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http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists ... ?id=230283

Toronto Maple Leafs interim general manager Cliff Fletcher and captain Mats Sundin met on Thursday to discuss his future with the team.

It's believed Fletcher asked Sundin for a list of teams he would consider playing for, although the Leafs GM stopped short of officially asking him to waive his no-trade clause.

The fact Fletcher has asked for the list of teams speaks to his intent to trade Sundin, but Sundin remains in control and if unwilling can scuttle any potential deal.

Sundin has only a few days to contemplate his future with the trade deadline set for 3pm et on Tuesday, but the belief is the Leafs were hoping for a response from him on Friday. Instead, it may take the rest of the weekend for Sundin to make his decision.

"He needs some time now to reflect upon the request made by the team in order to make a proper decision," Sundin's agent J.P. Barry told TSN on Friday.

"It's an emotional time. In his heart, Mats is and always will be a Toronto Maple Leaf. He doesn't want to leave Toronto."

I'm not sure if i heard correctly, but didn't cliff say later on that there was no list of any kind?

You know Ive always been a advocate of the rebuild with this team and saying I had no problems with them trading Sundin. Its just a total shame that we have to trade such a great player that should have retired a maple leaf but will prolly be moved to save this team from having a horrible future. Mats is being traded because this team is so bad it hasnt seen the playoffs in 2 years and with a 3rd oncoming. Basically were trading our captain because we have horrible management who put a GM in place who was way to green for the job and it showed on the ice with the results while spending right to the cap.

Its pretty bad when a player like Mats is waiving his no trade mostly because he's being made to feel its his resposibilty to aid in building a better future for us. Hopefully he resigns with us next offseason but I have a feeling once he gets traded hes not coming back to TO.

Griff83 wrote:Its pretty bad when a player like Mats is waiving his no trade mostly because he's being made to feel its his resposibilty to aid in building a better future for us. Hopefully he resigns with us next offseason but I have a feeling once he gets traded hes not coming back to TO.

Bob McCown had a good point on the FAN today - we don't really KNOW that Mats is as determined to remain a Leaf as it has been made out to be. That's definitely the impression that we have, but only Sundin and Fletcher really know the answer to that one. The other point he made was that if Sundin was seriously considering going elsewhere, he'd be crazy to say that publicly and I have to agree. The right answer is "I want to be a Leaf forever", until you aren't a Leaf. It was basically the same deal for Ryan Smyth in Edmonton up until the last minute, and the same for many others.

Given that, I think he probably does want to stay, but I thought the point was interesting because it's true that a lot of assumptions are being made.

I also agree that if he goes, he's not likely to come back. I still maintain that trading Mats is as symbolic a move as it is about getting assets back - it's the sign that the team truly realizes it's past mistakes and is ready to start rebuilding.

Marmoset wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Bob McCown had a good point on the FAN today - we don't really KNOW that Mats is as determined to remain a Leaf as it has been made out to be. That's definitely the impression that we have, but only Sundin and Fletcher really know the answer to that one. The other point he made was that if Sundin was seriously considering going elsewhere, he'd be crazy to say that publicly and I have to agree. The right answer is "I want to be a Leaf forever", until you aren't a Leaf. It was basically the same deal for Ryan Smyth in Edmonton up until the last minute, and the same for many others.

Given that, I think he probably does want to stay, but I thought the point was interesting because it's true that a lot of assumptions are being made.

I also agree that if he goes, he's not likely to come back. I still maintain that trading Mats is as symbolic a move as it is about getting assets back - it's the sign that the team truly realizes it's past mistakes and is ready to start rebuilding.

Your right no one knows exactly what Mats wants but I really believe he wants to stay with the team and retire a leaf but he feels like its his responsibilty to accept the trade so that he can help the leafs future in turn.

Trading Mats is symbolic in that this team is willing to finally do the right thing and start to rebuild this mess its just sad as a fan to see your captain basically be the one asked to save there future. If this was a young and upandcoming team with lots of quality youth there would be no reason to trade Mats as he could play here till he retires and be a good mentor but it seems like where making this move for the reason of needing to bring back quality youth instead of making the trade because you feel a new chapter has to start.

The Media and fans the past few weeks have basically made Sundin out to be a bad guy if he decides to not waive his no trade and thats a shame.

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Trading Mats is symbolic in that this team is willing to finally do the right thing and start to rebuild this mess its just sad as a fan to see your captain basically be the one asked to save there future. If this was a young and upandcoming team with lots of quality youth there would be no reason to trade Mats as he could play here till he retires and be a good mentor but it seems like where making this move for the reason of needing to bring back quality youth instead of making the trade because you feel a new chapter has to start.

The Media and fans the past few weeks have basically made Sundin out to be a bad guy if he decides to not waive his no trade and thats a shame.

I absolutely agree - if this team had been run properly, it wouldn't matter so much if Sundin was traded or not. And anyone who thinks he's a traitor or disloyal for invoking the no-trade is an idiot. He has that right, and it's his choice and his choice alone. I will be disappointed if he doesn't agree to waive it because it will hold back the franchise to a degree, but it's his life and his career and if he wants to be in Toronto, how can anyone fault him for that? It's the total opposite of what we usually deal with regarding athletes in Toronto.

Marmoset wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I absolutely agree - if this team had been run properly, it wouldn't matter so much if Sundin was traded or not. And anyone who thinks he's a traitor or disloyal for invoking the no-trade is an idiot. He has that right, and it's his choice and his choice alone. I will be disappointed if he doesn't agree to waive it because it will hold back the franchise to a degree, but it's his life and his career and if he wants to be in Toronto, how can anyone fault him for that? It's the total opposite of what we usually deal with regarding athletes in Toronto.

exactly.

If this team had been run properly and built better there would prolly be no reason for Mats to be traded. Its basically hes being traded because our cupboard isnt very thick with elite young talent. After watching this season I see no reason why Mats still doesnt have this season and 2 more after it, he looks that healthy. I would be dissapointed if he didnt waive it because It almost has to be done to start this rebuild but with better management I dont think we would have ever had to be in this position in the first place.

Well I'm going to wade in here and hope he doesn't waive his NTC and be traded. Mats Sundin, in my estimation can play, for another 2-3, maybe as much as 5 more years, at an elite level and then retire as a Leaf great and have his number raised to the rafters...

In my estimation we need to get rid of 3 players to start a recovery, it is of course a slower process, that isn't instant...

Those players are Kubina, Blake and Raycroft, their combine salaries are about 11 million dollars and if we can get rid of them, it would set us on the road to recovery and could be accomplished, by just trading for players with expiring contracts and or draft choices like 4-5 th rounders, it doesn't matter, the return is immaterial...

We are talking about a trade to Anaheim that nets us Bobby Ryan and Edmonton's 1st.(about 6th or 7th pick) in return for Mats Sundin and either Antropov or Ponikarovsky, on reflection if this is the trade, what do we really gain here, we get a player with great up side, in the AHL and a draft pick that may or not be, an elite player, for 2 very good NHL players, I fail to see, even if another pick, probably a second rounder added, how this will make us, a much improved team...

If Fletcher, is the hockey version of what Embry was for the Basketball franchise, in that, a new GM taking over, can make a few changes with cap space, (remember the trade), Embry dealt Jalen Rose to the Knicks for Antonio Davis (an over the hill, injured player on an expiring contract) and a 1st round draft choice, that was hailed as a great deal, why can't the same be accomplished by trading Kubina, Blake and Raycroft, it is not going to be easy but we will have a lottery pick with our own 1st rounder and Mats along with Antro and or Poni...

Before everyone says, ya but where are we going to find a Knicks GM stupid enough do a deal, I'm sure we can find a few takers, for Kubina, Blake and Raycroft, that are willing to give up little, or nothing, for usable players and in the process rid us of contracts?...

Flame away!...

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote:Well I'm going to wade in here and hope he doesn't waive his NTC and be traded. Mats Sundin, in my estimation can play, for another 2-3, maybe as much as 5 more years, at an elite level and then retire as a Leaf great and have his number raised to the rafters...

In my estimation we need to get rid of 3 players to start a recovery, it is of course a slower process, that isn't instant...

Those players are Kubina, Blake and Raycroft, their combine salaries are about 11 million dollars and if we can get rid of them, it would set us on the road to recovery and could be accomplished, by just trading for players with expiring contracts and or draft choices like 4-5 th rounders, it doesn't matter, the return is immaterial...

We are talking about a trade to Anaheim that nets us Bobby Ryan and Edmonton's 1st.(about 6th or 7th pick) in return for Mats Sundin and either Antropov or Ponikarovsky, on reflection if this is the trade, what do we really gain here, we get a player with great up side, in the AHL and a draft pick that may or not be, an elite player, for 2 very good NHL players, I fail to see, even if another pick, probably a second rounder added, how this will make us, a much improved team...

If Fletcher, is the hockey version of what Embry was for the Basketball franchise, in that, a new GM taking over, can make a few changes with cap space, (remember the trade), Embry dealt Jalen Rose to the Knicks for Antonio Davis (an over the hill, injured player on an expiring contract) and a 1st round draft choice, that was hailed as a great deal, why can't the same be accomplished by trading Kubina, Blake and Raycroft, it is not going to be easy but we will have a lottery pick with our own 1st rounder and Mats along with Antro and or Poni...

Before everyone says, ya but where are we going to find a Knicks GM stupid enough do a deal, I'm sure we can find a few takers, for Kubina, Blake and Raycroft, that are willing to give up little, or nothing, for usable players and in the process rid us of contracts?...

Flame away!...

Im sorry but everything you wrote there is exactly why the leafs are in the place they are currently. Always trying to obtain money and go out and buy a team, but never build a team. This team needs to build a better "core" and somehow aquire top level youth or close to it. Steen, Stajan, Wellwood are decent players but im talking aquiring players like Mike Richards, Getzlaf, Perry, Semin, Stall and your not going to aquire those players by dangling players like Kubina, Raycroft and Blake. The last thing this team needs to do is go out into the FA market and blow another load of cash on some free agents. This team needs to suck the rest of the year and do everything they can to grab a top 2 pick where the franchise changers are in Stamkos and Doughty. You cant always just go out and purchuse a team and thats even more evident in the cap world.

Bobby Ryan and Edmontons pick are more valuable to a rebuilding team (what the leafs should be) then a ageing Mats Sundin and Nik Antropov who for all we know could sign with someone else after next offseason. That Edmonton pick has a high probability of being top 6. Do you know how valueble picks that high are, especially in a deep draft?. The point isnt how to make your team the best next season, it should be to make your team the best it can be for years down the road. Sundin/Antropov will most certainly be more valueble for next season but then what when were sitting in the exact same position next year a few points out of the playoff race and the deadline closing in. Its a shame that Mats has to go because hes been the heart of this team forever but Management has brought this on themselves with poor choices and poor results on the ice.

The Raptors also had the #1 pick in the draft along with a huge trading asset in Villanueva who they traded for Ford. So unless the Leafs win the lottery and grab Stamkos and trade Kaberle for a established forward I dont see how the situations are the same. Plus the Raps had a rising young star in Bosh and I dont see that player on the Leafs.

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Im sorry but everything you wrote there is exactly why the leafs are in the place they are currently. Always trying to obtain money and go out and buy a team, but never build a team. This team needs to build a better "core" and somehow aquire top level youth or close to it. Steen, Stajan, Wellwood are decent players but im talking aquiring players like Mike Richards, Getzlaf, Perry, Semin, Stall and your not going to aquire those players by dangling players like Kubina, Raycroft and Blake. The last thing this team needs to do is go out into the FA market and blow another load of cash on some free agents. This team needs to suck the rest of the year and do everything they can to grab a top 2 pick where the franchise changers are in Stamkos and Doughty. You cant always just go out and purchuse a team and thats even more evident in the cap world.

Bobby Ryan and Edmontons pick are more valuable to a rebuilding team (what the leafs should be) then a ageing Mats Sundin and Nik Antropov who for all we know could sign with someone else after next offseason. That Edmonton pick has a high probability of being top 6. Do you know how valueble picks that high are, especially in a deep draft?. The point isnt how to make your team the best next season, it should be to make your team the best it can be for years down the road. Sundin/Antropov will most certainly be more valueble for next season but then what when were sitting in the exact same position next year a few points out of the playoff race and the deadline closing in. Its a shame that Mats has to go because hes been the heart of this team forever but Management has brought this on themselves with poor choices and poor results on the ice.

The Raptors also had the #1 pick in the draft along with a huge trading asset in Villanueva who they traded for Ford. So unless the Leafs win the lottery and grab Stamkos and trade Kaberle for a established forward I dont see how the situations are the same. Plus the Raps had a rising young star in Bosh and I dont see that player on the Leafs.

We are both after the same thing but you want it instantaneously and in the process, dump Arguably, the greatest Captain of the leafs since 1967 or maybe ever, along with our second scorer Antro, whom I might add is only 29 and is now coming into his own. We need great Management and Scouting to become an elite team. We are headed in that direction and Coaching needs to change too...

Although the circumstances are different between the Leafs and Raptors, there are similarities, like JFJ traded our first rounder for Toskala, same as Villanueva for Ford, one is hailed as a great coup, the other as dumping a first rounder for a Goal tender, Toskala has proven himself? Go figure...

Ask yourself why Bobby Ryan isn't playing for the Ducks he has been a prospect for a few years, if he were such a great player why hasn't he cracked the ducks line-up? Having said that, he is not a bad prospect and on a Leaf team may be playing right now but he is nowhere close to what he is being touted to be (the next coming of Gretzky)...

You are talking about players like Richards and the others you mentioned, these players were drafted by teams in the basement, using their draft choices, because they were God awful teams, you take say The Penguins, They have sucked for 5-6 years and now finally they are making a move to an elite team, having drafted Crosby and Malkin and other good young players however they missed the play-off's for a long time, before they became what they are now and doesn't it makes you wonder, why they are struggling financially, sure they need a new arena but a lot of their games are permeated by empty seats and they may get that fan base back that they have lost but because of their bad years, it takes a long time to do so...

We are in for a good draft choice and hopefully Stamkos is our pick and if we do suck again next year, maybe Tavares is in our future and when we pick like this for a few more years (hopefully we won't) The contracts of NTC players will be in the final years of their contracts, then we can deal them, for the final young pieces for a great team but how far in the future can we actually see because this and next year are good drafts but what about after that, could there be another Crosby?...

The trouble is, will The Leaf Nation hold still for a slow Build, or want instant gratification. Personally I think a slow building process is the best way and we can still play hockey worth watching, or see teams with young players stumble and bumble until those that will make the grade, some to succeed and the rest fall by the wayside, or become marginal players, not all drafted are going to be great, no matter if they were high choices or not...

Remember too, NHL hockey is a business and as much, as we may want to want change and get younger players, Mats Sundin and Bryan McCabe, put Bums in the seats and sell Jerseys and other paraphernalia, Mats also represents The face and heart of the Leafs. I know people that refused to see another Leaf Game when Darryl and Lanny were dumped, some have come back but not all and as much as getting new exciting players, would seem the way to go, maybe it is but not at the expense of your great players, for Question marks...

Mats Sundin is an Icon that holds many Leaf records and I for one want that Tradition to continue...

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote:

Griff83 wrote:
The trouble is, will The Leaf Nation hold still for a slow Build, or want instant gratification. Personally I think a slow building process is the best way and we can still play hockey worth watching, or see teams with young players stumble and bumble until those that will make the grade, some to succeed and the rest fall by the wayside, or become marginal players, not all drafted are going to be great, no matter if they were high choices or not...

Remember too, NHL hockey is a business and as much, as we may want to want change and get younger players, Mats Sundin and Bryan McCabe, put Bums in the seats and sell Jerseys and other paraphernalia, Mats also represents The face and heart of the Leafs. I know people that refused to see another Leaf Game when Darryl and Lanny were dumped, some have come back but not all and as much as getting new exciting players, would seem the way to go, maybe it is but not at the expense of your great players, for Question marks...

Mats Sundin is an Icon that holds many Leaf records and I for one want that Tradition to continue...

Most of the part I quoted would apply to most NHL teams. But these are the Maple Leafs. Contrary to what you and so many people say, Leaf Nation WILL put up with a pathetic team which is rebuilding for years. The fans will fill the seats no matter what, it's been proven. If there is any team in the NHL that can afford to be absolute garbage for a few years in order to rebuild, it's the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Aside from that, I disagree with most of your points. If getting Bobby Ryan and a high 1st-rounder for Mats Sundin isn't good enough, then how exactly is this team supposed to get better? They don't need just one or two young players, they need 20. They have to completely rebuild their system, and trading Mats is the single best way to get that going.

BTW, Bobby Ryan is just 21 and is in a very deep organization. Guys like Kane, Gagner, etc. who got the call right away this year would not be in the NHL if they were playing for Detroit, Anaheim, Ottawa, etc. He's FAR better than any prospect in the Leafs system right now, including Pogge, Tlusty (who should be in the minors IMO), etc.

After much consideration, I agree with Marmoset. This is not a one year bang, bang turn around thing. (I must admit though that I have been eager for a complete immediate revamp.) It may come to pass that not as much may happen at the deadline as we all hope. Nevertheless a complete rebuildig is necessary. And it will not be a quick process (barring a major miracle). In that case the steady approach will have to prevail. The new GM has to keep picks and make sure to have a good organization in place to make wise picks. He needs to create roster and cap space in the next two years and allow some of the younger players to get into the lineup. And he needs to maintain a veteran presence on the team to guide the younger players in their development. Players have to be drafted who exhibit a blend of character and skill and a willingness to follow that leadership. Having Sundin and McCabe in the lineup over the next few years may not be a bad thing in that regard.

emfive wrote:After much consideration, I agree with Marmoset. This is not a one year bang, bang turn around thing. (I must admit though that I have been eager for a complete immediate revamp.) It may come to pass that not as much may happen at the deadline as we all hope. Nevertheless a complete rebuildig is necessary. And it will not be a quick process (barring a major miracle). In that case the steady approach will have to prevail. The new GM has to keep picks and make sure to have a good organization in place to make wise picks. He needs to create roster and cap space in the next two years and allow some of the younger players to get into the lineup. And he needs to maintain a veteran presence on the team to guide the younger players in their development. Players have to be drafted who exhibit a blend of character and skill and a willingness to follow that leadership. Having Sundin and McCabe in the lineup over the next few years may not be a bad thing in that regard.

I agree completely...

This is the tact to take and as much as we all want to see a nice crop of good young players it will have to take time and patience...

Except by all accounts, you are looking to have Tucker and Kaberle there as well, as they both dont want to waive their no-trades. So with that type of money tied up to four guys (plus Kubina's no trade clause), it doesnt allow you to collect the assets and picks needed for rebuilding, and doesnt allow you to create cap room.

whosthebosh? wrote:Except by all accounts, you are looking to have Tucker and Kaberle there as well, as they both dont want to waive their no-trades. So with that type of money tied up to four guys (plus Kubina's no trade clause), it doesnt allow you to collect the assets and picks needed for rebuilding, and doesnt allow you to create cap room.

I think any GM knows how to handle that problem. Just threaten to send anybody expensive who you do not want and does not have a NMC down to the Marlies.

Tell Mikey I always liked him. It was just business!

According to Ek, Sundin will most likely waive his no trade clause, as will McCabe.

Take it for what it's worth, TSN is reporting that Fletcher, Sundin, and JP Barry are in a meeting now to discuss the issue.


Stay tuned folks, I'm looking forward to this finishing

emfive wrote:After much consideration, I agree with Marmoset. This is not a one year bang, bang turn around thing. (I must admit though that I have been eager for a complete immediate revamp.) It may come to pass that not as much may happen at the deadline as we all hope. Nevertheless a complete rebuildig is necessary. And it will not be a quick process (barring a major miracle). In that case the steady approach will have to prevail. The new GM has to keep picks and make sure to have a good organization in place to make wise picks. He needs to create roster and cap space in the next two years and allow some of the younger players to get into the lineup. And he needs to maintain a veteran presence on the team to guide the younger players in their development. Players have to be drafted who exhibit a blend of character and skill and a willingness to follow that leadership. Having Sundin and McCabe in the lineup over the next few years may not be a bad thing in that regard.

He has seen the light!

Seriously though, I know where you were coming from. I just think this is a situation where they're too far gone, and blowing it up will be the fastest way to get back to respectability. I'd rather suffer horribly for the next three years than draw it out over over much longer. Plus, we need those really high picks. Also, I'd rather go down to the ACC to watch our youngsters play hard and lose, compared to watching the current stagnant team.

According to Ek, Sundin will most likely waive his no trade clause, as will McCabe.

Take it for what it's worth, TSN is reporting that Fletcher, Sundin, and JP Barry are in a meeting now to discuss the issue.


Stay tuned folks, I'm looking forward to this finishing

I'm very excited about the next couple of days - I've been waiting for this for five years. I just hope they're able to do what they need to do.

EDIT - And it literally took about 10 seconds for my excitement to be crushed like a bug.

MAS wrote:According to Ek, Sundin will most likely waive his no trade clause, as will McCabe.

Take it for what it's worth, TSN is reporting that Fletcher, Sundin, and JP Barry are in a meeting now to discuss the issue.


Stay tuned folks, I'm looking forward to this finishing

Aaaand Ek's horribly wrong again

OTTAWA

Yeah, just saw on TSN as well. Sundin is refusing to way it.

Damn, my respect for him has gone. If Mats really liked the organization, he'd do us the favour and let us trade him so we can rebuild.

That's very selfish of you Mats!