.

I dont think we need a 2-way guy so much as a defensive specialist who hustles. I am still perplexed we let shumpert go. We need a guy like that

Well Marks chose to get rid of Shumpert because he was terrible offensively. So I don't think Marks is interested in defense only specialists. You still want your defensive guys to be able to provide basic offensive skills, like hit the 3 at an average'ish rate (Nwaba was doing this extremely well, and Temple before his overuse).

I think his age and salary are certainly things that make it easier to make a trade with him and say levert in a package. But im still high on him. works hard, defense improved and we know he can shoot. i think you cant evaluate it until he has 25+ games next to Kyrie. but the contract, skillset, and age are certainly textbook piece in a big trade

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying there. I do think that he has become an easy scapegoat for most Nets fans right now, and while he has given them reason to, he's still a much better player than he has shown. And he could be much better with the team healthy and clicking. But the question is whether that version of him is still worth keeping over what we could potential get, if we package him + Levert.

The league has never been smaller and there is no philosiphy that markinson swears by more then that a PF is a wasted roster spot. KD at SF to me makes no sense. id play him at center before SF next to a pair of bigs. There arent "stronger PFs" really other than the 17 of them on the knicks. Durant is bigger and heavier than most.

I disagree with this. We've even quietly entered the era of unconventional PGs too (Simmons, Lebron, Doncic, Harden) on playoffs teams. Many of the top teams in the league are huge (Lakers, Bucks, Sixers, etc.). So this notion that the league is smaller than ever is false. If anything we're trending towards size/length with high level skillsets at every position. The Warriors are broken up so contenders don't have to worry about their death lineup anymore.

Kenny is an elite coach and its less than 5 years in for him. He is going to get a massive extensions. players love him, upper management loves him, and he has gotten outstanding results. no team in the NBA plays harder than we do and no team accepts their roles more than we do. it is a miracle we are within a handful of games of .500 with these injuries. we should be like 8-32 or something like that

I disagree that he's an elite coach by any means, I would put plenty of head coaches above him. Yes, the players seem to love him, and our management clearly does as well, there's no question that he's a super likeable guy, no one's arguing otherwise. You can't say that no team in the NBA plays harder than we do, when that simply hasn't been the case in many of our games this season, when teams have beaten us to loose balls, shown more energy, and pressured the **** out of us. And I disagree with it being a miracle about where we are right now. Like I said, we're the worst 4th quarter team in the entire league, and there's no defending that statistic.

would take like 2-3 firsts. Holiday is elite defensively and a 21/8 guy who shoots offensively and under 30. i think he is a free agent also, so this doesnt really work without a sign and trade which we cant do cause we will be in the tax. but obviously a great trade for us.

Nah, Jrue is an expiring contract in 2020-21 (and will be age 30), so it wouldn't be a sign & trade, and his value is reduced because of that (being an expiring). He's averaging 20/6 for the season, and he isn't a surefire all star caliber player. Not trying to downplay how good he is, but I think you're overvaluing him a bit. But we agree that he'll be a great fit for us.

I'm a huge dedmon guy but you dont trade a starting calibur wing for a 3rd center espeically with claxton here too

This trade is a suggestion in case we get rid of Allen in another trade, so Dedmon can be a decent replacement. He's having a terrible year atm, but can bounce back here as a solid stretch 5 with defense. And I don't think Prince is a starting caliber wing on a good team.

we should be getting a first in this deal

Perhaps, but I think Derrick White is the best piece among those players, he's a proper 3&D guard with athleticism.

we cant afford any of those guys. all we have is the tax payer MLE and those guys will all make 10+ million

Some of those guys, perhaps. I already said Ibaka is likely way out of price range, I would expect him to get a deal in that range. But Marc Gasol and Millsap are in the last contract phase of their careers, and will be ages 36 & 35 respectively. If they do get a big deal, it's going to be a 1-2 year deal max. Not to mention that any of the teams that will want them are likely to be capped out contenders like us, so that reduces the competition. I don't see Raps retaining Gasol and Ibaka for big money when they're planning to go after Giannis in 2021. The other guys on that list are all bench caliber bigs.

I think the thinking in those trades are good. i think you underrate what it would take to get Jrue and i think you havent watch Rudy gay since he fell off a cliff

Thanks, but like I mentioned, Jrue & JJ will be expiring contracts in summer, so I think a very good young player on rookie deal (Allen), a youngish wing with upside (Levert), and an average-decent forward who is an above average shooter (Prince) are pretty good return for them. You can add a pick if that's what it takes, but that is a pretty good trade package to start from. As for Rudy Gay, I already acknowledged that he is declining but I don't think he has fallen off a cliff yet. His numbers are still pretty solid and better than any of our PF options.

Prokorov wrote:imagine if we gave levert the 120 million you suggested

Touche', and I'm glad we locked him down for less. You admit that most pundits called it one of the biggest bargains of the summer, so I'm not the only one with egg on my face at this point.

I think Caris still has legit potential, but he's not improving where he can achieve it. He's dangerously close to Evan Turner territory, where his immense playmaking gifts are overshadowed by:

-- poor FT rate and %
-- middling 3PT rate and %
-- enormous TO rate, flat AST:TO ratio
-- porous individual and team defense

There's a reason they called him "Evan Turnover". I can already hear the "Careless LeVert" chants if he doesn't correct course. He's GOT to give us something in at least 2 of these categories, for him to advance to the next level and become playable for long stretches with our starters.

7footMONSTER wrote:

DarkXaero wrote:

7footMONSTER wrote:Lol at these trade offers.

No offense but this entire post screams Billy King / James Dolan.

Well it would be nice to know why you feel that way instead of just driving by, really adding nothing.

Pelicans are gearing up for a playoff push around Zion. Holiday is arguable the best 2-way guard in the league.

New Orleans struggles to sign superstar free agents. Why would they trade Jrue Holiday for our role players?

This isn't for this season, it's suggested for summer (next season). Jrue Holiday will be an expiring contract next season (and a free agent in 2020-21), so they lose him regardless. Pelicans also aren't ready to make playoffs and I'll be highly surprised if they make 8th seed this year. Why do they want our role players? I don't see Levert's potential as a role player, whether he ever gets to his potential is a different question. Allen already is a role player with potential for more. The important thing to note here is that Levert is locked in for the next 3 years, and Allen is still on his rookie deal. That is actually huge for small market teams who have trouble attracting talent in free agency. Jrue isn't even technically an all star, let alone superstar, and a player with less than 2 years left on his contract.

Prokorov wrote:

ecuhus1981 wrote:

DarkXaero wrote:Agreed, those two have been a large part of the problem, and because of their extensions, they'll be making a combined $30 mill/season over next two years. But their salary is valuable in the sense that it can help us absorb either star player contracts or just better players.

This was part of the rationale behind the extensions, that in the then perceived worst-case scenario, they are at least solid trade ballast for matching salary for a 3rd star. However, we didn't count on either of them regressing so harshly, which unfortunately they have.

To most teams, they aren't worth their next-year's salary, because they're making starter money but not producing at even a solid role-player's level. I think they could realize their potential on another team, but the system and roles they are occupying don't shine up their value. Herein lies the problem.

Levert didnt really regress. his numbers are pretty similar to last year. he was always a poor finisher at the rim and below avg shooter with suspect D. His volume and role are down, so he has less big games and hes been hurt

prince also i dont think regressed, he was just forced into a role he shouldnt play. his D was as good or probably better than last year and he is shooting almost 38% from three when Kyrie is in the lineup. he has looked alot better since kyrie came back

You're on one for this take.

By any statistical or eye-test measure, Caris and Taurean have not only flat-lined, they have regressed from their 18-19 production. Arguing any different is either insincere, naive or seriously shining up a turd.

Prokorov wrote:I'm a huge dedmon guy but you dont trade a starting calibur wing for a 3rd center espeically with claxton here too

AHA, GOTCHA!

Small but important point, I'm proud that you are FINALLY willing to admit that Nic's best position in today's NBA is the 5. I'm glad I could help, I wish it didn't take so long for you to come to the good guys' side.

vincecarter4pres wrote:Haven't watched as many games as I would have liked this year, but Allen is the absolute least of out concerns imho and is a main building block of a championship contending team, at least amd especially as the 3rd or 4th best starter next to KD, Kyrie and a possible 3rd stud depending on how trades shake out.

I like some of the specific players you have targeted, but not for the players and assets you have outbound in each separate deal.

If Allen is outgoing, a straight up young stud who forms a big 3 needs to be Brooklyn bound, like a Beal this off-season, or CJ McCollum, Jamaal Murray or KAT now. Even with McCollum I pause with his inclusion.

I understand why you can think that way, and I'm not really saying that Allen is one of our big concerns, although I do think you're overvaluing his potential. I already said that ideally, I would much rather keep him and trade DJ if possible. But aside from the extremely unlikely chance of trading DJ, Allen is arguably our highest valued asset outside of KD/Kyrie. Statistically, he ranks as one of the top 10 best value contracts in the league. So it's really about using him to address bigger needs to improve the team as a whole.

I would have loved to have Beal in the past, but I've cooled off on him a lot this season. Obviously, situation plays a part but Beal really hasn't been that good this season at all. He ranks as arguably the worst defender in the entire league, which is incredible really. Wizards play better without him on the court this season, so considering what it'll take to get him (gutting us of all assets), I'd rather stay away. Likewise with CJ, I think he's a similar player, and not worth what it would take to get him, although I'm more open to a CJ trade than Beal. I don't see Nuggets trading Murray, and 0.00% chance on Wolves trading KAT, who is way above any of the players you listed (or I've listed in my OP).