JFJ must go!!!!

[bobbyp3588]

OK - here's the reason...

Last off-season, as we all know, JFJ traded away the best goalie not in the nhl, and future vezina winner (remember where you heard it first) Tuuka Rask for a guy who didn't only lose his starting job, but the back-up job as well for the **** bruins in Raycroft. He then GAVE THE FORMER BRUIN 3RD STRINGER A RAISE!!!! WHAT????? In my mind that would have been enough to fire him.

Now, we all know what kind of a season Raycroft had last year - not a great one.

Now, here's the kicker...when asked what the priority would be this off-season, JFJ responded..."our main priority is to strengthen our goaltending.."!!!!!

He must be a moron...if I had any say, it'd be..."JFJ...you're fired!"

[Crowned]

Andrew Raycroft was coming off a fantastic ROY season. The next season, he was injured...and still young/inexperienced, while playing for an ugly Boston Bruins. I don't see anything wrong with trading for a goaltender who had 1 full season of starting duties under his belt.


Re-signing him? He was signed for 2 million per, and recorded 37 wins, not bad value for your dollar.


A young, inexperienced goaltender with 2 years worth action on a poor defensive team is not a bad investment. Looking at the Leafs, they're not exactly a good defensive squad either. The defenseman on their roster are mainly offensive minded. Atleast give Raycorft time to develop in pro hockey before passing off judgements on the guy.

[Griff83]

Andrew Raycroft was coming off a fantastic ROY season. The next season, he was injured...and still young/inexperienced, while playing for an ugly Boston Bruins. I don't see anything wrong with trading for a goaltender who had 1 full season of starting duties under his belt.


Re-signing him? He was signed for 2 million per, and recorded 37 wins, not bad value for your dollar.


A young, inexperienced goaltender with 2 years worth action on a poor defensive team is not a bad investment. Looking at the Leafs, they're not exactly a good defensive squad either. The defenseman on their roster are mainly offensive minded. Atleast give Raycorft time to develop in pro hockey before passing off judgements on the guy.

I agree with alot of your post, but the Leafs have no room to be developing goalies when they have missed the playoffs 2 seasons in a row. We need to make the playoffs NOW and cant be holding onto the though that Raycroft might develop into a very good goalie one day, when there is a decent possibility he doesnt.

I personally hope JFJ makes a play for Giguere or trades for one of Nabakov or Toskala.

[Crowned]

I've never liked the deal, I've always been extremely high on Tukka Rask...and have hyped him on this board for years. However, with Justin Pogge on board, I could understand why JFJ completed the deal. I wouldn't blame him in the long run if he did end up losing the trade, because it actually made sense at the time considering our goaltending situation.

I say give Raycroft one more year in the Toronto atmosphere, and see what he does. Barring any significant moves in the offseason, this team isn't a serious contender at the moment, and by allowing Raycroft to show what he's capable of, you'll atleast be showing some confidence in the guy. As it stands, I wouldn't trade any prospects for Nabokov, but I would 'try' acquiring a goaltender via free agency. If Raycroft stuggles again next season...go out and pick up a goaltender, even if it's midseason. I don't think there's an urgency in the area at all. They should be focusing on finding Sundin someone to play with, and strengthening that blueline of theirs. They really do need a shutdown/defensive blueliner.

[MAS]

just have some patience guys... something big is gonna happen (i think)

[kelso]

Patience?? 1967 was a long time ago. Forget a cup, we haven't even played for it since then, while expansion teams have been to the cup, more then once, and won it, and we aspire to one day soon be mediocre.

This is the crowned jewel of hockey franchises and they feed us crap year after year. They hire rookie GMs, rookie coaches, bring old local talent home to slowly end their careers and cash in year-after-year on record profits and increased tiecket sales. I haven't even mentioned Leafs TV yet.

Go drink your cool aid somewhere else. I want a cup and management team that won't accept anything less then competing for it every year. With this market and their resources, there is no excuse other than incompetence why that doesn't happen.

[MAS]

Patience?? 1967 was a long time ago. Forget a cup, we haven't even played for it since then, while expansion teams have been to the cup, more then once, and won it, and we aspire to one day soon be mediocre.

This is the crowned jewel of hockey franchises and they feed us crap year after year. They hire rookie GMs, rookie coaches, bring old local talent home to slowly end their careers and cash in year-after-year on record profits and increased tiecket sales. I haven't even mentioned Leafs TV yet.

Go drink your cool aid somewhere else. I want a cup and management team that won't accept anything less then competing for it every year. With this market and their resources, there is no excuse other than incompetence why that doesn't happen.

see what i mean by patience is wait a couple of days. Regardless, nothing is going to happen over night anyways that is gonna turn this team into a Cup contender so all this bitching about that we've all waited 40 years is just a waste of energy

[juucer]

I agree with alot of your post, but the Leafs have no room to be developing goalies when they have missed the playoffs 2 seasons in a row. We need to make the playoffs NOW and cant be holding onto the though that Raycroft might develop into a very good goalie one day, when there is a decent possibility he doesnt.

I personally hope JFJ makes a play for Giguere or trades for one of Nabakov or Toskala.

Fans like you, BlueJay, are the reason the Leafs are a treadmill team aspiring for perpetual mediocrity. Make the playoffs NOW? For what? To get bounced in the 1st round??


The Penguins took 5 yrs to rebuild and look where they are now... they have the best player in the game and will be legit cup CONTENDERS for the next 15 years. The Sens did the same thing, and the Flyers are in the midst of it right now.

[kelso]

-= original quote snipped =-



Fans like you, BlueJay, are the reason the Leafs are a treadmill team aspiring for perpetual mediocrity. Make the playoffs NOW? For what? To get bounced in the 1st round??


The Penguins took 5 yrs to rebuild and look where they are now... they have the best player in the game and will be legit cup CONTENDERS for the next 15 years. The Sens did the same thing, and the Flyers are in the midst of it right now.

What are you suggesting? That the Leafs can just take 5 years like the Sens and Pens to rebuild? You're missing some really BIG differences here, like specifically the fact that the Sens and Pens drafted at or very near the top of the draft for a number of consecutive years. The Leafs either traded away their picks, or drafted in the mid-to-late first round and drafted poorly to boot. Trades and drafting are directly attributed to management.

As well, to suggest the Pens will be contenders for the next 15 years is folly. They can control their rookies (Fleury, Crosby, Staal, Malkin, etc.) for only so long then they will run out of cap space to keep them all signed. To stay near the top they will need to have a steady flow of good young talent, whihc only comes from adept drafting, whihc the Leafs have been void of for quite some time.

[Griff83]

-= original quote snipped =-



Fans like you, BlueJay, are the reason the Leafs are a treadmill team aspiring for perpetual mediocrity. Make the playoffs NOW? For what? To get bounced in the 1st round??


The Penguins took 5 yrs to rebuild and look where they are now... they have the best player in the game and will be legit cup CONTENDERS for the next 15 years. The Sens did the same thing, and the Flyers are in the midst of it right now.

Fans like me?

Buddy its totally UNEXCEPTABLE for a franchise that pulls in this much coin and has as big of a following to miss the playoffs 3 years in a row. Exactly like Kelso mentioned your comparison of the Leafs to that of the Pens/Philly/sens is terrible seeing all those teams were FULLY committed to rebuilding and all had top of the draft draft picks, which the Leafs havent had. If the Leafs were fully committed to rebuilding (meaning trading your older players on the decline like Mats for picks/young players) then I would support the movement and not care about the playoffs, but when you resign a ageing captain, dish out about 15 million to 3 guys on your blueline and trade the best prospect in your system for a average goalie you better damn well make the playoffs.

Its fans like you who buy into this crapshoot that MLSE is trying to feed the fans that they are rebuilding. Truth is they ARENT and they are trying to do this on the fly retool and so far it hasnt accomplished much (missing the playoffs and getting MEDIOCRE picks, unlike the Pens, Flyers, Sens) whos rebuilding process can be greatly attributed to high picks (Spezza, Crosby, Malkin, Stall, soon to be top 5 for Philly in this upcoming draft).

Those teams commited FULLY to rebuilding trading away older players or even all stars (Forsberg most recently to propell the rebuilding process) and this is something the Leafs just arent willing to do so there is no way you can call this REBUILDING. Sorry but id rather make the playoffs and have the chance to win a round or 2 then to miss out and be happy with picking up middle of the pack first rounders and call that rebuilding.

Its fans like you who buy into this junk that MLSE is selling that the Leafs are rebuiliding when they actually arent. You dont go out and sign a 5million a year defencemen to be your #3 if you are indeed rebuilding. Its fans like you who except losing and have hope towards the future solely on some mediocre prospects .

How is someone suppose to support a franchise and team that always screws there fans and never put the people in place that should be. Sorry Ill rather take Quinns sucess (consistant playoffs and winning some rounds with the chance to make a run) over some half assed retooling process that JFJ is running.

[juucer]

In response to both kelso and BlueJay:

I am in no way saying that JFJ has made good moves. All I'm saying that that fans like you won't accept a 5 yr plan to dump inflated contracts and finish at the bottom of the barrel in the NHL. Fans like you would be calling for JFJ's head if he let Sundin walk and traded McCabe for spare parts. But, long term this would result in years of high draft picks, cap room, and a future.

Problem is, fans like you would put JFJ out of a job. Therefore, JFJ has no choice but to continue to sacrifice his 1st rounders, sign mediocre players and trade a good future for a decent present (assuming he wants to keep his job). Fans like you would rather witness 10yrs of first round playoff exits than 5 yrs of horrible losing followed by 5 years of Stanley Cup finals appearances.

Ottawa went through those brutal years in the mid-90s, trading away their stars like Yashin for some nobody defenseman and a future 1st rounder. At the time it was a disgrace, but in a few years that nobody defenceman was Zdeno Chara and that future 1st rounder was Jason Spezza. Fans like you insist on firing JFJ if he ever made a similar trade because you want playoffs playoffs playoffs every year. What do I want? Call me crazy but I want this team to lose, I want them to be a laughing stock for the next 5 years so that we can spend the next 10-15 years after that polishing the cup.

(p.s.... when I say "fans like you" it is not a personal attack, just a metaphor for the general consensus of thought among Leaf fans)

[kelso]

Au contraire....I would completely welcome a rebuild movement and I think you would be surprised as to how many fans would. Just call it like it is- don't call it a retool when its a rebuild, and vice versa. people aren't stupid- they know you just can't change a team overnight.

I love Sundin, but when I see what guys like Forsberg fetched at the trade deadline last year, I would have jumped all over a similar deal.

[Griff83]

In response to both kelso and BlueJay:

I am in no way saying that JFJ has made good moves. All I'm saying that that fans like you won't accept a 5 yr plan to dump inflated contracts and finish at the bottom of the barrel in the NHL. Fans like you would be calling for JFJ's head if he let Sundin walk and traded McCabe for spare parts. But, long term this would result in years of high draft picks, cap room, and a future.
Problem is, fans like you would put JFJ out of a job. Therefore, JFJ has no choice but to continue to sacrifice his 1st rounders, sign mediocre players and trade a good future for a decent present (assuming he wants to keep his job). Fans like you would rather witness 10yrs of first round playoff exits than 5 yrs of horrible losing followed by 5 years of Stanley Cup finals appearances.

Ottawa went through those brutal years in the mid-90s, trading away their stars like Yashin for some nobody defenseman and a future 1st rounder. At the time it was a disgrace, but in a few years that nobody defenceman was Zdeno Chara and that future 1st rounder was Jason Spezza. Fans like you insist on firing JFJ if he ever made a similar trade because you want playoffs playoffs playoffs every year. What do I want? Call me crazy but I want this team to lose, I want them to be a laughing stock for the next 5 years so that we can spend the next 10-15 years after that polishing the cup.

(p.s.... when I say "fans like you" it is not a personal attack, just a metaphor for the general consensus of thought among Leaf fans)

where did you come up with those allecations?

So because I said we are in a "WIN NOW" mode that means I would be upset if we traded away Sundin? Not a chance indeed I would have loved to see Sundin traded away at the past deadline for picks and players and also was fine with letting Tuckers contract run out and going a different route. The problem is that this team is never going to lose "terribly" like you say where the outcome would be us getting a top 5 pick that this franchise could build its future around. Havent you seen how this franchise works the past 2 seasons, they were both perfect scenario's to go into a full rebuild and trade away Mats/Tucker and let them lose alot of games and build the chances to draft a stud. The result was JFJ making patchwork deals at the deadline aquiring players like Yannick Perrault or Luke Richardson giving away picks in the process.

I would welcome a full out rebuild, but what is going on right now isnt close to rebuilding seeing the money we are spending on our blueline, the fact that we are close to resigning our declineing captain and the fact we traded away our best prospect for a average goalie. Me or you cant help the fact that the Leafs have put themselves in a win now mode and the most we can do is hope for the best next season because this team will never fully rebuild to the point it needs to 2 one day become legit contenders and draft major impact players.

#13 picks in the draft arent going to get you that far and ill take the playoffs each year and the chance to make a run (like Edmonton did) over panning the hopes of the future on some mediocre first round pick.

[juucer]

Nice post.

Unfortunately, as a Leaf fan, I couldn't agree more.


It's a sad state we're in... every year hoping at the last few games of the season that the Leafs will sneak into that 8th playoff spot. But we're going to need to get used to it, cause I don't see that changing any time soon.

[MAS]

I think a lot of us would accept a 5 year plan if we knew that there was a "plan" in place

which right now, I've been told there is (I know i sound like a complete hack saying that but two guys in the Leafs organization have told me this)

[Crowned]

For the first time in awhile, we've accumulated some young talent. We've got Wellwood, Steen, Stajan, Tlusty, Pogge, Kulmein, Stralman, White, Coliacovo, and whoever we draft this offseason (throw in a name like Couture, Hamill or Backlund). We also have some half decent 2nd tier prospects like Reimer, Earl, Aubin, Kronwall and Harrison.

We're not exactly 'thin' in youth, we're just missing that young star. Getting rid of the contracts JFJ has given out is not exactly a major concern, because I believe we can find takers for guys like McCabe, Kubina, Tucker and Sundin, while recieving some additional youth in exchange for Tucker and Sundin.

I think JFJ recieves too much slack for his inability to rebuild, when I truly believe he's quietly done so, proven by the list of names mentioned above. His two major mistakes were McCabe and Kubina, both of whom addressed an immediate weakness. I don't know if any of you recall what our defensive core looked like 2, 3, 4 seasons ago, we really did need defensive help, and the acquisition of Brian Leetch proves it.

As much as I currently dislike McCabe, he did deserve the contract he recieved. If you recall, before he recieved the contract, he was playing some good hockey. He was a member of Team Canada, and was recieving praise from hockey outlets across the country, as they labelled him as one of the best defenseman in the NHL. He was rapidly putting up points, and looked pretty good. If we didn't give him that contract, somebody else certainly would have. However, after he recieved the contract, his play slowly declined. Who's to blame for that? I think McCabe is. Someone on the roster needs to get this guy going, whether it's Sundin (his job), Maurice (ditto), or even Tucker. He needs to step it up. As for Kubina, well, he's overpaid...but didn't play too bad down the stretch.

I honestly don't think there's as much as an urgency as many of you are making it out to be. If guys like Kulemin, Stralman, Tlusty and Pogge were ready to play, and were as good as they're going to be, there'd be no complaints about the current roster, other than a few overpaid players.

Yes, Kubina needs to go. Yes, McCabe isn't earning his contract. Yes, Sundin is ready to retire. However, I REALLY do like our group of youth.

[mun]

I agree with the above post. The Leafs are starting to rebuild their depth but they lack young star power, especially at the forward positions. They do have a few good pieces on defence and in goal which is encouraging.

What about Tlusty? Does he have the potential to be a "star" in this league or is he another player like Steen or Stajan? A solid second or third line player.

[juucer]

I agree with the above post. The Leafs are starting to rebuild their depth but they lack young star power, especially at the forward positions. They do have a few good pieces on defence and in goal which is encouraging.

What about Tlusty? Does he have the potential to be a "star" in this league or is he another player like Steen or Stajan? A solid second or third line player.

Leafs picked him later than expected at #13, he was supposed to be gone by the 8th or 9th pick. Apparently he was considered a top 3/4 prospect but had a bad season his draft year which is why he dropped so much.

Not sure if he has star player potential, but I'm sure we'll find out in a few years.

[HaramKhore]

-= original quote snipped =-



Fans like me?

Buddy its totally UNEXCEPTABLE for a franchise that pulls in this much coin and has as big of a following to miss the playoffs 3 years in a row. Exactly like Kelso mentioned your comparison of the Leafs to that of the Pens/Philly/sens is terrible seeing all those teams were FULLY committed to rebuilding and all had top of the draft draft picks, which the Leafs havent had. If the Leafs were fully committed to rebuilding (meaning trading your older players on the decline like Mats for picks/young players) then I would support the movement and not care about the playoffs, but when you resign a ageing captain, dish out about 15 million to 3 guys on your blueline and trade the best prospect in your system for a average goalie you better damn well make the playoffs.

Its fans like you who buy into this crapshoot that MLSE is trying to feed the fans that they are rebuilding. Truth is they ARENT and they are trying to do this on the fly retool and so far it hasnt accomplished much (missing the playoffs and getting MEDIOCRE picks, unlike the Pens, Flyers, Sens) whos rebuilding process can be greatly attributed to high picks (Spezza, Crosby, Malkin, Stall, soon to be top 5 for Philly in this upcoming draft).

Those teams commited FULLY to rebuilding trading away older players or even all stars (Forsberg most recently to propell the rebuilding process) and this is something the Leafs just arent willing to do so there is no way you can call this REBUILDING. Sorry but id rather make the playoffs and have the chance to win a round or 2 then to miss out and be happy with picking up middle of the pack first rounders and call that rebuilding.

Its fans like you who buy into this junk that MLSE is selling that the Leafs are rebuiliding when they actually arent. You dont go out and sign a 5million a year defencemen to be your #3 if you are indeed rebuilding. Its fans like you who except losing and have hope towards the future solely on some mediocre prospects .

How is someone suppose to support a franchise and team that always screws there fans and never put the people in place that should be. Sorry Ill rather take Quinns sucess (consistant playoffs and winning some rounds with the chance to make a run) over some half assed retooling process that JFJ is running.

Where in his post did juucer suggest he was buying into a supposed rebuilding?

He merely suggested that the Leafs SHOULD rebuild.

[RapsVC15]

Sens fire their general manager after losing in the finals. Leafs sign Ferguson to an extension after missing the playoffs for the second straight year. Kind of shows whats important on Leaf land.