RealGM

According to Gord Miller (a couple of days ago on Molson That's Hockey), three trades the Leafs had on the table at deadline which did not go down are:

Mats Sundin
for
Chris Higgins
Mikhail Grabovski
1st Rounder (year not specified)

Verdict: To have been able to get a prospect of Higgins's level, a 1st and a pretty decent offensive project for Sundin would have been a solid return. I never would have thought Montreal would put Higgins+1st out there for Sundin (and they might not have, since we haven't heard anything about it and apparently Gord Miller was the first to bring it up).

Tomas Kaberle
for
Jeff Carter
1st Rounder (year not specified)

Verdict: I'd bet Philly wouldn't still offer this deal in the summer after Carter showing what he can do. But I'd bet it would have taken a lot of thinking from Trader Cliff to decide whether or not to make this deal had Kaberle not nixed it with his NTC. In hindsight, it would have been a pretty damn good return for Kaberle and Carter's looking like a #1C at the moment.

Pavel Kubina
for
1st Rounder (SJ, year not specified)
Mid-level prospect

Verdict: I most likely would have taken this deal. Factoring in Carter's re-signing (I'm assuming he'll get a long term deal at about 4.25-4.5 per year), the Leafs wouldn't be shedding as much cap as they would have liked to. This deal would have completely changed that, with $5M gone at the snap of a finger. If all these were 2008 1sts, look at the future:

Carter/Steen/Stajan/Higgins/Grabovski/Tlusty/Kulemin/4 1st Rounders/Stralman/White/Colaiacovo/Pogge

Forget the future, I think that team could compete next season.

Steen-Carter-Antropov
Blake-Stajan-Higgins
Tlusty-Wellwood-Bell
Tucker-Moore-Avery(FA )

McCabe-Stralman
Colaiacovo-White
Draft-FA

Toskala
Pogge

And the average age on that team is like 26-27.

Now instead, we will have a 10-13th pick overall, none of the prospects we would heave fetched in any of those deals, cap space used up for 2-4 buyouts this off season, and probably 2-3 bad contracts on the team still because no one will take them and we don't want to eat too much cap with buyouts.

What the frig was JFJ thinking and please fire Peddie.

No wonder Fletcher was pissed at the deadline. If he could have pulled off those moves, we turn around quicker the Philly and that roster would leave a ton of cap to sign a few players at high money as well.

I thought I was pissed before....geesh.....

bryant08 wrote:According to Gord Miller (a couple of days ago on Molson That's Hockey), three trades the Leafs had on the table at deadline which did not go down are:

Mats Sundin
for
Chris Higgins
Mikhail Grabovski
1st Rounder (year not specified)

Verdict: To have been able to get a prospect of Higgins's level, a 1st and a pretty decent offensive project for Sundin would have been a solid return. I never would have thought Montreal would put Higgins+1st out there for Sundin (and they might not have, since we haven't heard anything about it and apparently Gord Miller was the first to bring it up).

Tomas Kaberle
for
Jeff Carter
1st Rounder (year not specified)

Verdict: I'd bet Philly wouldn't still offer this deal in the summer after Carter showing what he can do. But I'd bet it would have taken a lot of thinking from Trader Cliff to decide whether or not to make this deal had Kaberle not nixed it with his NTC. In hindsight, it would have been a pretty damn good return for Kaberle and Carter's looking like a #1C at the moment.

Pavel Kubina
for
1st Rounder (SJ, year not specified)
Mid-level prospect

Verdict: I most likely would have taken this deal. Factoring in Carter's re-signing (I'm assuming he'll get a long term deal at about 4.25-4.5 per year), the Leafs wouldn't be shedding as much cap as they would have liked to. This deal would have completely changed that, with $5M gone at the snap of a finger. If all these were 2008 1sts, look at the future:

Carter/Steen/Stajan/Higgins/Grabovski/Tlusty/Kulemin/4 1st Rounders/Stralman/White/Colaiacovo/Pogge

Forget the future, I think that team could compete next season.

Steen-Carter-Antropov
Blake-Stajan-Higgins
Tlusty-Wellwood-Bell
Tucker-Moore-Avery(FA )

McCabe-Stralman
Colaiacovo-White
Draft-FA

Toskala
Pogge

And the average age on that team is like 26-27.

I dont understand the bolded part. Fletcher had the deal on the tabel and was ready to pull the trigger all that had to happen was Kaberle waive his no trade clause. Im suprised that nowhere in there was the Kubina to SJ trade that was rumoured to be Kyle Mclaren and a pick.

kelso wrote:Now instead, we will have a 10-13th pick overall, none of the prospects we would heave fetched in any of those deals, cap space used up for 2-4 buyouts this off season, and probably 2-3 bad contracts on the team still because no one will take them and we don't want to eat too much cap with buyouts.

What the frig was JFJ thinking and please fire Peddie.

No wonder Fletcher was pissed at the deadline. If he could have pulled off those moves, we turn around quicker the Philly and that roster would leave a ton of cap to sign a few players at high money as well.

I thought I was pissed before....geesh.....

O btw, I also learned that in one CBA (I believe our current CBA expires in 2011), you can only buy-out 3 players. I don't completely recall as to whether Belfour was bought-out (terminology always confuses me), but I know for a fact that you can only buy-out 3 players in 1 CBA.

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I dont understand the bolded part. Fletcher had the deal on the tabel and was ready to pull the trigger all that had to happen was Kaberle waive his no trade clause. Im suprised that nowhere in there was the Kubina to SJ trade that was rumoured to be Kyle Mclaren and a pick.

The Kubina trade is posted immediately after the Kaberle trade, but according to Miller it wasn't McLaren (I would be glad anyways, he takes up 2.5M cap).....

Bolded part --> You are correct, in fact I learned that the deal was waiting approval from the league office, all that was left was Kaberle's decision. But in hindsight, ugghhhh.

According to Simmons:

Mats Sundin, a Montreal Canadien?

Had Bob Gainey and Cliff Fletcher had their way at the trade deadline, Sundin would now be a member, healthy or not, of Les Glorieux.

The deal was in Sundin's hands: All he had to do was give his blessing to being dealt, which he did not.

The agreed-to trade would have sent speedy winger Christopher Higgins to the Leafs, along with Montreal's first, second and third-round draft picks, in exchange for the captain.

It was the second of two deals Fletcher had all but completed that got nixed by no-trade arrangements in players' contracts.

The first had Tomas Kaberle going to Philadelphia -- this was one was written up at the league office and awaiting appropal -- in exchange for Jeff Carter and the Flyers' first round pick.

In other words, the Leafs might have had three first- round picks, two young players of merit, the draft picks acquired in deals for Hal Gill, Chad Kilger and Wade Belak, all to go forward with. It would have been an excellent way for the incoming general manager to begin the rebuilding process.

bryant08 wrote:

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I dont understand the bolded part. Fletcher had the deal on the tabel and was ready to pull the trigger all that had to happen was Kaberle waive his no trade clause. Im suprised that nowhere in there was the Kubina to SJ trade that was rumoured to be Kyle Mclaren and a pick.

The Kubina trade is posted immediately after the Kaberle trade, but according to Miller it wasn't McLaren (I would be glad anyways, he takes up 2.5M cap).....

Bolded part --> You are correct, in fact I learned that the deal was waiting approval from the league office, all that was left was Kaberle's decision. But in hindsight, ugghhhh.

According to Simmons:

Mats Sundin, a Montreal Canadien?

Had Bob Gainey and Cliff Fletcher had their way at the trade deadline, Sundin would now be a member, healthy or not, of Les Glorieux.

The deal was in Sundin's hands: All he had to do was give his blessing to being dealt, which he did not.

The agreed-to trade would have sent speedy winger Christopher Higgins to the Leafs, along with Montreal's first, second and third-round draft picks, in exchange for the captain.

It was the second of two deals Fletcher had all but completed that got nixed by no-trade arrangements in players' contracts.

The first had Tomas Kaberle going to Philadelphia -- this was one was written up at the league office and awaiting appropal -- in exchange for Jeff Carter and the Flyers' first round pick.

In other words, the Leafs might have had three first- round picks, two young players of merit, the draft picks acquired in deals for Hal Gill, Chad Kilger and Wade Belak, all to go forward with. It would have been an excellent way for the incoming general manager to begin the rebuilding process.

doesnt Mclaren only have a year or so left on his contract though? The point of the deal would be to deal Kubina for a cheaper and shorter contract by adding a draft pick in the process.

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



doesnt Mclaren only have a year or so left on his contract though? The point of the deal would be to deal Kubina for a cheaper and shorter contract by adding a draft pick in the process.

No point discussing it now, McLaren is signed next year at 2.5M, that's a waste of 2.5M, when according to this snip, he wasn't involved in the deal.

I would've pulled the trigger on all 3 of those deals, hands down. I would've been a little reserved with the Kaberle trade, but I absolutely love Jeff Carter.

Verdict: I'd bet Philly wouldn't still offer this deal in the summer after Carter showing what he can do. But I'd bet it would have taken a lot of thinking from Trader Cliff to decide whether or not to make this deal had Kaberle not nixed it with his NTC. In hindsight, it would have been a pretty damn good return for Kaberle and Carter's looking like a #1C at the moment.

This and the Kubina trade (he may in fact have raised his worth with his recent play) and it may in fact be revisited in the off season and could in fact happen, they may offer a 1st rounder next year instead of this year, also there is a rumour the Rangers may be interested in Brian McCabe because of his solid play over the last few games and looking good in our drive to make the play-offs (no link but some speculation on the HF board) but of course he would have to still waive his NTC...

What could have been, had we been able to make the Sundin to Montreal trade, I would have like to have seen in retrospect Higgins and Huet and a 1st and we could have thrown in a 5-6th rounder to even it up...

I'm a big Sundin fan and hope he returns next year and is never asked to waive any NTC again, hopefully he can work out an ironclad contract, that that will stipulate this and he will remain a Leaf forever...

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote:

Verdict: I'd bet Philly wouldn't still offer this deal in the summer after Carter showing what he can do. But I'd bet it would have taken a lot of thinking from Trader Cliff to decide whether or not to make this deal had Kaberle not nixed it with his NTC. In hindsight, it would have been a pretty damn good return for Kaberle and Carter's looking like a #1C at the moment.

This and the Kubina trade (he may in fact have raised his worth with his recent play) and it may in fact be revisited in the off season and could in fact happen, they may offer a 1st rounder next year instead of this year, also there is a rumour the Rangers may be interested in Brian McCabe because of his solid play over the last few games and looking good in our drive to make the play-offs (no link but some speculation on the HF board) but of course he would have to still waive his NTC...

What could have been, had we been able to make the Sundin to Montreal trade, I would have like to have seen in retrospect Higgins and Huet and a 1st and we could have thrown in a 5-6th rounder to even it up...

I'm a big Sundin fan and hope he returns next year and is never asked to waive any NTC again, hopefully he can work out an ironclad contract, that that will stipulate this and he will remain a Leaf forever...

why would we want Huet when we have a better goalie in Toskala and Pogge in the minors?

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
why would we want Huet when we have a better goalie in Toskala and Pogge in the minors?

Huet is a UFA next year and he would have been great as a back up to Toskala in this Run to the play-offs and with the trading we did at the deadline we freed up plenty of cap to accommodate him...

We possibly would have been able to flip him at the end of the season and get a prospect or a Draft pick for his bargaining rights at season end.

My understanding is that Montreal offered Higgins, 1st, 2nd and a third for Sundin and it is intriguing to think about going into next season if he resigned with us, with 2 experienced goal tenders, like Toskala and Huet?...

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Huet is a UFA next year and he would have been great as a back up to Toskala in this Run to the play-offs and with the trading we did at the deadline we freed up plenty of cap to accommodate him...

We possibly would have been able to flip him at the end of the season and get a prospect or a Draft pick for his bargaining rights at season end.

My understanding is that Montreal offered Higgins, 1st, 2nd and a third for Sundin and it is intriguing to think about going into next season if he resigned with us, with 2 experienced goal tenders, like Toskala and Huet?...

how would you be able to flip him at the end of the season if hes a UFA?

And what playoff push are you talking about? Dude its over this team AINT making the playoffs and it gets so tiresome hearing fans keep holding on to some remore possibilty. Ah well thats what some leaf fans live for that ever imfamous push to grab the 8th seed.

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

We possibly would have been able to flip him at the end of the season and get a prospect or a Draft pick for his bargaining rights at season end.

I think the current CBA has something in it to prevent this kind of trade, after there were a lot of moves like that in the last couple years of the old CBA.

I don't see what the point of having Huet would be - I see him as about the same as Toskala. Sure, it would be nice to have another solid goalie, but there are many more pressing needs for the Leafs. And of course, you've got to think that Pogge will be given every chance to be the backup next year.

Griff83 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
how would you be able to flip him at the end of the season if hes a UFA?
And what playoff push are you talking about? Dude its over this team AINT making the playoffs and it gets so tiresome hearing fans keep holding on to some remore possibilty. Ah well thats what some leaf fans live for that ever imfamous push to grab the 8th seed.

Well in our push for the play-offs, we wouldn't be putting Toskala out for every game and maybe doing him an injury, it wouldn't be good, if he does get injured, by playing so much and next year the only Goal tenders we will have are Raycroft and Pogge, especially if it's a lengthy rehab for Toskala...

Getting something for Huet is like Ryan Smith when he was with the Islanders after being obtained from the Oilers, they could have got something from teams looking to negotiate with him before he became a UFA but Marmoset may have a point, there may be something in the CBA, to prevent a team from doing that, after trading for him at the deadline?...



It's beyond my comprehension, how some people can think a team will tank so that we will get a better draft choice, as a former player and coach (not at the professional level), it's unthinkable to even comprehend going out and not trying to win, or give your best effort, in each and every game and as a fan, would you pay big bucks to go to the ACC, knowing your going to watch a team, deliberately try to lose and yes, I will support them, as long as they go out and give it everything...

Tor-Rap-Tor wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

It's beyond my comprehension, how some people can think a team will tank so that we will get a better draft choice, as a former player and coach (not at the professional level), it's unthinkable to even comprehend going out and not trying to win, or give your best effort, in each and every game and as a fan, would you pay big bucks to go to the ACC, knowing your going to watch a team, deliberately try to lose and yes, I will support them, as long as they go out and give it everything...

I totally agree with you on this, despite my constant calls for this team to tank. There's a big difference between management tanking, and the players tanking.

The players should always try to win, as should the coaches. However, the upper management can and should make the decision that a season is effectively over, and that building for the future and not the present should be a priority. The GM can make moves (trades, call-ups, etc.) that suit rebuilding over the present, and the GM can make clear to a coach that while he still wants the team to play hard, he doesn't want to see the top players burned out in a longshot hope for the playoffs.

That last part applies to Toskala in particular - there's no way he should be playing every game no matter what part of the season it is, or what the team's record is.

I

Marmoset wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I totally agree with you on this, despite my constant calls for this team to tank. There's a big difference between management tanking, and the players tanking.

The players should always try to win, as should the coaches. However, the upper management can and should make the decision that a season is effectively over, and that building for the future and not the present should be a priority. The GM can make moves (trades, call-ups, etc.) that suit rebuilding over the present, and the GM can make clear to a coach that while he still wants the team to play hard, he doesn't want to see the top players burned out in a longshot hope for the playoffs.

That last part applies to Toskala in particular - there's no way he should be playing every game no matter what part of the season it is, or what the team's record is.

I agree...

The coach however has shortened his bench and is playing his best players and he, like almost all of us has no confidence in Raycroft and because there is no goal tender in our system, capable of backing up Toskala (maybe Pogge but he's untested) and and so is playing him ala Brodeur and in fact any player worth his salt in this situation would see being replaced as an insult, I guarantee every player on the team wants Toskala to play, including Toskala...

I have been on Maurice's back because of the system he employs and either it's too complicated or the players don't get it and it doesn't work, players are always out of position but there is no doubting his passion for his team and their attempt to get into the play-offs...

You are right upper management is at fault for the predicament, we now find ourselves in and hopefully, they can solve it by hiring the best people going forward. Maybe Burke or someone of his ilk and a cast of competent staff, money should be no object...

Always remember however that NHL hockey is big business and management will go along with any attempt to make it to the play-offs and of course to make more money in the process...

it's almost comical how this has all turned out

Peddie lecturing the media on how the board is full of fans who want a cup. That they're not interested in a one-and-done postseason to make a quick buck. That they plan to rebuild. That they're tired of the mediocrity. High fives all around

until a short while later those convictions are actually put to the test and they completely cave in and make another playoff push lol

Wow Toronto would have had a great team for years. They missed out one allot of talent this season and Stamkos what were you thinking?

Peddie is the worst thing to happen to you. I don't know whats worse Harry Sinden for Boston? Richard Peddie for Toronto? or "Mad" Mike Milbury for the Islanders?

I would have to go with Mad Mike. He traded He has traded away defensemen Zdeno Chara, Wade Redden, Bryan Berard, Eric Brewer, Darius Kasparaitis, and Bryan McCabe; goalies Roberto Luongo and Tommy Salo, as well as forwards Jason Spezza, Olli Jokinen, Todd Bertuzzi, Raffi Torres. Damn o: thats ALLOT of talent just imagine that team now they would be a 50-60 win team easy!