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PG: Pistons vs Knicks

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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#141 » by mpharris36 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:01 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:you’re looking at numbers instead of their actual games. Middleton has always been able to create his own shot. rj cant. rj gets 16-18 points just by jacking up spot up 3’s and layups. and tbh he did look like mikal in the playoffs. which again is a great role player but we need more than that since we drafted him #3. eventually he’s going to ask for a max contract so he needs to start flashing some star potential if he wants to live up to his contract.


It took middelton year 4 when he was 24 years old to break 20% USG rating. He was not creating his own shot early in his career. He was pretty much a floor spacer/C&S guy early in his career.

Middelton really broke out in year 4 before his injury with an expanded game as someone that could shoot off the dribble.

actually Middleton has always been a great scorer off the dribble. once the bucks gave him a bigger role on offense he broke out. he always had the skills, which rj doesn’t.

Middleton's ability to score off the dribble from the mid-range remains his most important skill as both a college player and NBA prospect, and he showed continued success in that area this past season. He possesses excellent creativity and feel in this area of his game, while being very comfortable finding small windows to get off shot attempts while blanketed by defenders. - Source: https://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Khris-Middleton-6332/ ©DraftExpress

From isolation situations, Middleton's efficiency is outstanding at the college level, as his 1.043 points per possessions according to Synergy ranks in the 91st percentile. - Source: https://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Khris-Middleton-6332/ ©DraftExpress


Oh I agree but A lot of guys have certain bags in college that don't translate to the pros. I'm not saying he couldn't do it I'm just saying he took a big leap in year 4 in the NBA. RJ is just going into year 3. If you say because he has never shown it at any point of his career like Khris did then I get you on that point. But I wouldn't put it past RJ to continue to develop.

RJ was a pretty terrible spot up shooter in college and he has turned himself into a pretty dangerous one. I would love for him to be more EFF around the basket. And that will ultimately probably be his big swing factor along with shooting off the dribble.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#142 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:02 pm

K-DOT wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:I didn't realize you could score 18 a night on just spot up 3s when you make less than 2 threes a game

Crazy how the math just works on that.

crazy how you took out the part where I said AND layups so you can run with your false narrative again :lol:

RJ was assisted on only 33% of his layups last year

Randle was assisted on 39% of his layups last year, for comparison's sake

Assuming all of RJ's 3s were spot-up 3s, that means spot-up 3s and assisted layups made up 42% of his made field goals. All in all, he was assisted on 52% of his made shots

Crazy how a guy who literally can't do anything but make spot up 3s and assisted layups does that.

where did I say his layups were assisted? either your reading comprehension is really bad or you’re just making up schit to run with your trash agenda :lol:
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#143 » by NYKnickerbocker » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:05 pm

If RJ hit the occasional step back. Nobody would be complaining or criticizing him. Some people need to see the flash to really think a guy has improved.

But he does need to take the middy more instead of forcing some drives. Teams are giving it to him at least in these 3 preseason games. If he’d take a few, it’d make getting to the rim a lot easier
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#144 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
It took middelton year 4 when he was 24 years old to break 20% USG rating. He was not creating his own shot early in his career. He was pretty much a floor spacer/C&S guy early in his career.

Middelton really broke out in year 4 before his injury with an expanded game as someone that could shoot off the dribble.

actually Middleton has always been a great scorer off the dribble. once the bucks gave him a bigger role on offense he broke out. he always had the skills, which rj doesn’t.

Middleton's ability to score off the dribble from the mid-range remains his most important skill as both a college player and NBA prospect, and he showed continued success in that area this past season. He possesses excellent creativity and feel in this area of his game, while being very comfortable finding small windows to get off shot attempts while blanketed by defenders. - Source: https://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Khris-Middleton-6332/ ©DraftExpress

From isolation situations, Middleton's efficiency is outstanding at the college level, as his 1.043 points per possessions according to Synergy ranks in the 91st percentile. - Source: https://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Khris-Middleton-6332/ ©DraftExpress


Oh I agree but A lot of guys have certain bags in college that don't translate to the pros. I'm not saying he couldn't do it I'm just saying he took a big leap in year 4 in the NBA. RJ is just going into year 3. If you say because he has never shown it at any point of his career like Khris did then I get you on that point. But I wouldn't put it past RJ to continue to develop.

RJ was a pretty terrible spot up shooter in college and he has turned himself into a pretty dangerous one. I would love for him to be more EFF around the basket. And that will ultimately probably be his big swing factor along with shooting off the dribble.

no doubt RJ can improve and most likely will keep getting better. i don’t know if he’ll improve to the point of reaching stardom though cause usually the elite wings have flashed their ability to score off the dribble early in their career and rj hasnt done so yet. but hey I’m rooting for him. at the very least he’s a pretty good 3 and D player so that’s nice to have
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#145 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:08 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:we need more from rj than Randle at this point or we’re just going to rely on Randle to bail us out with tough shots to win like he did last night. that was basically all we did last season as well. rj doesn’t look like he’s taking any leap this year. people hate it when we say this but it’s the truth, he’s just a good role player. i don’t see star


More so than his offense. I think the jump we need to see from RJ is on the defensive end. With the new acquisitions we are lacking a true perimeter defender in our rotation. I think guys like Kemba/Rose as well as Fournier/Burks and potential someone like IQ on some nights which you mentioned can hopefully bridge that gap to Julius just playing hero ball at the end of the game.

But I liked what I saw from RJ defensively so far. I think he had some great moments vs Beal and I think he defended Josh Jackson pretty well too.

Game 1 its likely like RJ will be either on Brown (if he's back from COVID) or Tatum. So his value this year IMO will be of a 2-way player.

his defense looks better but offensively he pretty much looks like the same player. i was hoping he would improve on that end so he can take a bigger role and take off some of the load off Randle but it doesn’t look like it’s happening. i hate that we have to rely on an aging kemba so much to help out Randle. we look like the same Knicks as last year with no kemba. just Randle bailing us out with extremely tough shots which is not how you want to win ideally.


With RJ you pretty much have to wait a quarter season to see what his adaptations are. He seems to start slow and then unleash another wrinkle to his game based on the previous two seasons.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#146 » by K-DOT » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:08 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:crazy how you took out the part where I said AND layups so you can run with your false narrative again

RJ was assisted on only 33% of his layups last year

Randle was assisted on 39% of his layups last year, for comparison's sake

Assuming all of RJ's 3s were spot-up 3s, that means spot-up 3s and assisted layups made up 42% of his made field goals. All in all, he was assisted on 52% of his made shots

Crazy how a guy who literally can't do anything but make spot up 3s and assisted layups does that.

where did I say his layups were assisted? either your reading comprehension is really bad or you’re just making up schit to run with your trash agenda
So you've gone from "can't create anything for himself" to "so what if he can create layups, I was talking about jumpers"

This is what's called moving the goalposts. It's not even like I disagree that his inability to create jumpers for himself is stopping him from becoming a star, cause it is. Dude needs to be able to pull up

But he clearly can create off the dribble, he's just not good at it, and people conflate not being good at something with not being able to do something at all.

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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#147 » by j4remi » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:13 pm

Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#148 » by DaGawd » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:15 pm

NYKnickerbocker wrote:If RJ hit the occasional step back. Nobody would be complaining or criticizing him. Some people need to see the flash to really think a guy has improved.

But he does need to take the middy more instead of forcing some drives. Teams are giving it to him at least in these 3 preseason games. If he’d take a few, it’d make getting to the rim a lot easier

This. I don’t even need to see flash like that but read the defense better. Pull up from mid instead of going all the way to the rack sometimes. He sucks at finishing in traffic so I rather him just take the shot the defense is giving him and live with the result
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#149 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:20 pm

K-DOT wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:RJ was assisted on only 33% of his layups last year

Randle was assisted on 39% of his layups last year, for comparison's sake

Assuming all of RJ's 3s were spot-up 3s, that means spot-up 3s and assisted layups made up 42% of his made field goals. All in all, he was assisted on 52% of his made shots

Crazy how a guy who literally can't do anything but make spot up 3s and assisted layups does that.

where did I say his layups were assisted? either your reading comprehension is really bad or you’re just making up schit to run with your trash agenda
So you've gone from "can't create anything for himself" to "so what if he can create layups, I was talking about jumpers"

This is what's called moving the goalposts. It's not even like I disagree that his inability to create jumpers for himself is stopping him from becoming a star, cause it is. Dude needs to be able to pull up

But he clearly can create off the dribble, he's just not good at it, and people conflate not being good at something with not being able to do something at all.

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RJ worked on putting some bounce into his step while retaining his shooting form which looks as good or better than before. Some of his jumpers are more elevated now which is the prelude to side and back steps. He's working on creating space from a static position and I'm confident he will be a very good step back shooter.

The real key will be taking his man off the dribble from those static positions on the perimeter. And then he can mix up his drives between pull-up mid-range bunnies and conversions at the rim.

As I've said, RJ is a fairly mechanical player, but once he masters a move he will chain them together over time. Eventually that will create greater spontaneity. He is not a naturally creative player, but he is a highly intelligent and meticulous one.

IOW, he may get to that level of being hard to guard and a high level scorer via his mechanistic learning process and it won't matter if he achieved it that way vs. a more naturally gifted scorer. If he puts it all together the result will be the same regardless of his slow burn approach.

I'm not 100% he will put it all together to get to All-Star elite scorer status, but I would not bet against a guy like RJ.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#150 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:20 pm

K-DOT wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:RJ was assisted on only 33% of his layups last year

Randle was assisted on 39% of his layups last year, for comparison's sake

Assuming all of RJ's 3s were spot-up 3s, that means spot-up 3s and assisted layups made up 42% of his made field goals. All in all, he was assisted on 52% of his made shots

Crazy how a guy who literally can't do anything but make spot up 3s and assisted layups does that.

where did I say his layups were assisted? either your reading comprehension is really bad or you’re just making up schit to run with your trash agenda
So you've gone from "can't create anything for himself" to "so what if he can create layups, I was talking about jumpers"

This is what's called moving the goalposts. It's not even like I disagree that his inability to create jumpers for himself is stopping him from becoming a star, cause it is. Dude needs to be able to pull up

But he clearly can create off the dribble, he's just not good at it, and people conflate not being good at something with not being able to do something at all.

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you’re the only one changing the goal posts but you can’t see that cause you have an agenda to run. I said he gets his points off spot up 3’s and layups. You twisted my words and said “rj only gets assisted layups” which in fact nobody said that. so yeah he makes some straight line drives. who cares cause nobody said otherwise.

and I’m literally talking about his horrible iso ability. that’s what this whole convo is about.

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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#151 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:24 pm

j4remi wrote:Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.


Probably here from the same people who dont want to pay RJ :lol:
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#152 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:24 pm

j4remi wrote:Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.


Impatience is rampant. We got him out of the cradle so his year 5 will be like year 3 for lots of guys. And in his year 3 he's already a bona fide starter who stuffs the stat sheet. Plus, guys are bitching about him being inadequate on offense while praising his emerging potential as a lock-down defender. Yet he averages robust offensive numbers on superior 3 point shooting already. I don't know what to say frankly other than relax folks
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#153 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:29 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
j4remi wrote:Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.


Probably here from the same people who dont want to pay RJ :lol:


Probably so. Not every fan is hard wired to play at being GM. Now that we have a well-run franchise I feel even less need to anticipate future moves, but really it is just a matter of different strokes. I understand why people would want x,y and z from RJ before paying him the big bucks, but that cart is too far ahead of the horse for someone as simple-minded about hoops as myself. I'm content being passive about future cap considerations and trusting this FO. It makes it easier for me to enjoy the progress of the team and players in real time
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#154 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:29 pm

i called Middleton the most underrated player years ago. i saw his potential as a scorer since he always had the ability to create jumpers off the dribble. don’t see the same with rj. maybe I’m wrong we’ll see
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#155 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:31 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
j4remi wrote:Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.


Impatience is rampant. We got him out of the cradle so his year 5 will be like year 3 for lots of guys. And in his year 3 he's already a bona fide starter who stuffs the stat sheet. Plus, guys are bitching about him being inadequate on offense while praising his emerging potential as a lock-down defender. Yet he averages robust offensive numbers on superior 3 point shooting already. I don't know what to say frankly other than relax folks

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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#156 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:34 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
j4remi wrote:Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.


Probably here from the same people who dont want to pay RJ :lol:


Probably so. Not every fan is hard wired to play at being GM. Now that we have a well-run franchise I feel even less need to anticipate future moves, but really it is just a matter of different strokes. I understand why people would want x,y and z from RJ before paying him the big bucks, but that cart is too far ahead of the horse for someone as simple-minded about hoops as myself. I'm content being passive about future cap considerations and trusting this FO. It makes it easier for me to enjoy the progress of the team and players in real time


Yea, we have a few years so can take our time and just see how RJ progresses. We can all guess but nobody knows for sure how much RJ will improve or at all. There are def paths for him to become a really good player aka star so he is worth holding onto, unless there is a great deal out there. Loved the improvement he made last year with the shooting so I wouldnt underestimate his ability to keep getting better.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#157 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:34 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:i called Middleton the most underrated player years ago. i saw his potential as a scorer since he always had the ability to create jumpers off the dribble. don’t see the same with rj. maybe I’m wrong we’ll see


He was a legit # 2 and at different points he carried the Bucks when Giannis was unavailable or not in full gear. Sometimes your # 2 steps up and is your # 1. At the end of the day, having several guys who can alternate as # 1 is good enough to win a chip. It just comes down to who can step up during the playoffs and who cannot. Randle will have a chip on his shoulder this time and he has a lot to prove. And RJ was just average in his first playoff appearance too.

If RJ's destiny is to be a Middleton, that's fantastic. Him and Butler are maybe the two we can hope he emulate.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#158 » by robillionaire » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:37 pm

middleton was an all-star in 2019 and 2020, I don't think he needed to win the championship to get any credit as a good player
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#159 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:39 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
j4remi wrote:Man...I can't remember if it was here or the Coli forums, but I got damn near decapitated for suggesting Middleton as a FA target before he got maxed by Milwaukee. RJ is waaaaay ahead of that curve. Khris barely got credit until this championship run.


Impatience is rampant. We got him out of the cradle so his year 5 will be like year 3 for lots of guys. And in his year 3 he's already a bona fide starter who stuffs the stat sheet. Plus, guys are bitching about him being inadequate on offense while praising his emerging potential as a lock-down defender. Yet he averages robust offensive numbers on superior 3 point shooting already. I don't know what to say frankly other than relax folks

says the guy that wanted to get rid of Randle for peanuts before he broke out :lol:


That's not really called for Melo, especially since I awarded you a giant gold star for backing Randle when almost everyone else did not.

Face it, Randle was a spinning turnover machine in his first year as a Knick. Yet I, along with pretty much everyone else here, highly value the changes he made to his game and Julius is almost universally loved by Knicks fans now.

So take your experience with Randle and apply it to RJ perhaps. Me saying people are being impatient sometimes with RJ is not petty, it's my observation. Take it at face value because I'm saying RJ has been on an upward trend his whole career and he keeps getting better at various facets of the game. If he's not your bag, that's fine, but he is not someone we should give up on.
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Re: PG: Pistons vs Knicks 

Post#160 » by Chanel Bomber » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:40 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:i called Middleton the most underrated player years ago. i saw his potential as a scorer since he always had the ability to create jumpers off the dribble. don’t see the same with rj. maybe I’m wrong we’ll see

RJ hasn't flashed that potential yet, it's true.

I personally think he has the base talent and the work ethic to develop those shot creation skills, maybe not at an elite level like Middleton (you know I'm Team Middleton) but at a decent level hopefully. Someone you can rely upon as a third shot creator.

I think it's fine if RJ becomes an elite role player in the Shawn Marion, Jrue Holiday (without the Frank percentages in the playoffs) mold. Maybe a couple All-Star appearances, but in terms of game be someone who fills in the gaps and does a little bit of everything.

What matters most to me is that he becomes a winning, impact player, whether he's a role player or a star player. I think he provides a lot of the intangibles that are required to fit that description, but either way he will need to be more efficient from the field. I'm confident that he will.
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