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JO to the Nets in the Offseason

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JO to the Nets in the Offseason 

Post#1 » by vincecarter4pres » Wed Apr 9, 2008 7:07 pm

Ok. Everyone is talking about getting JO in the offseason.

A lot of people think we can do it without RJ.

Mathematically, yes we can, but realistically, almost definitely no.
I just don't see Ratner taking on all that extra salary, even if it is only for 2 years, especially if we want to resign him after his contract is up.
Even though a lot of the concensus is we would clear out cap space for a major free agent signing when his contract was up, unless JO was shot we would still want to sign him as well.

Now even if it does involve RJ, I don't see any reason Indianna would want RJ unless they had someone to take on the terrible contract(s) of either Murphy or Tinsley. Even though he is superior to anyone on that roster, they have too many wings and soft bigs with bad contracts, and an upcoming stud in Granger, who they need to resign after this year(unless they just give him the qualifying offer).

So...........we need a 3rd team in the mix that realistically might want RJ or Murphy.

Disclaimer: This all works on the premise Indianna actually will want to trade JO, and in conference, that Thorn will take on his injury concerns, and other said team wants RJ.
Also all trades assume said players will take their player options.
I also have yet to examine any possibilities involving Troy Murphy, cause this is getting way to complicated with 3 teams and numerous players, let alone more players and/or 4 teams.

So here are the 3 trades that work that make sense for all parties(all trades have Indianna strictly sending out JO to NJ and NJ recieving nothing else):

NJ sends:
RJ
Swift

Utah sends:
Harpring
Jarron Collins
Jason Hart
this years 1st round pick
future 1st

Utah recieves:
RJ

Why for Utah: They get a scorer/passer/defender, etc in RJ that they lack, but they have to play him at the 2. I don't see the big deal as even though RJ is a 3, his handle and jumpshot has steadily gotten better, he is always a good passer, decent rebounder and good defender. He will work well with Deron Williams as well.



2nd trade
Cleveland sends:
Wally World
2 1st rounders including this years

Cleveland recieves RJ.

Cleveland gets a nice complemantary scorer, actually star to put next to Lebron, who is hard nosed, something a lot of that team lacks, with the exception of Lebron himself, an aging and detiorating Big Ben and Big Z, who is getting older.
I don't know if NJ or Indy does this trade, for fear of creating a true monster that is almost unbeatable for years.

Portland sends:
Raef LaFrentz
2 1st rounders, protected, but including this years if it winds up non lottery

Portland recieves RJ

Why for Portland: Pretty obvious. They have an outstanding young core in Roy, Aldridge and if he comes back healthy, Oden. They have a young but very athletic and solid bench. They have a decent 2 man rotation at PG, with Blake and Jack. They could even use Roy at the point, although I feel he is better at the 2, playing the occasional stint at the 1 every game. Their bench is Outlaw, Webster, Joel, Frye and whoever doesn't start at PG. Not Shabby. They have the MLE to get an almost stud PG to start if one is out there, or they can explore another trade, if they want to improve that spot.
So what do they lack? In a word, RJ.
A young star veteran that knows how to win, knows what it feels like and really wants it. A guy that gives it his all, is hard nosed, but doesn't have a huge ego, a team 1st guy. A guy with high B ball IQ. He can score in bunches, but will accept his role on any given night. He is coachable but not reliant. He can create for himself but flourishes in the open court and with a pass first PG or other playmakers. He himself is a playmaker.
He can defend. He can rebound.
His contract is quite friendly considering his talents.
After the ghost contracts of Steve Francis and Darius Miles come off Portland cap, even with RJ on there and some extensions done, they are not in bad shape, and more than likely a perrenial playoff team, even in the West.
So, that is why Portland would probrably be his best destination.

Man typing his description makes me not want to trade him, but anyway that is a whole different topic.

At least all 3 scenarios send him to a winning situation, most likely better so then being here, just for the very reason if we get a stud 4/5 it probrably entails trading him, and if he stays we are like a Washington Wizards team. Probrably in the high 40's for wins, and a 1st to 2nd round playoff team.

Edit: I don't know what I did, but I did not mean to make so much of this post in boldintentionally. :-?
Edit: Sort of fixed it.
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Post#2 » by aussienet » Wed Apr 9, 2008 10:17 pm

VC4P, Why are you so keen to get JO? I think that boat sailed along time ago. JO's stock is so low right now we could get him for swift and a second rounder. Yes we need a big but not a big for a bigs sake. we already have that. It would be a high risk trade and i just don't see JO givin us the high return
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Post#3 » by vincecarter4pres » Wed Apr 9, 2008 10:29 pm

I'm not so keen on getting JO.

I just keep seeing all these threads and replies relating to trading for JO, and wanted to point out we probrably wouldn't trade for him without giving up RJ.

I then came up with 3 viable trades.

JO is a huge risk if you are giving up RJ.

You can easily substitue Brand for JO, I just don't see LAC trading him, unless it is a Joe Johnson situation, where he made it clear to Phoenix he did not want them to match the offer Atlanta gave, and therefore it prompted the sign and trade.

Even in that case Phoenix got draft picks.

I guess if LAC wasn't going to retain Maggette, and Brand made it clear he didn't want an offer sheet matched, we could get him.
But that would also have to be if Brand wanted to play for NJ instead of Miami or Philly, 2 teams that I believe have the cap room to sign him to a max extension or max deal in a sign and trade.
This would also mean LAC would want RJ and maybe either one of Sean Williams, Boone, Krstic and or draft picks in return, instead of just draft picks.

So it leaves us with basically one shot at a dominant big man, JO.
I know things can change in a heartbeat, let alone from now till midseason, but I don't see many other star 4/5's available at all.

Anyway, I am not sure I would do the trade, as explained above just putting this out their and getting a gauge on everyone else's outlook.
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Post#4 » by vincecarter4pres » Wed Apr 9, 2008 10:30 pm

By the way, what boat sailed a long time ago?
A long time ago?
JO hasn't really been available for too long, and there is no way Rod was gonna trade for him at midseason when he truly didn't know anything about his health or what he would look like in real game situations since the latest injury.
That boat hasn't even left dock yet, for any team interested in him.
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Post#5 » by aussienet » Wed Apr 9, 2008 11:00 pm

VC4P, The boat that i refer to is the RJ for JO, three team or straight up swap. Like I said JO's stock is very low right now so if they took swift and a second rounder then i might be interested won't work salary wise but i hope you get my point

Elton Brand?

Now your talking!

Brand opts out. Sign and trade wih Jersey. RJ and our first rounder.
Or RJ and Boone.
(really like both players so it hurts to say this)

Yes Brand has an injury problem but he doesn't have a history of injuries.
Plus (correct me if i'm wrong) brand is a jersey boy so comin home could be a real plus for us. I say we sign Brand for 4-5 years in the 60-70 million range.
Maggette has trade value so the clippers can move him for a big, but i think they get a nice lift in boone. Plus they have thier own pick at six with a bit of luck could turn into a lottery pick. This trade would be worth re-visiting after the draft lottery. IMO

What are your thoughts on this scenario

We trade RJ and pick 9 or 10 to miami for thier number one and a player if we have to.
Miami
Wade
RJ
Marion
plus a top ten pick
they are back competitively

Nets
Harris
VC
Curly
Top 4 pick minimum
Boone

Maybe a pipe dream.

But i do take your point on spitballin and throwin things out there it has been quiet on the board as of late
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Post#6 » by vincecarter4pres » Wed Apr 9, 2008 11:15 pm

Don't especially like the RJ to Miami one unless we got Beasley, and even then he is unproven and undersized.

Brand will almost definetly command a max deal for max years.
This will be his last big contract, and he flat out deserves it.
Lay on top of this the fact he will be able to get that deal from a team he can easily make an instant contender, believe me he will get it on the grounds he passes a physical.

In my opinion, Brand, somewhat undersized or not is one of the most complete and versatil big men in the league on both ends of the floor, he has just been stuck on untalented, injury prone teams most of his career.
He was a beast in the playoffs.

Brand is the 3rd best PF in the game behind Duncan and KG.
Better than Amare, Dwight, Gasol, JO, Boozer, Al Jeff, Bosh and even Dirk. Quote it.
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Post#7 » by sendai91 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:35 am

It's a bad year to judge Brand against the rest of the pf's in the league because of his illness but I don't understand the hyperbole here at all. Brand is clearly inferior to Dirk, Amare and Dwight. Brand is very comparable if not inferior to Gasol, Boozer and Bosh. Most GM's would rate Brand as either 3rd or 4th of the latter group. I'll concede that Brand is currently better than JO or Al Jeff, although he could easily be passed by Al Jeff by halfway through next year. I could be biased because Brand hasn't played much this year, but I don't see the Mavs, Suns, Magic, Raptors or even the Jazz trading their PF for Brand straight up.
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Post#8 » by etopn23 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:43 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:Don't especially like the RJ to Miami one unless we got Beasley, and even then he is unproven and undersized.

Brand will almost definetly command a max deal for max years.
This will be his last big contract, and he flat out deserves it.
Lay on top of this the fact he will be able to get that deal from a team he can easily make an instant contender, believe me he will get it on the grounds he passes a physical.

In my opinion, Brand, somewhat undersized or not is one of the most complete and versatil big men in the league on both ends of the floor, he has just been stuck on untalented, injury prone teams most of his career.
He was a beast in the playoffs.

Brand is the 3rd best PF in the game behind Duncan and KG.
Better than Amare, Dwight, Gasol, JO, Boozer, Al Jeff, Bosh and even Dirk. Quote it.
Brand isn't better than Dirk - nor has he ever been better than Dirk.

Dwight is definitely better than him now - and Amare arguably is better than him.
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Post#9 » by halfHAVOC » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:43 am

etopn23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Brand isn't better than Dirk - nor has he ever been better than Dirk.

Dwight is definitely better than him now - and Amare arguably is better than him.


dirk is a Pu$$y , hes not a POST PLAYER he plays like he thinks hes a shooting gaurd. BRAND is better in the post , on offense and defense, and how is dwight better? just because he can block shots and dunk? he has NO POST GAME.....amare doesn't either.

you wont find many guys with a sick post game like elton brand. hes needs a scenario change and end up on a good team and you will see how good he really can be.

BRAND is EASILY the best bigman after Duncan KG and prolly Yao.
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Post#10 » by etopn23 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:52 am

halfHAVOC wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



dirk is a Pu$$y , hes not a POST PLAYER he plays like he thinks hes a shooting gaurd. BRAND is better in the post , on offense and defense, and how is dwight better? just because he can block shots and dunk? he has NO POST GAME.....amare doesn't either.

you wont find many guys with a sick post game like elton brand. hes needs a scenario change and end up on a good team and you will see how good he really can be.

BRAND is EASILY the best bigman after Duncan KG and prolly Yao.
Havoc are you serious? Dirk had lead his team to a top 3 record in the West the last 4 years in a row. He's been an MVP and has been in the top 5 in MVP voting nearly perennially in that span. Not only does he have team success/personal accolades that put him over Brand as a player - Dirk statistically absolutely has dominated this comparison. From Per-Winshares it's a clean sweep.

Forget comparing Brand to Dirk, comparing Yao to Dirk in itself is an insult.

Dirk is a much, much, much more dangerous player than Brand. As in he's on another tier than Brand. For all the hate he receives, he's undoubtedly on the same tier as Duncan/KG.

Howard is the superior defensive player, rebounder, and more efficient on the offensive end. Brand has a larger offensive repertoire - that's it.

Amare IMO is better than Brand. He's easily the more dangerous scorer. No contest. I've never seen Brand be as dominant as Amare in 04-05 and this season.
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Post#11 » by vincecarter4pres » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:19 am

I don't agree with this.
Brand is better.
And I mentioned Dirk last cause he is probrably the 4th best.
I forgot about Yao, but he is always getting injured.
Dirk has been on teams with extreme talent surrounding him every year the Mavs have been succesful, you cannot say the same for Brand, although you can for Amare, JO and Boozer in their succesful seasons.
On top of this Dirks teams have not done a lot in the playoffs.
Best record in the league, beat by the 8 seed.
Made it to the finals and were robbed, but they blew the big series lead themselves, they were only robbed during the last game.
Bosh is nice, but he is a face up guy, and can't compare.
Brand doesn't get recognition because he is a lunch pale guy, but he is a consistant 20 and 10 PF, 2.5 bpg, a steal and change, like 3 assists, shoots a great percentage from the field and the free throw line, has limited TOs, and is in general a truly good defender.
He makes his teammates better and you can run an offense through him.
He has a ridiculous post game, a reliable jumper out to 16 feet or so and doesn't have a big ego, but yet he plays with a chip on his shoulder.
He doesn't get the accolades a lot of other players and the big name 4/5's get, but believe me he is better than most of them.
Dwight and Al Jeff don't compare yet.
Maybe one day they will, but not yet.
You are relying way to heavy on numbers.
You can truly argue for Dirk and maybe, maybe Amare, but none of the others compare, and this is coming from a huge Gasol fan.
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Post#12 » by vincecarter4pres » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:27 am

etopn23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Brand isn't better than Dirk - nor has he ever been better than Dirk.

Dwight is definitely better than him now - and Amare arguably is better than him.


And I guess you are also saying Dwight is better then Amare? And Boozer? Even Yao?
I'm not sure if Dwight is better then Bosh right now, and he barely edges Gasol if not being on an even level with him.

You are out of your mind.

I already said, you can legitamtely argue for Dirk being the 3rd best, I can see that. My opinion is he's 4th best, but you are entitled to your own opinion.
I also agree Amare is almost on the same tier, almost, as Brand then Gasol, Boozer, Yao, a healthy JO and perhaps Bosh are close to the upper echelon as well.
But truly as gifted and good as Amare is, and as dominant as he has proven he can be, he is a system player. He would still be a beast without Nash and D'antoni, but he would not be held in the same regard as guys like Duncan, Dirk, KG and in my and many others' opinion Brand.
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Post#13 » by halfHAVOC » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:30 am

etopn23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Havoc are you serious? Dirk had lead his team to a top 3 record in the West the last 4 years in a row. He's been an MVP and has been in the top 5 in MVP voting nearly perennially in that span. Not only does he have team success/personal accolades that put him over Brand as a player - Dirk statistically absolutely has dominated this comparison. From Per-Winshares it's a clean sweep.

Forget comparing Brand to Dirk, comparing Yao to Dirk in itself is an insult.

Dirk is a much, much, much more dangerous player than Brand. As in he's on another tier than Brand. For all the hate he receives, he's undoubtedly on the same tier as Duncan/KG.

Howard is the superior defensive player, rebounder, and more efficient on the offensive end. Brand has a larger offensive repertoire - that's it.

Amare IMO is better than Brand. He's easily the more dangerous scorer. No contest. I've never seen Brand be as dominant as Amare in 04-05 and this season.


you forgot the mention


Brand is on one of the worst franchise's in the NBA. ( no help )

The Los Angeles Clippers.

/ discussion.
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Post#14 » by etopn23 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:02 am

[quote="vincecarter4pres"][/quote]Did I say Dwight is better than Yao and the rest? No. I said he's superior to Brand. All those players you listed are superior to Brand IMO. I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth.

Dwight IMO is clearly better than Brand. As far as rebounding/D Howard has the edge - as far as points scored in bulk Brand has the edge. When you take into account efficiency, Brand looses that edge considerably. Brand isn't a great big passer (i.e Webber/Shaq); dunno why you're trying to argue that's a substantial part of his game.

There's more than numbers that points to Dwight being the superior player. There's team success, there's the fact that he's going to receive more MVP votes this season than Brand has received in all the years of his career combined.... Dwight is the superior player.

Dwight is superior to Bosh right now. Lol. Do I really need to prove this?

There is no way Dirk isn't better than any 4 not named Garnett or Duncan in this league. Statistically, achievement wise, team success... everything. There is no substantial argument you could make to claim Brand is on Dirk's level.

You're going to argue his team is what made him have so much success? I remember people saying the Mav's days as contenders were over after Fin got old and Nash wasn't resigned. The main reason they've achieved this level of success is because of Dirk.

Dirk's team hasn't done alot in the playoffs? He's had more playoff success than 95% of the players in this league. Multiple WCF appearances, a run to the finals... he's succeeded more than anyone not named Duncan in this league at his position as far as the playoffs are concerned. People try to label him as a choker, but based on his numbers he's been a great playoff performer for the majority of his career. Someone on the PC board actually proved that Dirk statistically has even outperformed Kobe Bryant in the past 4 years in the playoffs.

As for Amare - he has clearly been more dominant than Brand has when he's been healthy. In 04-05 he eclipsed Brand offensively; I remember him dominating Duncan in the playoffs. Something that not many players could accomplish. This year his help D has progressed astronomically... Factor in his offense and Amare has the edge.

What has Elton Brand ever done to be compared to Dirk? Let alone Dirk, he hasn't even accomplished anything that puts him over players like Amare/Howard.

This is just getting redundant anyways.. someone should make a thread on the PC board - maybe Tsherkin/Palmer could come up w/ better reasons than me.
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Post#15 » by etopn23 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:03 am

halfHAVOC wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



you forgot the mention


Brand is on one of the worst franchise's in the NBA. ( no help )

The Los Angeles Clippers.

/ discussion.
Howard/Dirk/Amare were in the same boat for awhile too. Look what they did with their teams. Especially Dirk.
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Post#16 » by aussienet » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:45 am

VC4P see how things get out of hand so quickly? yes your entitled to your opinion but i and perhaps alot of other people think you overated and underated some players. Not gonna go there as that was not what we were discussing.
Any way back to brand. If he passes his physical (i would assume he would) then RJ's salary at 13.2 mill Boone 1.3 mill plus the number 9 pick at 2.5 ish???? that's 17mill starting with the normal 10% pay increase at the max seven years your looking at a 162 mill seven year contract. :o
Are we prepared, heck is anyone prepared to pay that? seeing he will be 35 in his final year and making 30 mill in his last year of the contract. I'm happy to give him like i said earlier start at 15 mill over 5 years worth just over 90 mill if he wants start at 17 mill will give him just over 100 mill over five years. That's the deal I'm happy with.
I hope my math and under standing of the salary cap is right. Will gladly stand corrected if not.
But would gladly do a deal of RJ,boone and 10 or 9 for brand
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mavs pick Def gotta be a shooter or 3man

I like it.

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Post#17 » by jerseyjac » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:24 pm

as I've said I'm on board for a Brand trade...as far as JO...he's not an option at this point and in no way am I giving up RJ to get an injury plagued PF...

Brand has rehabed well from what I hear...I would highly consider a trade for him...
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Post#18 » by FGump » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:55 pm

JO should be available. For the past 2 years, I've said very consistently that the Nets should do "whatever it takes" to get either JO or Gasol.

But now? Now I think you look elsewhere. The "window" that Kidd provided is closed, this team needs to build for the future, and it's the wrong direction to grab a superior interior player on the backside of his career.

This summer move VC for younger talent, and ideally a young C or PF. Build around Harris, RJ, and whichever other youngsters can step up. The future is a couple years away, and that's where the assets needs to be spent.

Brand? We have no reason to believe Brand is available.

Now in the seemingly impossible scenario that you could get Brand, you gotta go for it, but I don't see the Clippers making that trade. If they would, however, I'd do VC and Marcus, or VC and a young big (Boone, WIlliams, or even Krstic) in a flash.
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Post#19 » by S.I.C. GM » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:13 pm

FGump wrote:JO should be available. For the past 2 years, I've said very consistently that the Nets should do "whatever it takes" to get either JO or Gasol.

But now? Now I think you look elsewhere. The "window" that Kidd provided is closed, this team needs to build for the future, and it's the wrong direction to grab a superior interior player on the backside of his career.

This summer move VC for younger talent, and ideally a young C or PF. Build around Harris, RJ, and whichever other youngsters can step up. The future is a couple years away, and that's where the assets needs to be spent.

Brand? We have no reason to believe Brand is available.

Now in the seemingly impossible scenario that you could get Brand, you gotta go for it, but I don't see the Clippers making that trade. If they would, however, I'd do VC and Marcus, or VC and a young big (Boone, WIlliams, or even Krstic) in a flash.


Thank You Gump.
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Post#20 » by vincecarter4pres » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:27 pm

S.I.C. GM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Thank You Gump.


This team is going to be absolutely herendous without VC.

I don't know, I want to win it now, but being realistic, unless we pull off some kind of Boston/Phoenix thing it's not gonna happen.
So, truthfully, I would rather have a fun to watch, competitive team, that wins 44-48 games a year and makes the playoffs every year until we go to Brooklyn. Pretty much a team like we have now. Try to move up in the draft, while keeping our core together, and hope these guys pan out for the future, and even immediately.
Then when VC and RJ come off the books we will have money to sign a big time FA or 2 just in time for Brooklyn. We could then, if we wanted, resign RJ and or VC to a fair contract for an older star that can still produce, ala a Finley, Stackhouse or Grant Hill.
And I am not one of the, "we are getting Lebron" guys. I think we could, but alot of people think its a given.
I would love Lebron here, and although very realistic, just for money through marketing purposes, I think he will stay in Cleveland. Although is they don't win a championship by then, you never know.

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