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Kidd needs to go.

Seriously.

It doesn't have to be an absolute firesale before the trade deadline, but unless Rod makes a major blockbuster move and reshuffles this team, with a top 10 big man, maybe a new wing, be it RJ or VC or both that get moved, and a legit shooter scorer off the bench to back up Boki, Kidd has to go.

Rod doesn't have to make this change up before the deadline either, it could be offseason, but everyone just has to face facts.

Kidd is unhappy, and when he is unhappy he is a prick and a coach killer(although with Opie their isn't that much of a coach to kill this time).

This team, even with some decent acquisitions is not going to be a contender, we will just be competitive.

This team isn't even competitive right now, we are just a bunch of overpaid, feeling sorry for themselves, shoulder shrugging punks.

Something has got to give.

I still don't think just if you trade Kidd you have to blow it up.

I still feel like in the offseason, or at the deadline you can pull a trade such as Kidd for Nene and Dre Miller.

Maybe Kidd for Bibby and Nene.

Kidd for Brand, if Brand is back to form in the offseason and will resign with us but won't stay with the Clippers.

I mean there are a million ways to become true cotenders in the process of trading Kidd.

You know I love Kidd for what he has and had done this team.

He brought us to back to back Finals, the Eastern Conference finals vs. the eventual champs, and 2 2nd round exits, one of which we could have pulled out.

But, there is always time for change.

Also lets be completely realistic with ourselves and face facts.

How long has it been since a team needed a pure point guard to win the title?

Since when has a team won the title?

I can't remember.

I remember the Jordan Era, with the best of the best, plus Pippen, plus outstanding role players such as Ho Grant, or Rodman, Paxson, Kerr, and effecient game running points like BJ Armstrong.

I remember the Rockets, with the Dream, and a great supporting cast of guys like Cassel, Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, Robert Horry, Mario Ellie, etc.

I see teams like Detroit, with The Wallaces, a scorer like Rip, a very talented PG in Billups, who is half scorer, half pure playmaker, excellent defender and role guys like Prince and Okur that played outstanding.

I see the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq, along with again outstanding role players like Fisher, Horry, Ho Grant, Rick Fox, etc.

I see the Spurs with Duncan, one of the most underrated big men every, again, with a star SG in Ginobli and a star point, who is again a Billups type point, just not as good as Billups.

You can even go back to the Pistons.
They had Zeke.
This may have been one of the last times a pg has been the dominant character in a championship, but mind you, even though Zeke was a pure point, he was one of the flat out best scorers in the game period, especially during the playoffs, he had Joe Dumars by his side, who is one of the most underrated players in a while, and an absolutley smothering and intimidating defense.

You can say the Lakers with Magic Johnson, but that would be like Kidd being on the Spurs, Mavs or Lakers of today without changing their star lineups.
It just guarenteed a team that was always in contention for the title, and probrably slight favorites amongs an elite crop the whole thing or a 7 game chance at it.

Go back to the Sixers, or the Celtics.

These where all teams with one of the top 5 players in the game, along with another absolute star, a very high quality, but maybe not dominant PG and an ill supporting cast.

I love Kidd, but keep RJ and VC if needed, get me a guy like Brand, if he comes back healthy, put him next to Boone or S .Will, back me up with a decent bench and replace Kidd with a Bibby or Andre Miller and to me you have an instant title contender.

We would have had one if we got Gasol, but we didn't.
We would have one if we get JO and he would stay healthy, but he won't, and see his history, he is honestly one of the most un clutch offensive players in the 4th quarter of playoff games amongst star players in probrably the last 10 years of the NBA.

The Kidd era maybe over, it may not, but there are many ways to rebuild a contender without tanking it for years.

Detroit, Miami and the Lakers are all perfect examples.
These teams were all competitive playoff teams for years, and by one big move and a few small moves became champs almost overnight.

On top of this, if you notce, a lot of the teams that went to the Finals or almost made it only to lose had pure dominant PGs.

Look at Utah.

Look at the Suns.

Look at the Sonics.

Look at the Lakers the year they lost to the Pistons, although Payton was coming to an end, and there were too many egos on that team.

Look at the Cavs with Price

Look at US.

Just something to think about.

You make some very good points. Bottom line is no matter what happens not everyone will be happy

Are any of those trades you mentioned going to put us ahead of Boston or Detroit?

I still feel like in the offseason, or at the deadline you can pull a trade such as Kidd for Nene and Dre Miller.

Well, besides them not being on the same team...

Miller / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Maybe Kidd for Bibby and Nene.

Again, not the same team... what are the Kings getting out of this deal? Who does Kidd go to?

Regardless...

Bibby / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Kidd for Brand, if Brand is back to form in the offseason and will resign with us but won't stay with the Clippers.

Marcus Williams is the starting point guard on a championship team? Really? Since when did Vince Carter become Micheal Jordan? Because that's the only way Williams is the starting guard on a championship team - or even a playoff team.

How long has it been since a team needed a pure point guard to win the title?

True, a while. However... the teams that haven't won with a pure point guard have either had Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dwayne Wade, or another player who's essentially an All-Time great.

Where's that player on this team?

We need to break it up. It's been a fun 6 seasons... no sports moment has ever thrilled me more than Game 5 vs the Pacers back in 01-02. But it's over.

netsforever wrote:Are any of those trades you mentioned going to put us ahead of Boston or Detroit?

Quite possibly.

I still feel like in the offseason, or at the deadline you can pull a trade such as Kidd for Nene and Dre Miller.

Well, besides them not being on the same team...

Miller / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Why would Krstic start? Start Boone or S. Will, etc.

Maybe Kidd for Bibby and Nene.

Again, not the same team... what are the Kings getting out of this deal? Who does Kidd go to?

Kidd would go to Denver, Najera and Magloire to Sacto, Denver 1st to Sacto and maybe Marcus Williams.

Regardless...

Bibby / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Why not?

Kidd for Brand, if Brand is back to form in the offseason and will resign with us but won't stay with the Clippers.

Marcus Williams is the starting point guard on a championship team? Really? Since when did Vince Carter become Micheal Jordan? Because that's the only way Williams is the starting guard on a championship team - or even a playoff team.

No, you trade this year for Andre Miller at the deadline for Magloire and other expirings, and maybe a prospect or a draft pick. Or on draft night for Swift's expiring and a prospect or draft pick.

How long has it been since a team needed a pure point guard to win the title?

True, a while. However... the teams that haven't won with a pure point guard have either had Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dwayne Wade, or another player who's essentially an All-Time great.

Where's that player on this team?

We need to break it up. It's been a fun 6 seasons... no sports moment has ever thrilled me more than Game 5 vs the Pacers back in 01-02. But it's over.

Just imagie this.

At the deadline, this happens:
Kidd is traded to the Denver Nuggets for Nene, Najera and a future 1st.

In the offseason, Brand looks back to form, but him and Maggette make it clear they will opt out and resign elsewhere.

We send RJ (and maybe the Denver 1st rounder and or Krstic) to the Clippers for Brand, as long as he agrees to sign an extension.

We trade Swift, a 2nd rounder and Marcus Williams to Philly for Andre Miller.

We now have a starting Lineup of:
PG Dre Miller
SG VC
SF (we'll figure it out, maybe a kid we draft)
PF Brand
C Nene

We resign Boki, sign a realiable back up point, still have Boone and S. Will coming off the bench, and that my friend is a contender.

vincecarter4pres wrote:

netsforever wrote:Are any of those trades you mentioned going to put us ahead of Boston or Detroit?

Quite possibly.

I still feel like in the offseason, or at the deadline you can pull a trade such as Kidd for Nene and Dre Miller.

Well, besides them not being on the same team...

Miller / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Why would Krstic start? Start Boone or S. Will, etc.

Maybe Kidd for Bibby and Nene.

Again, not the same team... what are the Kings getting out of this deal? Who does Kidd go to?

Kidd would go to Denver, Najera and Magloire to Sacto, Denver 1st to Sacto and maybe Marcus Williams.

Regardless...

Bibby / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Why not?

Kidd for Brand, if Brand is back to form in the offseason and will resign with us but won't stay with the Clippers.

Marcus Williams is the starting point guard on a championship team? Really? Since when did Vince Carter become Micheal Jordan? Because that's the only way Williams is the starting guard on a championship team - or even a playoff team.

No, you trade this year for Andre Miller at the deadline for Magloire and other expirings, and maybe a prospect or a draft pick. Or on draft night for Swift's expiring and a prospect or draft pick.

How long has it been since a team needed a pure point guard to win the title?

True, a while. However... the teams that haven't won with a pure point guard have either had Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dwayne Wade, or another player who's essentially an All-Time great.

Where's that player on this team?

We need to break it up. It's been a fun 6 seasons... no sports moment has ever thrilled me more than Game 5 vs the Pacers back in 01-02. But it's over.

Just imagie this.

At the deadline, this happens:
Kidd is traded to the Denver Nuggets for Nene, Najera and a future 1st.

In the offseason, Brand looks back to form, but him and Maggette make it clear they will opt out and resign elsewhere.

We send RJ (and maybe the Denver 1st rounder and or Krstic) to the Clippers for Brand, as long as he agrees to sign an extension.

We trade Swift, a 2nd rounder and Marcus Williams to Philly for Andre Miller.

We now have a starting Lineup of:
PG Dre Miller
SG VC
SF (we'll figure it out, maybe a kid we draft)
PF Brand
C Nene

We resign Boki, sign a realiable back up point, still have Boone and S. Will coming off the bench, and that my friend is a contender.

Problem 1:
The Kidd to Denver deal doesn't happen because it doesn't work out financially. Also, why would Denver take on another big contract?

Problem 2:
The RJ for Brand deal doesn't happen because if ANY combination of our young players and RJ were available for Brand, it would have been done already.

Problem 3:
The Swift - Dre Miller deal doesn't happen because Philadelphia gets screwed, and because Miller's value is much higher than Swift and Williams.

None of those trades are feasible or probably given the values of the players mentioned.

Finally - that lineup doesn't make us a contender. It makes us arguably the 3rd or 4th best team in the conference. We win one series, and then lose in round 2. Just like we did the last 2 seasons.

The goal should be to improve, not to stay the same.

netsforever wrote:

vincecarter4pres wrote:

netsforever wrote:Are any of those trades you mentioned going to put us ahead of Boston or Detroit?

Quite possibly.

I still feel like in the offseason, or at the deadline you can pull a trade such as Kidd for Nene and Dre Miller.

Well, besides them not being on the same team...

Miller / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Why would Krstic start? Start Boone or S. Will, etc.

Maybe Kidd for Bibby and Nene.

Again, not the same team... what are the Kings getting out of this deal? Who does Kidd go to?

Kidd would go to Denver, Najera and Magloire to Sacto, Denver 1st to Sacto and maybe Marcus Williams.

Regardless...

Bibby / VC / RJ / Nene / Krstic is going to win a title?

Why not?

Kidd for Brand, if Brand is back to form in the offseason and will resign with us but won't stay with the Clippers.

Marcus Williams is the starting point guard on a championship team? Really? Since when did Vince Carter become Micheal Jordan? Because that's the only way Williams is the starting guard on a championship team - or even a playoff team.

No, you trade this year for Andre Miller at the deadline for Magloire and other expirings, and maybe a prospect or a draft pick. Or on draft night for Swift's expiring and a prospect or draft pick.

How long has it been since a team needed a pure point guard to win the title?

True, a while. However... the teams that haven't won with a pure point guard have either had Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dwayne Wade, or another player who's essentially an All-Time great.

Where's that player on this team?

We need to break it up. It's been a fun 6 seasons... no sports moment has ever thrilled me more than Game 5 vs the Pacers back in 01-02. But it's over.

Just imagie this.

At the deadline, this happens:
Kidd is traded to the Denver Nuggets for Nene, Najera and a future 1st.

In the offseason, Brand looks back to form, but him and Maggette make it clear they will opt out and resign elsewhere.

We send RJ (and maybe the Denver 1st rounder and or Krstic) to the Clippers for Brand, as long as he agrees to sign an extension.

We trade Swift, a 2nd rounder and Marcus Williams to Philly for Andre Miller.

We now have a starting Lineup of:
PG Dre Miller
SG VC
SF (we'll figure it out, maybe a kid we draft)
PF Brand
C Nene

We resign Boki, sign a realiable back up point, still have Boone and S. Will coming off the bench, and that my friend is a contender.

Problem 1:
The Kidd to Denver deal doesn't happen because it doesn't work out financially. Also, why would Denver take on another big contract?

Problem 2:
The RJ for Brand deal doesn't happen because if ANY combination of our young players and RJ were available for Brand, it would have been done already.

Problem 3:
The Swift - Dre Miller deal doesn't happen because Philadelphia gets screwed, and because Miller's value is much higher than Swift and Williams.

None of those trades are feasible or probably given the values of the players mentioned.

Finally - that lineup doesn't make us a contender. It makes us arguably the 3rd or 4th best team in the conference. We win one series, and then lose in round 2. Just like we did the last 2 seasons.

The goal should be to improve, not to stay the same.

I completetly disagree.

A lineup of :
PG ANdre Miller
SG VC
SF whoever, hopefully a 3 point/defensive specialist
PF BRand
C Nene Hilario

Is an absolute contender.

With a bench of Boki, SWAT, whoever we draft this year and Steven Hunter.(you are right, the Kidd for Nene deal doesn't work, they have to throw in Hunter to match salaries, we might have to give up Boone.)

But the 3 realistic deals are:
Kidd and Boone for Nene, Najera and Hunter and a 1st.

RJ and Curly for Brand

Swift, Marcus Williams and Denver 1st rounder for Dre Miller.

I completetly disagree.

A lineup of :
PG ANdre Miller
SG VC
SF whoever, hopefully a 3 point/defensive specialist
PF BRand
C Nene Hilario

Is an absolute contender.

With a bench of Boki, SWAT, whoever we draft this year and Steven Hunter.(you are right, the Kidd for Nene deal doesn't work, they have to throw in Hunter to match salaries, we might have to give up Boone.)

But the 3 realistic deals are:
Kidd and Boone for Nene, Najera and Hunter and a 1st.

RJ and Curly for Brand

Swift, Marcus Williams and Denver 1st rounder for Dre Miller.

You know, that's not too shabby of a lineup. We'd probably be the three seed in the East - after Detroit and Boston. We'd certainly be in at least the semifinals every year. However, I don't think we'd be talented enough to be considered a championship level team...maybe if we could get a guy like Battier at the 3?

However, that's where we were after last season. 3rd best team in the East - 2nd round loss. Seems like running in place to me, just with different personell.

netsforever wrote:

I completetly disagree.

A lineup of :
PG ANdre Miller
SG VC
SF whoever, hopefully a 3 point/defensive specialist
PF BRand
C Nene Hilario

Is an absolute contender.

With a bench of Boki, SWAT, whoever we draft this year and Steven Hunter.(you are right, the Kidd for Nene deal doesn't work, they have to throw in Hunter to match salaries, we might have to give up Boone.)

But the 3 realistic deals are:
Kidd and Boone for Nene, Najera and Hunter and a 1st.

RJ and Curly for Brand

Swift, Marcus Williams and Denver 1st rounder for Dre Miller.

You know, that's not too shabby of a lineup. We'd probably be the three seed in the East - after Detroit and Boston. We'd certainly be in at least the semifinals every year. However, I don't think we'd be talented enough to be considered a championship level team...maybe if we could get a guy like Battier at the 3?

However, that's where we were after last season. 3rd best team in the East - 2nd round loss. Seems like running in place to me, just with different personell.

i don't know, with Nene at C and Brand at the 4 along with VC and Miller, and a pretty strong bench, with whatever random SF you can get, maybe a trade for a guy like Radmanovic to open up the perimeter, it's at least a a team that competes to go to the finals every year, and probrably the most West Coast sytle team in the East.

As long as you could pull off all the move s and then gel semi quickly its a lot more legitimate then what most people can come up with.

vincecarter4pres wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



i don't know, with Nene at C and Brand at the 4 along with VC and Miller, and a pretty strong bench, with whatever random SF you can get, maybe a trade for a guy like Radmanovic to open up the perimeter, it's at least a a team that competes to go to the finals every year, and probrably the most West Coast sytle team in the East.

As long as you could pull off all the move s and then gel semi quickly its a lot more legitimate then what most people can come up with.

True, most of the Kidd deals floating out there now are pretty ridiculous. I saw a Kidd - Marbury proposal a little while ago.

I just don't see that succession of moves as probable... which makes me think we're better served by breaking it up and rebuilding. Especially if we can resign Nenad cheap - and hope he regains his previous level of play after we do so... helps out a rebuilding effort.

See once again here is the problem.

We have very nice young prospects, but:

Is Curly ever goign to be any better then Illgauskgas?

What is the best Boone can become, he will never be on the level of a Bosh, or Dwight Howard, probrably even a Lamarcus Aldridge, ot an Al Jefferson, maybe like an Okafur.

The best M. Will becomes is a Chauncy Billups or Bibby, which is great.

SWAT could be a KMart if he bulked up, maybe a Camby with better post moves and less of a jumper which is great.

RJ is a hell of a player, but he is not a cornerstone player for a wing. like a Kobe, Lebron, Wade, TMac, VC, Pierce, Josh Smith, Joe Joe Johnson, Melo, Roy etc.

So basically, all this rebuilding turns into us being absolutley horrible for years, hoping to get lucky in the draft and turn it around in one year.

The NBA for the most part is about having 2 absolute stars, one semi star and an ill supporting cast.

At least one of the absolute starts has to be a completely dominant big man. Ala, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Brand, JO, Gasol, Amare, Dirk and Yao and Rasheed Wallace.
These guys are reaching or have reached their peak, maybe even on their downfall.

The next big men coming up on these guys' level are guys like, Dwight Howard, Bosh, Aldridge, maybe Wilcox or Nene, maybe Okafur, maybe, possibly even Oden, AL Jefferson, Yi, Boozer, Beidrens and Kaman.

Curly is not that, Boone is not that, SWAT is not that.

No one we have is at that true star level or really has the potential to become it.

I say we rebuild now, but to win now, and then in 3-5 years if it didn't work, most all those bigger contracts we traded for will be off the books and we will have major cap space and some decent pieces to build upon for Brooklyn.

Back up Boki? As a step in becoming a contender? I hope not.

vincecarter4pres wrote:See once again here is the problem.

We have very nice young prospects, but:

Is Curly ever goign to be any better then Illgauskgas?

What is the best Boone can become, he will never be on the level of a Bosh, or Dwight Howard, probrably even a Lamarcus Aldridge, ot an Al Jefferson, maybe like an Okafur.

The best M. Will becomes is a Chauncy Billups or Bibby, which is great.

SWAT could be a KMart if he bulked up, maybe a Camby with better post moves and less of a jumper which is great.

RJ is a hell of a player, but he is not a cornerstone player for a wing. like a Kobe, Lebron, Wade, TMac, VC, Pierce, Josh Smith, Joe Joe Johnson, Melo, Roy etc.

So basically, all this rebuilding turns into us being absolutley horrible for years, hoping to get lucky in the draft and turn it around in one year.

The NBA for the most part is about having 2 absolute stars, one semi star and an ill supporting cast.

At least one of the absolute starts has to be a completely dominant big man. Ala, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Brand, JO, Gasol, Amare, Dirk and Yao and Rasheed Wallace.
These guys are reaching or have reached their peak, maybe even on their downfall.

The next big men coming up on these guys' level are guys like, Dwight Howard, Bosh, Aldridge, maybe Wilcox or Nene, maybe Okafur, maybe, possibly even Oden, AL Jefferson, Yi, Boozer, Beidrens and Kaman.

Curly is not that, Boone is not that, SWAT is not that.

No one we have is at that true star level or really has the potential to become it.

I say we rebuild now, but to win now, and then in 3-5 years if it didn't work, most all those bigger contracts we traded for will be off the books and we will have major cap space and some decent pieces to build upon for Brooklyn.

I don't know how after all of that, this is what you think NJ should do. For age/salary reasons, it looks like your not going to get a superstar by trading Kidd or Carter. That means the only ways to get a star is through the lottery or having max cap room. Your "Rebuild, but win now" strategy eliminates any chance in the near future of getting that cap room or lottery picks.

vincecarter4pres wrote:See once again here is the problem.

We have very nice young prospects, but:

Is Curly ever goign to be any better then Illgauskgas?

What is the best Boone can become, he will never be on the level of a Bosh, or Dwight Howard, probrably even a Lamarcus Aldridge, ot an Al Jefferson, maybe like an Okafur.

The best M. Will becomes is a Chauncy Billups or Bibby, which is great.

SWAT could be a KMart if he bulked up, maybe a Camby with better post moves and less of a jumper which is great.

RJ is a hell of a player, but he is not a cornerstone player for a wing. like a Kobe, Lebron, Wade, TMac, VC, Pierce, Josh Smith, Joe Joe Johnson, Melo, Roy etc.

So basically, all this rebuilding turns into us being absolutley horrible for years, hoping to get lucky in the draft and turn it around in one year.

The NBA for the most part is about having 2 absolute stars, one semi star and an ill supporting cast.

At least one of the absolute starts has to be a completely dominant big man. Ala, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Brand, JO, Gasol, Amare, Dirk and Yao and Rasheed Wallace.
These guys are reaching or have reached their peak, maybe even on their downfall.

The next big men coming up on these guys' level are guys like, Dwight Howard, Bosh, Aldridge, maybe Wilcox or Nene, maybe Okafur, maybe, possibly even Oden, AL Jefferson, Yi, Boozer, Beidrens and Kaman.

Curly is not that, Boone is not that, SWAT is not that.

No one we have is at that true star level or really has the potential to become it.

I say we rebuild now, but to win now, and then in 3-5 years if it didn't work, most all those bigger contracts we traded for will be off the books and we will have major cap space and some decent pieces to build upon for Brooklyn.

First off... wherever he is, enetric would be proud. That line about NBA being about stars is right out of his playbook. And I completely agree with it.

I also agree with you about our player's ceilings.

Krstic will be hard pressed to be a player on the level of Big Z. Boone will be a career backup/role player. Sean Williams could turn into a K-Mart lite - but Martin, even at this age, was better on the offensive end of the court.

It is true that you need stars to win in this league. However, after 4 years, I think we can say that the pairing of Kidd-VC-RJ does not work, and either they aren't stars, or we need a big man or whatever - but it doesn't work.

The rebuilding plan that you've proposed is solid. I like Andre Miller's game, I love Elton Brand's game, and I can deal with Nene Hilario at center - despite my belief that he's incredibly overrated.

I just don't think it's realistic or feasible. I think you're looking at the Gasol trade and developing an expectation that every trade is going to be that easy. How many trades have we made in the Kidd dynasty era that involved one star player or more?

VC trade is one, the RJ-Griffin draft night trade is another. I guess you could call the Dikembe- Van Horn deal another. Three trades in 7 seasons.

Trades involving stars don't happen that often. Three trades on that level by one team in less than a year? Has that ever happened?