I just wanted your opinions on where Jason Kidd is now as a player. The consensus of the anti-Kidd crowd in Dallas seems to be that he is washed up, now a horrible defender, can't hit a perimeter shot to save his life, and really isn't that good overall (largely based on PER comparisons).
Personally, I don't believe any of that, but I hoped you guys could either prove me right or wrong by giving me your assessment. By the way, if I missed another thread on this, just point me to it. Thanks!
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DDansby123
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Netaman
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In all honesty if will take you guys less then a week to realize how great and necessary of a deal it was for you guys to win in the playoffs. Kidd has lost some quickness and overall athleticism so on defense really quick guys give him trouble, but with Jason Terry that should help get the matchups in his favor. He still gets 2 steals a game, and at the end of the game he can still make a big stop on the other teams best player or pull down the last rebound. He is a PG who averages over 8 RPG and they aren't just stats. He can get the big rebound in a big situation.
On offense his jumpshot is bad, but you need to understand that Jason Kidd's scoring ability is 1/10th of what he does for your team offensively. He can ignite a fast break by himself, he will run your offense to perfection, and he will make the players around him better like nobody you have ever seen (including Nash). He has the best court awareness I have ever seen. To understand Kidd's numbers the last few years (the big 3 era) you need to understand that our offense is so screwed up fundamentally that his 10 assts per game are a miracle. Without any pure catch and shoot player and nobody to run on the break with him every one of those assists was earned, and often times there were between 5-10 assists lost every night because Jason Collins or other members of our pathetic front court couldn't finish. In the end his long jump shots were actually a high percentage play for us. I don't think you would need to worry about that on the mavs since he will actually have capable players to pass to. Also, even though his shot is bad, he does not fear big shots and often rises to the occasion. Including VC, RJ, Kittles, KVH, and Kmart Kidd has always been our best clutch performer over the last 7 years.
Overall Kidd is simply as tough and smart as any player in the league. That is, plain and simple, how you win playoff games. As others have mentioned he can basically will a team to a victory by himself. On the Mavs he will have lessened burden on him and that will help him excel in the sense that you will not see some of the blemishes on his game that were exposed when he was the only good defender in the backcourt playing 40 minutes a night. He will make your offense look better then it ever has before, get you between 10-20 easy points on any given night, clean up on the glass, and make big defensive plays that win games. The problem with PER stats is that they weigh evenly stats that occur in the first minute of the game and last minute of the game. With Jason Kidd you are getting your production when it matters most.
On offense his jumpshot is bad, but you need to understand that Jason Kidd's scoring ability is 1/10th of what he does for your team offensively. He can ignite a fast break by himself, he will run your offense to perfection, and he will make the players around him better like nobody you have ever seen (including Nash). He has the best court awareness I have ever seen. To understand Kidd's numbers the last few years (the big 3 era) you need to understand that our offense is so screwed up fundamentally that his 10 assts per game are a miracle. Without any pure catch and shoot player and nobody to run on the break with him every one of those assists was earned, and often times there were between 5-10 assists lost every night because Jason Collins or other members of our pathetic front court couldn't finish. In the end his long jump shots were actually a high percentage play for us. I don't think you would need to worry about that on the mavs since he will actually have capable players to pass to. Also, even though his shot is bad, he does not fear big shots and often rises to the occasion. Including VC, RJ, Kittles, KVH, and Kmart Kidd has always been our best clutch performer over the last 7 years.
Overall Kidd is simply as tough and smart as any player in the league. That is, plain and simple, how you win playoff games. As others have mentioned he can basically will a team to a victory by himself. On the Mavs he will have lessened burden on him and that will help him excel in the sense that you will not see some of the blemishes on his game that were exposed when he was the only good defender in the backcourt playing 40 minutes a night. He will make your offense look better then it ever has before, get you between 10-20 easy points on any given night, clean up on the glass, and make big defensive plays that win games. The problem with PER stats is that they weigh evenly stats that occur in the first minute of the game and last minute of the game. With Jason Kidd you are getting your production when it matters most.
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dacher
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There's a reason Team USA teammates and All-Star teammates love his game -- because he's an incredible playmaker and unmatched court vision. I'd flip a coin between Kidd and Nash -- though I think Kidd is slightly better PG and Nash is helped by how fast the Suns offense is, and what a stud Amare is on the block (think Stockton Malone).
Kidd is not about stats, never has been. Yes, he's got a horribly painful inconsistent and streaky shooting touch, it is as tragic as Shaq's terrible FT shooting. He does shoot 3s at ~35% so it's not like he's got no shot at all. He picks his spots is a Bowen type spot up 3pt shooter. He won't take a shot when a better pass is available: he's a pure PG, not a SG or combo guard. And he brings huge rebounding, not just gimme rebounds, or only because the Nets big suck at rebounding (though it helps pad his numbers) -- he's taking rebounds away from opposing team. He still makes clutch defensive plays (but it takes all 5 players to defend tight, which the Nets don't have.) He used to make clutch shots all the time during the Nets NBA finals years -- but now it is VC taking 95% of clutch shots, and Kidd hasn't been converting the very few he's taken.
And Kidd is a playoff stud. Nuff said.
Kidd is not about stats, never has been. Yes, he's got a horribly painful inconsistent and streaky shooting touch, it is as tragic as Shaq's terrible FT shooting. He does shoot 3s at ~35% so it's not like he's got no shot at all. He picks his spots is a Bowen type spot up 3pt shooter. He won't take a shot when a better pass is available: he's a pure PG, not a SG or combo guard. And he brings huge rebounding, not just gimme rebounds, or only because the Nets big suck at rebounding (though it helps pad his numbers) -- he's taking rebounds away from opposing team. He still makes clutch defensive plays (but it takes all 5 players to defend tight, which the Nets don't have.) He used to make clutch shots all the time during the Nets NBA finals years -- but now it is VC taking 95% of clutch shots, and Kidd hasn't been converting the very few he's taken.
And Kidd is a playoff stud. Nuff said.
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DDansby123
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Thanks for the responses. It seems like what I see and what you guys see are the same.
One of the other issues some Mavs fans bring up is our team's lack of athleticism. They argue that playing next to VC and Jefferson makes assists easy for Kidd, since both are athletic enough to finish plays spot-up shooters just can't. Any thoughts on that?
One of the other issues some Mavs fans bring up is our team's lack of athleticism. They argue that playing next to VC and Jefferson makes assists easy for Kidd, since both are athletic enough to finish plays spot-up shooters just can't. Any thoughts on that?
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Netaman
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DDansby123 wrote:Thanks for the responses. It seems like what I see and what you guys see are the same.
One of the other issues some Mavs fans bring up is our team's lack of athleticism. They argue that playing next to VC and Jefferson makes assists easy for Kidd, since both are athletic enough to finish plays spot-up shooters just can't. Any thoughts on that?
Couldnt be further from the truth. Both players take away his assists. Both players can hit open jump shots, but neither will be confused with Michael Redd, Kevin Martin, or even Dirk anytime soon. RJ hasn't had an alley-oop since Kmart left and VC's dunks are very few and far between. Both players strength is getting the ball in their hands on the wing and driving to create their own shot. In RJ's case he basically drives to get fouled.
From watching Kidd for a long time, the types of players who benefit most from him are guys who are:
A- Supremely athletic and capable of playing above the rim and on the break - examples of this player are K-mart, RJ in his first few seasons, Sean Williams, Boone to an extent, Marion (who had his career highs with Kidd)
or
B- Great catch and shoot players. Guys who can move away from the ball, get open off of screens, and then let Kidd dribble, create room, and find them - examples of this are Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn, Lucious Harris (before he got old), Rodney Rogers on the Suns, Kristic, and even the insane number of open looks he has gotten for players like Nachbar and Wright who simply haven't always been able to convert
Now looking at the Mavs, I think you are a good fit for Kidd, but not perfect. Jason Terry will benefit in the same ways Kittles did, and possibly more-so because he is a better player. Josh Howard is similar to Jefferson in a lot of ways (probably a little more athletic at this point) so that shouldn't be an issue. Dampier's stats will probably increase slightly similar in the way Boone has played with Kidd. He will get a few dunks a game he wouldn't have normally gotten. And that brings us to Dirk. It is hard to say how his style will mesh with Kidd because, from what I have seen of him, he likes the ball in his hands. I think he will have the opportunity to take advantage of more catch and shoot situations, but by and large when the game is on the line Dirk is going to have to do what Kobe, Wade, and Lebron do, and that is score with the ball in his hands.
For all of the bitching and moaning by some Dallas fans, I think Kidd fits the Mavs much better then he would have fit with the Lakers or the Cavs.
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dacher
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VC's game is not helped by Kidd... I think VC production works like Marion's. Like how Marion's production is always constant no matter who his PG is .. Nash, Kidd, Marbury, scrub.
Boone, Krstic, Kenyon, RJ, Moore got big boosts from Kidd.
Kidd gets shooters the ball quickly when they have looks... though we brick an alarming number of open looks.
Boone, Krstic, Kenyon, RJ, Moore got big boosts from Kidd.
Kidd gets shooters the ball quickly when they have looks... though we brick an alarming number of open looks.
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Netaman
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dacher wrote:VC's game is not helped by Kidd... I think VC production works like Marion's. Like how Marion's production is always constant no matter who his PG is .. Nash, Kidd, Marbury, scrub.
Boone, Krstic, Kenyon, RJ, Moore got big boosts from Kidd.
Kidd gets shooters the ball quickly when they have looks... though we brick an alarming number of open looks.
Your point about VC and Marion in terms of production is right, however you couldn't find 2 more different players in terms of how they get it. Marion gets his stats with athleticism and basically nothing called for him all game. He gets all of his points on follow ups, cuts, dunks, fast break, and catch and shoot. He needs the ball in his hands less then any great player in the game today.
VC on the other hand needs the ball constantly. He needs plays run for him with the ball in his hands as much as just about any player in the NBA today.
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SpeedyG
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One thing I will say in addition to the type of players that play well with Kidd: players who move well without the ball and just play hard.
When RJ was out, our best fastbreak player was......Jacque Vaughn. Yes, San Antonio Spurs Jacque Vaughn. He wasn't fast. He wasn't athletic. Not a great finisher. But when Kidd gets that rebound, he ran and he ran HARD and Kidd always rewarded him. Same with Luscious. He wasn't athletic, but he ran along Kittles, and Jefferson, and Kenyon when Kidd had the ball. If the Mavs run with Kidd, they'll get their points EASY.
When RJ was out, our best fastbreak player was......Jacque Vaughn. Yes, San Antonio Spurs Jacque Vaughn. He wasn't fast. He wasn't athletic. Not a great finisher. But when Kidd gets that rebound, he ran and he ran HARD and Kidd always rewarded him. Same with Luscious. He wasn't athletic, but he ran along Kittles, and Jefferson, and Kenyon when Kidd had the ball. If the Mavs run with Kidd, they'll get their points EASY.
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MrDollarBills
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Hey Dallas fan...
Kidd is a great player if you don't mind watching the best young guards in the west blowing by him like a bull going after a matador's cape!
Kidd is a great player if you don't mind watching the best young guards in the west blowing by him like a bull going after a matador's cape!
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superemxguy
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All I know is if Jason Kidd was the point guard last year for Dallas.
Dallas would have won the championship.
Their offense look so lost against golden state warriors.
Dallas would have won the championship.
Their offense look so lost against golden state warriors.
SIC Wrote "If VC takes over and leads the Nets to the second round, I will man up and say I was WRONG." ---I would like to apologize for saying that with VC we can't advance to the second round. So to all the VC supporters you guys were right.
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lurkingobeiscity
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Kidd has never been the one on one lock down defender that he has been billed as in the past. Its his team defense and knowledge of where he should be that sets him apart. He's hard-nosed and his biggest fault defensively is that he sags too far off of good shooters. He's also a great fit alongside Terry since Kidd is probably even better at guarding SG/SFs than he is at guarding PGs.
Offensively, you don't need great athletes or shooters, just guys that run hard and are always ready (this refers to the halfcourt too). If there is a better spot the ball can be, he will put it there.
Offensively, you don't need great athletes or shooters, just guys that run hard and are always ready (this refers to the halfcourt too). If there is a better spot the ball can be, he will put it there.
Enetric wrote:Although Brook is close....despite the fact that he may be the weirdest guy in the league. Love the voice...(one time...me and Robin were in a tickle fight...and I was like...Robin...stop teasing me...)
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JES12
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mav fan here.
I'm am one of the anti-Kidd crowd he is refering to.
Just want to say that if Harris ends up in NJ, I will have to start watching a min of 164 games a year play as Harris has been my favorite mav.
I hope somehow the mavs can get past Parker, Nash, Ellis, Paul, Iverson and the rest of the west. At the same time, I hope you don't scrap it as I would love to see a Nets - Mavs Final. I know you are in 7th place right now and this trade does not have to be the 1st step in a rebuild process as I think Harris' impact is under-estimated around the league and by a small handful of Mav fans.
I'm am one of the anti-Kidd crowd he is refering to.
Just want to say that if Harris ends up in NJ, I will have to start watching a min of 164 games a year play as Harris has been my favorite mav.
I hope somehow the mavs can get past Parker, Nash, Ellis, Paul, Iverson and the rest of the west. At the same time, I hope you don't scrap it as I would love to see a Nets - Mavs Final. I know you are in 7th place right now and this trade does not have to be the 1st step in a rebuild process as I think Harris' impact is under-estimated around the league and by a small handful of Mav fans.
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arkuo
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since we already got the nets fans attention with this thread, i hope you dont mind me adding some questions to your thread ddan...
nets fans, how is kidd on the help side D? does he take charges? most "easy" points done on the mavs are mostly uncontested layups without help side D... our big men are too slow to run back on guards getting layups after blowing by terry or even dirk on pick and rolls... but in fairness to harris, he does take a lot chargers especially during fast breaks.. its where the "critics" got the idea of harris being a flopper..
there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that kidd is probably flawless on offense... my biggest concern is kidd on the defensive side because defense is what the mavs will be giving up in the trade with devin and diop... my main question is how does kidd fair on help side D? how does he help solve the mavs problems on that?
nets fans, how is kidd on the help side D? does he take charges? most "easy" points done on the mavs are mostly uncontested layups without help side D... our big men are too slow to run back on guards getting layups after blowing by terry or even dirk on pick and rolls... but in fairness to harris, he does take a lot chargers especially during fast breaks.. its where the "critics" got the idea of harris being a flopper..
there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that kidd is probably flawless on offense... my biggest concern is kidd on the defensive side because defense is what the mavs will be giving up in the trade with devin and diop... my main question is how does kidd fair on help side D? how does he help solve the mavs problems on that?