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If, and I mean IF, we move on from KAI, we should do so respectfully, for him and for us. Without a 3rd bona fide All-Star, I think that our emphasis should be on creating the most cohesive, complementary starting 5 we can. IMO, that means upgrading defense, downgrading usage.

Here is a deal I've been tweaking this evening. I think I balanced the value exchange fairly for all sides with incoming picks for Brooklyn. Please let me know your thoughts:

https://fanspo.com/nba/s/nets/trades/qugQ1boMCEK5Q6/big-shake-up-brk-gsw-tor

BRK trades Irving/Harris/Claxton for Van Vleet/Anunoby/Boucher/22GSW1st/23TOR2nd/25CHA2nd
The Nets trade starpower for two-way role players while trimming payroll and restocking future picks.
Van Vleet, Harden, Anunoby, Durant, Griffin
Mills, Brown, Millsap, Boucher, Aldridge


GSW trades Wiggins/Wiseman/22GSW1st/25CHA2nd for Siakam/Harris/Claxton
The Warriors go all-in to contend.
Curry, Harris, Siakam, Green, Looney
Poole, Lee, Porter, Bjelica, Claxton



TOR trades Siakam/Van Vleet/Anunoby/23TOR2nd for Irving/Wiggins/Wiseman
The Raptors revamp with an electric #1 option, an athletic swingman and an elite bigman prospect.
Irving, Trent, Wiggins, Barnes, Wiseman
Flynn, Dragic, Mychailiuk, Achiuwa, Birch

ecuhus1981 wrote:If, and I mean IF, we move on from KAI, we should do so respectfully, for him and for us. Without a 3rd bona fide All-Star, I think that our emphasis should be on creating the most cohesive, complementary starting 5 we can. IMO, that means upgrading defense, downgrading usage.

Here is a deal I've been tweaking this evening. I think I balanced the value exchange fairly for all sides with incoming picks for Brooklyn. Please let me know your thoughts:

https://fanspo.com/nba/s/nets/trades/qugQ1boMCEK5Q6/big-shake-up-brk-gsw-tor

BRK trades Irving/Harris/Claxton for Van Vleet/Anunoby/Boucher/22GSW1st/23TOR2nd/25CHA2nd
The Nets trade starpower for two-way role players while trimming payroll and restocking future picks.
Van Vleet, Harden, Anunoby, Durant, Griffin
Mills, Brown, Millsap, Boucher, Aldridge


GSW trades Wiggins/Wiseman/22GSW1st/25CHA2nd for Siakam/Harris/Claxton
The Warriors go all-in to contend.
Curry, Harris, Siakam, Green, Looney
Poole, Lee, Porter, Bjelica, Claxton



TOR trades Siakam/Van Vleet/Anunoby/23TOR2nd for Irving/Wiggins/Wiseman
The Raptors revamp with an electric #1 option, an athletic swingman and an elite bigman prospect.
Irving, Trent, Wiggins, Barnes, Wiseman
Flynn, Dragic, Mychailiuk, Achiuwa, Birch

I don't think we are receiving FVV, OG, and picks for Kyrie and co. We may have a chance before the latest shenanigans but that's not realistic now. Masai is not trading his whole team for Irving and Wiseman.

ecuhus1981 wrote:If, and I mean IF, we move on from KAI, we should do so respectfully, for him and for us. Without a 3rd bona fide All-Star, I think that our emphasis should be on creating the most cohesive, complementary starting 5 we can. IMO, that means upgrading defense, downgrading usage.

Here is a deal I've been tweaking this evening. I think I balanced the value exchange fairly for all sides with incoming picks for Brooklyn. Please let me know your thoughts:

https://fanspo.com/nba/s/nets/trades/qugQ1boMCEK5Q6/big-shake-up-brk-gsw-tor

BRK trades Irving/Harris/Claxton for Van Vleet/Anunoby/Boucher/22GSW1st/23TOR2nd/25CHA2nd
The Nets trade starpower for two-way role players while trimming payroll and restocking future picks.
Van Vleet, Harden, Anunoby, Durant, Griffin
Mills, Brown, Millsap, Boucher, Aldridge


GSW trades Wiggins/Wiseman/22GSW1st/25CHA2nd for Siakam/Harris/Claxton
The Warriors go all-in to contend.
Curry, Harris, Siakam, Green, Looney
Poole, Lee, Porter, Bjelica, Claxton



TOR trades Siakam/Van Vleet/Anunoby/23TOR2nd for Irving/Wiggins/Wiseman
The Raptors revamp with an electric #1 option, an athletic swingman and an elite bigman prospect.
Irving, Trent, Wiggins, Barnes, Wiseman
Flynn, Dragic, Mychailiuk, Achiuwa, Birch

Hard pass.

id need 4 picks + 3 pick swaps from each team plus OG and Claxton needs to be removed.

Lol Nope.

I don’t know why it’s hard to comprehend that he’s not going anywhere, if we are in extension talks and Kyrie confirmed he has an offer…

I like the idea and the creativity, but the inclusion of Harris & Clax is a killer for me. The trade also kind of values Kyrie at a bottomed-out value point, which... may or may not be the case, going forward. We'll see.

I also like the idea of reloading for the future, but this doesn't quite seem like the right time, even as forward-looking as the picks are. This recent Nets draft might have just changed me mind on that.

Also, as PO'd as I've been about Kyrie's anti-vax nonsense, it kinda hit me the other day that the team will likely be perfectly fine if dude only plays away games. Because our talent is arguably better than last year across almost all positions, including at guard. Not to mention, the extra reps to other players should only be beneficial.

That said, by the playoffs, hopefully more rational heads prevail and Kyrie is finally persuaded to get the damn vaccine course. So this could all work out swimmingly, at least for this season.

That said again-- I get kind of an ominous feeling about the Nets handing Kyrie a max extension at this point. Not just that he keeps finding non-injury related ways to miss stretches of games, but that he's pretty slightly-built, and has a weird penchant for hanging around the baseline, too often banging with big men. Allen Iverson he ain't...

Paradise wrote:Lol Nope.

I don’t know why it’s hard to comprehend that he’s not going anywhere, if we are in extension talks and Kyrie confirmed he has an offer…

It's not just about "comprehension," Holmesworth, it's also about an overall POV that the team is arguably better off without Kyrie's problems, endless drama, and logistical shortcomings.

Because given a healthy KD & Beard (granted, health can never be assumed), I'm not even sure the team needs an undersized, ball-dominant SG / combo-guard with terrible defense... even assuming he managed to stay healthy and didn't miss bunches of games for 'X or Y reason.'

gigantes wrote:

Paradise wrote:Lol Nope.

I don’t know why it’s hard to comprehend that he’s not going anywhere, if we are in extension talks and Kyrie confirmed he has an offer…

It's not just about "comprehension," Holmesworth, it's also about an overall POV that the team is arguably better off without Kyrie's problems, endless drama, and logistical shortcomings.

Because given a healthy KD & Beard (granted, health can never be assumed), I'm not even sure the team needs an undersized, ball-dominant SG / combo-guard with terrible defense... even assuming he managed to stay healthy and didn't miss bunches of games for 'X or Y reason.'

Kyrie isnt a terrible defender. he is a solid, defender. he struggles defending the post on switches or vs. bigger guards. he was outstanding defensively in the playoffs.

Of course we need him. he is 50/40/90 27 ppg scorer who is super clutch and cant be defender by anyone. He also was elite off ball last season. the nets go from overwhelming favorites to "in the mix" of 2-4 contenders without kyrie. unless you are dealing him for kahwi or some top 7 guy, you get much worse without him

Prokorov wrote:

gigantes wrote:

Paradise wrote:Lol Nope.

I don’t know why it’s hard to comprehend that he’s not going anywhere, if we are in extension talks and Kyrie confirmed he has an offer…

It's not just about "comprehension," Holmesworth, it's also about an overall POV that the team is arguably better off without Kyrie's problems, endless drama, and logistical shortcomings.

Because given a healthy KD & Beard (granted, health can never be assumed), I'm not even sure the team needs an undersized, ball-dominant SG / combo-guard with terrible defense... even assuming he managed to stay healthy and didn't miss bunches of games for 'X or Y reason.'

Kyrie isnt a terrible defender. he is a solid, defender. he struggles defending the post on switches or vs. bigger guards. he was outstanding defensively in the playoffs.

Of course we need him. he is 50/40/90 27 ppg scorer who is super clutch and cant be defender by anyone. He also was elite off ball last season. the nets go from overwhelming favorites to "in the mix" of 2-4 contenders without kyrie. unless you are dealing him for kahwi or some top 7 guy, you get much worse without him

Yeah, I was a little cynical there. He's definitely a big plus, although not as much of one as he was at the start of last season IMO. If I had a point there, it's that the depth situation has changed such that he's not needed as much.

Either way, I really am wondering if a healthy version of this team could indeed win a trophy without him playing at all. I'm leaning towards "yes" at the moment. Guess we'll see.

gigantes wrote:

Prokorov wrote:

gigantes wrote:It's not just about "comprehension," Holmesworth, it's also about an overall POV that the team is arguably better off without Kyrie's problems, endless drama, and logistical shortcomings.

Because given a healthy KD & Beard (granted, health can never be assumed), I'm not even sure the team needs an undersized, ball-dominant SG / combo-guard with terrible defense... even assuming he managed to stay healthy and didn't miss bunches of games for 'X or Y reason.'

Kyrie isnt a terrible defender. he is a solid, defender. he struggles defending the post on switches or vs. bigger guards. he was outstanding defensively in the playoffs.

Of course we need him. he is 50/40/90 27 ppg scorer who is super clutch and cant be defender by anyone. He also was elite off ball last season. the nets go from overwhelming favorites to "in the mix" of 2-4 contenders without kyrie. unless you are dealing him for kahwi or some top 7 guy, you get much worse without him

Yeah, I was a little cynical there. He's definitely a big plus, although not as much of one as he was at the start of last season IMO. If I had a point there, it's that the depth situation has changed such that he's not needed as much.

Either way, I really am wondering if a healthy version of this team could indeed win a trophy without him playing at all. I'm leaning towards "yes" at the moment. Guess we'll see.

CAN win without him? sure.

Likely to win without him? id say no. Miami is built to stop us with kyrie, let alone without him.

Prokorov wrote:CAN win without him? sure.

Likely to win without him? id say no. Miami is built to stop us with kyrie, let alone without him.

Yeah yeah... but you just NEVER KNOW with kyrie. My point.

Or do you disagree...?

speaking for most of the Toronto fanbase.

It would be very very difficult for us to take on Kyrie and we are giving up our better assets for him. culture is big here and Kyrie does not have that.

ronaldo922 wrote:speaking for most of the Toronto fanbase.

It would be very very difficult for us to take on Kyrie and we are giving up our better assets for him. culture is big here and Kyrie does not have that.

Kyrie is a great culture guy. this is the number 1 example. standing up for his rights, even when he get trashed for it in the media.

gigantes wrote:

Prokorov wrote:CAN win without him? sure.

Likely to win without him? id say no. Miami is built to stop us with kyrie, let alone without him.

Yeah yeah... but you just NEVER KNOW with kyrie. My point.

Or do you disagree...?

for me odds of us wininng a title with kyrie = 95%

odds of winning without him = 15%

Prokorov wrote:

gigantes wrote:

Prokorov wrote:CAN win without him? sure.

Likely to win without him? id say no. Miami is built to stop us with kyrie, let alone without him.

Yeah yeah... but you just NEVER KNOW with kyrie. My point.

Or do you disagree...?

for me odds of us wininng a title with kyrie = 95%

odds of winning without him = 15%

So, no.


We are theoretically the prohibitive favorites, with an healthy and compliant Big 3. I would take us over the field, but 95% odds are just lunacy. 60% is as bullish as any franchise should be, especially considering Brooklyn has never climbed the mountaintop before. Besides, aren't you the guy who thinks we can't win more than 59 games at full health? If we're a 95% lock to win it all, how are we in #2/3 seed W-L territory? Load management doesn't account for that much cognitive dissonance.

For those of you who remember my "How Do We Stack Up?" thread, you'll know that I have a theory about winning in the NBA. Basically, I feel that in the playoffs, your best player accounts for 40% of your level of play. If he's a top-2 player in the league like ours is, you're in great shape. The 2nd-best player accounts for 30%, your 3rd for 20% and your 4th for 10%.

Great depth helps a ton through the regular season to stave off injuries to your top 4, and bench guys can have gaudy box scores in the playoffs. But assuming your top 4 are healthy and your supplemental guys aren't actively working against you, those 4 are all that really matter as far as the outcome of a postseason game or series.

If we do not have Kyrie at all this season, and we replace him with no one else, we fall just below Milwaukee in my calculations. Joe becomes our 3rd-best player in that scenario, and Blake or Bruce our 4th. Still a nose ahead of the Western Conference teams, but we would need a bit of luck or outlier development from our kids to beat the Bucks.

But what if we traded Irving for Murray? Or Van Vleet? Or Simmons? Or Turner? Heck, if even Porzingis? Any of these guys would be an underwhelming return for a top-15 player, but that elite player is no good to us in street clothes. Having that minor addition would be enough to keep us comfortably in front of the reigning Champs. That's enough for me.

Kyrie would need to be vaccinated to play in Toronto

ecuhus1981 wrote:If we do not have Kyrie at all this season, and we replace him with no one else, we fall just below Milwaukee in my calculations. Joe becomes our 3rd-best player in that scenario, and Blake or Bruce our 4th. Still a nose ahead of the Western Conference teams, but we would need a bit of luck or outlier development from our kids to beat the Bucks.

Joe, you think?

I would have thought Joe's moreso part of a roughly-equal group of 3rd's, like a healthy Aldridge, Blake, Mills... perhaps even Clax and Millsap. This seems like a heck of a lot of depth at the 'semi-star' position, and the rest of the roster has arguably been upgraded as well.

Beard also has a full training camp to work himself in with this time around. That's gotta help. This all circles back to why I'm not sure Kyrie's going to be *that* missed this time around, assuming Harden stays healthy. And I'm not sure MIL has the better roster, even without Kyrie.

Incidentally, sounds like more municipalities are going to be vaxx-mandating, going forward. LA seems to be joining the list along with TOR, I guess. So before long, we may be looking at a situation where Kyrie can only play a ~third of the games or something. Who's trading for that?

gigantes wrote:

ecuhus1981 wrote:If we do not have Kyrie at all this season, and we replace him with no one else, we fall just below Milwaukee in my calculations. Joe becomes our 3rd-best player in that scenario, and Blake or Bruce our 4th. Still a nose ahead of the Western Conference teams, but we would need a bit of luck or outlier development from our kids to beat the Bucks.

Joe, you think?

I would have thought Joe's moreso part of a roughly-equal group of 3rd's, like a healthy Aldridge, Blake, Mills... perhaps even Clax and Millsap. This seems like a heck of a lot of depth at the 'semi-star' position, and the rest of the roster has arguably been upgraded as well.

Beard also has a full training camp to work himself in with this time around. That's gotta help. This all circles back to why I'm not sure Kyrie's going to be *that* missed this time around, assuming Harden stays healthy. And I'm not sure MIL has the better roster, even without Kyrie.

Incidentally, sounds like more municipalities are going to be vaxx-mandating, going forward. LA seems to be joining the list along with TOR, I guess. So before long, we may be looking at a situation where Kyrie can only play a ~third of the games or something. Who's trading for that?

Very true, sir. The increasing list of vaccine mandate cities and states could soon effectively bar Kyrie from competing at all, ASSUMING he maintains his position.

Of course, Irving could dispel all of this distraction in an hour, any hour. He says he hates drama, and blames everyone else for bringing it to him. But he actually loves drama, he lives for it, and he is the author of his own tragedy. This may be a bit hot-take-ish, it seems like Kyrie romanticizes this experience as his oppression, his Selma, his Auschwitz. It reminds me of that meme where the boy... well, instead of explaining it...

ecuhus1981 wrote:...He says he hates drama, and blames everyone else for bringing it to him. But he actually loves drama, he lives for it, and he is the author of his own tragedy. This may be a bit hot-take-ish, it seems like Kyrie romanticizes this experience as his oppression, his Selma, his Auschwitz. It reminds me of that meme where the boy... well, instead of explaining it...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/787/boot.jpg

That makes a lot of sense to me, yeah.

While I can appreciate Kyrie's questioning nature, this conspiracy stuff is just for the birds. I think a major part of all this is tied to his ego and the hooked-on feeling of 'most people in society are are either liars or pawns, but I can figure it all out with time.' It's like a self-supplying ammunition that keeps reloading him.

But to me, if you can't respect the science and best experts in any field, you're skating down the path of being a... self-flattering narcissist, or something like that. Like, nobody's perfect, and we're all going to be eccentric (and ignorant) to some degree or another, but you can still be open to the idea that you're wrong about something, and that there's always the science and best experts to help you understand.

So in the end, it seems like Kai has a tendency to go for the easy path, rather than the (admittedly) more challenging path of embracing facts & reality. Again, something like that.