RealGM

Guy's all this talk about trades and how good we are going and how good we could get are spread out over about 4 threads so i thought i would start this one to give all my answers and you can bash away.

First things first. DH is playing out of his mind right now (can it last?) VC is riding his coat tails and getting his.
Remember this! We are in a rebuild people! For all the love that people have for VC right now it's time to take off those rose coloured glasses and look at the big picture.

All VC is doing is pushing up his trade value thats what Thorn want's. For us to get better long term VC is the one to move on.

Don't get sucked in to the VC love fest. VC is fools gold. Yes he is playing well at the moment. Why? Because there is no pressure to win, no expectations from fans or from front office. The minute we trade for a player to put us into contention i promise the old injury prone defer on offence VC will be back.

Now i;m not a VC hater. I love his athletiscm i love his ability to play this great game. But it's the mental side that I can't stand. Look at what happened when the raptors put a decent support cast around him. They and him crumbled. He comes to us and cos he wan'ts to prove a point he gives us a glimpse of what he can do and he drags us to the play-offs. Then when expectations are high The big three implode. Jkidd new he wasn't gonna win a titl with VC (and he screwed up big time thinking Dirk would and i said that when he got traded)

No Thorn has been down that path with VC in the big three. VC will be involved in a three team deal that will get us a young stud or a lottery pick and VC will go to a contender.

Its a long season and we are only 16 games in. With technically 4 rookies (including Yi) on our roster we will hit the rookie wall and fold like a house of cards. I say just sit back relax and enjoy the ride.

It will be interesting to see if I'm right. I have been locked away scouring nba teams and trying to think like Thorn and come up with a trade scenario that's suits us best.

Cheers

P.S Enjoy VC, Marvel at VC but don't ever ever love VC he will burn you.

Maybe the big 3 didn't do too well because J Kidd was an arrogant, pompous hand job that can only do good when he has a defensive fast breaking team around him where he dominates the ball 95% of the time he is on the court?

Maybe it was because RJ stopped rebounding and playing defense and cutting and slashing.
Maybe cause Opie utilizedf him and everyone on the roster wrong?

Maybe it was because of all the major injuries to key players?

Maybe it's because Rod used patchwork, one year rentals of castoff has beens as impact role players through FA because Ratner wouldn't spend the full MLE on guys we needed?

Maybe it's because we never had a post presence?

Maybe it's because we never had a really good coach?

And what good team did Toronto assemble around Toronto before they crumbled?

Maybe it was VC's fault Toronto crumbled?

Maybe it's VC's fault Toronto still has a professional NBA team instead of it being moved to Memphis?

Maybe?






Post Edited.

Be easy...that was pushing it.

- Rich

I'm against trading VC unless there's a knockout deal on the table, meaning Vince for someone like Wally Crappyback and a Cavs 1st rounder or Vince for any other crappy expiring is going to get shot down by me.

I don't ever want the Nets to be like the Thunder, with the current setup I feel confident that the young guys are developing the right way and picking up good habits from veterans who care it might not get us the most lottery balls but trading away all of your good players for crap(py expirings) just makes the rebuilding process take even longer (look at how long it took the Hawks to rebuild when they didn't have any solid veteran players to show their young guys the way, and like I mentioned above look at the Thunder...).

Trading VC at the end of the year or at the trade deadline next year is something I'd definitely consider but I think we should play this season out as is, with the only trade (if any) being to ship out Maurice Ager and a big man for a wing player we can include in the rebuilding process...

VC4P, I'm enjoying the good start we have made and am a rabid nets fan. Just trying to be realistic is all. I'm sure but don't quote me that the raptors built a solid team not sure when Mo Pete . Oakley are names that com to mind not contenders I know but expectation were high and that's my point.

As the resident VC 'fanboy' I have to respond to this:

aussienet wrote:First things first. DH is playing out of his mind right now (can it last?) VC is riding his coat tails and getting his.

How is VC riding on Devin's coat tails ? Explain please.
23.8 / 4.3 / 4.9 @ 0.484% , shooting 0.423 from 3 & currently 9th in scoring. If anything the two guys are complimenting each others game. Neither guy needs a great passer to set them up for scoring opportunities - they need someone else to take the scoring burden off & that's what each does for the other. They also make it difficult for teams to shift defenses against to just Devin or VC & allow for the spread / iso offense to work.

aussienet wrote:Remember this! We are in a rebuild people! For all the love that people have for VC right now it's time to take off those rose coloured glasses and look at the big picture.

Like NetsForce said in this thread & I have mentioned several times a rebuilding team needs good leadership & when VC finally provides this (arguably first time in his career post-Kidd trade) you want to get rid of him ? Devin has been great but he's also relatively young. The burden of leadership is on VC & he's done everything you want from a leader since the Kidd trade. You can't have a bunch of young guys learning about the NBA (inside & outside of the game) from each other - it's just asking for bad habits on / off the court.

aussienet wrote:All VC is doing is pushing up his trade value thats what Thorn want's. For us to get better long term VC is the one to move on.

As a VC fan & having happliy followed the Nets since he came to them I really don't want him to leave (unless he miraculously goes back to T.O.). It kinda irks me that fans want team loyalty from the players but some fans just want to use VC as a stop gap for 2010 or until he shows the first sign of declining....seems like a bit of hypocrisy to me.

aussienet wrote:Don't get sucked in to the VC love fest. VC is fools gold. Yes he is playing well at the moment. Why? Because there is no pressure to win, no expectations from fans or from front office. The minute we trade for a player to put us into contention i promise the old injury prone defer on offence VC will be back.

This is pretty much BS & speculation. He's been playing well for the moment ? He's been pretty damn good his whole time w/ the Nets. Hasn't been perfect & there have been many a game where I was infuriated with his play but you can say that about any player - his time with the Nets has been very productive. The "expectations" things is BS too....when he first came to the Nets & played out of his mind people said see he needs to play with Kidd to play well, he's not good enough...but then when he plays well w/o Kidd now it's he's playing well because there are no expectations...he can't win either way then.

You also forget to mention in pre-season VC said this was a playoff team (seems like he has higher expectations then most pundits on what the Nets could do). He put pressure on himself & his team when it could have been easy for him to take the excuses the pundits were giving on how bad this team would be.

Also how has he been injury prone with the Nets ? He had a season where he played 82 games, he played on a bum ankle since game 6 from last year even when the Nets were out of the playoffs - he's had 79 game season also...fact is he's barely missed anytime with the Nets.

Defer on offense ? He's doing that this year & why is that a bad thing ? He's a team player. You want him to play like Crawford & Marbury & keep on jacking up shots - then you can criticize him for hogging the ball or freezing the offense I'm sure...it's one of the reasons why he is a great teammate. He passes to rooks/vets alike, if your open he will give you an opportunity to make a shot (I've read people criticize Wade for not sharing the ball enough because he doesn't trust his teammates...). Again whatever he does in this regard the critics will pounce....too unselfish / too selfish.

aussienet wrote:Now i;m not a VC hater. I love his athletiscm i love his ability to play this great game. But it's the mental side that I can't stand. Look at what happened when the raptors put a decent support cast around him. They and him crumbled. He comes to us and cos he wan'ts to prove a point he gives us a glimpse of what he can do and he drags us to the play-offs. Then when expectations are high The big three implode. Jkidd new he wasn't gonna win a titl with VC (and he screwed up big time thinking Dirk would and i said that when he got traded)

Wait, what ? When did the Raptors put a decent supporting cast around him ? I've followed the Raptors since before Day 1 & during VC's tenure there one can argue the best player he played with was Antonio Davis (Bosh obviously grew beyond that). The best team VC had was with Alvin Williams/Antonio Davis/Charles Oakley, etc & that was a tough/defensive minded team that put alot of burden on VC for offense & post Raptors career many of them retired or were done as NBA players - that should tell you something. VC never had a 'decent' supporting cast & that was one of his frustrations (and before anyone gets into it - yes he was completely in the wrong to ask for a trade). Was VC part of the problem with the underachieving 'big 3'...of course he was but so was Kidd/RJ & coaches/management....it was high expectations based on name recognition but their styles butted heads with one another & there were failures to get a more balanced roster from the frontcourt to the bench. It's far too simplistic to put blame on VC or Kidd or whomever...it was a variety of reasons for the failures of the 'big 3' teams.

I understand it's a business and if a knockout deal comes along that makes the Nets future even brighter then go for it - but now of all times to downplay VC's contribution to the growth/development of these young guys including Devin is perplexing. Me i've come to enjoy this Nets franchise and I want to watch VC with them until he retires - I know some of the posters here will hate that i'm a 'bandwagoner' but I'm just putting out my perspective.

No offense meant on the above - just find it really odd to share this post now (3-1 west coast trip, good record, highest scoring backcourt, overachieving, etc). I was waiting for a back-to-back game where Vince sucked before this came out - or maybe it's the sudden emergence of Devin that made this come out...just odd to me.

I never said when to trade him but Netsforce idea of timing for trading VC I agree with.

BOTC, I'm not backing down from what I said. These are my thoughts on VC. Your points are very well made and we could go back and forth all day. When I said injury prone that was a stretch what i should of said was how he flops on the floor like he's just been shot. Yeah he comes back and plays out the game probably because nothing was wrong with him in the first place.

In regards to Devon, VC is enjoying playing second fiddle while Devon goes to work. I want my 16 mil superstar taking and making the big shot's yes he did it against Toronto but there are 81 other games.

I know i sound negative against VC I actually like him a lot.

I just tried to make a few points in regards to all these trade ideas that put us into contention. I just don't think VC will be part of our future plans.

But I will enjoy watching him play for us while we still have him. Everyone has a love hate relationship with this guy. And it's his own fault

^^Actually he had a pretty good supporting cast when they played against the sixers I think it was 2001 that's when i'm a huge VC fan when they had antonio davis charles oakley jerome williams Mo peterson and Alvin williams....that was a pretty good team...

As for aussienet's comment... Devin Harris is not playing out of his mind at all. This is the REAL deal...It is not like he is chucking up shots and doing crazy lucky plays he is playing very smart and using his whole talent to use. He drives in when needs to, he takes his pull up jumper at the when the opposing defender think he will drive, he only shoots 3s when he is open, he passes the ball at the right time ,etc. The fact is The Nets is made for DH All the players perfectly compliment's him.

As for VC I gotta say he has been taking better shots than what he did the last 2 years however, i'm not saying he didn't play well at that time. I'm saying he is being a better leader this year. That's the reason why he is playing so well because he is the main leader now unlike last year when Kidd was here.

I don't think we should be trading VC for picks I think we should trade him for proven players that can get us better for the future. The nets have too many young players that still needs work. I think we should be focusing on them. Like Yi, Brook, CDR, Sean Williams. its too many.

*sighs*

I'll co-sign everything that BOTC said... Will only say this - VC when all is said and done this year will average around 26PPG (my prediction) Riding the coattails of Devin? Not hardly. They're complementing each others games brilliantly. VC is the unselfish superstar many other players would love to have on their team. Devin wouldn't be scoring like he is, if it wasn't for the presence of VC on the court; the same can be said for VC's percentages because of Devin's penetration and actually having another consistent threat on offense.

That "stacked" Toronto team in 2001 was filled with a bunch of aging, injury prone guys who were far past their prime (besides Mo-Pete) ... who is the only person left playing in the NBA and doesn't make much of an impact. VC carried that team his whole tenure there. Antonio Davis was the next big threat, unless you count Doug Christie in that mix.

I too have followed VC his WHOLE NBA career, have always said he needs to be surrounded by players who can make shots consistently and ease the pressure he faces. You're seeing he benefits of players such as Harris, Hayes, Yi (occasionally) and Lopez is probably the biggest post threat he's had throughout his career and he's a rookie. Bosh and VC didn't really get on the same page when they were together.

VC is showing how great of a teammate he is, how much of a leader he can be, and to respond to the comment about "81 other games" VC has hit timely clutch shots in MANY games this year already, as well as previous years while being in NJ. He's been nothing but spectacular to this team and management, proving most of his critics wrong; stay tuned, he's not done.

Ok so Devon is playing out of my mind. I never expected consistant high scoring for him. As for riding devon's coat tails as negative as it sounds I actually didn't mean it like that. I agree they are complimenting each other.

48%, 42% from 3. No other high scoring shooting guard is having those type of numbers. He is playing smart basketball, being a leader on the team and deferring to a red hot Devin when need be, and taking over games when he has to. You can't ask for anymore. That attitude you question has not been a problem for the last 5 years. Only Toronto fans bring that up.

48%, 42% from 3. No other high scoring shooting guard is having those type of numbers. He is playing smart basketball, being a leader on the team and deferring to a red hot Devin when need be, and taking over games when he has to. You can't ask for anymore. That attitude you question has not been a problem for the last 5 years. Only Toronto fans bring that up.

crazykidd2k6 wrote:I don't think we should be trading VC for picks I think we should trade him for proven players that can get us better for the future. The nets have too many young players that still needs work. I think we should be focusing on them. Like Yi, Brook, CDR, Sean Williams. its too many.

Wrong. Why trade VC for a proven player? VC IS ALREADY THE PROVEN PLAYER. What more do you want from him? If the management really wants to go in a different direction, then trade him to get higher lottery picks and more expirings. I believe that if you want to trade a player like VC right now, with the way he's been playing, only means one thing... Gamble and hope that the team will be able to get a young stud from the draft because they will be cheap and, of course, the POTENTIAL. We are in the rebuilding mode so the lottery draft will be one of the reasons why if they trade him, his age and 2010 will be a big part of it as well. But why trade him? The Rooks are learning a lot from him and so is DH. Without VC, DH will have a hard time too. VC is still the man! (although i love DH) =)

Birth of the Cool wrote:He passes to rooks/vets alike, if your open he will give you an opportunity to make a shot (I've read people criticize Wade for not sharing the ball enough because he doesn't trust his teammates...). Again whatever he does in this regard the critics will pounce....too unselfish / too selfish.

Great point. To be honest... VC is our best PG, not DH and not Dooling. If you will define a PG like the way Stockton played it, VC is the best in our team. Dooling is more of a SG imo, many times Brook, Yi, Anderson and even SWill had been opened cutting but not even once i've seen him pass the ball. I dont know if he just doesn't see it or he's slow or he's just looking to score more, i just dont get his game. Harris without a doubt is getting better at it, he just needs to be more consistent and needs to work harder on it. If Paul, JKidd and Stockton can pass the ball, play great defense including steals and score a lot of points in a game on a consistent basis, there's no reason for DH to not be able to do the same thing, he is faster and i feel he's stronger. If he's able to do it consistently, then sky's the limit, only a bad game or "one of those days" game will give him trouble.
If only VC is an NBA PG, he will get more assists and will be a better play making PG than some of the starting PGs in the League.

Everyone is making excellent points good thread. Its been very exciting to watch VC and DH work together, but I think aussienet has a point about VC not being part of the future of this team. VC has some age on him and the next two years we are not winning a title so by the time we land a solid free agent in 2010 and our team develops VC probably won't be worth his salary. He'll just be an older slower jump shooter that plays poor defense. Does that mean we should go out and trade VC at the deadline for quick cap relief. No. I think we need to see this play out. Not because I think we can win anything but more for the development of the rooks. Yi and Lopez especially are benifiting from from the back court play. Team are focusing on our backcourt and they are getting open looks and growing on their confidence and winning attitude which are two important parts to developing young players. Unless some team (as dumb as Dallas) comes along and blows us out of the water for VC I think we need to play this year out.

I disagree with almost everything aussienet said, it reads like the sort of BS most raptor fans have to say about Vince. I'm not saying vince shouldn't be traded, for the right deal anyone is expendable, but you didn't list one good reason why we should trade him in that entire post bruh.

VC will be involved in a three team deal that will get us a young stud or a lottery pick and VC will go to a contender.

This is the only thing you said that I can give a thumbs up on. I believe this will happen at some point just because of the direction the team is going in (rebuilding/youth movement). If the nets can get some quality young pieces/draft picks for vince and also give him a chance to play for a title somewhere, that'd be great. But all the BS criticisms you spouted about Vince just don't ring true anymore.

For real who cares about the rebuild? The Nets are playing great basketball right now and if they continue to do so there is no need to trade any of our main pieces before the trade deadline. You are going to sit here and tell me that if the Nets are playing quality basketball and can go deep into the playoffs you would sacrifice that because we need to rebuild for 2010? Are you stupid? The point of playing the game is to WIN. If the Nets are winning then you dont fix what isnt broken. And since everyone is so high on the 2010 free agent class and creating cap space dont you think that if VC is playing great on a quality team then we can get a GREAT deal for him? If trading him is unavoidable you wait until after the season to do it because he will be vital if we make the playoffs. I am against this whole rebuild nonsense its like teams that tank the season to get a high draft pick. If you have the ability to win now then do it! And people wonder why the Nets never sell out any games.

Revolutionistt wrote:For real who cares about the rebuild? The Nets are playing great basketball right now and if they continue to do so there is no need to trade any of our main pieces before the trade deadline. You are going to sit here and tell me that if the Nets are playing quality basketball and can go deep into the playoffs you would sacrifice that because we need to rebuild for 2010? Are you stupid? The point of playing the game is to WIN. If the Nets are winning then you dont fix what isnt broken. And since everyone is so high on the 2010 free agent class and creating cap space dont you think that if VC is playing great on a quality team then we can get a GREAT deal for him? If trading him is unavoidable you wait until after the season to do it because he will be vital if we make the playoffs. I am against this whole rebuild nonsense its like teams that tank the season to get a high draft pick. If you have the ability to win now then do it! And people wonder why the Nets never sell out any games.

I agree with this. I find it funny, WE ARE REBUILDING, yet because we're winning, people don't consider it a rebuild. Half our team is under 25 years old. If you look at our roster and don't see the word "rebuild" stamped on it, you need your head examined.

What I think people are concerned about is that we all wanted a lottery pick this year. Newsflash, if GSW makes the playoffs in the 10-11 season, we'll have 5 draft picks over the next 3 years. If there was a stud in next year's draft that Thorn and Kiki wanted more than life itself (see: my boy from Arizona State), trust me, we'd get him with a package of either Sean or Josh along with 2-3 of those picks (at this point most will be mid-late firsts which is why we'd have to give a few). But regardless, we have the assets. We honestly cannot believe we'll use all those picks so this is what I'm predicting the Nets will do in either this draft or the 2010 draft. That would give us a potential stud in every position not occupied by a player named Devin Harris.

And guess what, in that scenario, we'd be one small move again (i.e. buying out Najera) from having the cap room for a max free agent. Trading Vince right now for an expiring really would only be an option if we thought we could land 2 max players in the next season or two. Hate to say it, even with us being close to NYC and the move to brooklyn now pushed back to the start of the 11-12 season, we are not gonna get 2 max players in the next 2 years. Vince can still ball. Having Devin, Brook and Yi anchoring the offense could actually extend his productivity to possibly last his entire contract.

I know I'm rambling, but we DID go through a full rebuild this offseason. We are playing better than anyone expected. Vince is not a problem right now. Unless someone bowls us over with an offer for him, there is absolutely no reason to make a major move on this team. We can trim the roster and make minor tweaks, but right now, Thorn and Kiki look like geniuses to most of the league.

Also, the Nets with Vince on the roster will have a lot of cap room come 2010. Its not like they need Vince off the team to lure a free agent here. Imagine if they can get a guy like Amare to Jersey. Vince will only be 33, DH still in his 20s. Guys like Lopez, Anderson and CDR will be better players. That team is going to be very scary.

Guy's some great posts and points. Its great to see some spirited debate.

I just want you all to know that i was trying to put perspective into our season. Look back at our pre-season posts to a man almost 80-85% of us predicting gloom for us this season some predicting (hoping?) for a top 5 pick. Now we have a decent start and most of us wanna "go deep" in the play-offs WTF??? I mean make up your mind!

Yes I was harsh on VC but also realistic. Yes VC may play 75-80 games a season. but how many will the real VC rock up to? That's my point guy's

Yes we a playing hard and good team ball but isn't that what they are paid to do?

I love the nets. Have since DC's rookie year (when i was a teenager!) I want nothing more than long term success for this franchise.


I NEVER ONCE SAID HE WAS TO GO TODAY, TOMORROW OR TRADE DEADLINE. He just will go. Call it gut instict. Call VC hating. Call it what you like. but i am calling it.

Like i said I enjoy watching him play. I marvel at what he does. But he lacks that killer, rip out your heart and make you it watch beat before you die, instict.

As long as Vince gets his stats and we have another guy that wants to murder people on the court (see: Devin Harris), I'm fine. Do I agree that I think the Nets will sell Vince at his highest and completely fleece somebody? If they could, I'm sure they would, but I'm just enjoying the moment right now. As long as we don't make a rash move with him, I'm fine with moving him. But again, you never know, we may never move him at the rate we're going now. We got a bunch of hungry young kids and a PG with a chip on his shoulder. I'm sticking with what we got right now. As me this question again at the deadline though cause my answer may change if their is a struggling fringe playoff team with a young stud I like.

Lol I just said "I'm just enjoying the moment right now." How many other sports fans could say that when their team is 9-7?

after tonights game - give me C. Butler, B. Haywood (yes I know he's hurt) and Dee for VC and SWAT