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James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!)

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James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#1 » by Prokorov » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:14 pm

Harden's demise has been grossly overstated. and while haters salivated the first week as refs refused to blow whistles on intentional fouls of Harden, he has slowly worked back to pre-injury form and the refs are starting to normalize. Harden adjusted as well.... This is how "fat washed up, cant job the rules" harden looks compared to last year

last year: 7.3 FT attempts per game
This year: 7.0 FT attempts per game

Last year: 24/11/8 on 61.9 TS%
This year: 22/9/8 on 60.5 TS%

He was the "king of brooklyn" (i.e. player of the game) in 4 of the last 5 games for us and has 7 of those compared to KDs 6 this year.

All while being 70-80% back in shape and his shot being off from three a bit. He is going to be in the running for MVP by years end.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#2 » by ecuhus1981 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:23 pm

Harden and Durant will cannibalize MVP votes from each other, but that's a good problem. And yes, James is on the way to getting back to his 100%, and it has haters DEEEEEP in their feels.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#3 » by gigantes » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:21 am

Assuming he's still working himself back in to shape and will indeed be near-MVP material by season's end, my main concern with Beard is how he's going to hold up now that he's entering what's normally the end of a player's prime (32yo). Specifically:

1) Regardless of his deep set of skills, James is a fairly average NBA athlete who uses great footwork and bull-like strength to make up for that. What then, will it look like going forward as he starts to lose athleticism and stamina to father time?

2) As players age, they tend to get injured more easily, and therefore must be managed more exactingly by the coaching and training staffs. Knowing the Nets, I'm pretty confident they'll do a fantastic job of that, but there's still the fact that despite all the best efforts, sometimes players in the tail end of their careers can get stuck in a cycle of 'playing / getting a minor-to-medium injury / rehabilitating / playing their way back in to shape' that can kind of dominate their entire seasons. Particularly tough to see when a player's skillset and base athleticism is obviously still there-- just that they have an increasingly hard time staying on the court in peak form.

Having said all that, I think I'm basically just bitching, here. Getting Beard was an investment, if somewhat gambler-ish, and I don't know that there's any way forward other than max-resigning him and seeing things through.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#4 » by KD35Netted » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:34 pm

The question will come up by April-June, do you pay and invest in him 270 million over five years? Not sure it helps the Nets long term. If Kyrie were reliable, I would rather bank on him considering he’s only 29. Not sure you pay Harden that kind of money at 32 years old through 37. And he’s not KD. KD will be efficient until the day he gets injured or retires. It will be an interesting 2022 off season, not looking forward to it either. If they can squeeze a ring out this year, nothing afterwards matters.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#5 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:05 pm

harden is shooting threes at a 37% clip too, which is in line with his career numbers after a horrific start. he's getting there.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#6 » by gigantes » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:19 pm

KD35Netted wrote:If they can squeeze a ring out this year, nothing afterwards matters.

Feelings aside, I think this is probably the right way to look at it.

I get a queasy feeling thinking about letting Beard go after paying such a steep price for him, but if the Nets indeed win a chip this year, then you have to think that full value has been achieved after arguably being the best team in the league for two straight seasons following the trade.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#7 » by sashaturiaf » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:13 pm

Like it or not we are stuck with him now, we gotta max him out and hope he returns to the dominant version that we traded for.

This current version of Harden does not fill me with great confidence that he can be the #2 KD needs to have the dynasty that was promised. His scoring ability is too situational, his defense too inconsistent and his intangibles and energy too lacking for me to think he can be our #2 without Kyrie also being out there.

I love his vision and he is definitely looking better week by week, but my concern is more the fact current Harden and KD isn't enough with the current roster. The blame probably shouldn't be targetted at Harden - since if we could actually replace Kyrie's empty salary with a wings + a big (say Mikal Bridges/Richaun Holmes or Capela/Danny Green) then I'd easily favor us against anybody.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#8 » by HardenGoat » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:35 am

I personally think he is holding back and will continue to do so right up until the playoffs. If Kyrie continues to hold out we need to use that salary for interior scoring. We lack that threat at the rim. We had Jeff Green, Kyrie, and Jordan last year filling that void. A ring is priceless. We have to do whatever we can to get the chip this year.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#9 » by old skool » Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:43 pm

I think Harden's conditioning in the first quarter of the season will cost him MVP votes like it did in 2021 when he finished tied for 13th in MVP voting. The 2022 MVP looks like it is going to Curry or Durant. Barring injuries, I don't see how Harden gets into that conversation.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#10 » by Sharcm1 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:00 pm

Mvp of turnovers.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#11 » by GTR11 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:10 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:harden is shooting threes at a 37% clip too, which is in line with his career numbers after a horrific start. he's getting there.


I have De Javu moment when I watch Harden right now. Reminds me of another guy that took us to finals. He clearly was slowing down but still was great.

I think Harden has 2 more years left in him as top player. Anything else is ...

I don't want yo think about it right now. I want that ring we got rubbed years ago with Ratner.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#12 » by GTR11 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:25 pm

HardenGoat wrote:I personally think he is holding back and will continue to do so right up until the playoffs. If Kyrie continues to hold out we need to use that salary for interior scoring. We lack that threat at the rim. We had Jeff Green, Kyrie, and Jordan last year filling that void. A ring is priceless. We have to do whatever we can to get the chip this year.


1- we not getting anything for Kyrie.

2- DJ got benched and hasn't seen court for second half of the season.

3- if Harden feels that way, well we in the world of trouble. His wheel came off month before playoffs. Him averaging 35+ min not helping either.

4- Only option we had was Din. We blew it.

5- I'm not mad at Nash yet. We don't even have set rotations. This supporting cast outside of Patty can't be relied upon. Even Joe missing time now and others consistently inconsistent ( you should stop listening to Prok unless want to have good laughs ).
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#13 » by GTR11 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:37 pm

gigantes wrote:Assuming he's still working himself back in to shape and will indeed be near-MVP material by season's end, my main concern with Beard is how he's going to hold up now that he's entering what's normally the end of a player's prime (32yo). Specifically:

1) Regardless of his deep set of skills, James is a fairly average NBA athlete who uses great footwork and bull-like strength to make up for that. What then, will it look like going forward as he starts to lose athleticism and stamina to father time?

2) As players age, they tend to get injured more easily, and therefore must be managed more exactingly by the coaching and training staffs. Knowing the Nets, I'm pretty confident they'll do a fantastic job of that, but there's still the fact that despite all the best efforts, sometimes players in the tail end of their careers can get stuck in a cycle of 'playing / getting a minor-to-medium injury / rehabilitating / playing their way back in to shape' that can kind of dominate their entire seasons. Particularly tough to see when a player's skillset and base athleticism is obviously still there-- just that they have an increasingly hard time staying on the court in peak form.

Having said all that, I think I'm basically just bitching, here. Getting Beard was an investment, if somewhat gambler-ish, and I don't know that there's any way forward other than max-resigning him and seeing things through.


If Harden leaves this off-season, we can kiss goodbye to KD as well.

Better question is. What they going to do with Kyrie this off-season. He might give falls hope to KD and Harden, I just don't think Tsai/Marks and them going to get fooled again. As you mentioned, it's probably their last year's in NBA as top players.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#14 » by KD35Netted » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:35 pm

GTR11 wrote:
gigantes wrote:Assuming he's still working himself back in to shape and will indeed be near-MVP material by season's end, my main concern with Beard is how he's going to hold up now that he's entering what's normally the end of a player's prime (32yo). Specifically:

1) Regardless of his deep set of skills, James is a fairly average NBA athlete who uses great footwork and bull-like strength to make up for that. What then, will it look like going forward as he starts to lose athleticism and stamina to father time?

2) As players age, they tend to get injured more easily, and therefore must be managed more exactingly by the coaching and training staffs. Knowing the Nets, I'm pretty confident they'll do a fantastic job of that, but there's still the fact that despite all the best efforts, sometimes players in the tail end of their careers can get stuck in a cycle of 'playing / getting a minor-to-medium injury / rehabilitating / playing their way back in to shape' that can kind of dominate their entire seasons. Particularly tough to see when a player's skillset and base athleticism is obviously still there-- just that they have an increasingly hard time staying on the court in peak form.

Having said all that, I think I'm basically just bitching, here. Getting Beard was an investment, if somewhat gambler-ish, and I don't know that there's any way forward other than max-resigning him and seeing things through.


If Harden leaves this off-season, we can kiss goodbye to KD as well.

Better question is. What they going to do with Kyrie this off-season. He might give falls hope to KD and Harden, I just don't think Tsai/Marks and them going to get fooled again. As you mentioned, it's probably their last year's in NBA as top players.



KD is signed to an extension. They won’t trade him unless it’s for a full rebuild. Harden/Ky are the two to pay attention to. I have said that it will be difficult seeing the Nets dish out 270 million over five years for him considering where he is at. If Kyrie is gone and Harden is gone, Nets will try and retool first to make it work with KD. I have said they need to win it all this year to get that crap off their shoulders. Last year we were on the verge and a Giannis undercut **** it up. This year the Warriors are lighting up the league as are the Suns. Who beats them in a finals series right now? Nobody. A returning Kyrie puts it all to bed and Harden can play pure point without being a hybrid. Nets will make the trades to help carry the team over the hump. Marks won’t stand pat and KD wants at least another ring.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#15 » by Prokorov » Yesterday 1:35 am

Way too much overreaction. if the season ended today harden is probably 3rd-team All-NBA. 22/9/8 on 61 TS% and his team is 1st in the east. he has as many "king of the games" this year as KD, meaning about half the games this year he has been our best player.

Harden not being MVP/1st team all-nba level yet, or having 4 bad games out of 20 is not some enormous cause for concern.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#16 » by Prokorov » Yesterday 1:37 am

HardenGoat wrote:I personally think he is holding back and will continue to do so right up until the playoffs. If Kyrie continues to hold out we need to use that salary for interior scoring. We lack that threat at the rim. We had Jeff Green, Kyrie, and Jordan last year filling that void. A ring is priceless. We have to do whatever we can to get the chip this year.


you dont pay big money for rim scoring. you get some plumlee type and give him 12 minutes, more if he is feasting on lobs.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#17 » by GTR11 » Yesterday 4:16 am

KD35Netted wrote:
GTR11 wrote:
gigantes wrote:Assuming he's still working himself back in to shape and will indeed be near-MVP material by season's end, my main concern with Beard is how he's going to hold up now that he's entering what's normally the end of a player's prime (32yo). Specifically:

1) Regardless of his deep set of skills, James is a fairly average NBA athlete who uses great footwork and bull-like strength to make up for that. What then, will it look like going forward as he starts to lose athleticism and stamina to father time?

2) As players age, they tend to get injured more easily, and therefore must be managed more exactingly by the coaching and training staffs. Knowing the Nets, I'm pretty confident they'll do a fantastic job of that, but there's still the fact that despite all the best efforts, sometimes players in the tail end of their careers can get stuck in a cycle of 'playing / getting a minor-to-medium injury / rehabilitating / playing their way back in to shape' that can kind of dominate their entire seasons. Particularly tough to see when a player's skillset and base athleticism is obviously still there-- just that they have an increasingly hard time staying on the court in peak form.

Having said all that, I think I'm basically just bitching, here. Getting Beard was an investment, if somewhat gambler-ish, and I don't know that there's any way forward other than max-resigning him and seeing things through.


If Harden leaves this off-season, we can kiss goodbye to KD as well.

Better question is. What they going to do with Kyrie this off-season. He might give falls hope to KD and Harden, I just don't think Tsai/Marks and them going to get fooled again. As you mentioned, it's probably their last year's in NBA as top players.



KD is signed to an extension. They won’t trade him unless it’s for a full rebuild. Harden/Ky are the two to pay attention to. I have said that it will be difficult seeing the Nets dish out 270 million over five years for him considering where he is at. If Kyrie is gone and Harden is gone, Nets will try and retool first to make it work with KD. I have said they need to win it all this year to get that crap off their shoulders. Last year we were on the verge and a Giannis undercut **** it up. This year the Warriors are lighting up the league as are the Suns. Who beats them in a finals series right now? Nobody. A returning Kyrie puts it all to bed and Harden can play pure point without being a hybrid. Nets will make the trades to help carry the team over the hump. Marks won’t stand pat and KD wants at least another ring.


We have no chance but to resign Harden. Anything else going to be disaster.

Last month ( I think ) I said at what point and where do Nets draw a line with Kyrie and his antics. We all know it won't be pretty at all.

If we get to the point where KD demands trade. I'm taking time off.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#18 » by Prokorov » Yesterday 5:31 am

1) KD wont demand a trade. for one, he supports this kind of thing from Kyrie. second, its not just basketball for these guys, and KD said, on his own podcast, coming to brooklyn was more then about a championship. there is 0.0% chance he leaves. regardless of what happens with Harden or Kyrie.

2) there is no decision to make. you sign both and you are thrilled to do so. Let me remind everyone that 4 short years ago this board was pissed off because Marks got outbid for kent bazemore and miami matched our offer on Tyler Johnson.

Kent Effing Bazemore. thats the kind of free agents we were gunning for. The idea we have KD is absurd. the idea we can sign Harden OR Kyrie is beyond fortunate... once in 20 years you get the chance to sign 1 of those guys, let alone 2. Regardless of the potential downside or risk with Kyrie or Harden you sign both for as much as you can as long as you can and live with any downside.

the floor with harden/kyrie is probably better then the ceiling of 99% of the alternatives.

Hell as it is we have the best record through 20 games in franchise history with no Kyrie and Harden playing like 75% of his form last year.
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#19 » by Pablo Escobar » Yesterday 6:04 am

Prokorov wrote:1) KD wont demand a trade. for one, he supports this kind of thing from Kyrie. second, its not just basketball for these guys, and KD said, on his own podcast, coming to brooklyn was more then about a championship. there is 0.0% chance he leaves. regardless of what happens with Harden or Kyrie.

2) there is no decision to make. you sign both and you are thrilled to do so. Let me remind everyone that 4 short years ago this board was pissed off because Marks got outbid for kent bazemore and miami matched our offer on Tyler Johnson.

Kent Effing Bazemore. thats the kind of free agents we were gunning for. The idea we have KD is absurd. the idea we can sign Harden OR Kyrie is beyond fortunate... once in 20 years you get the chance to sign 1 of those guys, let alone 2. Regardless of the potential downside or risk with Kyrie or Harden you sign both for as much as you can as long as you can and live with any downside.

the floor with harden/kyrie is probably better then the ceiling of 99% of the alternatives.

Hell as it is we have the best record through 20 games in franchise history with no Kyrie and Harden playing like 75% of his form last year.


Nonsense, why stack your team with Kyrie and James if it's about more than championships? It's all about titles that's why you play the game as a superstar. Supporting Kyrie and his sabotage of a title run is highly unlikely but it seems Kd is the beta in that relationship for some odd reason so you could be right..
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Re: James Harden is still an MVP (Hi Haters!) 

Post#20 » by Prokorov » Yesterday 6:24 am

Pablo Escobar wrote:
Prokorov wrote:1) KD wont demand a trade. for one, he supports this kind of thing from Kyrie. second, its not just basketball for these guys, and KD said, on his own podcast, coming to brooklyn was more then about a championship. there is 0.0% chance he leaves. regardless of what happens with Harden or Kyrie.

2) there is no decision to make. you sign both and you are thrilled to do so. Let me remind everyone that 4 short years ago this board was pissed off because Marks got outbid for kent bazemore and miami matched our offer on Tyler Johnson.

Kent Effing Bazemore. thats the kind of free agents we were gunning for. The idea we have KD is absurd. the idea we can sign Harden OR Kyrie is beyond fortunate... once in 20 years you get the chance to sign 1 of those guys, let alone 2. Regardless of the potential downside or risk with Kyrie or Harden you sign both for as much as you can as long as you can and live with any downside.

the floor with harden/kyrie is probably better then the ceiling of 99% of the alternatives.

Hell as it is we have the best record through 20 games in franchise history with no Kyrie and Harden playing like 75% of his form last year.


Nonsense, why stack your team with Kyrie and James if it's about more than championships? It's all about titles that's why you play the game as a superstar. Supporting Kyrie and his sabotage of a title run is highly unlikely but it seems Kd is the beta in that relationship for some odd reason so you could be right..


KD has tons of goals beyond basketball. if you read the book or listen to his podcasts, he makes this abundantly clear. he loves basketball but it is, in his words, about being the best version of himself and continuing to improve. titles would be great but thats is not the ultimate goal for him.

The players dont view kyrie as sabotaging anything. these guys arent robots that just play basketball. the mega stars especially get it. KD wants kyrie back, but its not like him or anyone else would feel like this is some toxic move. they all support him, and for good reasons. he fights the fights most cant afford to. he tackles the media in ways most can afford to. he creates revanue streams others dont have the reach to. his philanthropy is second to none. and he shows up and donates to all his current and former teammates causes. that stuff runs alot deeper then kyrie not playing because of the mandate.

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