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LeBron or Jordan?
LeBron or Jordan?
LeBron or Jordan?
LeBron or Jordan?

I can't tell you how sick I am of that narrative.

That question is the biggest BS in the history of basketball.

If you think LeBron is better than Jordan because he's bigger and stronger, then Wilt would have humiliated LBJ.

If you view GOAT in terms of pure athleticism, basketball skills and competitiveness, Jordan eats LBJ for lunch.

And the bottom line is, KD is the only player in the world I have ever seen who has the size and skill of Hakeem in the box, arguably one of the best mid-range Jump Shots ever, especially for players his size, and the same is true of his range from 3. He's like a Center who has the skills and agility of a Wing and the jump-shot of a SG. The most unique and best player of this era in my view. LeBron gets more hype, but KD is the better player.

IMO the only players in history better than KD, "individual talent", were Wilt and MJ.

Those are the two players I have in this conversation, NOT LeBron James.

And as much as I love Wilt, he was an awful FT shooter so you could hack him at the end of games, and so is LBJ.

Kevin Durant, OTHO, is nearly a 90% FT Shooter, so you don't even have the option of hacking him.

WILT would dismantle LeBron, but Durant vs Wilt would at least be competitive.

1. Wilt
2. Jordan
3. Durant

We can argue about #4, but it wouldn't be LBJ on my list. I've seen too many players who were better.

Heck, I'd start my team with a young Dr. J over a young LeBron James, without a moment of hesitation.

I've got MJ #1. I used to give in to the LeBron is #2 narrative, but it's not that clear cut. Personally, I think KD has been better than James since his last year in OKC.

Kareem is undisputed #1 for me. MJ undisputed #2. from there id take any order of Lebron, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Bird.

KD aint in the company yet,

Last 3-5 years KD is the best. but career? no.

Prokorov wrote:Kareem is undisputed #1 for me. MJ undisputed #2. from there id take any order of Lebron, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Bird.

KD aint in the company yet,

Last 3-5 years KD is the best. but career? no.

We disagree on KD, but that aside your list is definitely 'respectable'.

I just don't know why so many NETS FANS underrate Doc as much as they do.

Whether younger Nets fans know it or not, a lot of the older all-time greats were in awe of Julius.

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It's debatable about best player but, he definitely best scorer hands down. Kobe, MJ, Kareem, Russell etc all had their weak points teams tried to exploit, KD doesn't have one, he also does it more efficiently. Yeah Russell and Kareem been more efficient, they needed to be set up with ball, KD can can create for himself. MJ, Kobe etc never been as efficient and didn't have deadly 3 to make others around them better, opposite is true.

GTR11 wrote:

Read on Twitter

Best Mid-Range Jump-shot in the league. Unusual for such a big man, but it's that length that make his M.R. unblockable. You just have to hope he misses, cause you're not blocking his shot.

Maybe there's a few more players who have a similar M.R. %, but I doubt there are any his size.

Whiskey Slick wrote:

GTR11 wrote:

Read on Twitter

Best Mid-Range Jump-shot in the league. Unusual for such a big man, but it's that length that make his M.R. unblockable. You just have to hope he misses, cause you're not blocking his shot.

Maybe there's a few more players who have a similar M.R. %, but I doubt there are any his size.

Tatum will probably be there along. Thing is, Tatum is too ball dominant which diminishing his teammates games. KD is such unique player with tremendous IQ, his game will fit any system. The way it looks Tatum will never get there. He don't understand game the way KD does.

The OP isn't even about KD, just an irrational Lebron hate post.

TheNetsFan wrote:I've got MJ #1. I used to give in to the LeBron is #2 narrative, but it's not that clear cut. Personally, I think KD has been better than James since his last year in OKC.

KD is playing out of his mind right now but Lebron has like 6 or 7 seasons better than KD's best. KD has been better than Lebron for the last two or so years but that's really where it ends.

dcstanley wrote::lol: The OP isn't even about KD, just an irrational Lebron hate post.

TheNetsFan wrote:I've got MJ #1. I used to give in to the LeBron is #2 narrative, but it's not that clear cut. Personally, I think KD has been better than James since his last year in OKC.

KD is playing out of his mind right now but Lebron has like 6 or 7 seasons better than KD's best. KD has been better than Lebron for the last two or so years but that's really where it ends.

I don't know if LeBron has had any season better than KD's best, but I admittedly value scoring, especially clutch, isolate and get your own shot and carry your team scoring above all else. While other aspects of basketball factor in, scoring is the true differentiator between the very good and franchise carrying players. While still very highly rated, I would be lower on Lebron and Russell than others.

TheNetsFan wrote:

dcstanley wrote::lol: The OP isn't even about KD, just an irrational Lebron hate post.

TheNetsFan wrote:I've got MJ #1. I used to give in to the LeBron is #2 narrative, but it's not that clear cut. Personally, I think KD has been better than James since his last year in OKC.

KD is playing out of his mind right now but Lebron has like 6 or 7 seasons better than KD's best. KD has been better than Lebron for the last two or so years but that's really where it ends.

I don't know if LeBron has had any season better than KD's best, but I admittedly value scoring, especially clutch, isolate and get your own shot and carry your team scoring above all else. While other aspects of basketball factor in, scoring is the true differentiator between the very good and franchise carrying players. While still very highly rated, I would be lower on Lebron and Russell than others.

Not my intention to argue but Lebron is one of the greatest playoff scorers of all time. MJ and KD are really the only players that scored at similar volume and efficiency as him. KD's playoff efficiency increased when he joined the Warriors but when comparing LBJ/KD across their careers they scored at a similar rate in the playoffs on similar volume. Lebron has 6 playoff runs averaging more than 30 ppg, KD has 2. All of Lebron's runs averaging 30 ppg are longer than 13 games. KD's are 11 and 12 games respectively. When KD is thrusted into situations that involve higher volume scoring (due to injuries to co-stars like the 2013, 2018, and 2021 playoffs) his efficiency and turnovers look messier. Lebron, on the other hand, has thrived on teams that required higher volume scoring (2007, 2009, and 2018 playoffs). Not saying Lebron is a better scorer than KD but I think you're underselling his scoring ability quite a bit, especially since you compared him to a defensive star like Russell.

Stylistic qualms with Lebron's scoring is often conflated with his scoring ability. Kobe, for example, had a much prettier game than Lebron but he wasn't nearly as effective as him at putting the ball in the hoop.

I recommend this pod breaking down the best of the best at scoring the rock: https://www.stitcher.com/show/thinking-basketball-podcast/episode/50-top-scorers-in-nba-history-revisited-68269011

LeBron is the clearly superior player all time and in terms of peak/prime. Don’t think anything objective really supports KD here, just a lot of narrative about his scoring skillset…but LeBron scores on the same or better volume with the same efficiency and leads better offenses while doing it. During his best seasons, he also simply destroys KD as a defensive player and as the primary playmaker for his team.

LeBron is the GOAT. KD simply isn’t close to that conversation.

We’re getting carried away with a great stretch of games from KD extending to last year’s playoff run, while LeBron has been past his prime and injury prone for the last 3 years or so. It’s like comparing Wizards Jordan to prime Lakers Kobe and concluding that Kobe was always better. It ignores the actual reality of the situation.

Jordan, Kareem, LeBron and Kobe are the greatest players imo. If KD can win 2 championships over the next few years he enters the discussion.

therealbig3 wrote:LeBron is the clearly superior player all time and in terms of peak/prime. Don’t think anything objective really supports KD here, just a lot of narrative about his scoring skillset…but LeBron scores on the same or better volume with the same efficiency and leads better offenses while doing it. During his best seasons, he also simply destroys KD as a defensive player and as the primary playmaker for his team.

LeBron is the GOAT. KD simply isn’t close to that conversation.

We’re getting carried away with a great stretch of games from KD extending to last year’s playoff run, while LeBron has been past his prime and injury prone for the last 3 years or so. It’s like comparing Wizards Jordan to prime Lakers Kobe and concluding that Kobe was always better. It ignores the actual reality of the situation.

I don't think Prime LeBron > Prime Jordan. Not having watched both. LeBron is the greatest player of the modern era since his draft class though.

I hate to go here, because CR7 is a polarizing personality. I liken the KD versus LBJ debate to Messi and Ronaldo. Lionel has a greater overall impact on winning by every metric. BUT, if you need a goal and have met all your other needs, Cristiano is the best in the world at goal scoring, which is the object of the game. Kevin isn't as much of an all-around player as Lebron, but if you ask folks around the league who they prefer to shoot a win-or-lose FG, most would take Durant in a heartbeat.

Whiskey Slick wrote:LeBron or Jordan?
LeBron or Jordan?
LeBron or Jordan?
LeBron or Jordan?

I can't tell you how sick I am of that narrative.

I love Wilt, but I'm okay with that debate, if only because of recency bias. But trying to pinpoint the NBA GOAT of GOAT's has always been a fool's errand to me. That question will never be settled for any number of reasons, so why force it?

Better I think is to frame it as a Mt. Rushmore debate, and narrow it down to ~six players or so who deserve to be atop the mountain. In which case, Wilt / Jordan / LeBron / Kareem make up my personal, current Mt. Rushmore, and I'm not really sure who the closest outsiders are at this point.

Some sports are different, of course. Hockey, for example. Like, is anyone seriously considering Wayne Gretzky not the best hockey player ever? Then there's tennis, in which on the men's side, in terms of singles success, the Mt. Rushmore is heavily locked in upon Laver - Fed - Rafa - Djokes. Or tennis on the women's side, where Navritalova is decisively the GOAT in terms of all-around success, yet I'm not sure she's even in the mix for women's singles GOAT. Crazy, huh?

But this is bball, which is why we're in the Mt. Rushmore situation, not the GOAT situation. Anyway...

- Magic & Bird were amazing players, but their defense was another matter. Because the top guys were all fantastic two-way players.

- Russell was a great defensive player and a decent offensive player, but played on de facto all-star teams in a microscopic league across his entire career. His championship-case is one of the most unimpressive, emptiest things I've ever seen across sports history.

- Kobe (RIP) was Jordan 2.0 in a lot of ways (sorry Harold Miner), but wasn't remotely the same player in terms of scoring efficiency, nor ability to lead a team. He also lacked Jordan's ability to completely destroy an opponent mentally, and in my mind, that's hardly a compliment to Jordan as a human being, but it is what it is. Because if Kobe hadn't been someone who loved to blow up Tex Winters' schemes, and was able to defer to the slightly better player (Shaq), and not turn the whole thing in to such a soap opera, I could see myself putting Kobe somewhere near the big four.

- As a person who grew up in Philly (near Lower Merion, actually, where Kobe's from) I'm honestly not sure why Dr. J was mentioned in this debate. He's one of the greatest, for sure, but GOAT / Mt. R? Break it down for me, pls...?

- I love Kevin Durant, and I assume everyone else here does, too, but... yeah, a Mt.R argument is still a ways away IMO. Because somehow, some way, I feel like there needs to be a 'breakthrough' of sorts, even if it just comes down to more years of super-efficiency. But for sure I can see him getting closer and closer to Mt.R, assuming good health and youthfulness.

- Chef Curry, the most crushingly-amazing shooter in NBA history; we can't say his defense has ever been close to Mt.R, but that's not expected from a PG. Much better is, what, win-shares, assist ratio, WAR... that sort of thing?

My six man Mount Rushmore would be:

Wilt/Jordan/Julius/Durant/Kobe/Curry

It's a hard Mount Rushmore. No matter which way you go you're leaving off a half dozen all-time greats.

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KD got caught having ashy legs last night and other players are roasting him