RealGM

First off let me say that I think Schenn is a good kid, works hard and most likely has good leadership qualities. He has some nice aspects to his game (namely physicality, good positional defending and generally good hockey sense). The problem is that he has one major weakness and that is his skating/speed and agility. In the NEW NHL with the rule changes and the way the game is evolving skating is so paramount and if you are a mediocre to below average skater you are more often then not going to be exposed in some degree. Speed kills and is becoming very transparent nowadays.

This is becoming very evident when you look at players that were considered some of the best shutdown defencemen in the old NHL. Guys like Regehr, Hannah, Willie Mitchell, Volchekov, Eric Brewer, Mike Commodore. Mike Komisarek are MUCH less effective under the new rules compared to what they gave you when they could hook, hold, interfere, ubstruck and flat out rough up opposing forwards. Those things are basically so important to a shutdown defencemen's ability to slow down opposing teams forwards. What I am saying is that "shutdown" defencemen are not nearly as impactfull/important as they once were. Sure I would like to have a guy like that on my team but I wouldnt pay them anything over 3 million dollars. They also seem to be getting injured alot these days for whatever reason.

I think Schenn has a very similar skillset to that of Willie Mitchell although a little more mobile and a little more offensive ability. I think Schenn will turn into a solid foot soldier that can eat up good minutes, play physical and be a solid 2nd pairing guy. I personally wasnt the biggest fan of selecting Schenn and tradeing up to get him was questionable considering how good Myers and Karlsson have looked. Theres a new wave of player coming into the NHL and its the good skating, puckmoving defencemen and thats why it looks fairly seemless that guys like Karlsson, John Carlson, PK Subban and even Myers can step in right away and be of impact.

Now I bring this topic up with regards to Kaberle and the current bluelines makeup and skillset. When I look at this defence core I see a physical, somewhat slow group. I think they have one of the best group of defence in the league in terms of quality depth (hasnt been shown the past year, but I blame bad goaltending and not great coaching) but there overall ability to skate and move the puck is worrisome, especially if Kaberle is jettisoned. Komisarek is a mediocre skater. Schenn is a mediocre skater. Beauchemin is a mediocre skater. Gunnerson is a better skater then those other 3 but still not someone I would consider a very good skater. Phaneuf has good wheels and Kaberle is obviously a a great skater. If we trade him we are going to be a team that struggles to get the puck out of its own zone and most likely will be pinned there for prolonged periods.

I guess what Im saying is that the more I think about it the more I actually would rather keep Kaberle and trade Schenn. Now this is not me saying, trade him for a veteran player, a typical move the leafs are known for. I would be looking for a young player like a Jamie Benn, Jordan Eberle, Jordan Staal (would prolly have to give up Schenn +), James Van RiemsDyk. I think going forward this teams defence is good enough with a unit of KABERLE, PHANEUF, KOMISAREK, BEAUCHEMIN, GUNNERSON and filler at the #6 spot. Theres no reason that cant be one of the better defence cores in the NHL. Komisarek, Phaneuf and Beauchemin bring alot of the same toughness, physicality that you get with Schenn.

I think young forwards with lots of potential are more valueble under the new rules then defensive defencemen with limited offensive upside. I think we would look better as a team with a young forward who can play on one of the top two lines then Schenn manning a 2nd pairing. A Forward core of KESSEL-KADRI-KULEMIN-BOZAK-BENN along with a UFA like FROLOV would make up a pretty decent forward group. You dont necessarily have to build a team with a legit #1 center and I actually like my teams to have a more balanced top 6.

I think Schenn should be on the trade table this offseason for a good young forward. Keep Kaberle as its becoming more and more important to have lots of ability of the backend to move the puck out of your own zone and limit the opposing teams time of possesion.

I love Luke, but to a certain extent his ceiling isn't high as we make it out to be. I still like the Adam Foote comparison that's been used before. He's a great defensive player, you don't notice him out there too much when he's on his game and he's developed his shot to be semi-decent. I think he has a chance to be the captain of a team at some point, but I don't know if it'll be with the Leafs. If you're talking about getting a top forward in return and if he still carries great value, I don't see the risk in a deal to be honest. Komisarek/Gunnarson would carry more defensive duties, but I'm perfectly fine with that to be honest. Throw in another puck mover on that defensive corps and you're good to go.

However, I just have a hard time seeing this kid dealt, I mean just thinking about Phaneuf/Schenn/Gunnarson on our blueline for the next 10 years is what has been keeping me at peace with this team right now.

bryant08 wrote:I love Luke, but to a certain extent his ceiling isn't high as we make it out to be. I still like the Adam Foote comparison that's been used before. He's a great defensive player, you don't notice him out there too much when he's on his game and he's developed his shot to be semi-decent. I think he has a chance to be the captain of a team at some point, but I don't know if it'll be with the Leafs. If you're talking about getting a top forward in return and if he still carries great value, I don't see the risk in a deal to be honest. Komisarek/Gunnarson would carry more defensive duties, but I'm perfectly fine with that to be honest. Throw in another puck mover on that defensive corps and you're good to go.

However, I just have a hard time seeing this kid dealt, I mean just thinking about Phaneuf/Schenn/Gunnarson on our blueline for the next 10 years is what has been keeping me at peace with this team right now.

The one thing this organization has is a plethora of defencemen not only on the current team but also in the minors. Jesse Blacker looks like a wonderfull 2nd round selection. Keith Aulie should turn into a similar NHL player to Schenn but not quite as good. Throw in guys like Mikus and possibly Holzer (who is reportedly willing to come over to NA now) and this team has no worries on the blueline going forward. You can find guys similar to Schenn most offseasons. I mean we picked up both Komisarek and Beauch in one swoop and theres lots of shutdown types in the UFA crop (VOLCHENKOV, HAMHUIS, MICHALEK). I just think rugged-hard hitting defensive defencemen with suspect skating are'nt nearly as capable as they once were.

If we could grab a young offensive player with a high ceiling like BENN or EBERLE I would deal Schenn very fast. I like the kid, he works hard and he should turn into a solid player but I just think it would make more sense for this team going forward to keep Kaberle and deal Schenn for a forward. It would give a good young player for Kadri to develop alongside on the second line.

The emergence of Gunnarson also makes this kind of move alot more realistic.

sign a guy like Shane Hnidy for cheap to be your #6

PHANEUF - KOMISAREK
KABERLE - BEAUCHEMIN
GUNNARSON - HNIDY

On paper that should be one of the better defence's in the league. Not many teams can boast 5 very quality defenders.

Griff83 wrote:On paper that should be one of the better defence's in the league. Not many teams can boast 5 very quality defenders.

I don't know dude. Some defenses that match Toronto's or surpass it:

Phoenix: Aucoin, Yandle, Lepisto, Jovo, Morris
Nashville: Weber, Suter, Grebeshkov, Hamhuis, Bouillon
Colorado: Foote, Cumiskey, Liles, Hannan, Wilson, Salei
St Louis: Johnson, Brewer, Jackman, Sydor
Atlanta: Oduya, Bogosian, Enstrom, Kubina, Hainsey
Minnesota: Schultz, Barker, Burns, Zidlicky
Buffalo: Myers, Rivet, Lydman, Tallinder, Montador, Sekera
Anaheim: Visnovsky, Niedermayer, Wisniewski, Ward
Philadelphia: Pronger, Coburn, Parent, Timonen, Carle
Montreal: Markov, Gorges, Spacek, Hamrlik, Subban, Gill, O'Byrne
Los Angeles: Doughty, Johnson, O'Donnell, Scuderi, Greene
Pittsburgh: Gonchar, Goligoski, Letang, Orpik, Leopold, Eaton
Detroit: Lidstrom, Stuart, Rafalski, Kronwall, Ericsson
Calgary: Bouwmeester, White, Giordano, Sarich, Regehr, Staios
Vancouver: Bieksa, Mitchell, Edler, Erhoff, Salo
Washington: Green, Jurcina, Corvo, Poti, Morrisonn, Alzner, Schultz
Chicago: Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, Hjalmarsson

Most of those are easily better than Toronto's defensive corps going forward, and you could even argue the Rangers making that list, too.

sh00n wrote:

Griff83 wrote:On paper that should be one of the better defence's in the league. Not many teams can boast 5 very quality defenders.

I don't know dude. Some defenses that match Toronto's or surpass it:

Phoenix: Aucoin, Yandle, Lepisto, Jovo, Morris
Nashville: Weber, Suter, Grebeshkov, Hamhuis, Bouillon
Colorado: Foote, Cumiskey, Liles, Hannan, Wilson, Salei
St Louis: Johnson, Brewer, Jackman, Sydor
Atlanta: Oduya, Bogosian, Enstrom, Kubina, Hainsey
Minnesota: Schultz, Barker, Burns, Zidlicky
Buffalo: Myers, Rivet, Lydman, Tallinder, Montador, Sekera
Anaheim: Visnovsky, Niedermayer, Wisniewski, Ward
Philadelphia: Pronger, Coburn, Parent, Timonen, Carle
Montreal: Markov, Gorges, Spacek, Hamrlik, Subban, Gill, O'Byrne
Los Angeles: Doughty, Johnson, O'Donnell, Scuderi, Greene
Pittsburgh: Gonchar, Goligoski, Letang, Orpik, Leopold, Eaton
Detroit: Lidstrom, Stuart, Rafalski, Kronwall, Ericsson
Calgary: Bouwmeester, White, Giordano, Sarich, Regehr, Staios
Vancouver: Bieksa, Mitchell, Edler, Erhoff, Salo
Washington: Green, Jurcina, Corvo, Poti, Morrisonn, Alzner, Schultz
Chicago: Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, Hjalmarsson

Most of those are easily better than Toronto's defensive corps going forward, and you could even argue the Rangers making that list, too.

Phoenix is debateable. That defence this season looked better then it really is due to great goaltending and having the coach implement a awesome defensive system. 1-5 I would still take the Leafs core over theres.

Nashville sure. But Hamhuis prolly wont even be on that blueline next year. Buillon is also a UFA and most likely will be replaced by Jon Blum. Weber, Suter, Grebeshkov, Blum, Klein is certainly one of the best up and coming bluelines.

Disagree on Colorado. They have some nice youngins in Cumiskey and Quincey but Foote is slowing down by the day and Wilson is nothing more then a fringe NHL'er at this point. They also lack anyone on that blueline that is as good as Phaneuf or Kaberle.

St Louis wont even be bringing back Sydor most likely. You forgot to add Polak whos pretty good. Eric Brewer hasnt played more then 60 games in either of the past two seasons. Theres as much chance he is injured and in the pressbox then on the ice. Johnson is awesome, but still 1-5 they arent as deep as Toronto. Coliacovo, Sydor, Weaver are all UFA's and could go elsewhere.

Atlanta has a nice blueline on paper. Alot will depend on the development of Entsrom and Bogosian. Kubina is also a UFA and if he leaves that is a big loss. We'll call this a toss up at this point.

Minnesota has a nice top 4 but the problem is after that its a major droppoff. Torontos #5 is much better then Minnys and thats where I'd give the advantage too.

Buffalo's defence looked great this season because Miller played like a madman. Tallinder and Lydman are both UFA's. On paper Kaberle, Phaneuf, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Gunnarson is better then what Buffalo has. Put Miller behind the leafs core and they would have looked like a hell of a better defensive team then having Toskala, Giguere or Gustafsson.

Anaheims blueline is brutal after the top 2. Niedermayer is a UFA and most likely to retire. Even if he stays the Leafs blueline is better. If he leaves or hangs them up its not even remotely close. Ward is brutal at this point in his career. Guy can hardly keep up.

Philly sure no doubt about it they are better.

Montreal sure. You can have that seeing your a bigtime habs fan.

LA no chance. Doughty and Johnson are great but then its a bunch of slow footed slugs. O Donnel is horrid and a blackhole. He will most likely retire this offseason. There #3-6 is much weaker then the leafs.

Pittsburgh debateable but Gonchar is a UFA and rumour is hes not going to come back.

Detroit no doubt.

Calgary is a wash. could argue top 5 vs top 5 all day.

Washington no way. Jurcina is junk and couldnt even crack there playoff lineup. 2-5 the leafs are much better then the Caps. You didnt even include Carlsson in the group. Corvo, Morrison and Jurcina are all UFA's this offseason. I would take the leafs top 5 every day of the week over this team.

Vancouver sure they are better. Bieska, Ehrhoff, Edler, Mitchell, Salo is a very good top 5. Problem is Mitchell is another UFA and wants apparently more money then Vancouver might want to pay for a player of his ilk.

Chicago of course is better.

The problem with alot of those teams is that they have some important players as UFA's and even some have more then one player as a UFA this summer.



Listen there are forsure teams on there that are better but there are teams on that list that the leafs are also forsure better then. Im in no way a Leafs homer or someone that overrates players but the Leafs defence is better then they showed last season. They had a horrible goalie in Toskala that allowed alot of bad goals. Komisarek got injured when he finally started to play a little better and Phaneuf was only there for a short sample size. If you look at the defence after the trade for Giggy and Phaneuf it was certainly better then before. Wilson has also done a pretty crappy job of implementing anything that resembles defensive structure. I said they should be one of the better defences in the league. When I say this I mean in the top 7-8. I think with a more experianced #1 the defence will appear much better. We will see but dont be suprised if this defence is alot better next year then this year.

It all depends on who stays and leaves, but yeah. I just think it's a stretch to say the Leafs will be a top defensive corps especially after this year. I personally think THE MONSTER is a bust and the Leafs should make a move for Corey Schneider or Jonathan Bernier and let them grow with the team.

And like always, I still think Toronto should target physical, glue guys going forward. There were three guys that I've always said Toronto should get, and that I want(ed) on the Habs more than anyone: Cammalleri, Sharp and Horton. Obviously they missed out on Cammo, but I think the other two could be had, especially with Chicago trying to clear space and Florida wanting to clear house.

As much as I don't like the Leafs (hate them actually), I love watching rebuilding teams and seeing the pieces they put together. And so far, I've been pretty disappointed with Burkie's plan. He overpaid to the max for Kessel, and overpaid/traded for overpaid defensemen. Komo is ridiculously overpaid, I feel the same way for Phaneuf and Beauch.

Above all else, they need a young megastar, and I don't see anyone on your roster filling that right now.

sh00n wrote:It all depends on who stays and leaves, but yeah. I just think it's a stretch to say the Leafs will be a top defensive corps especially after this year. I personally think THE MONSTER is a bust and the Leafs should make a move for Corey Schneider or Jonathan Bernier and let them grow with the team.

And like always, I still think Toronto should target physical, glue guys going forward. There were three guys that I've always said Toronto should get, and that I want(ed) on the Habs more than anyone: Cammalleri, Sharp and Horton. Obviously they missed out on Cammo, but I think the other two could be had, especially with Chicago trying to clear space and Florida wanting to clear house.

As much as I don't like the Leafs (hate them actually), I love watching rebuilding teams and seeing the pieces they put together. And so far, I've been pretty disappointed with Burkie's plan. He overpaid to the max for Kessel, and overpaid/traded for overpaid defensemen. Komo is ridiculously overpaid, I feel the same way for Phaneuf and Beauch.

Above all else, they need a young megastar, and I don't see anyone on your roster filling that right now.

I don't get how there's anything that you could've seen that could dictate writing off Gustavsson as a bust other than your personal opinion. We've got a lot of faith in him as a starting goaltender for years to come. Burke has also picked up Rynnas for some more goaltending depth, so from now on it's more about letting our goaltending develop internally with the help of Allaire.

Mike Komisarek's carrying a cap hit of $4.5M. He's only 27 years old and what really frustrates me is you definitely weren't saying he would be overpaid when there were rumours that he would be re-signing with the Habs. Dug this up from your offseason thread:

Snayr wrote:Don't know how legit it is, but I'm hearing rumbles that Komi is about ready to ink a 6 year/24 million dollar contract with the Habs. Personally I would be happy with that contract, you guys?

sh00n wrote:At 4 mill a year it's a steal. They could give him 12 years and at 4 mill per I'd be happy.

So instead of it being a 6 year, $24M deal (STEAL), he got 5 years, $22.5M (atrocious overpayment). Komisarek wasn't worth his money this season because of injuries, so in that sense, sure he's overpaid, but he's still got time left on that contract and from what I saw of him this season, he's going to be a part of this defense corps for a long time.

We've already been over Phaneuf/Beauchemin, I still believe Beauch especially is paid just correctly for a player of his skill level. It's not like he's Jeff Finger out there, he's a solid 2 way defenseman that's won a Stanley Cup before. On the flip side, if Beauchemin at $3.8M (29 years old, 5 goals, 21 assists, 82 games, 2 years remaining on deal) is ridiculously overpaid, how overpaid is Jaroslav Spacek at $5.5M (35 years old, 3 goals, 18 assists, 74 games, 2 years remaining on deal)? I just don't understand your scale in terms of what dictates a player being overpaid.

bryant08 wrote:

sh00n wrote:It all depends on who stays and leaves, but yeah. I just think it's a stretch to say the Leafs will be a top defensive corps especially after this year. I personally think THE MONSTER is a bust and the Leafs should make a move for Corey Schneider or Jonathan Bernier and let them grow with the team.

And like always, I still think Toronto should target physical, glue guys going forward. There were three guys that I've always said Toronto should get, and that I want(ed) on the Habs more than anyone: Cammalleri, Sharp and Horton. Obviously they missed out on Cammo, but I think the other two could be had, especially with Chicago trying to clear space and Florida wanting to clear house.

As much as I don't like the Leafs (hate them actually), I love watching rebuilding teams and seeing the pieces they put together. And so far, I've been pretty disappointed with Burkie's plan. He overpaid to the max for Kessel, and overpaid/traded for overpaid defensemen. Komo is ridiculously overpaid, I feel the same way for Phaneuf and Beauch.

Above all else, they need a young megastar, and I don't see anyone on your roster filling that right now.

I don't get how there's anything that you could've seen that could dictate writing off Gustavsson as a bust other than your personal opinion. We've got a lot of faith in him as a starting goaltender for years to come. Burke has also picked up Rynnas for some more goaltending depth, so from now on it's more about letting our goaltending develop internally with the help of Allaire.

Mike Komisarek's carrying a cap hit of $4.5M. He's only 27 years old and what really frustrates me is you definitely weren't saying he would be overpaid when there were rumours that he would be re-signing with the Habs. Dug this up from your offseason thread:

Snayr wrote:Don't know how legit it is, but I'm hearing rumbles that Komi is about ready to ink a 6 year/24 million dollar contract with the Habs. Personally I would be happy with that contract, you guys?

sh00n wrote:At 4 mill a year it's a steal. They could give him 12 years and at 4 mill per I'd be happy.

So instead of it being a 6 year, $24M deal (STEAL), he got 5 years, $22.5M (atrocious overpayment). Komisarek wasn't worth his money this season because of injuries, so in that sense, sure he's overpaid, but he's still got time left on that contract and from what I saw of him this season, he's going to be a part of this defense corps for a long time.

We've already been over Phaneuf/Beauchemin, I still believe Beauch especially is paid just correctly for a player of his skill level. It's not like he's Jeff Finger out there, he's a solid 2 way defenseman that's won a Stanley Cup before. On the flip side, if Beauchemin at $3.8M (29 years old, 5 goals, 21 assists, 82 games, 2 years remaining on deal) is ridiculously overpaid, how overpaid is Jaroslav Spacek at $5.5M (35 years old, 3 goals, 18 assists, 74 games, 2 years remaining on deal)? I just don't understand your scale in terms of what dictates a player being overpaid.

Its quite simple. Mike Komisarek was a Montreal Canadian and therefore resigning at 4 million a year is a STEAL!!!!! But now that he signs with the Leafs, hes badly overpaid for a absurd 500 grand more .

You wanna talk badly overpaid, look no further then Roman Hamrlik. Can you believe that guy just made 5.5 million dollars this past season????

Never said Spacek or Hammer weren't overpaid, in fact I want to move Hammer this summer for anything, just to get his salary off the books. And at the time I did think 4 mill per was good for Komo, until I saw what other guys were actually getting in comparison. If we had re-signed Komo, we wouldn't have had the cap to land Cammo or Gionta. And Hall Gill has stepped into Komo's role at a fraction of the price and has actually done better than Mike did, and without the turnovers in his own zone. If you guys are happy with Mike that's great, I'm just happy it was you guys that signed him for that contract and not Montreal. He was a monster for most of his time in Montreal, but after Lucic kicked the **** out of him and he hurt his shoulder, he wasn't the same player.

here's the problem...

Phaneuf didn't show much offensive shine after he came to Toronto.
You have Schenn who doesn't have a slapshot....and he's 20. sigh....
Beach and Komisarek are both variations on a theme. I'd rather have a healthy Komisarek.
Gunnarson looks like a bloody steal.
Kaberle looked pretty "meh" last year. he probably has little trade value.

you look at the Leafs' D and you pretty much have Phaneuf and Gunnarson as your primary offensive options (again, one can assume that Kaberle will be moved for something, but nothing fab, this summer). the minors have some more big defensemen as well.

but the Leafs need some good puck-moving defensemen, since Gunnarson may be your offensive stud on the point.

I'd trade Schenn in a heartbeat. but what's his value? I'd argue that its a late 1st-round pick. plus he's on the cheap. the Leafs don't have much cap space, so they can't take a hell of a lot back.

^Oh c'mon now. Schenn had a great recovery towards the end of the year, a late 1st rounder in this draft? He's got much more value than that.

Schenn would be a wonderful trading piece should Burke want to explore it. However, unless we're getting a young player (like Griff said- Benn), or someone that can make a relatively decent impact on our first line (i.e- Horton) I would hang on to him.

I just wish the Leafs would've held onto their original draft position and drafted Hodgson. I saw him live a hand full of games with Brampton this year, and he's something else.

Cody and Kadri together would be beyond exciting heading forward.

Why trade a young defensemen when you can trade a much older one and possibly add to the core as opposed to taking something away from the core and adding one other piece (core +1 vs core -1+1). It seems that most people agree that Schenn's trade value isn't high right now, so it's unlikely he is going to be the difference between attaining a superstar and an allstar.

Also, if we're up against the cap why would we trade a player still on his rookie contract (and RFA rights) and not the older defensemen that has value? And the original number of 3 mil/year for a shutdown is pure speculation as we have no idea what he will be asking for.

Schenn is 21(?) and though he doesn't have the offensive talent as some other defensemen, I still view him as someone who has the potential to be a vital piece to stanley cup winning team or more. He has seven years (+ or - a year) until he reaches his potential, no need to give up on him.

Brew666 wrote:Why trade a young defensemen when you can trade a much older one and possibly add to the core as opposed to taking something away from the core and adding one other piece (core +1 vs core -1+1). It seems that most people agree that Schenn's trade value isn't high right now, so it's unlikely he is going to be the difference between attaining a superstar and an allstar.

Also, if we're up against the cap why would we trade a player still on his rookie contract (and RFA rights) and not the older defensemen that has value? And the original number of 3 mil/year for a shutdown is pure speculation as we have no idea what he will be asking for.

Schenn is 21(?) and though he doesn't have the offensive talent as some other defensemen, I still view him as someone who has the potential to be a vital piece to stanley cup winning team or more. He has seven years (+ or - a year) until he reaches his potential, no need to give up on him.

Because I cringe at the thought of this defence without Kaberle. We are going to be pinned in our own end all game. Our ability to turn the puck up ice and start the rush will be very minimal with the likes of Phanuef and Beauchemin as your main puckmovers. Its not really taking anything away from the core. I proposed trades that would bring back a young forward for Schenn, so its basically just removing a core asset on defence and adding one to the forward group. I think we much more need help up front then on the back end. Kaberle is 32 years old and still has a good 5-6 years left in him. I dont like the kind of player Schenn is. They are becoming less and less important under the new rules and the way the game is officiated. Its all about skating these days and most shutdown defenders are on the slow side and are getting exposed more and more by the game.

Schenn just made 3 million dollars last season (cap hit). You think he's going to ask for less when he becomes a RFA? I highly doubt that. We have similar players in the system as Schenn in Komisarek, Beauchemin, Aulie and now Holzer. Even Phaneuf brings alot of the same toughness and grit that Schenn does. I dont think we would miss Schenn really all that much and would greatly improve by adding a young top 6 forward. I'd rather trade Schenn now while he still has the 5th overall pick allure before he plays a few more seasons and turns into Willie Mitchell part 2 and the league finds out that he was really never as good as his draft position or the hype the Toronto media laid upon him.

Im not giving up on Schenn. Im simply trying to improve this team by using a area of strength (defence) and attempting to trade to improve a area of weakness (forwards). I think Schenn will be a solid player in this league but not nearly as good as some hardcore leaf fans think. If Dallas offered me Jamie Benn or Edmonton offered me Jordan Eberle straight up I'd make the deal in a second.

Again I dont think some people realize how bad our ability to move the puck from the backend will be when we trade Kaberle. If we dont replace him with a cheap UFA or thru trade we are going to be crying mid season at the defence's lack of ability to move the puck out of our own zone.

if Burke can get a strong piece for Schenn, im all for it...... though if its not a strong piece, keep him

Lets face it, guys like Luke Schenn are easy to come by. Hell, didnt we sign Mike Komisarik, who is pretty much the same player as Schenn, only much older...... some might say Schenn is a future star, but chances are he is similar to Mike Komisarik in his prime. Lets not get our hopes too high

one reason i was always against trading Schenn was because he was gonna be the next captain of the LEAFS. He has all the qualities. though now its gonna be Dion Phaneuf, im 95% sure.

amazing that two seasons ago the Leafs could have basically had the pick of the litter for a trade with Luke Schenn. I dont think it will reach that point again..... though his value will rise as he rebounds.

Griff83 wrote:Because I cringe at the thought of this defence without Kaberle. We are going to be pinned in our own end all game. Our ability to turn the puck up ice and start the rush will be very minimal with the likes of Phanuef and Beauchemin as your main puckmovers. Its not really taking anything away from the core. I proposed trades that would bring back a young forward for Schenn, so its basically just removing a core asset on defence and adding one to the forward group. I think we much more need help up front then on the back end. Kaberle is 32 years old and still has a good 5-6 years left in him. I dont like the kind of player Schenn is. They are becoming less and less important under the new rules and the way the game is officiated. Its all about skating these days and most shutdown defenders are on the slow side and are getting exposed more and more by the game.

Schenn just made 3 million dollars last season (cap hit). You think he's going to ask for less when he becomes a RFA? I highly doubt that. We have similar players in the system as Schenn in Komisarek, Beauchemin, Aulie and now Holzer. Even Phaneuf brings alot of the same toughness and grit that Schenn does. I dont think we would miss Schenn really all that much and would greatly improve by adding a young top 6 forward. I'd rather trade Schenn now while he still has the 5th overall pick allure before he plays a few more seasons and turns into Willie Mitchell part 2 and the league finds out that he was really never as good as his draft position or the hype the Toronto media laid upon him.

Im not giving up on Schenn. Im simply trying to improve this team by using a area of strength (defence) and attempting to trade to improve a area of weakness (forwards). I think Schenn will be a solid player in this league but not nearly as good as some hardcore leaf fans think. If Dallas offered me Jamie Benn or Edmonton offered me Jordan Eberle straight up I'd make the deal in a second.

Again I dont think some people realize how bad our ability to move the puck from the backend will be when we trade Kaberle. If we dont replace him with a cheap UFA or thru trade we are going to be crying mid season at the defence's lack of ability to move the puck out of our own zone.

I can definitely see your agrument but going forward isn't Gunnarsson(sp?) supposed to be our puck moving defenseman? And if you're cringing at the idea of not having Kaberle on our backend then it's hard to argue that it is a position of depth if it is depenent on a 32 year old. I know we have a slew of d up and coming but they're not here yet and nothing is guaranteed to pan out. And our d wasn't that strong last year despite how much they're eating up our salary cap.

You have more of a problem with his style of game then anything, which I don't read too much into at his young age. He still has a lot to learn and still has time to improve on a number of skills. The second season (sophmore slump) always seems to take these players off guard and for all we know, it could've humbled him and he's working his ass off this offseason.

Maybe this team makes the playoffs next year or not, but moving forward Kabs' play will decline and Schenn's should be improving. In 5-6 years when we will(should) be more competitive, Schenn would be a bigger asset then Kabs.

I definitely don't see Schenn as a saviour but when you look at the Blackhawks and how they held on to as much of their young depth as possible, you can see the results. Plus, if Schenn isn't in our top 4 then that's a good sign too.

He may have the allure of a 5th round pick but if you feel that shutdown d have no value in this league going forward, wouldn't most GM's be aware of this fact and not trade a quality asset for him? You feel that Kaberle's style of play is the way to go but you think he'd get less value?

As for his salary, you're right that he wouldn't ask for less then what he is currently making, but if his all-round game doesn't improve he will be paid accordingly. When it comes to value of contract, it couldn't get much worst than Komi...so even before Schenn I'd try and deal Komi.

I wouldn't have given up Schenn so quickly prior to last season, but trading away our pick this year to get Kessel and then acquiring Phaneuf with all the other defensemen that we have, I'd move Schenn in a heartbeat to get some better offensive players in.

i would be pissed if we traded Schenn.. it takes Defense-men a few years to develop and in my opinion this kid about to break out.

i'd rather package Kulemin with Kaberle to try and get more forward help

Brew666 wrote:

Griff83 wrote:Because I cringe at the thought of this defence without Kaberle. We are going to be pinned in our own end all game. Our ability to turn the puck up ice and start the rush will be very minimal with the likes of Phanuef and Beauchemin as your main puckmovers. Its not really taking anything away from the core. I proposed trades that would bring back a young forward for Schenn, so its basically just removing a core asset on defence and adding one to the forward group. I think we much more need help up front then on the back end. Kaberle is 32 years old and still has a good 5-6 years left in him. I dont like the kind of player Schenn is. They are becoming less and less important under the new rules and the way the game is officiated. Its all about skating these days and most shutdown defenders are on the slow side and are getting exposed more and more by the game.

Schenn just made 3 million dollars last season (cap hit). You think he's going to ask for less when he becomes a RFA? I highly doubt that. We have similar players in the system as Schenn in Komisarek, Beauchemin, Aulie and now Holzer. Even Phaneuf brings alot of the same toughness and grit that Schenn does. I dont think we would miss Schenn really all that much and would greatly improve by adding a young top 6 forward. I'd rather trade Schenn now while he still has the 5th overall pick allure before he plays a few more seasons and turns into Willie Mitchell part 2 and the league finds out that he was really never as good as his draft position or the hype the Toronto media laid upon him.

Im not giving up on Schenn. Im simply trying to improve this team by using a area of strength (defence) and attempting to trade to improve a area of weakness (forwards). I think Schenn will be a solid player in this league but not nearly as good as some hardcore leaf fans think. If Dallas offered me Jamie Benn or Edmonton offered me Jordan Eberle straight up I'd make the deal in a second.

Again I dont think some people realize how bad our ability to move the puck from the backend will be when we trade Kaberle. If we dont replace him with a cheap UFA or thru trade we are going to be crying mid season at the defence's lack of ability to move the puck out of our own zone.

I can definitely see your agrument but going forward isn't Gunnarsson(sp?) supposed to be our puck moving defenseman? And if you're cringing at the idea of not having Kaberle on our backend then it's hard to argue that it is a position of depth if it is depenent on a 32 year old. I know we have a slew of d up and coming but they're not here yet and nothing is guaranteed to pan out. And our d wasn't that strong last year despite how much they're eating up our salary cap.

You have more of a problem with his style of game then anything, which I don't read too much into at his young age. He still has a lot to learn and still has time to improve on a number of skills. The second season (sophmore slump) always seems to take these players off guard and for all we know, it could've humbled him and he's working his ass off this offseason.

Maybe this team makes the playoffs next year or not, but moving forward Kabs' play will decline and Schenn's should be improving. In 5-6 years when we will(should) be more competitive, Schenn would be a bigger asset then Kabs.

I definitely don't see Schenn as a saviour but when you look at the Blackhawks and how they held on to as much of their young depth as possible, you can see the results. Plus, if Schenn isn't in our top 4 then that's a good sign too.

He may have the allure of a 5th round pick but if you feel that shutdown d have no value in this league going forward, wouldn't most GM's be aware of this fact and not trade a quality asset for him? You feel that Kaberle's style of play is the way to go but you think he'd get less value?

As for his salary, you're right that he wouldn't ask for less then what he is currently making, but if his all-round game doesn't improve he will be paid accordingly. When it comes to value of contract, it couldn't get much worst than Komi...so even before Schenn I'd try and deal Komi.

Gunnarson hasnt proven anything. He played in 43 games last season and he looks more like a steady defensive presence who can make a good first pass. He certainly doesnt look like a future puckmoving defencemen. His skating isnt of the calibur that you look for in a frontline puckmover. He should turn into a solid player but I have seen nothing from him to think he will be able to ever come close to replacing what Kaberle brings. Yes even without Kaberle we still have lots of depth, but what we dont have is lots of depth in the puck movement department. Phaneuf is really the only guy who has these skills and even then he's not really a guy you want making all the decisions with the puck from the backend. Komisarek, Schenn and to a lesser extend Beuchemin are all rather slow footed and have nothing more then a first pass (Beauchemin a little more ability then the other two, but still nothing special).

Its not just his style but its his skillset and the way the game is evolving. Schenn will never be a offensively gifted player and unless something drastic happens he will always be battling with the speed of the game because he is a rather mediocre to poor skater with questionable footspeed. When I watch the games these days guys like Regehr, Mitchell, Phillips, Volchenkov, Hannah (all guys who used to be considered the best shutdown guys) are having trouble with the speed of the game. They are no longer able to do alot of the things that made it alot easier to shutdown opposing forwards. Its no coincedence that the 3 Norris finalists this season where 3 guys with very good skating ability and more of the offensive types. I dont buy this "sophomore slump" excuse. How come players like Stamkos, Doughty, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Parise etc never experianced this supposed sophomore slump? It seems like the truly good players dont experiance this. Seems like a weak excuse for a young players struggles. The game is getting faster with each passing season and I think this combined with Schenn's weak foot speed had more to do with his struggles then simply a "sophomore slump".

There is no gurantee Kaberle will all the sudden start to decline. Look at what Gonchar, Lidtsrom, Rafalski, Niedermayer have done at the ages of like 35-38 recently. The game isnt nearly as physical as it once was and it allows these finesse puckomvers to have a much longer shelflife for sucess then under the old rules. Kaberle plays such a carefull and elusive style that he really shouldnt decline much at all, unlike some of the bigger more physical style guys like a Kubina, Willie Mitchell, Chara. It's also not even totally just about choosing Kaberle over Schenn. Its my concern how bad this team is going to be at moving the puck from the defence to the forwards once he is gone. Our transition game and ability to keep teams from pinning us in our own zone will be almost non existant minus Kaberle and bringing in no legitimant replacement. If they trade Kaberle and they go out and sign a guy like Paul Martin or trade for someone who can move the puck well then I have no beefs and would keep Schenn, but if its a choice of either trading Kaberle and keeping the defence core as is or trading Schenn to fill a very big hole up front then I would choose the latter.

The Blackhawks sure did keep there youth but what Im proposing isnt getting rid of youth. Its simply trading a young defencemen for a young forward. This would be totally different if I was saying lets trade Schenn for some veteran player like Marc Savard or Brad Richards. I used examples of players like Benn, Neal, Staal, Eberle other young players who fill more of a hole for the Leafs. A trade like this is in no way throwing away youth or trading it away. No if Schenn doesnt turn into a top 4 then its a bad thing. It will mean we basically wasted a top 5 selection on a foot soldier who plays physical.

Teams will always take on a player that was selected high or had early sucess in there careers. Its like why teams keep on trading for or giving Dontrelle Willis a chance in major league baseball. Even tho I think a team should be constructed a certain way right now with the ever changing game doesnt mean ever single GM in the NHL agree's. Im sure there are many GM's who still think a big, mean and tough team will be the way to go. I'd hate for Schenn to have another underwhelming season and for teams around the league to finally figure him out. I just dont think he's all that great and has been badly overhyped by the Toronto media. Go look at the past 10 or so drafts and look at defensive defencemen that where drafted in the top 5 or even top 10 of a draft. They almost always bust or just turn out to be very mediocre NHL players. Kaberle would have more value to alot of teams then Schenn if he wasnt staring free agency right in the face. Lots of teams will be reluctant to give up alot seeing they know Kaberle apparently only wants to play in the East and he very well could bolt after only playing one season for them.

Who is going to trade for Komi when his contract is looking really bad and he was shutdown for the season with shoulder surgery. I would love for this to happen but I really dont think there would be a GM dumb enough to try to aquire him at the stage of his career with the money he's making and now the injury concerns. I just dont think Schenn is going to be this menacing Scott Stevens clone that many in Toronto think. He has nowhere near the skills of Stevens and isnt as mean. Even if he turns out to be a Foote clone, like I said he wont be able to do alot of things that Foote was allowed to under the old nhl rules and this will limit his effectiveness. Unless Schenn drastically improves his skating, agility and footspeed he's always going to struggle 5 on 5 and mostly in the neutral zone where teams gain speed. If some team offered me a good young forward for Schenn that would improve my offence, I would have no trouble making that move and then simply re signing Kaberle.