We could have just signed

[Griff83]

Martin Gerber or Manny Legace when they were free agents.

Gerber

.943 sv %
1.75 goals GAA

Legace

.913 sv %
2.33 GAA

Instead over the past 2 offseasons we have traded away Tuuka Rask, first round pick, second round pick and a 4th round pick. We traded away a ton of picks/youth for two average goalies and all we have to show for it today is a mediocre at best team, while we could have just signed one of the two goalies mentioned above and still have Rask(potential franchise goalie) and a top 15 pick.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

Martin Gerber or Manny Legace when they were free agents.

Gerber

.943 sv %
1.75 goals GAA

Legace

.913 sv %
2.33 GAA

Instead over the past 2 offseasons we have traded away Tuuka Rask, first round pick, second round pick and a 4th round pick. We traded away a ton of picks/youth for two average goalies and all we have to show for it today is a mediocre at best team, while we could have just signed one of the two goalies mentioned above and still have Rask(potential franchise goalie) and a top 15 pick.

There are any number of reasons, why we didn't get Gerber or Legace, when they were free agents. Gerber I think, he wanted to go with an established contender and so signed with Ottawa because he would have been a number 1 goalie on a pretty good team, I'm not sure why we didn't go after Legace but there may have been underlying reasons...

Rask is a different story, I too thought this was a boneheaded move and as it has turned out, very prophetic, we did however need a number 1 goalie but should have looked at other opportunities like free agency...

[Griff83]

-= original quote snipped =-



There are any number of reasons, why we didn't get Gerber or Legace, when they were free agents. Gerber I think, he wanted to go with an established contender and so signed with Ottawa because he would have been a number 1 goalie on a pretty good team, I'm not sure why we didn't go after Legace but there may have been underlying reasons...

Rask is a different story, I too thought this was a boneheaded move and as it has turned out, very prophetic, we did however need a number 1 goalie but should have looked at other opportunities like free agency...

what are the reasons that Legace wouldnt sign here? Because from what I heard he would have loved to come play in TO seeing he was from toronto.

Look at how cheaply all these goalies around the same skill level as Toskala and Raycroft are going for.

Biron for 2nd rounder
Bryzgalov can be had on waivers
Garon signed for cheap

[risktaker91]

Biron was a steal.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

We are not really on the inside on any deals and so who can say why we didn't sign a player. Biron would have been a good pick-up but would Buffalo trade him to us?...

In Gerber's case, last year they would have traded him for a bag of pucks, this year he is the second comming of you know who and John Muckler was responsible for bringing him to Ottawa but was let go because of that and other problems with management...

John Muckler would be a good replacement for JFJ in my opinion, he has lots of expirience and isn't afraid to pull the trigger, if he can rebuild the Leaf's the way he built the Senators, he would be a really good replacement...

[jalenrose#5]

This is all hearsay, but I do agree. There are so many other options but the Leafs always mortgage the future in turn for either proven/over the hill talent or untapped talent who they hope will excel in Toronto....highly doubtful.

I like the thought of Tlusty playing full time now, but I'm never a fan of trading young talent and draft picks. All the great teams draft incredibly well (DET Zetts/Lidstrom/Kronwall/Dats/Holmstrom) (NJ Brodeur/Parise/Martin/Niedermayer) (OTT Alfredsson/Redden/Mezaros/Emery/Fisher).

[Crowned]

The Raycroft trade was a bad one, yes.

However, you don't know what the market is like at any given time, for any positional player. If JFJ traded away a highly regarded prospect for a goaltender, then I could imagine what the market was like at the time, and perhaps the availability of goaltenders on the trade market.

Why wasn't Gerber's name mentioned last season? He wasn't 'recently' acquired by Ottawa. He's having a good season, so JFJ is at fault for not acquiring a goaltender with a hefty price tag that nobody wanted last year?

Martin Biron was traded several months after Raycroft was traded, and Byzgalov was placed on waivers today. What does that have to do with anything? We were supposed to wait around for the off chance that a goaltender was going to hit the waiver wire a year and a half after our starting goaltender was declined a contract extension (Belfour)?.

I'm not going to argue the Toskala trade, ever. I still stand by my original opinion that it was a good one. I don't care if Cherepanov or Esposito become the next Messier or Gretzky, half of the league passed on them for a reason. There's no guarantee that JFJ would've risked his selection and gone with one of them.

The Raycroft trade is in the past. We overpaid for the guy, and he hasn't been the same goaltender that we saw in Boston. There's no sense in discussing "we should've", "what if", "this goaltender is currently available" threads over a trade we completed rather far in the past.

[Griff83]

The Raycroft trade was a bad one, yes.

However, you don't know what the market is like at any given time, for any positional player. If JFJ traded away a highly regarded prospect for a goaltender, then I could imagine what the market was like at the time, and perhaps the availability of goaltenders on the trade market.

Why wasn't Gerber's name mentioned last season? He wasn't 'recently' acquired by Ottawa. He's having a good season, so JFJ is at fault for not acquiring a goaltender with a hefty price tag that nobody wanted last year?

Martin Biron was traded several months after Raycroft was traded, and Byzgalov was placed on waivers today. What does that have to do with anything? We were supposed to wait around for the off chance that a goaltender was going to hit the waiver wire a year and a half after our starting goaltender was declined a contract extension (Belfour)?.

I'm not going to argue the Toskala trade, ever. I still stand by my original opinion that it was a good one. I don't care if Cherepanov or Esposito become the next Messier or Gretzky, half of the league passed on them for a reason. There's no guarantee that JFJ would've risked his selection and gone with one of them.

The Raycroft trade is in the past. We overpaid for the guy, and he hasn't been the same goaltender that we saw in Boston. There's no sense in discussing "we should've", "what if", "this goaltender is currently available" threads over a trade we completed rather far in the past.

No your right I dont know what the exact market was for goalies at the time but its plainly obvious to most that JFJ went over the market value to get Raycroft. Rask's stock at the time was everrising so fast and Raycrofts value was horribly low coming off a bad year in Boston and a bad year over in europe prior to that. When he found out how high the market was for mediocre goalies he should have moved on and tried to find a comparable goalie elsewhere like Free Agency, not give into the fact the market was high and he desperately needed a tender.

Gerber's name was mentioned lots over the past year on other message boards and many people said they would rather have had him and his mediocre performance and his price tag then Raycroft who also gives you mediocre results but the difference being you didnt have to give up what was a top 10 prospect in the world at the time to get Gerber. Gerber was one example, but explain to me why Legace wasnt more sought after? The guy is from Toronto and was rumoured to be very interested in signing here that offseason. He's also a better goaltender then Andrew Raycroft.

Birons name was brought up along with others to show the trend of value given up for goalies over the past 2 or so years. Biron (2nd rounder) , Toskala who was coming off a good season unlike raycroft and was more proven was had at arguably the same cost. Tomas Vokoun who was also coming off a decent year and more proven then Raycroft was also had for around the same cost as Raycroft.

so if this team miss's the playoffs and Toskala only has a mediocre season, your still going to argue it was a good trade? What was the point of this trade if the team is no better now then it was before the trade?

[Crowned]

-= original quote snipped =-




so if this team miss's the playoffs and Toskala only has a mediocre season, your still going to argue it was a good trade? What was the point of this trade if the team is no better now then it was before the trade?

Toskala's weaker performances has come on the shoulders of our defense. Simply put, Toskala and Raycroft has been hung out to dry so far this season. I've seen very few "weak" goals from Toskala, and he's been exactly what I've expected.

If the Leafs had a half competent defensive core, he'd be looking like a star in between the pipes.

The Leafs have a much better team than they did last season, especially when everyone is healthy. They're an improved team based not only on their additions (Toskala and Blake), but the improvement of some of their players upfront. However, they've played poorly...enough to warrant some firings within the front office. If they can put it together, and become responsible in their own end, we'll be fine.

[Griff83]

-= original quote snipped =-




Toskala's weaker performances has come on the shoulders of our defense. Simply put, Toskala and Raycroft has been hung out to dry so far this season. I've seen very few "weak" goals from Toskala, and he's been exactly what I've expected.

If the Leafs had a half competent defensive core, he'd be looking like a star in between the pipes.

The Leafs have a much better team than they did last season, especially when everyone is healthy. They're an improved team based not only on their additions (Toskala and Blake), but the improvement of some of their players upfront. However, they've played poorly...enough to warrant some firings within the front office. If they can put it together, and become responsible in their own end, we'll be fine.

Thats the thing though, you can argue all you want that this team is better then that of last year (which may be true) but in relation to our position in the standings were still a borderline playoff team and right now on the outside looking in once again. If The Toskala trade doesnt make us a playoff team, I dont see how it can be considered a "good trade".

why has JFJ given up so much youth/picks for 2 goalies only to surround them with one of the worst defence cores in the league? not to mention the highest paid. When is it enough and we'll finally see this guy lose his job? He's sacrificed so much of what would have been a solid future and we're still left sitting here with a middle of the road mediocre at best team.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

-= original quote snipped =-
Toskala's weaker performances has come on the shoulders of our defense. Simply put, Toskala and Raycroft has been hung out to dry so far this season. I've seen very few "weak" goals from Toskala, and he's been exactly what I've expected.

If the Leafs had a half competent defensive core, he'd be looking like a star in between the pipes.

The Leafs have a much better team than they did last season, especially when everyone is healthy. They're an improved team based not only on their additions (Toskala and Blake), but the improvement of some of their players upfront. However, they've played poorly...enough to warrant some firings within the front office. If they can put it together, and become responsible in their own end, we'll be fine.

I agree with a lot of what you have said and I think the coaching is to blame for a lot of the miss cues, the team is out of position and as I stated in another thread, that when the other team pressures us down low in a flurry around the net, we seem never to pick up the man that becomes open and he gets a clear shot that goes in, hard to blame the goal tending but defense, is not only on the shoulders of the D but also on the back checking of the forwards.
When playing 5 on 5 everyone has an assigned player to check but we seem to have 2 or 3 players, checking one man coming from behind the net or out of the corner...

We do however have to move some large contracts at the deadline, because our hands are tied by having maxed out the cap, which in turn makes it difficult to even bring up players from our own farm team.
They are currently burning up the AHL and several players could be playing here but no contracts can be brought in, to bolster the line-up...

[emfive]

The mistakes made by these guys has nothing to do with coaching. No coach would recommend that players come back like they were on a picnic or leave their assignment to go help check a player who already had 2 players on him. No! The players need to pony up on this one.

The other contributing issue has been the goaltending. How many games has the team one on the basis of goaltending this season? (Ask the same question about the Habs and you will see a different response.) Stuff happens in every game and the goalie more often than not bails the team out. Goalies playing well anyway. When the players lose a little faith in the goal tending they do desperate things in order to stop a goal. For example trying to make a desperate play on someone already covered. It is a vicious circle.