OT: Amazon bring 2nd HQs into Queens

[TimRobbins]

1- Where is the 2.75 TFR ? And what do you mean if I want to believe? If the fact is TFR is 2.75 then that is the fact. if the fact is TFR is 5.0 then that is the fact. I'm not looking to believe anything. if I'm incorrect then call me out.

2- No. Your math is BS. You keep building up that an illegal immigrant family have 2-3 children. The freaking problem is not every one is married. You have millions that are just singles. Not everyone is going to have childred thats going to cost the state 11k per year. Not every child come here at age 6 and go through 12 years of free education.

3-You want to call my source BS? The same website you used to prove your TFR? Sure, lets use another study. Again, lets use another organization thats is anti-immigration. This website came out about $8000 per year per illegal immigrants (including anchor babies). This study included the breakdowns of everything. Federal cost for education, medical, other welfare program, then state cost for education, medical and other welfare program.

https://fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

In 2008, immigrant women had a TFR of 2.75 children

But you know what - I'll take the 8K number since it doesn't really matter if it's 8K or 20K per person (per year). Whichever way you want to cut it, unskilled immigration is a net-negative to society and should be stopped.

The immigrants we should be accepting are highly skilled people such as doctors, scientists, engineers, nurses, entrepreneurs, etc. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with economics.

[TimRobbins]

.

Instead of arguing about how many babies each illegal woman has, let me just ask you one simple question. by most estimates we have approximately 15 illegal immigrants and another 4-5m anchor babies. On average, how much do you think each of these 20 million people cost in benefits per year ? if a family of 5 will cost over 100k, then are you suggesting that each illegal immigrant will csot the gov't on average 20k per year ?

I think 15K-20K annualy per person is a reasonable estimate, but even if it's 5K annually, it should still be stopped. We should bring in people who generate income and create jobs, not people who need welfare and remedial education.

[seren]

GOOG has been a profitable company for a while so yes of course, AMZN has not hence not paying fed tax. GM hasn't paid tax for years despite record profits since bankruptcy. Countless do the same thx to standard accounting and tax regs.

Sorry, I meant to say was... have we given Amazon favorable state tax incentives?

I know in upstate NY, there are incentives for Tech companies to go and build up which they are doing now. But in NYC is different.

Atleast 2b in tax credits. Not sure the exact details.

1.2 billion from the City in tax credits. Another 2.4 from the State. Most of the money is "as of right", ie any company can come and get it since LIC is considered "economically troubled". Plus $500 million cash from State to help their building costs. On city owned land.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/state/8110-a-closer-look-at-the-tax-incentives-in-the-amazon-deal

It is a joke of a deal. I am glad it is stopped. If Amazon did this in upstate New York, I would be fine with this. But no reason to give these tax breaks to make a company move to NYC. 1) It results a bad precedent. Google has been expanding in NYC without a single tax break. After this deal, other big players would demand the same ransom. 2) It is a giant lie that Amazon wouldn't bring those jobs without the tax breaks. Amazon has to expand in NYC. There are already 300K tech jobs in the City. All the big players have a large presence here. Amazon has to. Maybe it wouldn't be in LIC but in Manhattan. But that doesn't matter for the City. So the State and the City were bribing them for the jobs that will be here in either case. 3) The publicly owned land would be given to Amazon even paying them $500 million cash for improvements. They would then lease the land for 99 years with most likely at a very favorably rate. That is beyond stupid. That land has real value. May not look like that now, but in 10 or so years, LIC is bound to make a leap similar to downtown Brooklyn.

[ccvle]

.

Instead of arguing about how many babies each illegal woman has, let me just ask you one simple question. by most estimates we have approximately 15 illegal immigrants and another 4-5m anchor babies. On average, how much do you think each of these 20 million people cost in benefits per year ? if a family of 5 will cost over 100k, then are you suggesting that each illegal immigrant will csot the gov't on average 20k per year ?

I think 15K-20K annualy per person is a reasonable estimate, but even if it's 5K annually, it should still be stopped. We should bring in people who generate income and create jobs, not people who need welfare and remedial education.

It was never my argument that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than the taxes they pay. Just arguing that a 20k estimate is absurd. With 20m illegal (including anchor babies) and at 20k per person, you are talking about 400billions per year. The entire state and local budget is about 1.8 trillion. It is crazy talk to say that illegal immigrants used up 25% of our resources. Even the most anti immigration studies dont even suggest that those numbers.

[E86]

In the end I think there are other areas of the country who will benefit more from the 25k jobs. It’s economic loss for New York no matter the spin about subsidies. But New York equally is having a middle to low income housing problem. The real solution to our economic problems is going to be a hard sell to New Yorkers tho

You are right that other cities can use this deal, as the housing problem here is more important to deal with. What’s the real solution that doesn’t involve pricing people out due to real estate?

The only thing NYers lost is not losing more homes

Nah, we lost money.

[E86]

Ny is losing industries left and right. It really is time to move out of here. Soon NYC will have plenty of housing once people start moving to areas more welcoming to new industries

[E86]

We still can’t get people to graduate high school here

[Fury]

In the end I think there are other areas of the country who will benefit more from the 25k jobs. It’s economic loss for New York no matter the spin about subsidies. But New York equally is having a middle to low income housing problem. The real solution to our economic problems is going to be a hard sell to New Yorkers tho

You are right that other cities can use this deal, as the housing problem here is more important to deal with. What’s the real solution that doesn’t involve pricing people out due to real estate?

The only thing NYers lost is not losing more homes

Nah, we lost money.

Lol @ “we”

[E86]

You are right that other cities can use this deal, as the housing problem here is more important to deal with. What’s the real solution that doesn’t involve pricing people out due to real estate?

The only thing NYers lost is not losing more homes

Nah, we lost money.

Lol @ “we”

Yeah, we that bear the tax burden and pay to subsidize lower income housing

[HarthorneWingo]

Nah, we lost money.

Lol @ “we”

Yeah, we that bear the tax burden and pay to subsidize lower income housing

Poor baby douche doesn't like poor people around. Jesus is so proud. So you want to just kill off the poor? Send them to some island to fend for themselves and die from starvation?

Can't wait to here your suggestions.

[BKlutch]

Lol @ “we”

Yeah, we that bear the tax burden and pay to subsidize lower income housing

Poor baby douche doesn't like poor people around. Jesus is so proud. So you want to just kill off the poor? Send them to some island to fend for themselves and die from starvation?

Can't wait to here your suggestions.

Realistically, what's more important - affordable housing for New Yorkers, or making sure that we always have the richest man in the world working on the side of the American way?

[TimRobbins]

It was never my argument that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than the taxes they pay. Just arguing that a 20k estimate is absurd. With 20m illegal (including anchor babies) and at 20k per person, you are talking about 400billions per year. The entire state and local budget is about 1.8 trillion. It is crazy talk to say that illegal immigrants used up 25% of our resources. Even the most anti immigration studies dont even suggest that those numbers.

I'm talking about state and Federal combined. In any case, it doesn't really matter if it's 20K or 8K per person. The numbers are going to be staggering whichever way you cut it, and yes, undocumented immigrants are taking a very large portion of the welfare budget. That makes sense since virtually all of them are going to be poor.

There is one simple point here - unskilled immigration a huge net-negative.

[robillionaire]

Yeah, we that bear the tax burden and pay to subsidize lower income housing

Poor baby douche doesn't like poor people around. Jesus is so proud. So you want to just kill off the poor? Send them to some island to fend for themselves and die from starvation?

Can't wait to here your suggestions.

Realistically, what's more important - affordable housing for New Yorkers, or making sure that we always have the richest man in the world working on the side of the American way?

Affordable housing for New Yorkers

[BKlutch]

Poor baby douche doesn't like poor people around. Jesus is so proud. So you want to just kill off the poor? Send them to some island to fend for themselves and die from starvation?

Can't wait to here your suggestions.

Realistically, what's more important - affordable housing for New Yorkers, or making sure that we always have the richest man in the world working on the side of the American way?

Affordable housing for New Yorkers

So you think tens of thousands of New Yorkers wouldn't prefer helping Bezos to beat out some Oil Sheik as world's richest man to having good housing for themselves and their families? I think all of us who believe having a livable city are going to be branded as some sort of crazy radicals, but I'll sleep better at night from it.

Maybe we need to ask why Bill Gates didn't decide to use his $ Billions to screw our cities just to get richer, and instead is trying to find ways to make the world a better place.

Spoiler:

No, it's not just penance for making Windows so crappy.

[ccvle]

It was never my argument that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than the taxes they pay. Just arguing that a 20k estimate is absurd. With 20m illegal (including anchor babies) and at 20k per person, you are talking about 400billions per year. The entire state and local budget is about 1.8 trillion. It is crazy talk to say that illegal immigrants used up 25% of our resources. Even the most anti immigration studies dont even suggest that those numbers.

I'm talking about state and Federal combined. In any case, it doesn't really matter if it's 20K or 8K per person. The numbers are going to be staggering whichever way you cut it, and yes, undocumented immigrants are taking a very large portion of the welfare budget. That makes sense since virtually all of them are going to be poor.

There is one simple point here - unskilled immigration a huge net-negative.

you can make that point and it would definitely be a fair point or argument to make. But throwing false or exaggerated numbers out there to support your point is not the way to go about.

[HarthorneWingo]

It was never my argument that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than the taxes they pay. Just arguing that a 20k estimate is absurd. With 20m illegal (including anchor babies) and at 20k per person, you are talking about 400billions per year. The entire state and local budget is about 1.8 trillion. It is crazy talk to say that illegal immigrants used up 25% of our resources. Even the most anti immigration studies dont even suggest that those numbers.

I'm talking about state and Federal combined. In any case, it doesn't really matter if it's 20K or 8K per person. The numbers are going to be staggering whichever way you cut it, and yes, undocumented immigrants are taking a very large portion of the welfare budget. That makes sense since virtually all of them are going to be poor.

There is one simple point here - unskilled immigration a huge net-negative.

you can make that point and it would definitely be a fair point or argument to make. But throwing false or exaggerated numbers out there to support your point is not the way to go about.

Who's going to pick fruit in Alabama. White folk won't do it. Prisoners won't do. But unskilled Mexican immigrants will.

[TimRobbins]

I'm talking about state and Federal combined. In any case, it doesn't really matter if it's 20K or 8K per person. The numbers are going to be staggering whichever way you cut it, and yes, undocumented immigrants are taking a very large portion of the welfare budget. That makes sense since virtually all of them are going to be poor.

There is one simple point here - unskilled immigration a huge net-negative.

you can make that point and it would definitely be a fair point or argument to make. But throwing false or exaggerated numbers out there to support your point is not the way to go about.

Who's going to pick fruit in Alabama. White folk won't do it. Prisoners won't do. But unskilled Mexican immigrants will.

How about automation?

If you pay well enough and give people good working conditions, you're going to get native workers to do it. Also, who says we need this industry? If an industry can't exist without slave labor, it should not exist at all. The long-term costs of unskilled immigration far outweigh the benefits.

[TimRobbins]

It was never my argument that illegal immigrants pay more taxes than the taxes they pay. Just arguing that a 20k estimate is absurd. With 20m illegal (including anchor babies) and at 20k per person, you are talking about 400billions per year. The entire state and local budget is about 1.8 trillion. It is crazy talk to say that illegal immigrants used up 25% of our resources. Even the most anti immigration studies dont even suggest that those numbers.

I'm talking about state and Federal combined. In any case, it doesn't really matter if it's 20K or 8K per person. The numbers are going to be staggering whichever way you cut it, and yes, undocumented immigrants are taking a very large portion of the welfare budget. That makes sense since virtually all of them are going to be poor.

There is one simple point here - unskilled immigration a huge net-negative.

you can make that point and it would definitely be a fair point or argument to make. But throwing false or exaggerated numbers out there to support your point is not the way to go about.

I don't think the numbers are inflated, but in any case, the numbers themselves only serve as a tool to make the point. Unskilled immigration is a very bad idea and should be completely halted.

[ccvle]

I'm talking about state and Federal combined. In any case, it doesn't really matter if it's 20K or 8K per person. The numbers are going to be staggering whichever way you cut it, and yes, undocumented immigrants are taking a very large portion of the welfare budget. That makes sense since virtually all of them are going to be poor.

There is one simple point here - unskilled immigration a huge net-negative.

you can make that point and it would definitely be a fair point or argument to make. But throwing false or exaggerated numbers out there to support your point is not the way to go about.

I don't think the numbers are inflated, but in any case, the numbers themselves only serve as a tool to make the point. Unskilled immigration is a very bad idea and should be completely halted.

of course those numbers are inflated. i showed you studies done that take into account of spending at both the fed and state/local levels and the costs for different benefits (education/medical/other social services) and nothing came close to your 20k. I'm open to be challenged, but so far you have not provided anything other than your personal estimates.

[TimRobbins]

you can make that point and it would definitely be a fair point or argument to make. But throwing false or exaggerated numbers out there to support your point is not the way to go about.

I don't think the numbers are inflated, but in any case, the numbers themselves only serve as a tool to make the point. Unskilled immigration is a very bad idea and should be completely halted.

of course those numbers are inflated. i showed you studies done that take into account of spending at both the fed and state/local levels and the costs for different benefits (education/medical/other social services) and nothing came close to your 20k. I'm open to be challenged, but so far you have not provided anything other than your personal estimates.

I have provided a detailed estimate, but the debate is moot. It makes no difference if it's 8K or 20K.