RealGM

vc_dunkchamp wrote:http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/228707

Damien Cox wrote a great article and pretty well sums up how I feel. The trade is not a bad one, but shows a lack of direction. All we've heard from Ferguson is how Raycroft is a number one and won 37 games. We all acknowledge that wasn't true and John addressed this, but at what expense. JFJ came here and said we needed to replenish the youth in the organization and then goes and pulls of this move. Because of indecisiveness from the board on hockey side, JFJ is forced to make moves on impulse to save his job.

Hindsight is 20/20, but the fact that we could have had Cheraponov or Esposito. Add him to Tlusty and we could have had a very nice young one-two punch coming up on the front line.

We're now in win now mode, only problem is we're not good enough. We're still borderline playoffs, 6-8 seed but still not a true contender and stuck with too many long-term locked in contracts on the back end.

Philadelphia had a fluke season with injuries and were just bad, but are setup nicely for the future. They had some nice young guys like Carter already, get the number two pick and made some good moves at the deadline last year and a great trade last week. They are probably in a position to fight for a playoff spot but probably have a brighter future.

The next three moves for Toronto, in no particular order

1. Deal Raycroft
2. Deal High $$$ D-Man (Kubina preferably)
3. Find a Winger for Sundin (via FA or Tade)

BlueJay_ wrote:This is a good deal and a very bad deal at the same time.

This is a good deal because it makes this team better immediately and strengthens a position that looked very weak going into next year and added some depth up front. The thing is tho, Toskala has never been a #1 goalie for a full season so its impossible to assume hes going to be a elite goalie because his numbers in 35 games a season lead you to believe that. Being a number one guy that has to play 65 games a season is a totally different thing then only being a backup and playing 35. He's also coming to a HUGE market that scrutinize's every little move and will get on him as soon as he has a bad stretch, so this doesnt leave much time for getting use to his new role as a #1.

Mark Bell is the wildcard in this trade and more then likely could be the deciding factor if it becomes a steal for Toronto or a Bust. He is still pretty young and has shown he can score, but after last season and being unable to perform when playing with the leagues best setup man, it really makes you wonder about his talent going forward. He does have top 6 forward potential and more, but he also was a guy who was a healthy scratch some nights last season because he just wasnt effective. He will need to rebound next season or else its really a 2 million dollar hit to the cap space that is not needed, especially right before going into free agency when we didnt have the most money to spend to start off with.

This is also a very bad deal because ever since John Ferguson Junior came on with the team, all we've heard is that he wants to restock the almost bare cuppboard of young talent and prospects. This move means that he has....traded.....

2004-

first round pick , second round pick

2005-

Tukka Rask (first rounder), second round pick

2007-

First rounder, 2nd rounder

2008-

second rounder for Perrault.

Now for someone saying he is trying to build towards the future and restock the prospect pool, it sure doesnt look like it when you look at the youth he has given up over the past 3 years. Essential we traded away Tukka Rask for what will be a backup goalie at best with us. You can think all you want, but the writing was on the wall when this trade was made that Vesa will be the number one and Raycroft the backup or even possibly dealt before the offseason is done. You dont trade away a #13 pick, a second rounder and a 4th for a goalie if you dont plan on him being your #1, thats just too much to give up if your best case scenario is a 2 man netminding tandem. So we basically traded away Tukka Rask (who was the best prospect we had in our system), a #13th overall pick, a 2nd rounder and a 4th for 2 goaltenders that have never proven they can be legit #1's in this league. The sad part is we could have signed a stop gap last season like Manny Legace to be our goalie for 2-3 years before Rask or Pogge was ready to make the jump.

We signed Raycroft to a extension before he ever played a single game for the Maple Leafs and now it looks like the same will be done with Toskala. Tell me exaclty how well that turned out the first time?. Does this trade make us a better team? sure, but we still arent anything close to legit contenders and seems like a pure stop gap move seeing Pogge has been billed as our goalie of the future for awhile and supposed to be given a shot in about 2 seasons. While we are out of the playoffs and dealing our high picks, teams like Anaheim (who won the championship), San Jose, Detroit(conference finalists and semi finalists) are all adding first Rounders to there already awesome teams and solid pipeline of prospects. How does that feel to a Leafs Fan? teams that are far better then us currently are adding players in the first round that will be the core of there team in 3-4-5 years while we trade them away for players that will prolly get us into the playoffs as a 5-8 seed?

This move we made shows that this team/franchise WILL never commit to rebuilding and will always opt for the short term fix over building your team the right way thru the draft and developing young players to be your future core.we've given up a **** of high picks for 2 goalies that are no gurantee will even be the answer to our goaltending woes and a team that is so bare prospect wise like the Leafs shouldnt be making these bold risks.

when you've missed the playoffs 2 years in a row and all you have to look forward to is Jiri Tlusty, Kulemin or Justin Pogge its not very promising seeing not one of them is a ELITE prospect.

youreachiteach wrote:

BlueJay_ wrote:This is a good deal and a very bad deal at the same time.

This is a good deal because it makes this team better immediately and strengthens a position that looked very weak going into next year and added some depth up front. The thing is tho, Toskala has never been a #1 goalie for a full season so its impossible to assume hes going to be a elite goalie because his numbers in 35 games a season lead you to believe that. Being a number one guy that has to play 65 games a season is a totally different thing then only being a backup and playing 35. He's also coming to a HUGE market that scrutinize's every little move and will get on him as soon as he has a bad stretch, so this doesnt leave much time for getting use to his new role as a #1.

Mark Bell is the wildcard in this trade and more then likely could be the deciding factor if it becomes a steal for Toronto or a Bust. He is still pretty young and has shown he can score, but after last season and being unable to perform when playing with the leagues best setup man, it really makes you wonder about his talent going forward. He does have top 6 forward potential and more, but he also was a guy who was a healthy scratch some nights last season because he just wasnt effective. He will need to rebound next season or else its really a 2 million dollar hit to the cap space that is not needed, especially right before going into free agency when we didnt have the most money to spend to start off with.

This is also a very bad deal because ever since John Ferguson Junior came on with the team, all we've heard is that he wants to restock the almost bare cuppboard of young talent and prospects. This move means that he has....traded.....

2004-

first round pick , second round pick

2005-

Tukka Rask (first rounder), second round pick

2007-

First rounder, 2nd rounder

2008-

second rounder for Perrault.

Now for someone saying he is trying to build towards the future and restock the prospect pool, it sure doesnt look like it when you look at the youth he has given up over the past 3 years. Essential we traded away Tukka Rask for what will be a backup goalie at best with us. You can think all you want, but the writing was on the wall when this trade was made that Vesa will be the number one and Raycroft the backup or even possibly dealt before the offseason is done. You dont trade away a #13 pick, a second rounder and a 4th for a goalie if you dont plan on him being your #1, thats just too much to give up if your best case scenario is a 2 man netminding tandem. So we basically traded away Tukka Rask (who was the best prospect we had in our system), a #13th overall pick, a 2nd rounder and a 4th for 2 goaltenders that have never proven they can be legit #1's in this league. The sad part is we could have signed a stop gap last season like Manny Legace to be our goalie for 2-3 years before Rask or Pogge was ready to make the jump.

We signed Raycroft to a extension before he ever played a single game for the Maple Leafs and now it looks like the same will be done with Toskala. Tell me exaclty how well that turned out the first time?. Does this trade make us a better team? sure, but we still arent anything close to legit contenders and seems like a pure stop gap move seeing Pogge has been billed as our goalie of the future for awhile and supposed to be given a shot in about 2 seasons. While we are out of the playoffs and dealing our high picks, teams like Anaheim (who won the championship), San Jose, Detroit(conference finalists and semi finalists) are all adding first Rounders to there already awesome teams and solid pipeline of prospects. How does that feel to a Leafs Fan? teams that are far better then us currently are adding players in the first round that will be the core of there team in 3-4-5 years while we trade them away for players that will prolly get us into the playoffs as a 5-8 seed?

This move we made shows that this team/franchise WILL never commit to rebuilding and will always opt for the short term fix over building your team the right way thru the draft and developing young players to be your future core.we've given up a **** of high picks for 2 goalies that are no gurantee will even be the answer to our goaltending woes and a team that is so bare prospect wise like the Leafs shouldnt be making these bold risks.

when you've missed the playoffs 2 years in a row and all you have to look forward to is Jiri Tlusty, Kulemin or Justin Pogge its not very promising seeing not one of them is a ELITE prospect.

....Says you.

Your rant is apropos of nothing. Yeah, we could've signed a stop gap measure and had him be average, and we could have had Tukka Rask be another Euro goalie who goes down too early and goes back too far in his net. Like...I don't know... the last Swedish back up goalie we had? And we could've kept more mid range first round picks that end up being---meh in last year's or this year's draft. Who knows? If all of these picks end up being stars, I guess you can chuckle or gag yourself. If not, who cares?

People can whine about Esposito, but there's a REASON he fell that far--mainly because most think he'll be the next Alexandre Daigle. If they're calling you that BEFORE you get to the NHL, you're in big trouble--new NHL or no New NHL. [b]The other prospect fell for a similar reason, obviously[/b].

The GM has an obvious plan too--he values goaltending and defencemen. I'd say that's a pretty smart plan. Raycroft had every chance to turn things around--coming home to Ontario, a former rookie goalie winner, it was a good bet. Rask maybe becomes something, maybe not. I wasn't that impressed with him at the worlds. He won;t be able to sit down on the puck that much when he goes up the organizational ladder.

Now, the GM is admitting Raycroft didn't work out by making the trade. That would be doing the opposite of what you think he is (being reactionary).

He is trying to correct the problem. But you are still so P*ssed about Rask you want to yammer on about not having a plan. He has ended up trading a mid rangy meh player (#13) and a prospect (goalie prospect, not exactly a sure thing) for what from all accounts of the new goalie is a number 1 goalie and a former top pick.

Sounds good to me!


The only reason Toskala didn't play that many games is a result of the goaltending glut San Jose had at that position (EXCELLENT GOALTENDING). Good for them. Their excess baggage is our number 1. They are gambling on a pick, like the leafs did with Raycroft.

The fact is you have no idea whether Pogge, Kulemin, or Tlusty will be elite or not...but you want to pass judgment on them already before they even start. The fact Tlusty almost made the freakin' LEAFS last training camp should dispel any notion that he is not bonafide. Kulemin's praise has been sung big time in the Russian league all year long, and he's not far away either.

Pogge is playing with the Marlies and is still several years away (at LEAST 2) from contributing at this level. At least he plays a semi-stand up style and comes from a great hockey system in Calgary. I'd have bet on him over Rask too.

Whatever. Just don't go ragging on the GM for not having a plan. We have plenty of young players (or players just coming into their prime) that we are developing right now (Wellwood, Steen, Antro, Poni, Kulemin, Tlusty, Williams, Bell) . What the team needed most was goaltending. Not more youth and skaters who can't shoot.
The team has a glut of defenceman who can move the puck. At some point, these are going to be turned into offensive prospects. And then you'll see "the PLAN" really wasn't that dumb.

By the way, next time you whine about offensive prospects, how about seeing how far Pittsburgh went with all their "elite" prospects? Not far at all.
It's interesting JFJ is targeting tough smallish wingers who can't be moved off the puck...hmmm...I guess he's just taking ideas out of thin air there...

BlueJay_ wrote:

youreachiteach wrote:

BlueJay_ wrote:This is a good deal and a very bad deal at the same time.

This is a good deal because it makes this team better immediately and strengthens a position that looked very weak going into next year and added some depth up front. The thing is tho, Toskala has never been a #1 goalie for a full season so its impossible to assume hes going to be a elite goalie because his numbers in 35 games a season lead you to believe that. Being a number one guy that has to play 65 games a season is a totally different thing then only being a backup and playing 35. He's also coming to a HUGE market that scrutinize's every little move and will get on him as soon as he has a bad stretch, so this doesnt leave much time for getting use to his new role as a #1.

Mark Bell is the wildcard in this trade and more then likely could be the deciding factor if it becomes a steal for Toronto or a Bust. He is still pretty young and has shown he can score, but after last season and being unable to perform when playing with the leagues best setup man, it really makes you wonder about his talent going forward. He does have top 6 forward potential and more, but he also was a guy who was a healthy scratch some nights last season because he just wasnt effective. He will need to rebound next season or else its really a 2 million dollar hit to the cap space that is not needed, especially right before going into free agency when we didnt have the most money to spend to start off with.

This is also a very bad deal because ever since John Ferguson Junior came on with the team, all we've heard is that he wants to restock the almost bare cuppboard of young talent and prospects. This move means that he has....traded.....

2004-

first round pick , second round pick

2005-

Tukka Rask (first rounder), second round pick

2007-

First rounder, 2nd rounder

2008-

second rounder for Perrault.

Now for someone saying he is trying to build towards the future and restock the prospect pool, it sure doesnt look like it when you look at the youth he has given up over the past 3 years. Essential we traded away Tukka Rask for what will be a backup goalie at best with us. You can think all you want, but the writing was on the wall when this trade was made that Vesa will be the number one and Raycroft the backup or even possibly dealt before the offseason is done. You dont trade away a #13 pick, a second rounder and a 4th for a goalie if you dont plan on him being your #1, thats just too much to give up if your best case scenario is a 2 man netminding tandem. So we basically traded away Tukka Rask (who was the best prospect we had in our system), a #13th overall pick, a 2nd rounder and a 4th for 2 goaltenders that have never proven they can be legit #1's in this league. The sad part is we could have signed a stop gap last season like Manny Legace to be our goalie for 2-3 years before Rask or Pogge was ready to make the jump.

We signed Raycroft to a extension before he ever played a single game for the Maple Leafs and now it looks like the same will be done with Toskala. Tell me exaclty how well that turned out the first time?. Does this trade make us a better team? sure, but we still arent anything close to legit contenders and seems like a pure stop gap move seeing Pogge has been billed as our goalie of the future for awhile and supposed to be given a shot in about 2 seasons. While we are out of the playoffs and dealing our high picks, teams like Anaheim (who won the championship), San Jose, Detroit(conference finalists and semi finalists) are all adding first Rounders to there already awesome teams and solid pipeline of prospects. How does that feel to a Leafs Fan? teams that are far better then us currently are adding players in the first round that will be the core of there team in 3-4-5 years while we trade them away for players that will prolly get us into the playoffs as a 5-8 seed?

This move we made shows that this team/franchise WILL never commit to rebuilding and will always opt for the short term fix over building your team the right way thru the draft and developing young players to be your future core.we've given up a **** of high picks for 2 goalies that are no gurantee will even be the answer to our goaltending woes and a team that is so bare prospect wise like the Leafs shouldnt be making these bold risks.

when you've missed the playoffs 2 years in a row and all you have to look forward to is Jiri Tlusty, Kulemin or Justin Pogge its not very promising seeing not one of them is a ELITE prospect.

....Says you.

Your rant is apropos of nothing. Yeah, we could've signed a stop gap measure and had him be average, and we could have had Tukka Rask be another Euro goalie who goes down too early and goes back too far in his net. Like...I don't know... the last Swedish back up goalie we had? And we could've kept more mid range first round picks that end up being---meh in last year's or this year's draft. Who knows? If all of these picks end up being stars, I guess you can chuckle or gag yourself. If not, who cares?

People can whine about Esposito, but there's a REASON he fell that far--mainly because most think he'll be the next Alexandre Daigle. If they're calling you that BEFORE you get to the NHL, you're in big trouble--new NHL or no New NHL. [b]The other prospect fell for a similar reason, obviously[/b].

The GM has an obvious plan too--he values goaltending and defencemen. I'd say that's a pretty smart plan. Raycroft had every chance to turn things around--coming home to Ontario, a former rookie goalie winner, it was a good bet. Rask maybe becomes something, maybe not. I wasn't that impressed with him at the worlds. He won;t be able to sit down on the puck that much when he goes up the organizational ladder.

Now, the GM is admitting Raycroft didn't work out by making the trade. That would be doing the opposite of what you think he is (being reactionary).

He is trying to correct the problem. But you are still so P*ssed about Rask you want to yammer on about not having a plan. He has ended up trading a mid rangy meh player (#13) and a prospect (goalie prospect, not exactly a sure thing) for what from all accounts of the new goalie is a number 1 goalie and a former top pick.

Sounds good to me!


The only reason Toskala didn't play that many games is a result of the goaltending glut San Jose had at that position (EXCELLENT GOALTENDING). Good for them. Their excess baggage is our number 1. They are gambling on a pick, like the leafs did with Raycroft.

The fact is you have no idea whether Pogge, Kulemin, or Tlusty will be elite or not...but you want to pass judgment on them already before they even start. The fact Tlusty almost made the freakin' LEAFS last training camp should dispel any notion that he is not bonafide. Kulemin's praise has been sung big time in the Russian league all year long, and he's not far away either.

Pogge is playing with the Marlies and is still several years away (at LEAST 2) from contributing at this level. At least he plays a semi-stand up style and comes from a great hockey system in Calgary. I'd have bet on him over Rask too.

Whatever. Just don't go ragging on the GM for not having a plan. We have plenty of young players (or players just coming into their prime) that we are developing right now (Wellwood, Steen, Antro, Poni, Kulemin, Tlusty, Williams, Bell) . What the team needed most was goaltending. Not more youth and skaters who can't shoot.
The team has a glut of defenceman who can move the puck. At some point, these are going to be turned into offensive prospects. And then you'll see "the PLAN" really wasn't that dumb.

By the way, next time you whine about offensive prospects, how about seeing how far Pittsburgh went with all their "elite" prospects? Not far at all.
It's interesting JFJ is targeting tough smallish wingers who can't be moved off the puck...hmmm...I guess he's just taking ideas out of thin air there...

-Those mid range picks dont need to turn out to be all stars to support my point that this franchise has no regard for building for the future and building from within(which was JFJ's plan). How come you dont see more GM's trading there first rounders on the first day of the draft to make there team better immediately? Maybe because those other GM's see the BIG picture and realize that yes dealing for some immediate help will make them a better team today, but in many cases will hurt more in the longterm (go see Leetch, Perrault, Rask/Raycroft trades).

--Or maybe because they didn't need goaltending?


-No, the other player (Cherapanov) didnt fall for the same reasons that Esposito did. He fell that far because 1.) the NHL has no transfer agreement with the russian hockey federation and have no gurantee that player they draft will ever come over to play for there team. He also fell because many scouts feel he isnt strong enough to be effective at the NHL level. Esposito fell due to attitude concerns and ability to play in both ends of the ice.

--Bottom line he fell for a reason--whether that is because he was overrated or not. IOf you can't sign him, all the talent inthe world is a pretty iffy pick anyway. "Isn't strong enough to be effective?" Gee, I wonder why he fell?

- You can view that trade in a positive light if youd like, but alot of people will disagree and say it wasnt a good trade from the outset in that we traded away our teams best prospect in Rask for a goalie that was relegated to a 3rd stringer with Boston and was one of the worst statistical goalies that year. People love to hold onto this "Raycroft won a Calder trophy" excuse to give them a reason for backing the trade. We obviously saw last season that his play is closer to a 3rd stringer then it is to a Calder trophy winner.

---It was a risk, it didn't work. Rask must turn out to be better than a second stringer or the trade is even.

-Wanna tell me exactly what JFJ's plan is? Because all he has been saying since he came on with the team and ever since is that he wants to fully rebuild the lacking prospect pool, build from within, value draft picks and developing young talent. Trading a first round pick in consectutive years for 2 goalies that had never proved they can be a legit #1 in the league and play 60 games doesnt seem like hes sticking to his play now does it? He traded away a 2nd round pick and Brendan Bell for a 15-20 game rental in Yannick Perrault who was totally useless for the most part. Does that sound like he is sticking to his plan? I believed he did have a plan, but after the trade he made this weekend, it goes against everything that he was telling the fans from the beginning.

--It's obvious he is trying to correct the goaltending and defence. He signs big/and or mobile defenceman, goes with a defensive minded coach, trades from a pltheora of goaltending prospects for a goalie two years straight. The plan is...get good goaltending and defence...you know, like Anaheim.

-Great I applaud him for attempting to correct his prior mistake, but he we stand again trading valuable draft picks in trades that are a risk. So if this Toskala trade busts and we are left with a hole in net again next season, are you going to supprt JFJ trading our first rounder next season in attempt to find another goalie? How many mulligans does this guy get?

---He gets plenty if Rask busts and Toskala performs like he has throuhout his career-

Toskala has never played more then 40 games, regardless of the circumstances, my point is that even though he looks very solid in the 35 games he plays a season you still cant draw the conclusion it will automatically translate into him being a effective #1 goalie that is asked to play 55-60 games a year. He played in front of one of the best defences in the league, so who knows how he will be when all the sudden he has to play with having one of the worst (Leafs).

--The Leafs defence is not the problem when you chart the percentage of shots given up--Raycroft was the problem and you know it. And besides, half the team's defence was out with injuries half the year anyway.

-Your right I have no idea if they will be elite or not but the chances of a prospect that wasnt expected to become a elite is much smaller then a prospect that WAS expected to become elite. Tlusty didnt almost make the team, he looked solid in the few games he played but the Leafs were never seriously considering him playing for them last season. On this thought wanna tell me how great Tlusty played with his OHL team? Didnt look too elite if you ask me.

- Tlusty looked good enough to score plenty. Give the guy a year to adapt to the culture why don't you?

Kulemin looks like a steal and could be a good player, but so what every team has players in there system that have potential to become very and almost all organizations can say they at least have ONE legit elite prospect going forward be it a current young player (Getzlaf, Radulov, Ovechkin, Crosby, Vanek, Stall, Parise) or prosects like Eric Johnson, Jack Johnson, Nicolas Backstrom etc and the Leafs dont have either.

--So, you admit he already is a great prospect

-You think Pogge will be better then Rask? Thats great I'll take scouts and professionals word and projection anyday of yours and they all seem to think Rask is the better prospect with higher potential. Leaf fans also sang this same tune all year last season saying Pogge is better then Carey Price and this season certainly hasnt given them much steam to use to that argument.

--What has Carey Price ever done? Pogge was also in his first season of pro hockey. Give me a break.

-every team has plenty of young players in the new NHL that are on there team and developing, so I dont see how thats much of a plan. Problem is that almost 85% of all these other teams who are developing there youngguns have better prospects then us so the plan seems pretty mediocre. So youve talked to Ferguson and he has told you that hes going to move one of his defencemen for a offensive prospect? Thats interesting and as much as that could be "HIS" plan, that doesnt mean another GM will ablige and give him a offensive prospect for JFJ's defencemen.

--The point is, he is trying to create a mix of youth and veterans with a focus on D and goaltending--one of the leaf's worst problems year in and year out with Quinn. Defencemen are better assets than forwards, ask Montreal about that

- "Not more youth and skaters who can't shoot"......so your sayin every player available at #13 was someone who couldnt shoot?

[b]--Not strong enough, couldn't be signed...whatever.

Haha thats funny.[/b]
- "By the way, next time you whine about offensive prospects, how about seeing how far Pittsburgh went with all their "elite" prospects? Not far at all"

^^^That is prolly the silliest part of your whole post. Crosby has been in the league 2 years, Malkin was a rookie, along with Stall, did you really expect them to go from a bottom feeder the previous year to a team that steamrolled through the playoffs? I gurantee this team and there "elite prospects" will be one/if not the best team in the East going forward and have success in the playoffs. Its foolish to use a one year example of them losing to the eventual eastern conference finalists as your argument.

--The point is, that team is built like Ottawa, a lot of p*ssy skaters who excel in the regular season and don't win when it counts in the playoffs. How many more seasons of "almost" will you be arguiing when Crosby, Stall and their no defensive prospect team get bounced next year too? Yes, they had Roberts...but he's done anyway. And he was probably their best forward. Crosby is a crybaby wuss and Malkin is a cocky Jason Spezza clone. Not gonna get it done. I'll take goaltending, grit and defence for 500, Alex. JFJ is building like Anaheim is--without having to gut the team first.

JFJ has traded 3 first rounders, 4 second rounders in about 3.5 years of work and in the process had his team on the outside looking in with the playoffs.

what kind of plan is that?

--Oh sure, the guy comes in in a year when the whole league changes its policy after a lockout and he's supposed to operate the franchise right away like a small market club--blow it up and pray for prospect rain. He tried to address the back end last year, and Raycroft screwed him for his suppport. If Toskala shines and Rask does nothing, I'll be waiting to serve your crow pie cold. When they make the playoffs and go three rounds are you gonna change your tune?

BlueJay_ wrote:Who cares if the other GM's didnt need goalies, do you think every GM has a perfect team with no flaws and couldnt improve the team by trading away its first and getting some immediate help? The difference is the good GM's see the big picture and realize its just not about today, but also tomorrow.

--And they also didn't need a goalie. Great teams have goalies, don'tcha know?

He fell mostly because of conditions that are out of his control, every single scout analyst said Cherpanov had as much upside and talent as anyone in the draft. Stop trying to downplay the players who fell or the strenght of the draft to jusitfy JFJ trading away his first rounder.

--who cares why? He wasn't going to be drafted high and isn't usable.
That wont be a problem Rask will be a #1 goalie and youll see how bad this trade really was. This doesnt suprise me seeing your obviously a Pogge fanboy and somehow love to downplay him as a goaltender.

--And you're obviously a hockey news prospects fanboy. To each his own.

Too bad the Leafs are nothing like the Ducks, the Ducks have guys who are solid in there own end and, good outlet passers and dont give the puck up like its on fire. He didnt just trade from a pletora of goaltending prospects, he also traded away a first , second and 4th rounder and a guy who has never been a #1 and had to take on a 2 million cap space hit with a player who couldnt even produce while playing with the Best playmaking center in the world and the reigning rocket richard trophy winner. The money would be much better suited spent on a UFA on July 1st and now with having to take on Bell we only have around 4.5 million and not enough to go after any of the bigtime UFA's like Smyth, Gomez, Briere, Drury.

--Uh, no one to move the puck? Kaberle, Kubina (who, by the way, are signed at favorable prices given the state of the salary cap and the signings that will take place this year. McCabe also, but yes, he has his share of giveaways. When half the team isn't injured and he doesn't have to play 30 minutes a game, maybe he'll produce better. Joe Thornton, for all his rave reviews, is a more expensive version of Ryan Smyth--he can't shoot and is basically a power forward in a centres body. That's nice and all if you want to drag the puck into the net, but playmaking superskilled he isn't.
Tlusty scored 13 goals in 37 games....Yep that sure sounds like he scored plenty.

--What did you want...50 in 37? Please. In his first year playing North Amercian Hockey? Get Real. 13 goals shows great promise.

Kulemin great prospect? He's a steal for where he was drafted but he isnt close to what youd call a great prospect. That is reserved for guys who are usually at least one of the 30 best prospects outside the NHL.

--Hockey News fanboy prattle again. He has GRIT, you know, what Anaheims prospects have,.

Price only lead his team to a championship in his first season where he won playoff MVP, while Pogge looked very average to decent the whole season. Point is Leafs fans always try to downplay other teams goalies or prospects they have traded away to make there own (Pogge) look better. I guess hockey futures the #1 respected prospect ranking site must be wrong rating Pogge so much lower then Rask eh?

--Let me guess....Montreal fanboy too? I don't care what he did in the A in what his like 3rd season? We'll see about Pogge. He plays a style conducive to winning.

Im not talking about was his idea of a on ice product is, Im talking about what is his plan for the future (you know that thing that most GM;s think about, not just how much you can give up to get your team a 8th seed). But Its understandable your response, seeing this team has NO plan for the future and this was one if not the biggest selling point from JFJ ever since he came on board.

--I'm talking about a defence first plan, and you're talking a Los Angeles Clippers overhaul strategy. Thanks, but no thanks. The Leafs have some pieces. Next year they can trade Sundin for some value picks after the playoffs are done. Or, he can retire and they can focus on a hockey team, not draft central. It's not the only way to succeed.

Lars Eller wasnt strong enough and couldnt be signed? Hmm thats news to me.

--Lars Eller wasn't considered by many on the boards I visited to be an outstanding prospect.

Your comparison of Ottawa to Pittsburgh is Hilarious to start. Ottawa physically dominated all teams on there way thru the Eastern Conference run playing amazing team defence and getting very good goaltending, just what you said the Leafs are trying to be built around. All your doing is taking there performance agains a much stronger/experianced Ducks team and drawing the conclusion that they are pussies. What does that say for the rest of the East that was steamrolled and physically overwhelmed by a so called pussy Ottawa team. Will Pittsburgh win a cup with offensive minded players who dont play physical? who knows but it wouldnt be the first time. Id much rather take my chances with there "elite prospects" who apparently are babies/pussies and cant play defence over a capped out Leafs team with no elite level prospects, a ageing captain and a defence core that is a mistake waiting to happen in the own zone (Raycroft was ****, but his defence core left him out to dry most of the season).

--Ottawa physically dominated? Please...with that p*ssy trap they play? They're all about offence from the defence--which the leafs also have. I'd love to see them play us with a half decent goalie and a healthy team next year. Pittsburgh is built the same way. All prospects and no grit. Welcome to second round hell. And Anaheim, experienced? Outside the defence core, they were playing their rookies the most minutes!! It was the forechecking that killed p*ssy Ottawa, like always. Buffallo hardly counts as compeititon, they are the same speed demon team with fewer scorers.

He also screwed up signing Kubina to a way overpriced contract for a #3 defencemen. Almost all of his moves have been terrible from the Lindros Signing, to the Khavanov signing, to the Perrault trade, to the Rask/Raycroft trade etc etc.

--The man won a Stanley Cup...I think he deserved a raise. And, by the way, his contract ain't looking to bad right around now.

Playoffs and 3 rounds? is this happening in this life time? dont think , but ill glady own up to it and say JFJ did a good job, but the problem is he isnt going to be around much longer if at all after this season.

--maybe, maybe not. The ax falls quickly in this league if you're successful or not. Look at Muckler.

BlueJay_ wrote:Good GM's just dont trade high picks to fills holes and at the end of the day say well we improved so its a good deal automatically. Lots of teams are in need of defencemen or forwards, but you dont see GM's hurrying to throw away picks just to get some short term fix in that area.

--Goalies are more important than forwards....newsflash.

You first said Esposito fell because hes said to be the next Daigle and then you went onto say Cherapanov fell for the same reason which was totally wrong.

--No, you interpreted that. I meant they both fell for a reason. The fact their reasons are different has no relevance to my argument,

Not a hocknews fanboy whatsoever, but these people do this stuff for a living and have a MUCH better idea of a prospect and there current level and potential then YOU do. Again Ill take there projections and ratings anyday over some bias Leafs/Justin Pogge/jfj fanboy.

--Whatever, believe what you want. We'll see.

so Kaberle/Kubina can move the puck, neither is exceptional in there own end when the other team has control of the puck. Anaheim is built with defencemen who are very good at taking care of the puck, using the body well and not caughing the puck and you cant say the same about the Leafs D as a whole. The Ducks strenght on the blueline is being able to play without the puck and take care of it when you have it and these traits arent very evident in the current leafs core.

--the leafs allowed one of the fewest amounts of shots in the league. if that soesn't amount to solid defensive play, i don't know what is. The leafs use the body just fine.

Thats great Kulemin has Grit, he still isnt a great prospect like your trying to call him.

--That's not what the Russian elite league is saying

"Lars Eller wasn't considered by many on the boards I visited to be an outstanding prospect"

well no one that was ranked at #13 going into the draft was considered a outstanding prospect (not Hamill, or Sutter, Couture) but the kid can still put the puck in the net and you claimed that there wasnt anyone available in that range that could.
--no I claimed he wasn't outstanding. Who knows how he will do? It is you who are ju,mping to conclusions to support your argument. Bottom line, he's not elite, and you are arguing we lost out big time athat position.

Ottawa has No grit? Phillips, Volchenkov, Fisher, Neil, Schubert, Kelly. They dont have as much as the Ducks do (which hardly any team does) but to say they have no overall grit is wrong. Buffalo has fewer scorers then Ottawa? Briere, Vanek, Drury, Afinoganov, Pominville. They might not have the top 3 heavy scoring that Ottawa does, but they certainly have more scorers and depth at scoring the the Sens. Yep Ottawa pretty much pushed around Pitts, NJ and Buffalo on there way to the finals.

--Pittsburgh, no toughness anyway.
Buffalo, tough but very small and not much legitimate goal scoring talent. Yes, they have the speed, which is exactly what I said. Just like Ottawa but without the snipers. By the way, Briere is opting out. I wonder why. They are more like insect pests than "gritty".
New Jersey sucked most of the year and has NO ofensive talent and plays the same trap (and is also small as h*ll). Yippee, Ottawa was the best of the trap teams. Look how tough they were. Please. And Phillips is as soft as downy, and the others are goons, not GRIT. The only player i'd want is Fisher. The rest are goons with little talent (outside of Phillips and Fisher).

He deserved a raise? then how come his own GM Jay Feaster was only offering him 3 million a season and this is from the guy who knows his game best. Sure his deal might look a little more financially acceptable, but its still overkill to have your #3 defencemen whos main strenghts lie on the powerplay where he wont get any time on this team making 5 million $

--I don't know what is overkill. I thought we had a bad defence and needed help in this area? Or are you admitting we have a good defence. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Yeah, the Lightning, cheapskates that they are, sent him packing. And...guess where they are now? Oh yeah, no where to be seen defensively..

How are you using Mucker as a example? He took his team to the finals. If your going be this logic that because his team didnt win the cup, then why does Darcy Regier still have a job? Muckler was fired because he and Murray didnt see eye to eye and even Melnyk had his beefs with a few of the moves Muckler made last season.

--my point was, knucklehead, that success or failure doesn't really decide whether a GM gets fired...his relationship with the owners does. But thanks for explaining my point more clearly for me though.

I found this funny..

"I'm talking about a defence first plan, and you're talking a Los Angeles Clippers overhaul strategy. Thanks, but no thanks. The Leafs have some pieces. Next year they can trade Sundin for some value picks after the playoffs are done. Or, he can retire and they can focus on a hockey team, not draft central. It's not the only way to succeed"

Since when does valueing your future (like even the best teams do) equal being the equilvalent on the Los Angelas clippers. Where did I advocate the Leafs tanking and aiming for a top overall pick. The Stanley Cup champions traded Shane O Brien last season for a first round draft pick because they were looking towards the future. SJ traded away a valuable backup goalie because they were looking towards the future. Since when does my displeasure with the Leafs continually giving up picks have to do with having some sort of obsession with being bad (Clippers).

--Do you know how long Ottawa tanked and sucked before they were credible contenders (they still aren't)? The old Nordiques/Avalanche? Pittsburgh? Look, it's all well and good to sit back and try to acquire assets, but it's not the only way to manage a team. And frankly, given the rate assets turn out into actual players, it's not that great a strategy. We get it, The GM should blow it all up and wait for 4 or 5 years for the next Gretzky. Good luck with that. Perhaps your strategy works eventually or maybe it doesn't, but more often than not, your team ends up a collection of whiny me first debutantes that rarely win the big one--unless they have...drum roll...great goaltending. I'll take a toskala over some average goal scorer from junior and a guy I can't sign and a alex daigle clone. But that's just me.

While the Leafs miss the playoffs and trade away picks teams like Anaheim, SJ, Ott seem to be very successfull and add young draft picks to there system at the same time. Why cant the Leafs be like that? Looks like some GM's have accustomned themselves alot bettter with how to be successfull in the new cap world then others.

youreachiteach wrote:

BlueJay_ wrote:Good GM's just dont trade high picks to fills holes and at the end of the day say well we improved so its a good deal automatically. Lots of teams are in need of defencemen or forwards, but you dont see GM's hurrying to throw away picks just to get some short term fix in that area.

--Goalies are more important than forwards....newsflash.

I never disputed this but the fact remains that you never see GM's consecutively throwing away picks just to fill holes for the shortterm. Big picture thingy, somthing this franchise cant/wont grasp.

You first said Esposito fell because hes said to be the next Daigle and then you went onto say Cherapanov fell for the same reason which was totally wrong.

--No, you interpreted that. I meant they both fell for a reason. The fact their reasons are different has no relevance to my argument,

Nope, you clearly implied that they both fell for the SAME reasons when actually Cherapanov's fall was mostly due to the Cananda/Russia hockey relationship.

Not a hocknews fanboy whatsoever, but these people do this stuff for a living and have a MUCH better idea of a prospect and there current level and potential then YOU do. Again Ill take there projections and ratings anyday over some bias Leafs/Justin Pogge/jfj fanboy.

--Whatever, believe what you want. We'll see.

Good to see you agree.

so Kaberle/Kubina can move the puck, neither is exceptional in there own end when the other team has control of the puck. Anaheim is built with defencemen who are very good at taking care of the puck, using the body well and not caughing the puck and you cant say the same about the Leafs D as a whole. The Ducks strenght on the blueline is being able to play without the puck and take care of it when you have it and these traits arent very evident in the current leafs core.

--the leafs allowed one of the fewest amounts of shots in the league. if that soesn't amount to solid defensive play, i don't know what is. The leafs use the body just fine.

You cant use that argument the definitive to a good defensive team. The TB Lightning allowed less hots per game then the Leafs and you just finished saying how bad a defensive team they are. Ya the Leafs use the body fine, and they take hooking/interferance/tripping penalties in the process doing it. McCabe uses his body great, too bad he cant do it without getting sent to the box.

Thats great Kulemin has Grit, he still isnt a great prospect like your trying to call him.

--That's not what the Russian elite league is saying

The Russian League will always hype up its players, I guess Hockey futures must be out to lunch on this one huh . Good prospect? Yes, Great prospect? No.

"Lars Eller wasn't considered by many on the boards I visited to be an outstanding prospect"

well no one that was ranked at #13 going into the draft was considered a outstanding prospect (not Hamill, or Sutter, Couture) but the kid can still put the puck in the net and you claimed that there wasnt anyone available in that range that could.
--no I claimed he wasn't outstanding. Who knows how he will do? It is you who are ju,mping to conclusions to support your argument. Bottom line, he's not elite, and you are arguing we lost out big time athat position.

No you said this team needed Goaltending , not someone who couldnt shoot. To me that is implying that nonone around #13 could become a goal scorer.....which is wrong again.

Ottawa has No grit? Phillips, Volchenkov, Fisher, Neil, Schubert, Kelly. They dont have as much as the Ducks do (which hardly any team does) but to say they have no overall grit is wrong. Buffalo has fewer scorers then Ottawa? Briere, Vanek, Drury, Afinoganov, Pominville. They might not have the top 3 heavy scoring that Ottawa does, but they certainly have more scorers and depth at scoring the the Sens. Yep Ottawa pretty much pushed around Pitts, NJ and Buffalo on there way to the finals.

--Pittsburgh, no toughness anyway.
Buffalo, tough but very small and not much legitimate goal scoring talent. Yes, they have the speed, which is exactly what I said. Just like Ottawa but without the snipers. By the way, Briere is opting out. I wonder why. They are more like insect pests than "gritty".
New Jersey sucked most of the year and has NO ofensive talent and plays the same trap (and is also small as h*ll). Yippee, Ottawa was the best of the trap teams. Look how tough they were. Please. And Phillips is as soft as downy, and the others are goons, not GRIT. The only player i'd want is Fisher. The rest are goons with little talent (outside of Phillips and Fisher).

what a off base paragraph. No legimate goal scoring on the Sabres? They have 4 thirty goal scorers and 7 twenty goal scorers....but yep they have no legitimate goal scoring. Briere isnt "opting" out , his contract has run dry meaning he is a UFA, not opting out. Even so theres still no gurantee Briere doesnt return to Buffalo if Drury ends up leaving also. NJ sucked for most of the year? How come they finished 2nd in the East then? That makes alot of sense. Phillips is soft? This is a obvious statement by either a jealous fan or someone who lacks hockey sense (Phillips is far from soft). Volchenkov is one of the best shutdown defencemen in the game, hard hitter and a champ at blocking shots. So a team like Ottawa doesnt have as much grit as a team like the Ducks, who cares its much easier to go out and find grit/toughness to add to your team then to try to find a superstar/first line winger like the Leafs need.

He deserved a raise? then how come his own GM Jay Feaster was only offering him 3 million a season and this is from the guy who knows his game best. Sure his deal might look a little more financially acceptable, but its still overkill to have your #3 defencemen whos main strenghts lie on the powerplay where he wont get any time on this team making 5 million $

--I don't know what is overkill. I thought we had a bad defence and needed help in this area? Or are you admitting we have a good defence. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Yeah, the Lightning, cheapskates that they are, sent him packing. And...guess where they are now? Oh yeah, no where to be seen defensively..

Overkill is where you have too much of something. Is Kubina a decent to good player? Yes but he certainly isnt worth 5 million dollars on our team especially when hes relegated to being a #3 guy and hardly seeing any PP time at all (where his true strenght lies). No this Leafs team WASNT a good defensive team last year. You can blame it on Raycroft all you want but the guy was left out to dry on numerous occasions having his defence give the puck away on a platter for the other teams.....and this is coming from a guy who hated Raycroft and wanted he gone for this season. Funny you bash the Lightning defence and say "there no where defensively now". Hilarious seeing they were able to have a better team GAA, while having 2 goalies that were worse then Raycroft and a team with supposedly a terrible blueline.

How are you using Mucker as a example? He took his team to the finals. If your going be this logic that because his team didnt win the cup, then why does Darcy Regier still have a job? Muckler was fired because he and Murray didnt see eye to eye and even Melnyk had his beefs with a few of the moves Muckler made last season.

--my point was, knucklehead, that success or failure doesn't really decide whether a GM gets fired...his relationship with the owners does. But thanks for explaining my point more clearly for me though.

Hmm resorting to personal attacks now I see. Thanks for clearing that up, I always wondered why JFJ still had a job after 2 seasons without making the playoffs while still spending to the cap.

I found this funny..

"I'm talking about a defence first plan, and you're talking a Los Angeles Clippers overhaul strategy. Thanks, but no thanks. The Leafs have some pieces. Next year they can trade Sundin for some value picks after the playoffs are done. Or, he can retire and they can focus on a hockey team, not draft central. It's not the only way to succeed"

Since when does valueing your future (like even the best teams do) equal being the equilvalent on the Los Angelas clippers. Where did I advocate the Leafs tanking and aiming for a top overall pick. The Stanley Cup champions traded Shane O Brien last season for a first round draft pick because they were looking towards the future. SJ traded away a valuable backup goalie because they were looking towards the future. Since when does my displeasure with the Leafs continually giving up picks have to do with having some sort of obsession with being bad (Clippers).

--Do you know how long Ottawa tanked and sucked before they were credible contenders (they still aren't)? The old Nordiques/Avalanche? Pittsburgh? Look, it's all well and good to sit back and try to acquire assets, but it's not the only way to manage a team. And frankly, given the rate assets turn out into actual players, it's not that great a strategy. We get it, The GM should blow it all up and wait for 4 or 5 years for the next Gretzky. Good luck with that. Perhaps your strategy works eventually or maybe it doesn't, but more often than not, your team ends up a collection of whiny me first debutantes that rarely win the big one--unless they have...drum roll...great goaltending. I'll take a toskala over some average goal scorer from junior and a guy I can't sign and a alex daigle clone. But that's just me.

If your team miss's the playoffs 2 seasons in a row while having spent all the way to the cap, it should be a obvious thing that your team needs to rebuild (meaning HOLDING onto your draft picks, not spending all your cap space on long term deals and developing your young players). This concept is obviously a foreign language to the Leafs and will always widdle in mediocricy because they think they can buy/trade/sign there way to a cup. That doesnt work in the new NHL and it will be the teams build from within like the Ducks , Sharks, Sabres are doing. I chuckle when a team who won the cup had enough forseight to trade away a young player for a first rounder, but a team that finished in 9th in the East is trading there picks away for some short term fix that will get them a one playoff round win at best.......its suppose to be the other way around, the already good teams can afford to throw away picks to stay on top and still contend, while the teams who dont make the playoffs are suppose to use the draft as there way of building there team for the future. You might like this Toskala deal TODAY, but I gurantee in 5 years when we have no superstar, a pack of Mediocre prospects, youll look back and say what a horrible job JFJ did seeing he majorly mortgaged the future for some 8th seed push.

While the Leafs miss the playoffs and trade away picks teams like Anaheim, SJ, Ott seem to be very successfull and add young draft picks to there system at the same time. Why cant the Leafs be like that? Looks like some GM's have accustomned themselves alot bettter with how to be successfull in the new cap world then others.

--Now Anaheim gets included, huh? They ACQUIRED the pieces that won. Neidermeyer and Pronger and the goalie won them the cup (That and the fact Ottawa is immune to hitting anything or taking a hit without cheapshotting or taking a penalty (Neil/Volchenkov) or simply firing the puck at defenseless players. Yeah, a real tough bunch, those Senators. And he HAS been acquiring talent at the same time...read what I wrote. You just don't happen to like them. What do YOU know?

So Pronger and Niedermayer were traded/signed for , what does that have to do with the Ducks knowing how to build a team the right way. Im pretty sure the ducks made it to the cup finals a few years back and loss to the Devils without Pronger/Niedermayer and they still continued to build up there prospect pool after drafting and developing guys like Getzlaf, Perry that have becomea big reason why they are sucessfull today. You didnt see them trading away picks after there sucess for more sucess. Burke is smart and he saw his team last season was on the brink on a ship and he traded away Lupol etc for Pronger and it was a good move. Trading away your teams picks consecutively when your out of the playoffs is not smart. Have fun with this treadmill Leafs team, its what MLSE does best with the hockey side of things.

About the cap...

You don't get it, do you? The whole cap system was set up for poor woe is me franchises to cry and get transfer payments from rich, established teams like the Leafs. They sucked already, all they had to do was wait for the picks and use the leaf's money to improve.

The new system was set up to screw the Leafs and how they operated. When jfj came on board, it was the year before the lockout and the team had the horses to go for it, which most people thought the Buds had a shot at.

Cry me a river buddy. Yep the new cap system was implamented to just screw the Leafs. Everyone is now on a even playing field and the good GM's rise to the top and its obvious JFJ is not one of them. So they had a great team while JFJ came on? so it looks like all hes done is take a perennial playoff team and make them now a perennial NON playoff team. Thats good work, if that happened in any other sort of profession in life he'd be canned. Tell me how he spends all the teams money and gets no return on the ice but still keeps his job? I thought when someone in the business world cant get the job done, they replace him with someone who can (See Raptors and Colangelo). Fcae it the reason why this Leafs team is nothing good is because they have been making moves for ages that are similar to the Toskala/Raycroft trades where they give up draft picks/young assets for shortterm mediocre sucess and then are left with a bare cuppboard a few seasons after. This team willl be in the same state in 5 years that it is in today (not contending, and having no legit prospects going forward).

After the lockout, they were strapped for cash, which was the whole point of the new system. JFJ took the hit, accepted it, and proceeded to get screwed by a dilapidated Belfour who hadn't recovered from the break.

Yep Belfour is to blame for JFJ's imcompetance with trades/signings. Tell me how his Jeff Oneill, Eric Lindros, Jason Allison, Khavanov, Raycroft/rask trade, Leetch trades have all worked out? Im sure those moves and there lack of sucess can all be blamed on Eddie Belfour.

He uses the following year to draft some nice young talent (Kulemin, Tlusty..)

These guys havent played a single game in the NHL. Ill call it nice young talent when I see them procude on the ice. It wouldnt be the first time this franchise has overhyped some of its mediocre prospects.

The guy sees we need goaltending the previous year, and takes a risk on a fairly young goalie who had promise. It doesn't work out so he trades for the sure thing, which costs more, but will bring an end to this key issue. The leafs are not as bad as you are implying they are. They are not as bereft of talent as you are implyiing either. We just signed Anton Strallman, who was conisdered one of the best offensive defenceman in Sweden right now.

The sure thing? Since when is a goalie that has never been a #1 and played more then 40 games called a "sure thing". Leaf homers also told me this same thing last season that Raycroft was a surefire #1 goalie and a sure thing because he won the Calder trophy.....we all see how that turned out. No's ones a sure thing until they produce in that role and Toskala has never proven that he can be a #1 starting goalie over a full season. Sorry 35 games doesnt equal sure thing. Your right the Leafs arent that bad a team, but the way they do business, build there hockey team and neglect looking towards the future is a joke.

Summary

In the end, the one with the best goalie and defence wins out in hockey. Speed and a trap coach also seem in vogue. Bottom line: The Leafs will surprise this year, and it will be because of JFJ's dogged determination to find the right goalie and D--and not just sit back and try to stockpile slightly better than average prospects for the sake of some vague "future plan"

Its great that your overrly positve about this team after adding Vesa Toskala and Mark Frigging Bell . Thats great that he seems to think hes found the "right goalie"but hes sacrificed a boatload of draft picks/young players in the process. When you say surpise this year, let me guess you mean making the playoffs right? Big woopty do, me and alot of other subjective Leafs fans would like to see them one day win a championship you know, not sacrifice a **** of the future just to squeek into a 7th/8th seed.