ImageImageImageImageImage

GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30

Moderators: NyCeEvO, Rich Rane

Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#561 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:43 am

enetric wrote:Now, to what DID irk me. When Harden is not on the floor, this team relies so heavily on ISO plays by the two stars and worse...both are content to look for mid range 2's with zero chance of contact. Low post basketball is dead, so if you arent going to look to maximize your 3 point opportunities (beyond the arc or an and one inside) and force the D to spread the floor off good ball movement, more often than not you are relying on one thing. Make more shots than they do lol. And for the first 2 games, Bucks couldn't hit squat from the outside or make free throws. So we didn't have to pay the price for some of our decisions. Yes, we were much better in game 2 than 1...but it was still a case of being hot, and the other team missing plenty of easy looks. Tonight we were cold, and did not execute. I think we played better D tonight after the first quarter, KD and Kyrie each had a little stretch of making shots and we got back in. We know "the others" for any NBA team are inconsistent on the road and you just hope for one guy to step up. That was Brown tonight. At best credit effort on D for the rest of the others.


I thought we missed an opportunity to play Lopez off the floor. we waited 2+ quarters to go heavy durant pick and rolls involving lopez. Iso mid range is one thing, but KD off a screen with airspace and lopez dropping is money in the bank. he missed a couple, hit a couple, and we went away from it.

An adjustment i'd like to see would be to have some claxton/blake together. this makes blake the 4 from the bucks perspective, as they wont put lopez on him if he is parked in the corner with claxton in the game. but then you have a Claxton pick/roll with more size and a roll threat vs. brown floaters. not saying its better, but a few lob dunks could change things. that would make you rely on DJ though and they seem not to want him to play.

Green playing and being that roll guy helps... and he can also space the floor. but it scares me that they will use green 20 minutes at center and bury claxton, who while struggling offensively has been outstanding on D.

It is almost inevitable they hit threes at a avg to good rate the rest of the way. they had too many good shooters miss good shots and after a win they are feeling good.
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#562 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:45 am

So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?
User avatar
JoseRizal
General Manager
Posts: 7,915
And1: 2,233
Joined: Oct 21, 2010
 

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#563 » by JoseRizal » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:50 am

Prokorov wrote:
JoseRizal wrote:I would never understand why the last 3 shots were not taken by either KD or Kyrie...


Because Nash didnt force a situation that made that likely....

in fact, he almost guaranteed it wouldnt happen by having brown out there screening for the ball handler.


Bad execution overall. This is one of the disadvantages of not having enough games played together,
Jay555
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,692
And1: 859
Joined: May 30, 2021
   

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#564 » by Jay555 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:51 am

Will Harden be back for G4?
DarkXaero
RealGM
Posts: 14,020
And1: 5,572
Joined: Mar 25, 2011
   

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#565 » by DarkXaero » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:54 am

enetric wrote:So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?
In the regular season, Joe excels as a 3pt shooter and he does a great job of making defenses pay by driving to the basket, and finishing strong. In the playoffs, his driving game has been a non-factor, defenses have taken it away. He was never a good mid range shooter, at least relative to his 3pt shooting. That being said, you still don't expect him to that dreadful on wide open set mid range jumpshots, yet he was.

In the Boston series, there was a game or two where Joe did a great job attacking off the dribble and simply creating for his teammates. All of that has been non-existent there. Unfortunately, it's not the first time we've seen Joe play timid in high pressure games. We remember the Philly series back in 2019 when Joe completely mentally crumbled under pressure and shot 19% from 3. So none of this really surprises me, sadly.
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#566 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:55 am

Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:Now, to what DID irk me. When Harden is not on the floor, this team relies so heavily on ISO plays by the two stars and worse...both are content to look for mid range 2's with zero chance of contact. Low post basketball is dead, so if you arent going to look to maximize your 3 point opportunities (beyond the arc or an and one inside) and force the D to spread the floor off good ball movement, more often than not you are relying on one thing. Make more shots than they do lol. And for the first 2 games, Bucks couldn't hit squat from the outside or make free throws. So we didn't have to pay the price for some of our decisions. Yes, we were much better in game 2 than 1...but it was still a case of being hot, and the other team missing plenty of easy looks. Tonight we were cold, and did not execute. I think we played better D tonight after the first quarter, KD and Kyrie each had a little stretch of making shots and we got back in. We know "the others" for any NBA team are inconsistent on the road and you just hope for one guy to step up. That was Brown tonight. At best credit effort on D for the rest of the others.


I thought we missed an opportunity to play Lopez off the floor. we waited 2+ quarters to go heavy durant pick and rolls involving lopez. Iso mid range is one thing, but KD off a screen with airspace and lopez dropping is money in the bank. he missed a couple, hit a couple, and we went away from it.

An adjustment i'd like to see would be to have some claxton/blake together. this makes blake the 4 from the bucks perspective, as they wont put lopez on him if he is parked in the corner with claxton in the game. but then you have a Claxton pick/roll with more size and a roll threat vs. brown floaters. not saying its better, but a few lob dunks could change things. that would make you rely on DJ though and they seem not to want him to play.

Green playing and being that roll guy helps... and he can also space the floor. but it scares me that they will use green 20 minutes at center and bury claxton, who while struggling offensively has been outstanding on D.

It is almost inevitable they hit threes at a avg to good rate the rest of the way. they had too many good shooters miss good shots and after a win they are feeling good.


I hear you on the missed opportunities, I'm just pointing out if you rely on mid range contested double teamed shots off screen rolls...its make or miss with 3 resting defenders over and over. Gotta get some contact! I like your idea about both bigs in terms of reacting to them. And yes, the big issue is Nash is set on sticking with his game plan, no DJ and no adjustments in game!

But one other issue. Because of the heavy ISO pull ups of screen rolls...KD and Kyrie rarely seem to find those easy Claxton Blake cuts on the slide after the screen. Harden? All day long! Same with DJ with Harden.

I feel KD, and Kyrie playing this way...zero plays called, just trying to force shots does it matter? Maybe with Green who give you more of an outside in threat but they seem to minimize Claxton's offensive contributions for easy buckets.
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#567 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:56 am

enetric wrote:So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?


Hasn't been a topic of discussion. Probably because the prior 2 seasons, he was excellent attack closeouts and finishing at the rim. We didn't see that 14-18 foot pullup as much. He hits just enough of them not to dissuade him from taken them... 42% from 16-22 feet... but that accounts for less then 5% of his total attemps, so easy to have a short memory when you take so few. thats less then 1 every 2 games.

from 10-16 feet, he shoots 54%... but that floater distance he is bad... 42% from there also.

81% of his shots are threes or within 3 feet. he is elite on threes and above avg within 3 feet (in prior years he was top 3 in the league finsihing on drives). So you arent wrong, take the 3 or the layup. pass up those in between jumpers, even if you hit the ones from the FT range.

but again, so low a volume and he has been so good overall for a team with bigger issues for anyone to really nitpick it.

I also dont blame him much for tonight. i expect him and shamet to shoot 30% or worse on the road all playoffs. When your role guys struggle on the road, you need to adjust. In a game of bricks with no scoring, give Alize some run for some energy for a stint. play your shooters who defend better. go really small or really big.

regular season is long enough and each games means jack individually where "his shots just weren't falling" is ok. in the playoffs when a guy is 1-7 after 3 quarters, figure something else out. if its KD/Kyrie yeah your stars are likely gonna eventually hit shots. role guys probably not.
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#568 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:58 am

JoseRizal wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
JoseRizal wrote:I would never understand why the last 3 shots were not taken by either KD or Kyrie...


Because Nash didnt force a situation that made that likely....

in fact, he almost guaranteed it wouldnt happen by having brown out there screening for the ball handler.


Bad execution overall. This is one of the disadvantages of not having enough games played together,


I dont think thats true....

If Kyrie has the ball, and Brown screens for him, its probably a 90% or better chance the bucks dont switch that. And there is probably a 60/40 chance he ends up with the ball as a roll man. thats not poor execution... thats either accepting the risk Brown may be forced to shoot a floater and living with that cause he can make it, or just not considering the likelyhood they force the ball his way when you allow him to be part of the action screen on-ball.
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#569 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:58 am

Jay555 wrote:Will Harden be back for G4?


We likely wont know until gameday.
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#570 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:01 am

DarkXaero wrote:
enetric wrote:So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?
In the regular season, Joe excels as a 3pt shooter and he does a great job of making defenses pay by driving to the basket, and finishing strong. In the playoffs, his driving game has been a non-factor, defenses have taken it away. He was never a good mid range shooter, at least relative to his 3pt shooting. That being said, you still don't expect him to that dreadful on wide open set mid range jumpshots, yet he was.

In the Boston series, there was a game or two where Joe did a great job attacking off the dribble and simply creating for his teammates. All of that has been non-existent there. Unfortunately, it's not the first time we've seen Joe play timid in high pressure games. We remember the Philly series back in 2019 when Joe completely mentally crumbled under pressure and shot 19% from 3. So none of this really surprises me, sadly.


But I will say, even regular season....he gives up too many good 3 point looks. I'm all for making a good pass over taking a bad shot. Something Kyrie should have to write 500 times on the blackboard lol. But Joe will OFTEN make a useless pass or drive over taking a GOOD look! Regular season, or playoffs. I love him...but I find it infuriating. No one has missed this many lay ups since Charles Oakley. But he wasn't the highest 3pt% guy in the world. If you are that inefficient when you drive...then maybe do it less. Trust the first look and freaking shoot the 3!
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#571 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:05 am

Prokorov wrote:
JoseRizal wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Because Nash didnt force a situation that made that likely....

in fact, he almost guaranteed it wouldnt happen by having brown out there screening for the ball handler.


Bad execution overall. This is one of the disadvantages of not having enough games played together,


I dont think thats true....

If Kyrie has the ball, and Brown screens for him, its probably a 90% or better chance the bucks dont switch that. And there is probably a 60/40 chance he ends up with the ball as a roll man. thats not poor execution... thats either accepting the risk Brown may be forced to shoot a floater and living with that cause he can make it, or just not considering the likelyhood they force the ball his way when you allow him to be part of the action screen on-ball.


They were trying to in bound to KD. Bucks read it right on the switch. Brown was open and fumbled it. Why KD went all the way to the far corner and stayed out there is baffling to me. I thought he should have rotated back up, or made the cut across the paint after Kyrie passes Brown the ball.
DarkXaero
RealGM
Posts: 14,020
And1: 5,572
Joined: Mar 25, 2011
   

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#572 » by DarkXaero » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:06 am

enetric wrote:
DarkXaero wrote:
enetric wrote:So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?
In the regular season, Joe excels as a 3pt shooter and he does a great job of making defenses pay by driving to the basket, and finishing strong. In the playoffs, his driving game has been a non-factor, defenses have taken it away. He was never a good mid range shooter, at least relative to his 3pt shooting. That being said, you still don't expect him to that dreadful on wide open set mid range jumpshots, yet he was.

In the Boston series, there was a game or two where Joe did a great job attacking off the dribble and simply creating for his teammates. All of that has been non-existent there. Unfortunately, it's not the first time we've seen Joe play timid in high pressure games. We remember the Philly series back in 2019 when Joe completely mentally crumbled under pressure and shot 19% from 3. So none of this really surprises me, sadly.


But I will say, even regular season....he gives up too many good 3 point looks. I'm all for making a good pass over taking a bad shot. Something Kyrie should have to write 500 times on the blackboard lol. But Joe will OFTEN make a useless pass or drive over taking a GOOD look! Regular season, or playoffs. I love him...but I find it infuriating. No one has missed this many lay ups since Charles Oakley. But he wasn't the highest 3pt% guy in the world. If you are that inefficient when you drive...then maybe do it less. Trust the first look and freaking shoot the 3!
Joe has never been an aggressive 3pt shooter though, and if that is what you're saying, then I agree with you there. But I'm not too worked up over that, because Joe typically shoots an incredibly high % off his catch & shoot/open 3s. So I don't mind Joe not being that aggressive looking for his 3 pt shot, it's not his comfort zone as a player.

The problem is that you can't regress as a shooter when you're presented wide open looks in a high pressure playoffs game. Joe isn't some young player, he's a veteran on a ~$19 mill/yr contract now. And I don't think it's hyperbole at all that we lost the game tonight solely due to Joe's dreadful performance where he missed multiple wide open looks, including one in the final minute of the game. And in addition, he played the worst defense I've seen on Jrue Holiday, on what turned out to be the game winner. It was disgustingly pathetic defense.
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#573 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:09 am

Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?


Hasn't been a topic of discussion. Probably because the prior 2 seasons, he was excellent attack closeouts and finishing at the rim. We didn't see that 14-18 foot pullup as much. He hits just enough of them not to dissuade him from taken them... 42% from 16-22 feet... but that accounts for less then 5% of his total attemps, so easy to have a short memory when you take so few. thats less then 1 every 2 games.

from 10-16 feet, he shoots 54%... but that floater distance he is bad... 42% from there also.

81% of his shots are threes or within 3 feet. he is elite on threes and above avg within 3 feet (in prior years he was top 3 in the league finsihing on drives). So you arent wrong, take the 3 or the layup. pass up those in between jumpers, even if you hit the ones from the FT range.

but again, so low a volume and he has been so good overall for a team with bigger issues for anyone to really nitpick it.

I also dont blame him much for tonight. i expect him and shamet to shoot 30% or worse on the road all playoffs. When your role guys struggle on the road, you need to adjust. In a game of bricks with no scoring, give Alize some run for some energy for a stint. play your shooters who defend better. go really small or really big.

regular season is long enough and each games means jack individually where "his shots just weren't falling" is ok. in the playoffs when a guy is 1-7 after 3 quarters, figure something else out. if its KD/Kyrie yeah your stars are likely gonna eventually hit shots. role guys probably not.

What's his percentage on layups this year? I feel like he constantly muffs the most absurd layups. Sometimes not even contested he clangs it.
andrewww
General Manager
Posts: 7,989
And1: 2,684
Joined: Jul 26, 2006

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#574 » by andrewww » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:09 am

Whenever Joe passed up a split second daylight from 3, he would often just dribble into traffic only to get stuffed by Lopez at the rim and then ignite a fast break the other way.

Nets were done in by poor shot making in the first quarter, then tired legs and poor decisions in the last two minutes.

Nash could stand to make better in game adjustments. This was a game where Harden’s presence would have kept everyone fresher and likely made it a comfortable win. A frustrating end, but the Bucks really dont have many more counters to throw at the Nets. It just means this series will drag on for a bit longer than it should have.
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#575 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:10 am

enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
JoseRizal wrote:
Bad execution overall. This is one of the disadvantages of not having enough games played together,


I dont think thats true....

If Kyrie has the ball, and Brown screens for him, its probably a 90% or better chance the bucks dont switch that. And there is probably a 60/40 chance he ends up with the ball as a roll man. thats not poor execution... thats either accepting the risk Brown may be forced to shoot a floater and living with that cause he can make it, or just not considering the likelyhood they force the ball his way when you allow him to be part of the action screen on-ball.


They were trying to in bound to KD. Bucks read it right on the switch. Brown was open and fumbled it. Why KD went all the way to the far corner and stayed out there is baffling to me. I thought he should have rotated back up, or made the cut across the paint after Kyrie passes Brown the ball.


I was referring to the prior play, the Irving/Brown pick and roll. If Brown is in the lineup, screening for the ball you have either accepted you are ok with a brown 3-5 foot floater or completely disregarded/didnt realize there was a high probability he would get the ball in that spot.

I blame the last play less on coaching. Broken play, chaos, all things considered we were lucky to even get a shot at the rim. My criticism on that play is why is he even in the game. your not ahead this time, your down by 1. your coming out of a timeout. why arent you going with an all offensive lineup. even if you dont want to spread it and go 5 out, you can still have blake screen...

and then you also have 1 timeout... when you see a broken play and chaos, call it.
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#576 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:13 am

enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:So I realize its easy to lay into Joe Harris for a 1-11 road game. But I need to vent about something that has driven me nuts about him all season and since I havent been here in a while i wanted to know if you guys have discussed this. So here goes.

Has there ever been a 3 point specialist in the history of the game who was so awful at shooting everything else lol? I find it maddening how many 3 point looks he DOESN'T take so he can pump fake, make a meaningless pass to someone else who is not more open than he was a moment earlier...or put the ball on the floor to drive and miss a freaking layup! Or, get the open pass for a catch and shoot deep 2...nothing! I mean, if all you can do is be Joey Buckets? THEN BE JOEY BUCKETS! Drive less, and be ready to catch and shoot from deep more. Just take the damn shot! Ok...rant over. Anyone else made that rant this season...or have all of you lol?


Hasn't been a topic of discussion. Probably because the prior 2 seasons, he was excellent attack closeouts and finishing at the rim. We didn't see that 14-18 foot pullup as much. He hits just enough of them not to dissuade him from taken them... 42% from 16-22 feet... but that accounts for less then 5% of his total attemps, so easy to have a short memory when you take so few. thats less then 1 every 2 games.

from 10-16 feet, he shoots 54%... but that floater distance he is bad... 42% from there also.

81% of his shots are threes or within 3 feet. he is elite on threes and above avg within 3 feet (in prior years he was top 3 in the league finsihing on drives). So you arent wrong, take the 3 or the layup. pass up those in between jumpers, even if you hit the ones from the FT range.

but again, so low a volume and he has been so good overall for a team with bigger issues for anyone to really nitpick it.

I also dont blame him much for tonight. i expect him and shamet to shoot 30% or worse on the road all playoffs. When your role guys struggle on the road, you need to adjust. In a game of bricks with no scoring, give Alize some run for some energy for a stint. play your shooters who defend better. go really small or really big.

regular season is long enough and each games means jack individually where "his shots just weren't falling" is ok. in the playoffs when a guy is 1-7 after 3 quarters, figure something else out. if its KD/Kyrie yeah your stars are likely gonna eventually hit shots. role guys probably not.

What's his percentage on layups this year? I feel like he constantly muffs the most absurd layups. Sometimes not even contested he clangs it.


66.1%. which is above average for a non center/dunk only player. and in the top 1% for 3 & D/shooting specialists.
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#577 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:19 am

DarkXaero wrote:
enetric wrote:
DarkXaero wrote:In the regular season, Joe excels as a 3pt shooter and he does a great job of making defenses pay by driving to the basket, and finishing strong. In the playoffs, his driving game has been a non-factor, defenses have taken it away. He was never a good mid range shooter, at least relative to his 3pt shooting. That being said, you still don't expect him to that dreadful on wide open set mid range jumpshots, yet he was.

In the Boston series, there was a game or two where Joe did a great job attacking off the dribble and simply creating for his teammates. All of that has been non-existent there. Unfortunately, it's not the first time we've seen Joe play timid in high pressure games. We remember the Philly series back in 2019 when Joe completely mentally crumbled under pressure and shot 19% from 3. So none of this really surprises me, sadly.


But I will say, even regular season....he gives up too many good 3 point looks. I'm all for making a good pass over taking a bad shot. Something Kyrie should have to write 500 times on the blackboard lol. But Joe will OFTEN make a useless pass or drive over taking a GOOD look! Regular season, or playoffs. I love him...but I find it infuriating. No one has missed this many lay ups since Charles Oakley. But he wasn't the highest 3pt% guy in the world. If you are that inefficient when you drive...then maybe do it less. Trust the first look and freaking shoot the 3!
Joe has never been an aggressive 3pt shooter though, and if that is what you're saying, then I agree with you there. But I'm not too worked up over that, because Joe typically shoots an incredibly high % off his catch & shoot/open 3s. So I don't mind Joe not being that aggressive looking for his 3 pt shot, it's not his comfort zone as a player.

The problem is that you can't regress as a shooter when you're presented wide open looks in a high pressure playoffs game. Joe isn't some young player, he's a veteran on a ~$19 mill/yr contract now. And I don't think it's hyperbole at all that we lost the game tonight solely due to Joe's dreadful performance where he missed multiple wide open looks, including one in the final minute of the game. And in addition, he played the worst defense I've seen on Jrue Holiday, on what turned out to be the game winner. It was disgustingly pathetic defense.

I'm not looking for him to suddenly force shots. I'm saying, he actually has catch and shoot 3 point looks he will pump fake his way out of and make a worse decision. He misses a pair of 3's off good looks, I don't want him second guessing the next 2 times and passing to someone standing next to him not even looking for the shot. That's like a sniper handing his rifle to someone else lol. Don't start driving off a pump fake. Make them guard you out there. Take 2 more. Not mid range, not drives...not a pass to lesser shooter like it's a hot potato. Shoot the open 3 man! Make or miss. They give you space...do your thing.

Tonight he over thought it and never found his rythm so yeah, not the best night to highlight my frustration. But he was 0-4 from 2.
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#578 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:21 am

Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
Hasn't been a topic of discussion. Probably because the prior 2 seasons, he was excellent attack closeouts and finishing at the rim. We didn't see that 14-18 foot pullup as much. He hits just enough of them not to dissuade him from taken them... 42% from 16-22 feet... but that accounts for less then 5% of his total attemps, so easy to have a short memory when you take so few. thats less then 1 every 2 games.

from 10-16 feet, he shoots 54%... but that floater distance he is bad... 42% from there also.

81% of his shots are threes or within 3 feet. he is elite on threes and above avg within 3 feet (in prior years he was top 3 in the league finsihing on drives). So you arent wrong, take the 3 or the layup. pass up those in between jumpers, even if you hit the ones from the FT range.

but again, so low a volume and he has been so good overall for a team with bigger issues for anyone to really nitpick it.

I also dont blame him much for tonight. i expect him and shamet to shoot 30% or worse on the road all playoffs. When your role guys struggle on the road, you need to adjust. In a game of bricks with no scoring, give Alize some run for some energy for a stint. play your shooters who defend better. go really small or really big.

regular season is long enough and each games means jack individually where "his shots just weren't falling" is ok. in the playoffs when a guy is 1-7 after 3 quarters, figure something else out. if its KD/Kyrie yeah your stars are likely gonna eventually hit shots. role guys probably not.

What's his percentage on layups this year? I feel like he constantly muffs the most absurd layups. Sometimes not even contested he clangs it.


66.1%. which is above average for a non center/dunk only player. and in the top 1% for 3 & D/shooting specialists.

Get out of here lol. no way he made 66% of layups. Are you serious? Link! Lol....
Prokorov
RealGM
Posts: 43,027
And1: 14,676
Joined: Dec 06, 2013

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#579 » by Prokorov » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:23 am

enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:What's his percentage on layups this year? I feel like he constantly muffs the most absurd layups. Sometimes not even contested he clangs it.


66.1%. which is above average for a non center/dunk only player. and in the top 1% for 3 & D/shooting specialists.

Get out of here lol. no way he made 66% of layups. Are you serious? Link! Lol....


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/harrijo01.html
Image
User avatar
enetric
RealGM
Posts: 25,484
And1: 169
Joined: May 24, 2001

Re: GT: Nets @ Bucks Playoffs 2ND Round Game 3 Thursday 7:30 

Post#580 » by enetric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:27 am

Prokorov wrote:
enetric wrote:
Prokorov wrote:
I dont think thats true....

If Kyrie has the ball, and Brown screens for him, its probably a 90% or better chance the bucks dont switch that. And there is probably a 60/40 chance he ends up with the ball as a roll man. thats not poor execution... thats either accepting the risk Brown may be forced to shoot a floater and living with that cause he can make it, or just not considering the likelyhood they force the ball his way when you allow him to be part of the action screen on-ball.


They were trying to in bound to KD. Bucks read it right on the switch. Brown was open and fumbled it. Why KD went all the way to the far corner and stayed out there is baffling to me. I thought he should have rotated back up, or made the cut across the paint after Kyrie passes Brown the ball.


I was referring to the prior play, the Irving/Brown pick and roll. If Brown is in the lineup, screening for the ball you have either accepted you are ok with a brown 3-5 foot floater or completely disregarded/didnt realize there was a high probability he would get the ball in that spot.

I blame the last play less on coaching. Broken play, chaos, all things considered we were lucky to even get a shot at the rim. My criticism on that play is why is he even in the game. your not ahead this time, your down by 1. your coming out of a timeout. why arent you going with an all offensive lineup. even if you dont want to spread it and go 5 out, you can still have blake screen...

and then you also have 1 timeout... when you see a broken play and chaos, call it.


I have no problem with Kyrie giv9ng him that shot. That's his shot. Its that little floater off the catch inside. It was the right play. Fine with it. What I had an issue with ironically was his bad D the other way on Holiday! Go watch that again...ugh. Harris doesn't get in front of him and gives him the outside and Brown gets frozen on the spin move. That to me was worse than the missed shot.

Return to Brooklyn Nets