Rumours thread

[Griff83]

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meh, i'm used to it. Nobody in this draft impressed me much. MAYBE Turris. But I still wouldn't take the chance on trading a nice 2 way player like Steen for him.

Next year or the year after i would though

Yep wouldnt want to trade a NICE two way player for a potential superstar . Steen doesnt have close to superstar potential like a player like Turris does. Can u tell me the last time this franchise has had a prospect of Turris's ilk(3rd overall) in its system? Sundin is gone in 1-2 years and this team has no player in its system to take the forefront of being a elite player and a guy like Turris would have been perfect for this franchise.

Sure the #2 pick could turn out to be a bust, but looking at the past 7 draft's or so the %'s are really in favor of that player turning into a great to potentially superstar player. Only reason why Ferguson junior wouldnt pull this trade is because his ass is on the line and most likely wont trade CURRENT nhl talent on his roster for prospects seeing they will take a few years to become of impact and if he doesnt get this team into the playoffs this year he's out of a job.

in saying noone impressed you in this draft besides Turris and you wouldnt deal Steen for him, your basically saying you wouldnt have dealt Steen if the blackhawks offered up the #1 overall pick.

[Griff83]

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Look out for the "you're a homer, you overrate Steen, you overrate the Leafs roster, you're crazy" comments

Crowned, how come you never answered my question if you would have traded Steen for the #2 overall pick?

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

Whether those deals existed or not, everyone see's Steen's potential and want him included in the package for any number of trades...

I don't like some of the deals JFJ has made but he has made a few good moves and getting Toskala was a good one. The deal for #2, if I remember correctly, at the time it was Steen and #13 for #2 and of course the Toskala Deal had already been made, so it negated any deal for Turris and that it was only thrown out as a rumor, that Lowe had made that offer anyway...

Every player can be traded, you only have to look at Wayne Gretzky or more recently Ryan Smyth and whether or not value was received for those players, is open to speculation but in the new NHL, cap and rising salaries are forcing teams to do strange things, in our eyes at least but we are not party to all the underlying factors...

[Griff83]

Whether those deals existed or not, everyone see's Steen's potential and want him included in the package for any number of trades...

I don't like some of the deals JFJ has made but he has made a few good moves and getting Toskala was a good one. The deal for #2, if I remember correctly, at the time it was Steen and #13 for #2 and of course the Toskala Deal had already been made, so it negated any deal for Turris and that it was only thrown out as a rumor, that Lowe had made that offer anyway...
Every player can be traded, you only have to look at Wayne Gretzky or more recently Ryan Smyth and whether or not value was received for those players, is open to speculation but in the new NHL, cap and rising salaries are forcing teams to do strange things, in our eyes at least but we are not party to all the underlying factors...

Well according to Crowned, it wasnt #13 and Steen for Turris and just a straight up one for one swap. I think you mean Holmgren, not Lowe putting the offer out there. I believe me and you are right that it was a Steen plus pick for #2 offer because that makes alot more sense from a Philadelphia standpoint then giving up a #2 pick for a player who doesnt even have superstar potential and to this point has shown to be just a good player and had a rather underwhelming 2nd season, certainly not a player you trade away a possible franchise changer for.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

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Well according to Crowned, it wasnt #13 and Steen for Turris and just a straight up one for one swap. I think you mean Holmgren, not Lowe putting the offer out there. I believe me and you are right that it was a Steen plus pick for #2 offer because that makes alot more sense from a Philadelphia standpoint then giving up a #2 pick for a player who doesnt even have superstar potential and to this point has shown to be just a good player and had a rather underwhelming 2nd season, certainly not a player you trade away a possible franchise changer for.

Ya your right Holmgren but as I mentioned we don't have all the facts and The number of rumors out there is incredible, for any single good rumor there are 50 bad ones (no go's)...

This is not to say Steen is not a very good player and he just experienced a slump this past year. This coming year he could shoot the lights out and he has the potential to do so...

[Griff83]

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Ya your right Holmgren but as I mentioned we don't have all the facts and The number of rumors out there is incredible, for any single good rumor there are 50 bad ones (no go's)...

This is not to say Steen is not a very good player and he just experienced a slump this past year. This coming year he could shoot the lights out and he has the potential to do so...

The rumour came from Dregar and McKenzie who are about 2 of the most reliable sources in the NHL. Sure Steen could come back and score 30 goals this season and he has the potential to one day be a 35 goal scorer who plays well in both ends, but are you willing to pass on a possible franchise changer for a player thus far that has shown to have really no superstar potential.

again id like to know when's the last time this franchise had a player of Turris's potential in its system.

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

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The rumour came from Dregar and McKenzie who are about 2 of the most reliable sources in the NHL. Sure Steen could come back and score 30 goals this season and he has the potential to one day be a 35 goal scorer who plays well in both ends, but are you willing to pass on a possible franchise changer for a player thus far that has shown to have really no superstar potential.
again id like to know when's the last time this franchise had a player of Turris's potential in its system.

Well as I just mentioned it was just a rumor and although those two reporters are reliable, it is second hand info from an unnamed source and was it negated by the trade for Toskala that involved the #13 pick, this deal may have already been done...

[Crowned]

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Crowned, how come you never answered my question if you would have traded Steen for the #2 overall pick?

Yes I would have.

[Crowned]

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Well according to Crowned, it wasnt #13 and Steen for Turris and just a straight up one for one swap .

They said the #2 was offered in exchange for Steen, not the #13 overall pick and Steen. Nobody in the right mind would deal Steen and #13 for the #2 in the draft that had just passed, unless Kane was available.

[Griff83]

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They said the #2 was offered in exchange for Steen, not the #13 overall pick and Steen. Nobody in the right mind would deal Steen and #13 for the #2 in the draft that had just passed, unless Kane was available.

Thats weird, im sure me and tor raps arent just making something up for the sake of it. I dont understand the bolded part seeing Kane wasnt even a slam dunk and many scouts actually thought Turris should go #1 overall. Im sure I read a scouting report of yours on the draft board that said you think Turris has a really good chance to be the best player from this draft, so why would someone be crazy for trading to get a pick to grab him? are you sure Kane is that much better then Turris to make the #13 plus Steen all the sudden acceptable?

[Tor-Rap-Tor]

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They said the #2 was offered in exchange for Steen, not the #13 overall pick and Steen. Nobody in the right mind would deal Steen and #13 for the #2 in the draft that had just passed, unless Kane was available.

Well it could be argued that this deal was proposed before the draft when it was a toss up which player would be taken 1st Kane or Turris but I still think we had already dealt the 13th pick in the Toskala trade by then.

By the way 2 other players slipped way down in the draft and both could have been game changers Cherepanov and Esposito were once touted up in the top 3. Cherepanov in particular is a special player. Esposito for whatever reason went from #1 to #20, many thought dealing our pick was a big mistake but I think having a number 1 goalie is more important...

Drafted young players can be a crap shoot, you never know how they will do in the NHL...

[kelso]

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Yep wouldnt want to trade a NICE two way player for a potential superstar . Steen doesnt have close to superstar potential like a player like Turris does. Can u tell me the last time this franchise has had a prospect of Turris's ilk(3rd overall) in its system? Sundin is gone in 1-2 years and this team has no player in its system to take the forefront of being a elite player and a guy like Turris would have been perfect for this franchise.

Sure the #2 pick could turn out to be a bust, but looking at the past 7 draft's or so the %'s are really in favor of that player turning into a great to potentially superstar player. Only reason why Ferguson junior wouldnt pull this trade is because his ass is on the line and most likely wont trade CURRENT nhl talent on his roster for prospects seeing they will take a few years to become of impact and if he doesnt get this team into the playoffs this year he's out of a job.

in saying noone impressed you in this draft besides Turris and you wouldnt deal Steen for him, your basically saying you wouldnt have dealt Steen if the blackhawks offered up the #1 overall pick.

+1. Some people on this board are dillusional about the talent level in this organization. We have no one the same age as the first 3 picks in this past draft, of the same calibre, but we have a boatload of 3rd line 20-ish goal scorers, like Steen, who homers think are way more valuable then they really are.

3 years from now when Steen will still have only scored 15-23 goals a year, those same people will be saying hes' going to break out any time now (see: Antripov).

[whysoserious]

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+1. Some people on this board are dillusional about the talent level in this organization. We have no one the same age as the first 3 picks in this past draft, of the same calibre, but we have a boatload of 3rd line 20-ish goal scorers, like Steen, who homers think are way more valuable then they really are.

3 years from now when Steen will still have only scored 15-23 goals a year, those same people will be saying hes' going to break out any time now (see: Antripov).

I know, people way overrate what we have coming up. I mean we have some nice prospects that for where they were picked could be considered steals, but not one single prospect in this organization is considered a top notch prospect. We just missed the playoffs two year's in a row and have an aging franchise player with several overpaid defensemen and no future star to carry the franchise going forward.

This team as constructed is still barely a playoff team, maybe better shot at getting in this year. But if they were smart, they would do everything in their power to clear up the cap this season, trade away guys for late first rounders over the next two year's and then maybe make a run at an offer sheet on Ovechkin or Jordan Staal and use those late first rounders to move up in the draft and get some real overall talent into the organization.

The chances of them actually doing this are probably slim, especially considering the just signed Blake to that contract but that is the direction they should go. If Philly can basically stink it up for one year ( not that they planned it but due to injury ) and completely retool in one year, the Leafs should be able to do something similar.

[Crowned]

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Thats weird, im sure me and tor raps arent just making something up for the sake of it. I dont understand the bolded part seeing Kane wasnt even a slam dunk and many scouts actually thought Turris should go #1 overall. Im sure I read a scouting report of yours on the draft board that said you think Turris has a really good chance to be the best player from this draft, so why would someone be crazy for trading to get a pick to grab him? are you sure Kane is that much better then Turris to make the #13 plus Steen all the sudden acceptable?

Kane is better than Turris right now. Turris has the potential to be the best player in the draft, but players don't always pan out. If Kane were available at #2, I could see JFJ considering it, but not for Turris. I personally don't see a large difference between the two right now (in terms of what they could pan out like), but several scouting staffs, sites and individuals do. I made the comment because I think Kane has considerably higher value, seeing as how Turris played Junior B hockey, which may scare some teams away (and played a role in Turris not going #1).

[Crowned]

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+1. Some people on this board are dillusional about the talent level in this organization. We have no one the same age as the first 3 picks in this past draft, of the same calibre, but we have a boatload of 3rd line 20-ish goal scorers, like Steen, who homers think are way more valuable then they really are.

3 years from now when Steen will still have only scored 15-23 goals a year, those same people will be saying hes' going to break out any time now (see: Antripov).

Like who?

Steen is not a 3rd line player, maybe Stajan. As of right now, both Kulemin and Tlusty (two of our top offensive prospects) are projected to be 1st/2nd line players. Anton Stralman has the potential to be a top 3 d-man in this league, he's already done an exceptional job against men/professionals, proven by his play at the WHC.

Our european prospects recieve absolutely no attention by the media. This causes people to make bold comments such as "we have no prospects, we have nobody worth while, we have nothing". Have you seen Kulemin play? How about Stralman? Tlusty? Vorobiev? Pogge? Probably not.

We don't have a Getzlaf, Staal, Crosby or Ovechkin. They've proven themselves in the NHL, some of our prospects haven't seen playing time in a NA rink. Let's see how they pan out before calling half the team "overrated", because they've performed well in the time they've played elsewhere.

[Griff83]

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Kane is better than Turris right now. Turris has the potential to be the best player in the draft, but players don't always pan out. If Kane were available at #2, I could see JFJ considering it, but not for Turris. I personally don't see a large difference between the two right now (in terms of what they could pan out like), but several scouting staffs, sites and individuals do. I made the comment because I think Kane has considerably higher value, seeing as how Turris played Junior B hockey, which may scare some teams away (and played a role in Turris not going #1).

No Players dont always turn out, but teams almost always draft based on potential and many scouts leading up right until the final weekend thought Turris was the best player in this draft(and had more upside compared to Kane). Again Kane doesnt have CONSIDERABLY higher value, tons of scouts/sites thought just as highly of Turris as they did Kane. Even if Kane might have a slight edge in this department, I dont understand your thoery of

#13 + Steen for Kane = Acceptable.
#13 + Steen for Turris = Unacceptable.

"Nobody in the right mind would deal Steen and #13 for the #2"

^^considering they're isnt much difference between the 2 prospects, I dont agree with this statement. Both players are very very close in terms of perceived value and skills and its certainly not spaced out in Kanes favour like your trying to say.

[Crowned]

I don't agree, but that's fine. There's a reason why Kane put up 145 points in 58 games in the OHL, and Turris put up 121 points in 53 games in the BC Junior B league. That's why Kane went #1, and why Turris went #3. I like Turris as much as Kane and don't see a significant difference, but teams do. I've read several reports by both, and Turris' lack of experience against top notch talent (players in the OHL) is what remained consistant in those reports. We're talking Junior B hockey, not Junior A, a league not really close to the OHL in talent.

I think Kane does have higher value on the open market, and JFJ would consider it because of Kane's offensive upside. I don't know why you're constructing arguments against myself, because I'm agreeing with you that I don't see much of a difference between the two in terms of future potential. I'm simply saying that Kane has higher value right now because of what he's proven.

[Griff83]

I don't agree, but that's fine. There's a reason why Kane put up 145 points in 58 games in the OHL, and Turris put up 121 points in 53 games in the BC Junior B league. That's why Kane went #1, and why Turris went #3. I like Turris as much as Kane and don't see a significant difference, but teams do. I've read several reports by both, and Turris' lack of experience against top notch talent (players in the OHL) is what remained consistant in those reports. We're talking Junior B hockey, not Junior A, a league not really close to the OHL in talent.

I think Kane does have higher value on the open market, and JFJ would consider it because of Kane's offensive upside. I don't know why you're constructing arguments against myself, because I'm agreeing with you that I don't see much of a difference between the two in terms of future potential. I'm simply saying that Kane has higher value right now because of what he's proven.

slight at best, and even if true It doesnt justify the statement that a GM would have to be crazy to deal #13 and Steen for the #2 pick and then say its all the sudden acceptable to make that same deal for Kane who has slighty higher value.

[Crowned]

Picky over a couple words? Does it deserve long posts? JFJ would be crazy to deal Steen and #13 for Turris, but may consider it if Kane were available. What's the problem? In terms of value, he would consider Kane over Turris, did I overstate my comment with the word "crazy"? I guess so, but the idea still remains. He'd still be crazy to deal the #13/Steen for Kane, but would consider it. That #13 could've been Cherepanov...so you're looking at Cherepanov and Steen for Turris or Kane, like I said...crazy, but you still have to consider it, mainly because in turn, you could flip Kane for something more valuable if the opportunity still arises.

[mun]

Crowned wrote

Look out for the "you're a homer, you overrate Steen, you overrate the Leafs roster, you're crazy" comments

A shot at me Hey if the shoe fits, I think you do overrate Steen, regardless of the objective potential and value he holds...I think we've beaten this topic to death regarding Steen for Hejduk. I do not see your point in THAT particular discussion and respectfully DISAGREE with your view of him as a player.

That being said I do agree with and appreciate your view on the other prospects in our farm system (Pogge, Stralman, Tlutsy, Kluemin etc) we do have a few good pieces, all of which I feel have more "star" potential than Steen. That is where we disagree, I think we both share (an assumption) a similar view of how this team should be built and that we should not throw away young talent for older band-aid solutions. For example, right now I would not trade any of those prospects mentioned for Hejduk, no chance, none. However, Steen and Stajan can be had for the right price, I still like Wellwood a lot.