Enough is enough- rebuild NOW please!

[kelso]

If Sundin loves it here so much, then he will surely sign in July when he's a UFA on a team that will be much younger and more promising, having started the rebuilding by moving him now to the highest bidder.

At least 6-7 teams would be interested IMO in Sundin who's value is at its peak in the last 5 years. 43 points, a face-off machine, PP, PK and a leader- if Forsberg got all that last year, we should clean up. I am so sick and tired of MLSE trying to sell me this shyte I watched tonight, while teams like Philly and St. Louis can overhaul their rosters in 1 offseason.

How can I cheer for this?? We are supposed to be the centre of the hockey universe and they give us this? Anyone who thinks this team is going somewhere other than the draft lottery (after we traded a good number of our picks already) is dreaming.

[bryant08]

If Sundin loves it here so much, then he will surely sign in July when he's a UFA on a team that will be much younger and more promising, having started the rebuilding by moving him now to the highest bidder.

At least 6-7 teams would be interested IMO in Sundin who's value is at its peak in the last 5 years. 43 points, a face-off machine, PP, PK and a leader- if Forsberg got all that last year, we should clean up. I am so sick and tired of MLSE trying to sell me this shyte I watched tonight, while teams like Philly and St. Louis can overhaul their rosters in 1 offseason.

How can I cheer for this?? We are supposed to be the centre of the hockey universe and they give us this? Anyone who thinks this team is going somewhere other than the draft lottery (after we traded a good number of our picks already) is dreaming.

Agreed, tired of being 9th/10th in the conference and that's where we're headed this season. Sundin can get you some great value in terms of prospects/picks, and you can move a lot of our role players for some mid-round picks. But the team's current fate is JFJ's problem IMO. Maurice can't be expected to turn water into wine. The team just isn't clicking, and it's time for change. What that entails, I'm not sure. Eklund (although I hate sourcing him at all) said today:

Also the Leafs are once again in "heavy talks" that could see Raycroft plus a "substantial player" heading to a western team...

I don't really believe it, but hope its true at this point. MLSE needs playoff revenue, and with this current squad they won't get it. Rebuild now, and you'll have a good solid team in the future.

[Griff83]

Ive been saying this for a year now but all the koolaid drinkers have been telling me this team is on the verge of being a force.

im still waiting.

[Marmoset]

It's basically the same old, same old. Nothing changes.

I had the pleasure of being at the game yesterday, and to be honest it was actually quite entertaining for two periods just because of how ridiculous it got.

I'll keep saying this over and over - what this team needs is a long losing streak, something like 10+ games. Each time they lose 4 or 5 and pressure starts to build, they go out and win a couple, and convince themselves they're actually not a bad team. The owners will most definitely take action if we see a long losing streak because they don't want to be embarrassed, and it will be clear just how bad things are.

Also, about trading Sundin; it wouldn't just be a move to get something for him while we can, it would be a symbolic move on the part of the team which shows that they recognize it's time to do something.

[emfive]

Something has to happen at the top. And getting someone you want long term won't happen just like that.

[Cyrus]

The Leafs and it's management remind alot like The Knicks. You've got some overpaid pieces that may work on some other teams, you got some youngsters who are decent, but no allstar, 1st or 2nd line types really..

But more importantly it's management who think "The Leafs Nation", can't stand a rebuilding effort, and the people who think we can rebuild in 1 year are kidding themselves.

Both Philly and St. Louis had good young pieces in the farm, or on the team, the leafs have PRATICALLY no one, it'd take a min of 2-3 years of being bad, and crappy, to reap some picks in the draft, build up the farm team with highly touted prospects...then go from there.

This is why the management just go out there trying to sign near over the hill or over the hill guys to big contracts, cause they know or think fans won't stand in a 3-4 year rebuilding process. So they just sign guys like Steve Blake to like 5 year deals, that'll take him to 38 or whatever, hoping it'll take a team that finished 9th or 10th in Eastern Conf, to like 7-8th position.

Why i say it'll take 3-4 years, is because 1, we don't really have any highly touted prospects int he farm system, 2) we are one of few teams that have multiple (Bad contracts), that are near impossible to move, or can't be moved without giving a nice assest to get rid of them (ie. a first rounder, etc.). Not that the player themselves are bad, but contract they have either due to length or $$$ being paid make it nearly impossible to move them, this will all take time and effort. Some of these player who have like 3-4 years left on their contract won't be able to be moved till they have like 1 year or a year and half.

[Griff83]

The Leafs and it's management remind alot like The Knicks. You've got some overpaid pieces that may work on some other teams, you got some youngsters who are decent, but no allstar, 1st or 2nd line types really..

But more importantly it's management who think "The Leafs Nation", can't stand a rebuilding effort, and the people who think we can rebuild in 1 year are kidding themselves.

Both Philly and St. Louis had good young pieces in the farm, or on the team, the leafs have PRATICALLY no one, it'd take a min of 2-3 years of being bad, and crappy, to reap some picks in the draft, build up the farm team with highly touted prospects...then go from there.

This is why the management just go out there trying to sign near over the hill or over the hill guys to big contracts, cause they know or think fans won't stand in a 3-4 year rebuilding process. So they just sign guys like Steve Blake to like 5 year deals, that'll take him to 38 or whatever, hoping it'll take a team that finished 9th or 10th in Eastern Conf, to like 7-8th position.

Why i say it'll take 3-4 years, is because 1, we don't really have any highly touted prospects int he farm system, 2) we are one of few teams that have multiple (Bad contracts), that are near impossible to move, or can't be moved without giving a nice assest to get rid of them (ie. a first rounder, etc.). Not that the player themselves are bad, but contract they have either due to length or $$$ being paid make it nearly impossible to move them, this will all take time and effort. Some of these player who have like 3-4 years left on their contract won't be able to be moved till they have like 1 year or a year and half.

Not really, Philly has Mike Richards a guy who not a single person thought would perform at this level and could easily have been compared to the likes of Kyle Wellwood or Alex Steen at this time last year. Same goes for Jeff Carter, he's a good player but not a blue chip prospect or elite young player. Most of Phillys sucess has come from trading for a good number one goalie, signing a good piece in Briere and making a sly trade with the Oilers and getting Lupol and Smith in return for Pitkanen. Again this time last season they had no cant miss prospects on there team that were any better then Kyle Wellwood (most of Phillys sucess this year has come from the trades and signings they made over the summer).

same goes for the Blues, they had no elite level young players at this point last year. Boyes had been recycled by a few teams, Stempniak was a good player, a littlle better then Wellwood and Steen but they had nothing really outside of Eric Johnson in the system and he hasnt made a huge impact this season. Again St Louis's major turnaround had more to do with the trades and free agent signings then it did with the infusion of upper tier youth being the reason for the sudden turnaround.

with the right trades and free agent signings the Leafs have more then enough youth to supplant brining in a few good young players via trade to turn this thing around in one season. There is so much paridy now in the NHL currently that all it takes is one or two very good trades and you can easily perform one of these sucessfull rebuild on the flys.

[Crowned]

I was wondering where BlueJay went, didn't know you changed your name.

[Griff83]

this is a very good draft, hopefully we sell some of our assets at the deadline and pick up another pick for this draft.

Schenn and Filatov would be two awesome additions going forward.

[emfive]

this is a very good draft, hopefully we sell some of our assets at the deadline and pick up another pick for this draft.

Schenn and Filatov would be two awesome additions going forward.

I agree. I hate to admit it but I have been hoping lately that the Leafs would go into a real spin and be bonafide sellers at the deadline. However, if Clemensen plays well and or Toskala returns we will be out of luck.

[Marmoset]

-= original quote snipped =-

Not really, Philly has Mike Richards a guy who not a single person thought would perform at this level and could easily have been compared to the likes of Kyle Wellwood or Alex Steen at this time last year. Same goes for Jeff Carter, he's a good player but not a blue chip prospect or elite young player. Most of Phillys sucess has come from trading for a good number one goalie, signing a good piece in Briere and making a sly trade with the Oilers and getting Lupol and Smith in return for Pitkanen. Again this time last season they had no cant miss prospects on there team that were any better then Kyle Wellwood (most of Phillys sucess this year has come from the trades and signings they made over the summer).

same goes for the Blues, they had no elite level young players at this point last year. Boyes had been recycled by a few teams, Stempniak was a good player, a littlle better then Wellwood and Steen but they had nothing really outside of Eric Johnson in the system and he hasnt made a huge impact this season. Again St Louis's major turnaround had more to do with the trades and free agent signings then it did with the infusion of upper tier youth being the reason for the sudden turnaround.

with the right trades and free agent signings the Leafs have more then enough youth to supplant brining in a few good young players via trade to turn this thing around in one season. There is so much paridy now in the NHL currently that all it takes is one or two very good trades and you can easily perform one of these sucessfull rebuild on the flys.

I don't really agree with this at all, particularly regarding Philly. Richards and Carter were very highly touted prospects - both 1st round picks in 2003, Carter 11th overall, in a very good draft class. They have always been MUCH more highly touted than Kyle Wellwood has ever been, except maybe among certain people in Toronto. They already had Gagne. They got a very good prospect in Braydon Coburn by doing what the Leafs never do, by dealing a vet at the deadline. You're sort of right about signing Briere, but the key is that it was BRIERE - they didn't get aging guy winding down his career or a one-hit wonder as a key free agent, they got a young star. As for the Nashville trade, the Leafs can't make trades like that because they don't have the pieces and picks to give up.

St. Louis I admittedly know less about - being a bad team in the west, I haven't paid much attention to them in recent years. To be honest, I'm not convinced they have what it takes to maintain their position (unlike Philly) - we'll see. While I can see Philly being an elite team, I don't think the Blues will be anything more than average with the players they have, depending on what propsects they still have coming up.

You're right that the Leafs could improve the team with a few quick moves, but they couldn't become a contender. They could improve to a 5-8 seed, 1st round exit type of team. In a couple years, because of the lack of young talent, they'd again be back to missing the playoffs. The only way out of the cycle is to make some shrewd moves AND get some real nice young talent - the last five years or so have proved that shortcuts don't work.

The Leafs and it's management remind alot like The Knicks.

Amazingly, the Knicks have managed to surpass the Leafs in the depths of hopelessness, although both teams are a complete circus. Although, with Isaiah around the Knicks have the comic relief factor going for them.

[emfive]

Code: Select all

 
             G      A       P      +/-
Briere     16     13      39     -7
Drury      10     18      28     -8
Blake       6      18     24     +5



[Griff83]

-= original quote snipped =-



Amazingly, the Knicks have managed to surpass the Leafs in the depths of hopelessness, although both teams are a complete circus. Although, with Isaiah around the Knicks have the comic relief factor going for them.

Hey listen Im not one to overrate leafs prospects one bit, but at this point last year neither Carter or Richards were a better player then Wellwood was for us last year. No one knew Richards would explode and become the player he is currently or else he would have never fell that far in the first round in his draft year. We have players similar to Cobourn in Coliacovo and Stralman. What im trying to illustrate is that teams sucess came more from what they did with trades (Lupol, Biron, Smyth, Cobourn) and signings (Briere, Timonen and Hartnell) then it did with the young players already there stepping up and being the difference.

Id like the Leafs to rebuild and trade Sundin/Kubina at the deadline and pick up picks and young players in the process with obtaining valuable cap space for the offseasons coming up. There is so much paridy in the East that its not far fetched to think in one or two offseasons you can go from sellar dwellar to a 4-8 seed with some good trades and signings.

[emfive]

Lose Kaberle as well. That dude has no heart! Before more GM's figure it out (if they haven't already) he will bring the most.

[RingItUp!]

Lose Kaberle as well. That dude has no heart! Before more GM's figure it out (if they haven't already) he will bring the most.

Aside from Sundin, he is far and away the best player the Leafs have. Sure, he's not a physical presence but he's a great skater, makes great decisions with the puck, and is generally a smart player. Pair him with another high calibre defenceman, preferably one that is physical and positionally sound, and that is a top notch lead D pairing in the NHL.

Also, his contract, unlike Kubina's and McCabe's, is reasonable.

I would, and do, advocate trading almost any Leaf ASIDE from Kaberle.

[RingItUp!]

-= original quote snipped =-

Hey listen Im not one to overrate leafs prospects one bit, but at this point last year neither Carter or Richards were a better player then Wellwood was for us last year. No one knew Richards would explode and become the player he is currently or else he would have never fell that far in the first round in his draft year. We have players similar to Cobourn in Coliacovo and Stralman. What im trying to illustrate is that teams sucess came more from what they did with trades (Lupol, Biron, Smyth, Cobourn) and signings (Briere, Timonen and Hartnell) then it did with the young players already there stepping up and being the difference.

I disagree. Marmoset had it right: the Flyers, while making some shrewd deals, improved by acquiring young talent not by dealing away picks and youth for vets past their prime... or worse, without a prime.

You seem to be arguing that it's either one or the other: either the Leafs trade away all their assets for draft picks, or trade for help. It's not that simple, as Marmoset already pointed out. The Leafs, if they ever want to become a contender, need to rebuild by drafting talent, trading for young players with skill, reducing salary paid to less than franchise talents, and using available cash to sign younger, star-quality players. (Side note: they probably also need to can Peddie and JFJ, and somehow convince a rich dude to buy out the MLSE cahs cow from the Teachers.)

The process needs to start now and must being with deciding who is worth keeping and who is not... and where they potentially fit into the Leafs plans.

Worth keeping - Kaberle, Antropov, Wellwood, Tlusty, maybe two of the young defencemen (NOT Injuriacovo)

MUST go - McCabe, Sundin (despite being our best player), Tucker, Kubina, Raycroft, Steen, etc.

Players with value but who are not going to get us to the next level need to be traded for picks and prospects. This team is not going to get substantively better without first getting worse. And I don't think 2-3 years of cellar-dwelling will be any more painful than watching us tread water for another 40 years.

Id like the Leafs to rebuild and trade Sundin/Kubina at the deadline and pick up picks and young players in the process with obtaining valuable cap space for the offseasons coming up. There is so much paridy in the East that its not far fetched to think in one or two offseasons you can go from sellar dwellar to a 4-8 seed with some good trades and signings.

There's the problem - I'm not satisfied with a 4-8 seed.

[Griff83]

-= original quote snipped =-



There's the problem - I'm not satisfied with a 4-8 seed.

"I disagree. Marmoset had it right: the Flyers, while making some shrewd deals, improved by acquiring young talent not by dealing away picks and youth for vets past their prime... or worse, without a prime.

You seem to be arguing that it's either one or the other: either the Leafs trade away all their assets for draft picks, or trade for help. It's not that simple, as Marmoset already pointed out. The Leafs, if they ever want to become a contender, need to rebuild by drafting talent, trading for young players with skill, reducing salary paid to less than franchise talents, and using available cash to sign younger, star-quality players. (Side note: they probably also need to can Peddie and JFJ, and somehow convince a rich dude to buy out the MLSE cahs cow from the Teachers.)

The process needs to start now and must being with deciding who is worth keeping and who is not... and where they potentially fit into the Leafs plans"

I dont see how any of that pertains to my post about most of Phillys success this season has come from the players its brought in (Briere, Biron, Lupol, Smith, Timonen, Hartnell) more then it has to do with there young players. Yes the leafs need to trade away aging/declining assets for picks and young players, nowhere in any of my posts did I say I was against this process (Hell ive been advocating blowing this thing up for awhile now). I never once said we have to trade ALL our assets for picks, but I would like to see both Mats and Kubina trades for young players or picks.

[Griff83]

Steen needs to be traded?

and why is this

[RingItUp!]

Steen needs to be traded?

and why is this

I think Steen is a solid player... but... I think he's an example of the kind of player that gets Toronto and its fans in trouble.

He's not as good as many think he is, at least in my mind. He's a solid, two-way guy, maybe a second line player. He certainly doesn't seem to have the dynamic offensive game required to be a top line player on a contending team.

Given that, why trade him? Because he has value. He's not a crappy player so we could probably get a young player and a pick for him. The last thing I want the Leafs doing, as seems to be their wont, is signing Steen for more than he's worth. I can see that happening with him.

If we're going into the tank (which the team is doing without any further help from management), we should go all the way. Get as many prospects and picks as we can. When we need to bolster the lineup with free agents, the Leafs' ace is that players are going to want to sign in Toronto, especially kids who grew up cheering for the Leafs. Also working in the team's favour is how reluctant aging vets will be regarding Toronto as it rebuilds. We can avoid giving weighty contracts to over-the-hill players, if not by shrewd management, but by not icing a playoff team for a few more seasons.

...

Et, voila!

[Griff83]

[quote="RingItUp!"][/quote]

so you want to trade Steen for a pick?

unless its a first rounder (which I highly doubt it would be considering the strength of these next 2 drafts) I dont see the point in taking the risk of trading a proven player for a pick who could turn out to never play a game in the league.

Steen is exactly the type of player you keep when your a rebuilding team and give him more responsibility and ice time.