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PG Thread: Time to overreact

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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#661 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:53 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
The examples of bad defenders becoming passable are slim at best. Ok you give me Brook Lopez who also has been a solid rim protected he was just a really and pick and roll defender in space because he has cement blocks for feet. Playing with broaden and giannis two of the better defenders in the league probably covered up more of brooks weaknesses then him improving.

Hey I would very much appreciate Randle becoming an adequate defender. Do i think it’s plausible at this stage of his career..not really just because I think people Pooh Pooh defense as it’s just this effort base thing. Which i think is a completely ridiculous claim (not saying that is you btw)

Brook Lopez was always a solid rim protector? What? He was always known for being soft at that rim. People always called him being the complete opposite of his brother Robin because he played no defense.
They’re getting to the rim anyway, especially when Lopez is on the floor. In 2010-11, a whopping 35 percent of opposing field goal attempts against the Nets came at the rim when Lopez played, and opponents hit 60.5 percent of them, according to NBA.com’s stats database. When Lopez sat, those numbers fell to 31 percent of attempts and 54.9 percent accuracy. The split was nearly as dramatic the year before.


Now look at him on the Bucks. This has nothing to do with Giannis or Brogdon dude.
Lopez is swatting opponent shots with a lot more frequency this season. His 3.5 percent block percentage ranks in the 91st percentile, and is his highest since the 2012-13 season according to Cleaning the Glass. This menacing presence down low has outright deterred opponents from even wanting to shoot around the rim. The Bucks are giving up the fewest attempts (24) in the restricted area per game.


I really don't see how Randle can't improve when
1. He's very young and has a strong work ethic
2. He was actually a GOOD defender the year before he was on the Pelicans.
3. He's self acknowledging that he sucks right now which most players don't do.

It's obviously going to take time for him to improve so I really don't see what all the hoo blah is here. Just be happy that he's actively trying to get better. Seriously. That's all you can ask for from a fan's standpoint here.


Look at brook stats then get back to me. He’s the same exact player. He blocked the same amount of shots his first few years too. He’s rebounding actually was better earlier in his career.

He was always a trash defender in space always has and always will but this idea he didn’t blocks. The soft comments came because he didn’t like to bang down low. He’s still soft and plays on the perimeter. He just is playing with better defensive players that cover up his main weakness which is defending in space.

I’m saying you and I know the nets teams were complete ass early in his career they lost so many games and were garbage. He is pretty much the same player playing with better defenders.

I literally gave you the stats bruh. It clearly says that there's a big difference in his defense and how it affects his team. I can't believe you actually think he's the same defender from back then and now. And blocking shots doesn't mean you're a good rim protector. You do know that right..?
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#662 » by robillionaire » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:00 pm

They kept saying Kanter was going to get better on defense too, we should probably take anything with a grain of salt, but at least good on him for acknowledging it and working on it. Also, I didn't realize Randle had 7 assists in that game, passing is an underrated aspect of his game
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Re: GONYK Game Notes: Die Another Day 

Post#663 » by K-DOT » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:03 pm

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Knicksfan1992 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
No, I don't think that.

I think a terrible defender trying to pick up on subtle rotation tendencies and positioning when said player struggles with just managing to stay engaged in a basic sense is useless.

If Enes Kanter said that he was watching film on Draymond we'd be laughing him out of the gym as well.

If Julius makes a noticeable jump defensively, it will come a lot more from consistent effort on that end. That's all I'm saying.


That's fair but I don't see how it could hurt either? Julius has about the same measurements as Draymond. I agree he needs to be more engaged but doesn't this at least show that he's at least willing to be more engaged?

We would have never had the chance to laugh at Enes because we all know that he didn't care to try to get better at defense and I think Julius's natural physical gifts make it much more of a possibility that he improves than Enes improving. But I get what you're saying there.


I think what you are saying is very fair as well.

It won't hurt, but without effort, it's just lip service. I was underwhelmed by what I saw from him defensively in the last game, so I am just looking for him to walk the walk a little more.

Like I said, it is good he's aware of his weaknesses, but he's been aware for years. Just want to see it.

Really all that needs to be said

To me, watching film is like, yeah good job, that's what you're supposed to do. Kanter said similar stuff the last 2 years, he never got any better, and he was the same age Randle is now. Once you hit 6 years in, it's extraordinarily rare for someone to just get better on defense

Randle's a good player, but he does have major weaknesses, defense being a big one
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#664 » by j4remi » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:08 pm

Randle in the film room vs Randle practicing on the court?

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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#665 » by K-DOT » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:12 pm

j4remi wrote:Randle in the film room vs Randle practicing on the court?

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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#666 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:26 pm

j4remi wrote:
stuporman wrote:RJ has been learning how to deal with picks from Frank, I see the same exact techniques being employed. Anticipating the pick, navigating around it with good footwork instead of crashing into it then using his length to recover and contest the shot. Looks exactly like Frank!


Most pleasant surprise of the game for me was just how solid RJ played defense. He started off chasing Beal around and of course you're gonna give up some buckets but RJ was pretty strong throughout...literally and figuratively, his strength helps him finish and also keeps ball handlers from knocking him off balance.


I liked his defense and also that he seemed to fit in fairly seamlessly, i.e. didn’t force a lot of dumb rookie stuff.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#667 » by moocow007 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:23 pm

On Randle (and I'm guessing DSJ by association) can't improve on defense...

Does that mean that Ntilikina can't improve on offense? Oh wait...Frank can cause we like him? Did I get the biased mantra right?

Come on guys...if we are going to say one guy can't let's not say the other one can. Offense is harder to learn than defense. Let's just say we won't know until the player proves it or doesn't prove it.

How about that?

The dichotomy on this board is still strong and vibrant I see.

And before anyone starts on the "but unlike the other's Frank is a hard worker...". That's BS. I've said this before Sean Miller has said that Alonzo Trier (another guy that gets fans angst) is one of the hardest working and most competitive players he's EVER coached. And Miller coached a LOT of players. So does that mean that Trier is going to be James Harden or Chris Paul because of it? Nope. Does it mean he'll even be better than he is? Nope. And the notion that a guy like Frank is harder working than Randle or Smith or Trier is based on nothing other than preferential assumptions not facts.

We have no idea what these guys can or can't ever become...until they actually do it or don't do it.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#668 » by Fat Kat » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:31 pm

moocow007 wrote:On Randle (and I'm guessing DSJ by association) can't improve on defense...

Does that mean that Ntilikina can't improve on offense? Oh wait...Frank can cause we like him? Did I get the biased mantra right?

Come on guys...if we are going to say one guy can't let's not say the other one can. Offense is harder to learn than defense. Let's just say we won't know until the player proves it or doesn't prove it.

How about that?

The dichotomy on this board is still strong and vibrant I see.

And before anyone starts on the "but unlike the other's Frank is a hard worker...". That's BS. I've said this before Sean Miller has said that Alonzo Trier (another guy that gets fans angst) is one of the hardest working and most competitive players he's EVER coached. And Miller coached a LOT of players. So does that mean that Trier is going to be James Harden or Chris Paul because of it? Nope. Does it mean he'll even be better than he is? Nope. And the notion that a guy like Frank is harder working than Randle or Smith or Trier is based on nothing other than preferential assumptions.

We have no idea what these guys can or can't ever become...until they actually do it or don't do it.


Good post Moo.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#669 » by god shammgod » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:54 pm

i agree with moo, you can never know what someone can overcome. that being said, the most likely outcome is that frank continues to suck on offense and randle continues to suck on defense.

just when you thought you were happy, here i come. and i'm proud of it too. lol
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GONYK Game Notes: Die Another Day 

Post#670 » by GONYK » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:54 pm

moocow007 wrote:On Randle (and I'm guessing DSJ by association) can't improve on defense...

Does that mean that Ntilikina can't improve on offense? Oh wait...Frank can cause we like him? Did I get the biased mantra right?

Come on guys...if we are going to say one guy can't let's not say the other one can. Offense is harder to learn than defense. Let's just say we won't know until the player proves it or doesn't prove it.

How about that?

The dichotomy on this board is still strong and vibrant I see.

And before anyone starts on the "but unlike the other's Frank is a hard worker...". That's BS. I've said this before Sean Miller has said that Alonzo Trier (another guy that gets fans angst) is one of the hardest working and most competitive players he's EVER coached. And Miller coached a LOT of players. So does that mean that Trier is going to be James Harden or Chris Paul because of it? Nope. Does it mean he'll even be better than he is? Nope. And the notion that a guy like Frank is harder working than Randle or Smith or Trier is based on nothing other than preferential assumptions not facts.

We have no idea what these guys can or can't ever become...until they actually do it or don't do it.


You drew in a lot of strawmen to make the argument here, Moo. You provided all the narratives by pulling in 21 year olds to try obscure the fact that Randle is pretty much a 25 year old entering his 6th season in the league.

It's all great to hope that someone can make a significant jump at this stage in their career, but anyone watching the game for any amount of time will agree it's highly unlikely. The data will back that up as well.

So to address the strawmen you introduced, if Frank, Dennis, Knox, RJ, Mitch or whoever were entering their 6th year in the league at nearly 25 years of age, I think it's pretty safe to say that everyone would pretty much think of them as finished products as well. In fact, it would happen much sooner on this board. Nothing dichotomous about that.

It is a much more rational stance than writing off the analysis as "Everyone who is criticizing Julius is only doing so because he's not Frank"
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#671 » by MaseInYourFace » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:20 pm

moocow007 wrote:On Randle (and I'm guessing DSJ by association) can't improve on defense...

Does that mean that Ntilikina can't improve on offense? Oh wait...Frank can cause we like him? Did I get the biased mantra right?

Come on guys...if we are going to say one guy can't let's not say the other one can. Offense is harder to learn than defense. Let's just say we won't know until the player proves it or doesn't prove it.

How about that?

The dichotomy on this board is still strong and vibrant I see.

And before anyone starts on the "but unlike the other's Frank is a hard worker...". That's BS. I've said this before Sean Miller has said that Alonzo Trier (another guy that gets fans angst) is one of the hardest working and most competitive players he's EVER coached. And Miller coached a LOT of players. So does that mean that Trier is going to be James Harden or Chris Paul because of it? Nope. Does it mean he'll even be better than he is? Nope. And the notion that a guy like Frank is harder working than Randle or Smith or Trier is based on nothing other than preferential assumptions not facts.

We have no idea what these guys can or can't ever become...until they actually do it or don't do it.


Well said. I’d also like to add that it seems people are already locking into the Randle is terrible on defense after one pre-season game. Lmao that is ridiculous!
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#672 » by moocow007 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:22 pm

god shammgod wrote:i agree with moo, you can never know what someone can overcome. that being said, the most likely outcome is that frank continues to suck on offense and randle continues to suck on defense.

just when you thought you were happy, here i come. and i'm proud of it too. lol


Pretty much. :lol:
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#673 » by stuporman » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:23 pm

Sham may have a point, sometimes people just continue to suck, all of you included. No, don't try to be better because you can't, you're too old to improve and you cannot learn how to post greatness by reading mine, you will suck forever.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#674 » by KnicksGod » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:40 pm

MaseInYourFace wrote:
moocow007 wrote:On Randle (and I'm guessing DSJ by association) can't improve on defense...

Does that mean that Ntilikina can't improve on offense? Oh wait...Frank can cause we like him? Did I get the biased mantra right?

Come on guys...if we are going to say one guy can't let's not say the other one can. Offense is harder to learn than defense. Let's just say we won't know until the player proves it or doesn't prove it.

How about that?

The dichotomy on this board is still strong and vibrant I see.

And before anyone starts on the "but unlike the other's Frank is a hard worker...". That's BS. I've said this before Sean Miller has said that Alonzo Trier (another guy that gets fans angst) is one of the hardest working and most competitive players he's EVER coached. And Miller coached a LOT of players. So does that mean that Trier is going to be James Harden or Chris Paul because of it? Nope. Does it mean he'll even be better than he is? Nope. And the notion that a guy like Frank is harder working than Randle or Smith or Trier is based on nothing other than preferential assumptions not facts.

We have no idea what these guys can or can't ever become...until they actually do it or don't do it.


Well said. I’d also like to add that it seems people are already locking into the Randle is terrible on defense after one pre-season game. Lmao that is ridiculous!


I think Zion heard he was Randle with hops and took it to heart.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#675 » by KnicksGod » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:43 pm

god shammgod wrote:i agree with moo, you can never know what someone can overcome. that being said, the most likely outcome is that frank continues to suck on offense and randle continues to suck on defense.

just when you thought you were happy, here i come. and i'm proud of it too. lol


Can't change your stripes BUT I think there is BFS here too. To be an adequate or coverable defender, or to have your O outweigh bad D, is not impossible.

We're just used to Eddy Curry and Amar'e. But there are the Stephs and even Amar'e was a big piece in the right system. You just need to get it up to decent or not horrific and be really good at other stuff.

Two-way so important but we have had SUCH bad D (and really bad O too) that we don't see any hope there. But there are a lot of one-way stars, like Harden.

Harder to do at 4/5. On the other hand, he has Mitch and other good defenders on this roster.

I think he can get it there. Where his O is more than outweighing his D. He has enough tools and seems like a bright guy. Him looking at the driver the other night wasn't encouraging though, I admit.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#676 » by mpharris36 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:57 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Brook Lopez was always a solid rim protector? What? He was always known for being soft at that rim. People always called him being the complete opposite of his brother Robin because he played no defense.


Now look at him on the Bucks. This has nothing to do with Giannis or Brogdon dude.


I really don't see how Randle can't improve when
1. He's very young and has a strong work ethic
2. He was actually a GOOD defender the year before he was on the Pelicans.
3. He's self acknowledging that he sucks right now which most players don't do.

It's obviously going to take time for him to improve so I really don't see what all the hoo blah is here. Just be happy that he's actively trying to get better. Seriously. That's all you can ask for from a fan's standpoint here.


Look at brook stats then get back to me. He’s the same exact player. He blocked the same amount of shots his first few years too. He’s rebounding actually was better earlier in his career.

He was always a trash defender in space always has and always will but this idea he didn’t blocks. The soft comments came because he didn’t like to bang down low. He’s still soft and plays on the perimeter. He just is playing with better defensive players that cover up his main weakness which is defending in space.

I’m saying you and I know the nets teams were complete ass early in his career they lost so many games and were garbage. He is pretty much the same player playing with better defenders.

I literally gave you the stats bruh. It clearly says that there's a big difference in his defense and how it affects his team. I can't believe you actually think he's the same defender from back then and now. And blocking shots doesn't mean you're a good rim protector. You do know that right..?


I do know that. And I do know that having better perimeter defense makes you a better interior defender as well. You used one year of stats. Can you even name anyone from that New Jersey nets roster?

You quoted me one year where Lopez was playing with devin Harris, Anthony morrow, Travis outlaw, and kris humphries and the 24 win nets team?

Compared to a lineup with Bledsoe, brogden, and giannis on the best record in the east? But it’s brook lopez the sole reason for his own improvement ? Or is it the better team around him?

I’ll take the latter
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#677 » by NYKAL » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:15 pm

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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#678 » by mpharris36 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:20 pm

god shammgod wrote:i agree with moo, you can never know what someone can overcome. that being said, the most likely outcome is that frank continues to suck on offense and randle continues to suck on defense.

just when you thought you were happy, here i come. and i'm proud of it too. lol


I for sure can name a lot more guys that improved there jumper over guys magically becoming better defenders in there careers.

For example amare and David lee both improved jumpers after coming into a league. Both never became better defenders. You just don’t magically get IQ...you either have that skill set or you don’t.

That is why I don’t believe that is a valid argument. And for example no one is asking frank to watch steph curry or Reggie Miller highlights to become a better shooter. He just needs to continue the repetition and practice. Which we at least can see because he’s always the last one in the gym working on it.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#679 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:30 pm

moocow007 wrote:On Randle (and I'm guessing DSJ by association) can't improve on defense...

Does that mean that Ntilikina can't improve on offense? Oh wait...Frank can cause we like him? Did I get the biased mantra right?

Come on guys...if we are going to say one guy can't let's not say the other one can. Offense is harder to learn than defense. Let's just say we won't know until the player proves it or doesn't prove it.

How about that?

The dichotomy on this board is still strong and vibrant I see.

And before anyone starts on the "but unlike the other's Frank is a hard worker...". That's BS. I've said this before Sean Miller has said that Alonzo Trier (another guy that gets fans angst) is one of the hardest working and most competitive players he's EVER coached. And Miller coached a LOT of players. So does that mean that Trier is going to be James Harden or Chris Paul because of it? Nope. Does it mean he'll even be better than he is? Nope. And the notion that a guy like Frank is harder working than Randle or Smith or Trier is based on nothing other than preferential assumptions not facts.

We have no idea what these guys can or can't ever become...until they actually do it or don't do it.


I get your drift on the bias point, but it bears mentioning that learning to play defense and offense are two very different sets of skills. Some guys really seem unable to learn how to read defenses, anticipate and react in unison with their teammates.

The thing about drilling offensive skills is you can do them basically by dribbling and shooting many reps and making the mechanical adjustments over time, but to learn defense when you have no innate knack for it really does require hands on coaching.

It is really hard for some guys to learn it from game situations and if there is no steady tutoring outside of game time they may suffer as a result. It certainly explains why some guys have terrible defense after one year in college. They needed more time and education to absorb the nuances.

If just time and will were the only factors to improving on defense, I'd say anybody could apply themselves and get much better at it, but some guys seem unable to learn defense as easily as improving their offensive moves.

Defense takes a little more mental effort than being a scorer in general, at least to play it at a higher level.
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Re: PG Thread: Time to overreact 

Post#680 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:06 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Look at brook stats then get back to me. He’s the same exact player. He blocked the same amount of shots his first few years too. He’s rebounding actually was better earlier in his career.

He was always a trash defender in space always has and always will but this idea he didn’t blocks. The soft comments came because he didn’t like to bang down low. He’s still soft and plays on the perimeter. He just is playing with better defensive players that cover up his main weakness which is defending in space.

I’m saying you and I know the nets teams were complete ass early in his career they lost so many games and were garbage. He is pretty much the same player playing with better defenders.

I literally gave you the stats bruh. It clearly says that there's a big difference in his defense and how it affects his team. I can't believe you actually think he's the same defender from back then and now. And blocking shots doesn't mean you're a good rim protector. You do know that right..?


I do know that. And I do know that having better perimeter defense makes you a better interior defender as well. You used one year of stats. Can you even name anyone from that New Jersey nets roster?

You quoted me one year where Lopez was playing with devin Harris, Anthony morrow, Travis outlaw, and kris humphries and the 24 win nets team?

Compared to a lineup with Bledsoe, brogden, and giannis on the best record in the east? But it’s brook lopez the sole reason for his own improvement ? Or is it the better team around him?

I’ll take the latter

This is from an article that says Brook Lopez deserves to be in the running for DPOY...Bucks journalists and stats disagree with you highly
The Bucks are allowing just 42.1 points in the paint per game this year, just one tenth of a point off the best team, and third best overall. This represents a radical shift from last season, where the Bucks finished 23rd and gave up 47.3 points per game in the paint. Lopez is a major reason why that’s changed.

A deeper dig into the advanced stats paints Lopez in an even better light, and show just how far reaching his defensive impact is.

Lopez has blocked 6.4 percent of the shot attempts against him this season. That’s fourth best in the NBA, just behind Myles Turner, JaVale McGee, and Hassan Whiteside.

Opponents are shooting just 51.8 percent at the rim against him when he’s the closest defender, putting him in the top-10 in the league. Zach Kram of The Ringer highlighted that here. That total puts him on par with one of the league’s most highly regarded defensive big men, Rudy Gobert.

The Milwaukee Bucks hold the best defensive rating in the NBA at 104.3, over a half point better than the second placed Utah Jazz.

When Lopez is on the floor, the Bucks defensive rating is two points better than their already league best rating, at 102.3. That puts him sixth among all NBA players who’ve played at least 60 games and logged at least 24 minutes per game. Only Antetokounmpo has a better defensive rating on the Bucks.

What makes Lopez such an effective force on defense, however, is not just that he’s able to hassle players at the rim. He’s been able to rotate on to and effectively stay in front of quicker players too.

One of the chief concerns coming into this season was whether Lopez’s lack of lateral quickness would leave the Bucks vulnerable defensively in pick-and-roll situations. Teams often target players of his ilk in that way because they don’t have the lateral speed to stay in front of a guard or athletic forward. Lopez has largely been able to to hold his own in these situations.
Cavs Nation
Dennis Smith Jr/Dunn/Cook
Zach Lavine/Frank Jackson/Brown Jr
Jayson Tatum/Osman/O'Neale
Julius Randle/DFS/Bolden
Deandre Ayton/Bam

It's like when n*ggas make subliminal records
If it ain't directed directly at me, I don't respect it

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