ImageImageImage

Leafs Offseason Discussion

Moderator: Crowned

User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#21 » by whysoserious » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:19 am

Oilers win the draft, opportunity to move up with our pick? They don't really need Yakupov with Hall and Nugent-Hopkins. They could drop down and still get a top defensemen.
Crowned
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 4,428
And1: 55
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Toronto

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#22 » by Crowned » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:28 am

Yakupov, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Gagner, Hemsky...that'll likely be their top 6 next year. Wow...
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#23 » by whysoserious » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:30 am

Would they look to take Schenn off our hands for one of those forwards?

I know Schenn's value is down but would anyone around here consider Schenn/Kadri for Yakupov or trying to get Gagner/Eberle off their hands?
User avatar
hsb
RealGM
Posts: 17,501
And1: 14,655
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#24 » by hsb » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:19 am

Trading Phil Kessel is a non-starter; sixth in the league in points and goals, great contract and very young.

Oilers winning again and Yakupov seems to be ranked much higher than his colleagues. The Leafs should get a great prospect at the number five spot.
"I definitely knew he traveled, but I didn't know they were going to call it. That was one of them situations in which a great player made a move...and they called the call. And I was like, 'Oh, man, there is a God.'
Crowned
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 4,428
And1: 55
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Toronto

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#25 » by Crowned » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:47 am

whysoserious wrote:Would they look to take Schenn off our hands for one of those forwards?

I know Schenn's value is down but would anyone around here consider Schenn/Kadri for Yakupov or trying to get Gagner/Eberle off their hands?


They'd want a lot more than that for the #1 overall pick. You're looking at #5 and Gardiner for #1 and something.

I think Eberle would be untouchable, but Gagner may be available. I don't think I'd have much interest in him, depending on the price. I surely wouldn't break the bank for him.
YogiStewart
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 25,507
And1: 6,192
Joined: Aug 08, 2007
Location: Its ALL about Location, Location, Location!

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#26 » by YogiStewart » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:30 am

i'd just like to say that Burke's face when the Leafs found out they were drafting 5th? priceless.
dude's having a rough day at the office.
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#27 » by whysoserious » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:24 pm

Crowned wrote:They'd want a lot more than that for the #1 overall pick. You're looking at #5 and Gardiner for #1 and something.

I think Eberle would be untouchable, but Gagner may be available. I don't think I'd have much interest in him, depending on the price. I surely wouldn't break the bank for him.


On Brady&Lang they were discussing Brent Seabrook for Eberle and keeping the number 1 pick from Edmonton.

I'm just gonna throw out the fact I think the Leafs should make a push for the number 1 pick and for Yakupov. Of all the number 1 centers in the league, pretty much all of them were drafted by the teams they play for.

There's still talk of the Schenn for Van Riemsdyk deal which I kind of like, just concerned with the concussion that JVR had.

I think the other guy the Leafs should look at, and might not cost as much as Schneider based on age but could be available would be Kipper from Calgary. If they do go in to full rebuild, he could be available. He'd be perfect to come in for a few seasons, let Reimer play about 20 games behind him and learn.

As much as I love Gardiner, would anyone consider the Gardiner and 5 for number 1? I think I'd take a long hard look at it. I'd pull the trigger if you can somehow turn say Kadri and 2013 first for Kipper and Schenn for JVR.

Also, I'd see if anyone bites on Kulemin for a late first or early second rounder. I may be pipedreaming on those deals, but there at least may be the foundation for each of those deals. If the Leafs came out of the summer with Yakupov, Kipper and JVR I'd say that's a huge success, if they can somehow dow it without including Gardiner, OMG, that's a complete homerun.
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#28 » by whysoserious » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:26 pm

YogiStewart wrote:i'd just like to say that Burke's face when the Leafs found out they were drafting 5th? priceless.
dude's having a rough day at the office.


Burke is a fool when he speaks. Calling the Pittsburgh model a joke or saying Pittsburgh, my a$$ just comes off like he's out of touch with reality. Yes, wherever you go to the draft you need to make solid picks and yes they won the lottery. But you ain't gettting a Sidney Crosby any other way. As good as Sundin was, the Leafs have not had what would be considered the best player in the league in probably 30 years. One could argue Gilmour but even then, there were probably tons of names you'd rank ahead of him.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 27,227
And1: 12,291
Joined: Apr 28, 2008

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#29 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:33 pm

Crowned wrote:
Prior to Lupul, Kessel was playing with Bozak and Crabb, both 4th line players. Lupul absolutely benefited from Kessel, and his stats proved it. Do you think he would've put up the same production playing next to Kulemin or MacArthur?


No, but it's not like Lupul didn't help Kessel either. Once Lupul went down Kessel's ppg dropped to his career averages. Like I said, they helped each other, and to say that Kessel's doing it alone is incorrect.

The trait of a good coach is to alter their style around a good offensive player. We shouldn't be trading Kessel because Carlysle likes to play a certain way, Carlysle should be figuring out how to maximize Kessel's talents.


A good coach wins games. Carlysle just has to get the most out of Kessel in all three zones. The GM should be figuring out how to either pick up the slack for what Kessel can't do (like clear the defensive end, check, show up against Boston) or think of translating that talent into some piece or pieces that win more games. My comment pertaining to Carlysle is that he's here for three more years and I'm extremely skeptical that Kessel will cotton to his style of coaching. We might see his asset value diminish because of this. It's just a hunch, but if you have a top 5 scorer who's young and on a reasonable contract, that might be appealing to other teams, too.

The 'he should go because he's valuable' argument is flawed. Should we trade Gardiner because he could fetch a lot? My point is, you don't trade a 25 year old player coming off a season where he was top 5 in scoring, all while playing with Tyler Bozak and Joffrey Lupul. How many 25 year old players that scored 37 goals and 80 points are available? If he had a legitimate center next to him, he would've put up 90 points.


Trading a flawed player at his peak value when he's nearing a contract extension could be a smart move, depending on the return. I would trade Gardiner if he could better value. Who wouldn't? I don't see the flaw in that argument.
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#30 » by whysoserious » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:33 pm

Kessel is a great scorer with flaws defensively, and attitude/effort concerns. He's a good player on a team that has a developed core of talent and he's even a part of it. But in our situation, without moves, he keeps you good but not great, hinders your cap and your not bad enough to snag that elite level talent.

The problem really isn't Kessel, it's more to do with where Burke has committed his salaries around him and the lack of a number 1 center, number 1 defenseman and number 1 goalie. You can argue Phaneuf/Gardiner or Reimer is the piece, but there's questions around both.

Kessel is young, but you're not bad enough to draft any of those, you don't really have any cap room to sign thme and they rarely come on the market, and you may not have the assets to trade for them.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 27,227
And1: 12,291
Joined: Apr 28, 2008

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#31 » by ATLTimekeeper » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:20 pm

Just wait until he's a UFA and look at the price tag he'll ask for in lieu of not getting one of those 7-10 year deals Burke won't do. He'll be a cap killer. We might survive it if we hit a home run with this pick. There are a few first line centers available. Like I said, I'd prefer to cash in now and fix some glaring holes that might make us a better overall team while keeping the cap in control.
User avatar
sanity
RealGM
Posts: 17,550
And1: 1,810
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#32 » by sanity » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:45 pm

**** Oilers man... ****!
Crowned
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 4,428
And1: 55
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Toronto

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#33 » by Crowned » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:19 pm

whysoserious wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:i'd just like to say that Burke's face when the Leafs found out they were drafting 5th? priceless.
dude's having a rough day at the office.


Burke is a fool when he speaks. Calling the Pittsburgh model a joke or saying Pittsburgh, my a$$ just comes off like he's out of touch with reality. Yes, wherever you go to the draft you need to make solid picks and yes they won the lottery. But you ain't gettting a Sidney Crosby any other way. As good as Sundin was, the Leafs have not had what would be considered the best player in the league in probably 30 years. One could argue Gilmour but even then, there were probably tons of names you'd rank ahead of him.


I absolutely love when he comments about other teams structures and trades, etc. He calls Pittsburgh a joke from how they built their roster, when he's had perhaps the least amount of success out of any team in the league since he was hired.
Crowned
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 4,428
And1: 55
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Toronto

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#34 » by Crowned » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:27 pm

whysoserious wrote:
Crowned wrote:They'd want a lot more than that for the #1 overall pick. You're looking at #5 and Gardiner for #1 and something.

I think Eberle would be untouchable, but Gagner may be available. I don't think I'd have much interest in him, depending on the price. I surely wouldn't break the bank for him.


On Brady&Lang they were discussing Brent Seabrook for Eberle and keeping the number 1 pick from Edmonton.

I'm just gonna throw out the fact I think the Leafs should make a push for the number 1 pick and for Yakupov. Of all the number 1 centers in the league, pretty much all of them were drafted by the teams they play for.

There's still talk of the Schenn for Van Riemsdyk deal which I kind of like, just concerned with the concussion that JVR had.

I think the other guy the Leafs should look at, and might not cost as much as Schneider based on age but could be available would be Kipper from Calgary. If they do go in to full rebuild, he could be available. He'd be perfect to come in for a few seasons, let Reimer play about 20 games behind him and learn.

As much as I love Gardiner, would anyone consider the Gardiner and 5 for number 1? I think I'd take a long hard look at it. I'd pull the trigger if you can somehow turn say Kadri and 2013 first for Kipper and Schenn for JVR.

Also, I'd see if anyone bites on Kulemin for a late first or early second rounder. I may be pipedreaming on those deals, but there at least may be the foundation for each of those deals. If the Leafs came out of the summer with Yakupov, Kipper and JVR I'd say that's a huge success, if they can somehow dow it without including Gardiner, OMG, that's a complete homerun.


I don't think I'd deal Gardiner and the #5 pick for Yakupov, I'd throw a ton at them...but that's not something I'd consider. IF the Leafs could somehow sign Justin Shultz this summer (that's who Burke wanted instead of Gardiner in the Lupul trade), then maybe...but it'd be an extremely risky trade. I think Yakupov will be an elite talent, but I think Gardiner is going to be a special player for a very long time.
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#35 » by whysoserious » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:27 am

Crowned wrote:
I don't think I'd deal Gardiner and the #5 pick for Yakupov, I'd throw a ton at them...but that's not something I'd consider. IF the Leafs could somehow sign Justin Shultz this summer (that's who Burke wanted instead of Gardiner in the Lupul trade), then maybe...but it'd be an extremely risky trade. I think Yakupov will be an elite talent, but I think Gardiner is going to be a special player for a very long time.



The way I look at it is we signed Liles to an extension to be a puck moving defensemen. Gardiner is younger and probably close to equal/equal/already better depending on your perception. But you're not going to land a top notch Center talent without giving up something.

I also fear the Schenn for JVR deal because I just feel like in Philly, Schenn is going to completely blossom in to a big hitter and shut down defensement. I'd rather move Schenn west if you're gonna trade him.

I think if you can land Yakupov and if you move Gardiner, you can re-sign Franson. Then you can try and move Kulemin for a late first. Then do something with that first rounder and Schenn maybe for Kipper or Schneider/Luongo or something.

Coming out of the summer with Yakupov and either Kipper/Luongo/Schneider, would be a huge success and don't spend ridiculous money with long term on that supposed size that Burke wants for 3rd and 4th liners which he has done.
Crowned
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 4,428
And1: 55
Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Location: Toronto

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#36 » by Crowned » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:22 am

whysoserious wrote:
Crowned wrote:
I don't think I'd deal Gardiner and the #5 pick for Yakupov, I'd throw a ton at them...but that's not something I'd consider. IF the Leafs could somehow sign Justin Shultz this summer (that's who Burke wanted instead of Gardiner in the Lupul trade), then maybe...but it'd be an extremely risky trade. I think Yakupov will be an elite talent, but I think Gardiner is going to be a special player for a very long time.



The way I look at it is we signed Liles to an extension to be a puck moving defensemen. Gardiner is younger and probably close to equal/equal/already better depending on your perception. But you're not going to land a top notch Center talent without giving up something.

I also fear the Schenn for JVR deal because I just feel like in Philly, Schenn is going to completely blossom in to a big hitter and shut down defensement. I'd rather move Schenn west if you're gonna trade him.

I think if you can land Yakupov and if you move Gardiner, you can re-sign Franson. Then you can try and move Kulemin for a late first. Then do something with that first rounder and Schenn maybe for Kipper or Schneider/Luongo or something.

Coming out of the summer with Yakupov and either Kipper/Luongo/Schneider, would be a huge success and don't spend ridiculous money with long term on that supposed size that Burke wants for 3rd and 4th liners which he has done.


Yakupov isn't a centre, he's a winger. If we're looking for a centre in the draft (which they will be), you're better off targeting Grigorenko or Galchenyuk. I would absolutely make a run for Nail, but not at the expense of Gardiner and the pick (which I suggested the asking price may be in an earlier post).

I'd absolutely trade Schenn for JVR if it were on the table. I'm not that high on Schenn, and would maximize his value while we can.
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#37 » by whysoserious » Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:37 pm

Crowned wrote:Yakupov isn't a centre, he's a winger. If we're looking for a centre in the draft (which they will be), you're better off targeting Grigorenko or Galchenyuk. I would absolutely make a run for Nail, but not at the expense of Gardiner and the pick (which I suggested the asking price may be in an earlier post).

I'd absolutely trade Schenn for JVR if it were on the table. I'm not that high on Schenn, and would maximize his value while we can.


My bad on the Yakupov/Centre thing.

I agree that the price is likely going to be Gardiner and the 5 pick. I'd look at Edmonton and the loads of talent they have between the number 1 pick, Hall, Nugent Hopkins, Eberle, Gagne. I'm not saying all those guys are available, but maybe you can snag something from them, it doesnt have to be the number 1 pick. This also doesn't take in to account the sour relationship between Lowe and Burke. I know they kind of worked out but it's probably still gonna hinder working out a deal.

I like the JVR acquisition, my fear though is he's gonna fulfill his promise in Philly and JVR will be a solid addition, but we'd look back 5-6 years from now and be saying we could really use a guy like Schenn.

I still like Phaneuf, but I wonder if you could ever get Philly to bite on a Phaneuf deal. Not likely, especially with the Hartnell/Phaneuf hate going on.

Basically, even with some solid pieces in place already, Burke can't be comitted to anyone on this team. He should be exploring every single opportunity no matter who is being asked for off our team.

BTW, another guy I'd love to see on the Leafs, and we should have got him years ago if not for a stupid fax machine is Jarret Stoll.
_venom_
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,954
And1: 100
Joined: Oct 25, 2007
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#38 » by _venom_ » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:04 pm

Now that we're locked into the 5th pick I would look into:

1) Trying to get Vancouver to bite on a package for Schneider without including the pick (Schenn or Franson, Kadri, 2nd rd picks, etc....)

2) If Vancouver will only trade Schneider to us for the pick I still pull the trigger. Schneider is a legitimate stud goalie and he's young. The Leafs need some stability for once in goal.

3) If Vancouver isn't going to move Schneider then I'd try to call Edmonton to move up to 1. I wouldn't include Gardiner in the deal to move up though. Schenn sure, but not Gardiner. Gardiner was our best dman this season.

4) If you can't move up to 1, then use the pick on either Grigorenko, Galchenyuk or Forsberg.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 27,227
And1: 12,291
Joined: Apr 28, 2008

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#39 » by ATLTimekeeper » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:33 pm

I'd be pretty content with Galchenyuk, Forsberg or Murray. I'm not sure the price tag on Yakupov will be worth it.

It doesn't sound like Burke knows what's gone wrong. He seems genuinely surprised, yet at the same time he holds onto his dogmas and is as arrogant as ever. This is a recipe for failure.
User avatar
whysoserious
RealGM
Posts: 29,668
And1: 7,700
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
       

Re: Leafs Offseason Discussion 

Post#40 » by whysoserious » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:01 pm

I agree venom with trying to work out something with Edmonton for the number 1 pick, minus Gardiner.

Schenn and 5 for Yakupov is not so bad. Doesn't Edmonton have one rookie young D man that was highly touted offensively? Pairing Schenn with him while still getting a top 5 pick could be a solid deal.

From our perspective, it moves Schenn out of the conference so if he develops, you're not facing him as much as facing Philly.

Also, I'd keep the pick on Galchenyuk. If Murray's available, you might want to take him as well, with the intent of moving some of your D prospects - Schenn, Franson, Gunnarson or Holzer.

I'd also look at moving down in the draft if you can guarantee getting Faksa. Not sure about him much, but he's getting a ton of hype right now. That could be bad, if he's getting overhyped. But you could add some assets while still getting a great pick by dropping down from 5.

As far as Schneider goes, Vancouver's got a real tough call to make this summer. They can move Schneider and stick with Luongo. If RL struggles, they may look to move Luongo, but his contract's pretty big so what you get back might not be as much as Schneider.

I don't think Kipper becomes available, but if he does, I make that call.

Return to Toronto Maple Leafs