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It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason

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It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#1 » by ecuhus1981 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:10 am

We are standing at the edge of a very exciting season. I think that the moves that we need to make this offseason could make or break our contending hopes, with other top teams likely to improve. Here is my plan, with regard to role/roster balance, salary cap management and more.

1) decline Garrett Temple's team option - I've gone back and forth on this, since he's a union boss and Ky's friend. But our cap crunch is going to demand that every dollar counts, and I just don't see him locking down a role next year. He knows how to be a 3&D dude, how to slide his feet while guarding and prepare for open shots on the perimeter. His body just can't keep up with his mind anymore. GT carried us for a couple of games, I'm glad we had him this year. But at 34, he's expendable.

2) trade Taurean Prince and the 55th pick for Kyle Anderson - not a sexy move, but a great fit for our needs and a hometown kid. Nash loved Boris Diaw in Phoenix, and SloMo has a similar game. He can be the high-post zone buster with his court vision and can guard 1 thru 5 at an above average level. He comes from the San Antonio tree, and was an elite player in his last season there before languishing in Memphis. He also makes $4mil less than TP, and again, every bit of cap savings helps.

3) trade Spencer Dinwiddie and Jarrett Allen for the #2 pick - two of our cornerstones this season get the boot?! Well, the progressive luxury tax is going to make keeping both of them unrealistic next offseason. The time to recoup value for them is now, and Golden State is looking to move their pick for immediate impact players. We hand the keys to the 2nd unit to Caris, and replace some of Spencer's minutes with a high-ceiling, cost-controlled prospect.

4) sign Serge Ibaka to the taxpayer MLE, Michael Carter-Williams to the BAE, and Andre Roberson to a vet min deal - the FoK connection works in our favor, as does the shallow pool of money to spend on free agents. All 3 are versatile plus-defenders who would complement our potent offense.

5) draft Anthony Edwards at #2, Saddiq Bey at #19 - a raw and rare prospect out of GA, he has the tools to be an elite two-way force under the correct tutelage. Nash, Vaughn and perhaps MDA can instruct him from the sidelines, while Kev and Ky can rein in his erratic tendencies. Bey is a smart, limited player whose outside shooting will complement the bench nicely.

The end result is that we assemble a team loaded with youth and experience, offense and defense, and is not so bloated in payroll that we would need to pawn off a piece later. Tsai is a very rich man, but this is not baseball. The soft luxury tax has harsher penalties than most folks realize, beyond just money, but roster flexibility and options to extend contracts. My plan still leaves us with the highest payroll in the NBA, but avoids the future budget of $180mil, with $120mil or more in taxes.

What's YOUR vision for our future?

Irving, Edwards, Harris, Durant, Ibaka
Williams, Levert, Bey, Anderson, Jordan
Musa, Cabarrot, Roberson, Kurucs, Claxton
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#2 » by ecuhus1981 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:31 am

As a companion to my OP, I offer a financial breakdown before and after my vision.

BEFORE: As currently constituted, we are facing a '20-'21 payroll of $133mil devoted to 10 players. This roster is going to need defenders, so let's assume we accept the team options of Garrett Temple ($5mil) and Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot ($2mil). That's $140mil for 12 players, already over the luxury tax apron, which triggers the repeater tax for future seasons.

Then we need to re-sign Harris. He's not taking a 2nd hometown discount, and the teams with capspace this offseason will attempt to lure him with outlandish offers. I understand that he really wants to stay, but his market price has risen. I used to think we could retain him in between the annual salary figures of Prince ($12mil) and Levert ($16mil), but now I see that as unrealistic. To compare with players of a similar skill set, Joe is looking at a next contract starting between Bogdanovic ($18mil) and Hield ($24mil). Let's say he signs for 3 years, $60mil, a flat $20mil per. All of a sudden, we're at a cool $160mil for 13 players. If you include our 2 draft picks, we have a full roster of 15 at $164mil.

The cap is projected to remain the same as this year, $109mil, with a luxury tax threshold of $132mil. The progressive tax for that amount would be $78mil for a total of $242mil devoted to personnel. The real trouble comes next season...

We have an estimated $149mil dedicated to 12 players (9 previously signed, plus Joe and the 2020 picks). Spencer walks, we can't afford him. Jarrett receives either an extension one way or another, somewhere between Nurkic's '21-'22 salary ($13mil) and Capela's ($17mil). For simplicity, we'll say he signs for 3 years, $45mil, a flat $15mil per. We also have 5 picks in 2021, but let's say we only bring in 2 as rookie, and the other picks we either stash or sell. That's $168mil for the full 15, but since we were over the apron in '21, '22 will incur repeater taxes. Who knows the cap and LTT amounts then, but let's estimate a moderate increase to $115mil and $134mil. So, we're only $34mil above the cap similar to the previous season. But the progressive tax (look it up for a breakdown) means that we would pay $146milmil in penalties, a total of $280mil for personnel.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#3 » by ecuhus1981 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:44 am

AFTER: with the changes I prescribed, we would have a salary of $156mil for 15 players. That's $24mil over the cap, and after $60mil in penalties, a total of $216mil for personnel. In 2022, we'd have no major FA's, and salaries totaling $159mil. The repeater tax penalties are still major ($92mil), but a full $54mil less than the outrageous penalties we will face with our current roster. It is impossible to see us not selling of Caris or someone else, just to avoid such egregious tax penalties.

We are the financial equivalent of the Titanic, and standing pat with our current roster means plowing right into the iceberg. The time to course correct is now.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#4 » by Prokorov » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:19 pm

Befre I reply I just want to say I appreciate your enthusiasm and through you put into all of this. while I may disagree/criticize with your moves I know that you contribute alot and are a great fan.

I think your head is in the right place. but alot of these moves seem NBA 2k-ish to me.

1) Dinwiddie + Allen for the #2 pick seems absurd to me. Value wise, even in a down year, you can probably do better then Allen/Dinwiddie for that pick on the open market. you also probably do better trading that pick for 1 player instead of diluting it with multiple players.

But most importantly with this trade, you are giving up the #2 overall pick for 2 guys who will be free agents at the end of the year. The warriors are cap strapped as is, it will be tough for them to give Dinwiddie Allen extensions or long term deals.

2) Prince/55 for Anderson seems like an ok move in a Vaccuum. but there is no real motivation for the grizzlies to do it. they would be adding 4-6 million in salary for 2 years. 55 is a touch light for taking that money for 2 years. but the real road block is why for memphis. Their are probably better options if they want to take on salary for Anderson. I think Prince/19 would be required. Memphis has no first round pick. #55 doesnt help them but Kyle anderson can probably get them into the 16-25 range from some team.

If you are memphis why take on 6 million in salary to get 55 when you can give up anderson to toronto/boston/ny/LA/OKC/Utah for a pick late in the first round and shed salary instead of add it?

3) Serge Ibaka is not taking a 6-7M deal at 30-31 years old. This is has last chance to make real money in the NBA and he is probably looking at a floor of 4/44 and a ceiling of 4/76. Why take 4/32 when you already have a ring? He can ring chance in 3 or 4 years. I know he played with durant but i dont think that drumps giving up 15-30 million. I do like MCW. i think he is a great fit.

4) I think Bey will go late lotto. i know he is projected 15-20 but he is like the Mitchell of this draft. projected late but great fit for the NBA and everyone loves him. he will end up like 12. #2 pick isnt worth discussing, we arent getting the #2. we dont have the assets to do it. Someone is going to give GSW a NBA rotation player plus take wiggins from them. PEople love Wiseman as well and see him as a potential stud. there will be a ton of competition for #2 and we dont really have much to offer.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#5 » by Prokorov » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:22 pm

Like imagine if the Nets had the #2 pick in this draft right now. We would be talking about trading it for Beal or Holiday or Embiid. not like Will Barton and Mason Plumlee.

I know dinwiddie/Allen is better then that. but if GSW is gonna move #2 its going to be for a guy who really moves the needle. not role guys/fringe starters.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#6 » by Hello Brooklyn » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:36 pm

Why would we trade Dinwiddie/Allen for the #2 pick in this awful draft?

Who exactly is going to help us next season in the playoffs? Lamelo Ball? No thank you.
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It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#7 » by Paradise » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:58 pm

Hello Brooklyn wrote:Why would we trade Dinwiddie/Allen for the #2 pick in this awful draft?

Who exactly is going to help us next season in the playoffs? Lamelo Ball? No thank you.

I’d like to remind everyone Dinwiddie hit the game winner over AD in the last professional sports game with fans against the current champions in LA.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#8 » by Prokorov » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:39 am

Hello Brooklyn wrote:Why would we trade Dinwiddie/Allen for the #2 pick in this awful draft?

Who exactly is going to help us next season in the playoffs? Lamelo Ball? No thank you.


Wiseman could be an all-star in year 1. or be on an all-nba defensive team.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#9 » by ecuhus1981 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:03 am

I think that all of the feedback you've shared is valid, and I appreciate it.

I don't WANT to break up the team. I love our team. Trends and forces out of our control will demand corrective action before long, and we will keep a more talented supporting cast if we choose the direction now, rather than have the direction foisted upon us later.

Most GSW fans with whom I've spoken are OK with Allen/Dinwiddie for the #2 pick. They would love to get a bona fide stud instead, but the market is not there and they don't have salary to match the contracts of most stars. They could include Wiggins in the outgoing salary, but no one will give them a star AND absorb Andrew for only the#2 pick. The reason they can absorb our two players without sending back any active salary to us is that their combined salaries fit in the $17mil Iguodala TPE that's about to expire. I defy you to find a more talented player or combination of immediate impact players that GSW can target, that make less than $17mil and who the other team would be willing to give for this year's #2. You can't. We're it.

For Prince, he actually makes only $2mil more than Kyle. The #55 pick is enough incentive, and Memphis would be better off with Taurean.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#10 » by Prokorov » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:17 am

ecuhus1981 wrote:I think that all of the feedback you've shared is valid, and I appreciate it.

I don't WANT to break up the team. I love our team. Trends and forces out of our control will demand corrective action before long, and we will keep a more talented supporting cast if we choose the direction now, rather than have the direction foisted upon us later.

Most GSW fans with whom I've spoken are OK with Allen/Dinwiddie for the #2 pick. They would love to get a bona fide stud instead, but the market is not there and they don't have salary to match the contracts of most stars. They could include Wiggins in the outgoing salary, but no one will give them a star AND absorb Andrew for only the#2 pick. The reason they can absorb our two players without sending back any active salary to us is that their combined salaries fit in the $17mil Iguodala TPE that's about to expire. I defy you to find a more talented player or combination of immediate impact players that GSW can target, that make less than $17mil and who the other team would be willing to give for this year's #2. You can't. We're it.

For Prince, he actually makes only $2mil more than Kyle. The #55 pick is enough incentive, and Memphis would be better off with Taurean.


Its not just talent, its term. you cant deal #2 for 2 guys who are free agents at years end. especially when 1 is looking to take the money over the situation (Dinwiddie).
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#11 » by Hello Brooklyn » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:02 am

Prokorov wrote:
Hello Brooklyn wrote:Why would we trade Dinwiddie/Allen for the #2 pick in this awful draft?

Who exactly is going to help us next season in the playoffs? Lamelo Ball? No thank you.


Wiseman could be an all-star in year 1. or be on an all-nba defensive team.


Wiseman who hasn't even played more than couple of a games in college in going to be an All Star? Is that a joke?

Not even LeBron James was an All Star his rookie year.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#12 » by ecuhus1981 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:40 am

Prokorov wrote:Its not just talent, its term. you cant deal #2 for 2 guys who are free agents at years end. especially when 1 is looking to take the money over the situation (Dinwiddie).

I get it, and I've offered the same feedback to GSW fans.

Their FO is looking for win now players on short term contracts with their TPE and the #2 pick. I guess their rationale is that they can evaluate after a year whether they want to extend or re-sign. Jarrett is RFA so they would easily keep him, and Spencer would be as affordable for them as Iguodala was, as a super 6th man. They could match all offers with his Bird rights, and with their new arena money, they wouldn't be afraid to match.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#13 » by Packers+NetsWIN » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:37 am

My ideal, realistic off-season doesn't have too many moves. First, it does include the following trade:

Nets receive: Kelly Oubre Jr., Cameron Johnson, and Elie Okobo.

Suns receive: Spencer Dinwiddie, Taurean Prince, Džanan Musa, and Brooklyn's 2nd round pick in 2020 draft (#55 overall). Also willing to throw in a lottery protected 1st round pick in the 2021 draft if necessary to complete the deal.

As much as I don't want to watch Dinwiddie in another uniform next season, unless he experiences an injury, he will decline his player option after this upcoming season and I anticipate he will sign a lucrative contract (at least 20M per year). That is a lot too pay at the point guard position in combination with Irving's salary. It also allows LeVert to be the main ball handler for the second unit, which after watching him operate as the main ball handler in the bubble I am confident this is a role he should thrive in. LeVert is also already locked up for the next 3 years which was a deciding factor. Furthermore, the Nets are able to get out of Prince's contract while finding a younger, better shooting, and cheaper player who is on a rookie scale contract in Cameron Johnson. The late second round pick in a weak draft and the lotto protected first rounder next year is nothing to fret over, just added incentive for the Suns. And Musa, as much as I have been rooting for him since he first was drafted by the Nets, has not shown much development/progress in the chances he has received and ultimately I think it's time to move on. He unfortunately wouldn't be getting much playing time on this ready-to-compete roster anyways. The Suns may find a role for him.

Reason the Nets do this: the Nets get a point guard prospect in Okobo who the Nets were rumored to be interested in the draft 2 years ago. He is a cost controlled, young player with potential at the point guard position to develop between the Nets and the G-League. Cameron Johnson would be great in this offense as he is an elite shooter from his college days and last year with the Suns. And again, he is a young, cost controlled player who showed promise on defense in his first season. Lastly, Kelly Oubre is a talented scorer who can help take some of the relief off of KD and Kyrie. He is also an expiring contract so next off-season, if the Nets decide to keep him they will have his bird rights and he should be less expensive that Dinwiddie. And if they decide against it, they can him walk and clear cap space since the Nets will be operating over the luxury tax.

Reasons the Suns do this: the Suns get the most talented player in this deal in Dinwiddie, who I think would thrive next to Devin Booker as both can play on and off the ball and compliment each other very well with Dinwiddie's passing skills and ability to drive. The Suns are also one of the few teams that can offer the contract that Dinwiddie is likely looking for in free agency next year. Prince offers the Suns a player with potential to be 3&D player if he can return to his shooting percentages from his days in Atlanta. He can play both forwards spots while starting or coming off the bench and his contract only has 2 years on it if they quickly want to move on from him. Maybe a change of scenery does Musa good, if not the Suns are no worse off having him on the end of their to see if they can develop him. Lastly, as mentioned earlier, the 2nd rounder this year and the lotto protected 1st rounder next year are added incentive.

Add this trade with the following off-season moves:
1.) Resign Joe Harris for 13-16M per year
+Management has already made it clear that Joe Harris is their #1 off-season priority
2.) Resign Tyler Johnson use MLE
+Johnson played very well in the bubble and we know Marks admires his game after signing him for the bubble and offering him a large contract four years ago.
3.) Resign Jamal Crawford and Andre Roberson to minimum deals
+Rumors are Nets are interested in resigning Crawford and he was be a good veteran addition to the team. Roberson is obviously known for his defensive skills and has played with Durant before
4.) Decline Garrett Temple's team option
+Temple only shot 32.9% from three in his first season with the Nets. He is also the second oldest player on the squad after Crawford. Is the poor shooting a sign of regression given his age?
5.) Use the 19th pick in the NBA draft on Desmond Bane, G/F, TCU
+Bane seems like a great fit to fill out the roster around ball handlers like Irving, Durant, and LeVert as he is a good defender and shooter. He was a 43.3% three point shooter in his four years of college. Key phrases in his scouting report were "runs the floor well and plays extremely hard", "an intelligent offensive player", and "allowed 0.54 points per one-on-one possession [88th percentile] as he is tough at the point of attack".
https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/desmond-bane#/

Nets 2020-2021 roster:
Kyrie Irving/Caris LeVert/Jamal Crawford
Joe Harris/Tyler Johnson/T. Luwawu-Cabarrot
Kelly Oubre Jr./Desmond Bane/Andre Roberson
Kevin Durant/Cameron Johnson/Rodions Kurucs
DeAndre Jordan/Jarret Allen/Nicolas Claxton
Two way players: Chirs Chiozza was solid in the bubble and Elie Okobo for developmental purposes.

Irving and Durant will carry the starters with Harris's elite shooting spreading the floor, Oubre helping in the scoring department if KD and Irving are injured or resting, and Jordan patrolling the pain. On the second unit, LeVert is surrounded by 3 great shooters in the Johnsons and Bane. And Allen can patrol the pain on the 2nd unit. Lastly, the third unit has a good mix of leadership in Crawford, defense in Roberson, and young prospects in Kurucs, TLC, and Claxton. I think the off-season moves I laid out does a good job of keeping the team competitive while at the same time keeping the luxury tax in mind. Let me know your thoughts.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#14 » by ecuhus1981 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 pm

Packers+NetsWIN wrote:My ideal, realistic off-season doesn't have too many moves...

WOW! I'm really impressed with your plan, nice job!

I have been resistant to Oubre-DInwiddie trades in the past, but I could see us doing it. I think, of the PHX bench PGs, I would want Jerome instead of Okobo. We may have wanted Elie in 2018, but he hasn't shown much since. Ty at least has the size, shooting potential and defense to play alongside Ky. I don't think the Suns would give up Kelly AND Cam, though. Both were undersized 4's for them, and key to their late small-ball surge.

I like the idea of retaining Tyler, and I don't think we'll need the MLE to do it. He balled out in Orlando, but I don't think he's that high on the radar this offseason. I had listed MCW as my BAE, but I wouldn't be mad if we just gave Johnson the bi-annual.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#15 » by DarkXaero » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm

I appreciate your effort OP, but I see too many unrealistic moves there, and way too much of a roster shakeup for a roster that's probably worse than our current roster.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#16 » by Prokorov » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:06 pm

ecuhus1981 wrote:
Prokorov wrote:Its not just talent, its term. you cant deal #2 for 2 guys who are free agents at years end. especially when 1 is looking to take the money over the situation (Dinwiddie).

I get it, and I've offered the same feedback to GSW fans.

Their FO is looking for win now players on short term contracts with their TPE and the #2 pick. I guess their rationale is that they can evaluate after a year whether they want to extend or re-sign. Jarrett is RFA so they would easily keep him, and Spencer would be as affordable for them as Iguodala was, as a super 6th man. They could match all offers with his Bird rights, and with their new arena money, they wouldn't be afraid to match.


there is just no chance they make a deal with #2 that doesnt dump wiggins AND brings in FAs in walk years.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#17 » by Prokorov » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:08 pm

Packers+NetsWIN wrote:My ideal, realistic off-season doesn't have too many moves. First, it does include the following trade:

Nets receive: Kelly Oubre Jr., Cameron Johnson, and Elie Okobo.

Suns receive: Spencer Dinwiddie, Taurean Prince, Džanan Musa, and Brooklyn's 2nd round pick in 2020 draft (#55 overall). Also willing to throw in a lottery protected 1st round pick in the 2021 draft if necessary to complete the deal.



I do not understand this for the suns. They have Rubio on a longterm deal. Oubre is a similar level player to dinwiddie. why are they adding cameron johnson? value and fit are both issues here for the suns
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#18 » by Pablo Escobar » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:33 pm

Is KD even healthy?
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#19 » by Papi_swav » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:03 pm

If GS gifts us their 2nd pick for Din and Allen then I don't see how we say no at all. We can easily draft Wiseman or Edwars, or we can flip that pick for a package with role players and a lower pick like 6-10 and pickup one of those 3 and D wing players. I can't see GS accepting that anyway but I think we would have to accept that trade if it presents itself.
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Re: It Was All a Dream: my vision for this offseason 

Post#20 » by Packers+NetsWIN » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:44 pm

ecuhus1981 wrote:
Packers+NetsWIN wrote:My ideal, realistic off-season doesn't have too many moves...

WOW! I'm really impressed with your plan, nice job!

I have been resistant to Oubre-DInwiddie trades in the past, but I could see us doing it. I think, of the PHX bench PGs, I would want Jerome instead of Okobo. We may have wanted Elie in 2018, but he hasn't shown much since. Ty at least has the size, shooting potential and defense to play alongside Ky. I don't think the Suns would give up Kelly AND Cam, though. Both were undersized 4's for them, and key to their late small-ball surge.

I like the idea of retaining Tyler, and I don't think we'll need the MLE to do it. He balled out in Orlando, but I don't think he's that high on the this offseason. I had listed MCW as my BAE, but I wouldn't be mad if we just gave Johnson the bi-annual.


Thank you! I was just trying to be as realistic as possible in my approach and I do realize I may have been a tad conservative with some approaches. As you correctly mentioned, it probably won't cost the MLE to keep Johnson in addition to the Nets probably no longer being interested in Okobo now that the coaching staff has changed and Kyrie is on board Also, if the Nets don't keep Johnson then I agree with you that MCW would be a strong possibility.

And again, I do agree with you it'll be tough to pry away Obrue and Johnson in the same deal. But after including Prince in the deal to their current stable of forwards and the strong possibility that the Suns take a small forward or power forward at pick #10). The small forward spot would be solid with bridges and prince, while the power forward has depth with saric, diallo, kaminsky, and whoever they draft.

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