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[seren]

How so? if we offered them the 2013 drafted player + Shump, that's worse than nothing?

My bad on shorter, I meant smaller.

It is worse than nothing when it costs you millions of dollars on additional contracts. If Clippers let CP3 go for nothing they will have 13 million dollars in cap space and I am pretty sure they can get an equivalent of a low draft pick and Shump with that kind of money.

Not only that we can't give them any contract shorter (Crawful and Jordan are next two big contracts besides Griffin and both expire at the same time as Amare/Chandler/Melo trio as Crawful's last years are not guaranteed), we can't give them any contract smaller as the discussed cap rules.

So question to Clippers is, is Shump worth that much to given up on valuable cap space and the burden of paying Amare or duplicating a position that they already have a young player at? My guess would be a solid no.

[riter]

" macute wrote:I haven't seen an answer to this question yet.
I believe the rule is that we have to be under the apron AFTER the sign and trade.
If so, doesn't this make it possible for us?"


this was Moocow007's response in another thread.

It will be pretty hard to be under the apron AFTER the sign and trade. NY is projected to be about $4-5 million over the apron. In a trade, since NY is over the tax, they only have about 25% leeway to work with.

Correct, it is "after", which is kinda why Grunwald was repeatedly saying "creative".

Gettin under the apron isn't an issue, completing a worthy trade and being under the apron after completion si the hard part.

For instance, for Chris Paul, financially....Amare and Felton works...25 outgoing, 19 incoming.

Thugger, isn't Josh Smith,Stevenson...for Tyson,Camby,Cope, White workable under that scenerio. I think that takes us under the apron or pretty close.

Josh solves our rebounding, fast breaking, and second option problem. Plus he can guard 4's on defense and play the 3 on offense, stretching the floor and staying out of melo's way. We've got two elite defenders and ATL can slide Horford over tho PF(they are not gettin Dwight Howard,

mmle/Kmart/Amare
Melo/Amare
Smoove/JR
Shump/JR
Felton/Prigs

this doesn't change our team much. We need a big that can move his feet and rebound.

[seren]

Thugger, isn't Josh Smith,Stevenson...for Tyson,Camby,Cope, White workable under that scenerio. I think that takes us under the apron or pretty close.

Josh solves our rebounding, fast breaking, and second option problem. Plus he can guard 4's on defense and play the 3 on offense, stretching the floor and staying out of melo's way. We've got two elite defenders and ATL can slide Horford over tho PF(they are not gettin Dwight Howard,

mmle/Kmart/Amare
Melo/Amare
Smoove/JR
Shump/JR
Felton/Prigs

this doesn't change our team much. We need a big that can move his feet and rebound.

The apron means you can't exceed 74 million that season if you do a sign and trade. Meaning there is no mmle, no extending JR unless either of these put us above that value.

So in your scenario and assuming JR gets his 5 million and we want to sign another 3 million player, we gotta be under 66 with Josh's contract which means he has to settle with a salary starting at less than 10 million dollars.

That is assuming Atlanta is willing to spend most of their cap space on Chandler/Camby duo.

[Thugger HBC]

The apron means you can't exceed 74 million that season if you do a sign and trade. Meaning there is no mmle, no extending JR unless either of these put us above that value.

So in your scenario and assuming JR gets his 5 million and we want to sign another 3 million player, we gotta be under 66 with Josh's contract which means he has to settle with a salary starting at less than 10 million dollars.

That is assuming Atlanta is willing to spend most of their cap space on Chandler/Camby duo.

I gotta look that one up, that wasn't my understanding.

[riter]

The apron means you can't exceed 74 million that season if you do a sign and trade. Meaning there is no mmle, no extending JR unless either of these put us above that value.

So in your scenario and assuming JR gets his 5 million and we want to sign another 3 million player, we gotta be under 66 with Josh's contract which means he has to settle with a salary starting at less than 10 million dollars.

That is assuming Atlanta is willing to spend most of their cap space on Chandler/Camby duo.

that really sucks, if that's the case, but I still do this trade, although JR is a bargain at 5 mill, I don't think he and JSmoove would work on the floor together.

?/kmart
Melo/Amare
Smoove (around 15mil a year/no one is giving him the max, will get attention he craves in NY + Woody)
Shump
Felton/Prigs

using the 3mill and vet min for size at the 5 and scoring off the bench. this lineup can beat Indy and the Bulls and we don't have to start all over. Also, I don't think ATL gets Howard or CP3- so I think they waive Camby
and a bunch of their other players to start over.

[Thugger HBC]

The apron means you can't exceed 74 million that season if you do a sign and trade. Meaning there is no mmle, no extending JR unless either of these put us above that value.

So in your scenario and assuming JR gets his 5 million and we want to sign another 3 million player, we gotta be under 66 with Josh's contract which means he has to settle with a salary starting at less than 10 million dollars.

That is assuming Atlanta is willing to spend most of their cap space on Chandler/Camby duo.

that really sucks, if that's the case, but I still do this trade, although JR is a bargain at 5 mill, I don't think he and JSmoove would work on the floor together.

?/kmart
Melo/Amare
Smoove (around 15mil a year/no one is giving him the max, will get attention he craves in NY + Woody)
Shump
Felton/Prigs

using the 3mill and vet min for size at the 5 and scoring off the bench. this lineup can beat Indy and the Bulls and we don't have to start all over. Also, I don't think ATL gets Howard or CP3- so I think they waive Camby
and a bunch of their other players to start over.

i still have yet to find this info.

Seren, where did you see it at?

[kosmovitelli]

" macute wrote:I haven't seen an answer to this question yet.
I believe the rule is that we have to be under the apron AFTER the sign and trade.
If so, doesn't this make it possible for us?"


this was Moocow007's response in another thread.

It will be pretty hard to be under the apron AFTER the sign and trade. NY is projected to be about $4-5 million over the apron. In a trade, since NY is over the tax, they only have about 25% leeway to work with.

Yep. If you contemplate a sign and trade for the Knicks, keep in mind the team must be under the apron after the trade (meaning the team has to be leaning towards a lower payroll) and the apron effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season after the sign and trade transaction is completed. That's the rule.
In summary, if you complete a sign and trade transaction :
- the apron becomes a hard cap
- no taxpayer's MLE

[Thugger HBC]

Kosmo, where is that written I'd love to see it.

[seren]

Kosmo, where is that written I'd love to see it.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

A different team salary definition is used for determining whether a team is above or below the apron -- see question number 14 for details. Starting in 2013-14 if a team acquires a player in a sign-and-trade, the apron ($4 million above the tax line) effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season.

[gelek]

Basically there are only two viable options for us to add multiple pieces in addition to an eventual TaxMLE signing:

- Trading Stat:
i) Some team with capspace has to take on a stat. I would actually see that as a slight possibility at this point since there is a higher floor in the new CBA and I think a lot of these "rent a capspace" deals will happen.
ii) Brooklyn is desperate enough to make a move and they do a trade like Camby+Novak+Stoudamire for Wallace+Humphries. Under the CBA since both teams can configure a trade to their best fit this would net us a TPE of about 11M (and would get us two highly proficient rebounders one of which is an expiring contract). But it also would start filling post15 capspace.

- Packaging retiring players. Say Q-Rich and EarlB got unguaranteed 2nd years. Then we could package Camby/Kidd/Earl/Q-Rich/White who stand to make almost 10m for a player. Shawn Marion would be an actual possibility this way.

It depends on whether those player want to retire since the only way they can be "bought out" for zero is if they're okay with that. The way the CBA is set up right now, they could retire and still insist on getting paid the contract. Only if their waiver procedure it set up in a way where they forego further demands would this entice Dallas.


Having said that, say Charlotte takes Pick24+Stat for Haywood (15/16 contract is unguaranteed) + 19M TPE that would leave us with

Tyson Haywood (Dallas...)
Melo xxx
Marion Novak
Shump xxx
Felton xxx

with a 19M TPE and Pick 13 in the draft.
So at that point we are at

Tyson 14M
Haywood 2M
Melo 21.5M
Marion 9.2M
Novak 3.8M
Shump 2.6M
Felton 3.8M
and with 5 cap holds of .45M
With the TPE we would then be at 78.15M

If we keep JR (early Bird), Prigs (Non-Bird Exception) and Cope + the #13 and whatever players we can get with the TPE we are looking pretty good.

Ok but to in order to satisfy the CP3 rumours here's taking it to the next level:
Ultimate homer discount:

S&T
Felton, #13 for top59protected 2nd + CP3 3yrs starting at 12 with PO after 2.

The 3 year contract with opt-out would allow CP3 to get a Max with an early bird exception contract after 2 years -> in 2015 for let's say 4/5 years. Yeah fat chance he would do it but then again this whole scenario is unlikely.

It would actually leave us with 2 TPE's one for Felton at 3.6M and one for 7M after the CP3 trade (from our POV we sent them Felton+Draft Pick for next-to-nothing and then 12m TPE for CP3.

Say we sign JR for another 2 year contract with opt out after one at 3M, we retain Cope and Prigs for the QO (actually two year contracts with PO after one), then we'd be at:

Tyson14M Haywood2M
Melo 21.5M Cope 0.8M
Marion 9.2M Novak 3.8M
Shump 2.6M JR 3M
CP3 12M Prigs 0.8M
2 caphold 0.45M each
70.6M. At that point we have non TAXMLE / TPE 3.6M / TPE 7M but since we're not allowed to cross 74M we would then only use some of them (probably the TAXMLE for accounting reasons).

Of course the Salary Cap (and Lux Threshold) could be higher this year which would give us more Flexbility.

In any case I would then probably add 5 "unproven" players with unguaranteed contracts that could be waived without caphit until january 10th and figure out which two to keep. the rest (almost 3.4m) could then be used to pick up veterans right around/after the trade deadline.

So yeah, never gonna happen, but theoretically possible...

[seren]

What a great idea to pay 38 million dollars for a 24th pick. Where do we sign?

[Thugger HBC]

Kosmo, where is that written I'd love to see it.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

A different team salary definition is used for determining whether a team is above or below the apron -- see question number 14 for details. Starting in 2013-14 if a team acquires a player in a sign-and-trade, the apron ($4 million above the tax line) effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season.

Thanks, i heard people mention it before but never saw it anywhere.

[seren]

Kosmo, where is that written I'd love to see it.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

A different team salary definition is used for determining whether a team is above or below the apron -- see question number 14 for details. Starting in 2013-14 if a team acquires a player in a sign-and-trade, the apron ($4 million above the tax line) effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season.

Thanks, i heard people mention it before but never saw it anywhere.

when in doubt, check cbafaq.com. in all likelihood the answer is there.

[spaceballer]

S&T
Felton, #13 for top59protected 2nd + CP3 3yrs starting at 12 with PO after 2.

The 3 year contract with opt-out would allow CP3 to get a Max with an early bird exception contract after 2 years -> in 2015 for let's say 4/5 years.

This is not allowed. Sign and Trade contracts must be at least 3 years, not including any option years, though only the 1st year must be guaranteed. This means he can't opt out before 3 yrs are up. Nor can the Knicks waive him after the first guaranteed year and then immediately re-sign him to a larger contract, since I'm sure someone else will pick him up off the waiver wire.

Also, you can't combine exceptions. So you can't combine a TPE from a offloading Stat to another team with the trade exception of Felton's salary and percentage takeback in order to give CP3 a 12M starting salary.

And a $12M starting salary would be higher than the $5M from early bird rights that would accrue after 2 yrs anyway. So it's not like opting out after 2 yrs would allow you to give him $17M. The higher number would obtain, you don't add them together. Exceptions can't be combined with exceptions, free cap space, or existing player salaries to increase the amount you can pay someone. They're not additive.

[gelek]

S&T
Felton, #13 for top59protected 2nd + CP3 3yrs starting at 12 with PO after 2.

The 3 year contract with opt-out would allow CP3 to get a Max with an early bird exception contract after 2 years -> in 2015 for let's say 4/5 years.

This is not allowed. Sign and Trade contracts must be at least 3 years, not including any option years, though only the 1st year must be guaranteed. This means he can't opt out before 3 yrs are up. Nor can the Knicks waive him after the first guaranteed year and then immediately re-sign him to a larger contract, since I'm sure someone else will pick him up off the waiver wire.

Also, you can't combine exceptions. So you can't combine a TPE from a offloading Stat to another team with the trade exception of Felton's salary and percentage takeback in order to give CP3 a 12M starting salary.

And a $12M starting salary would be higher than the $5M from early bird rights that would accrue after 2 yrs anyway. So it's not like opting out after 2 yrs would allow you to give him $17M. The higher number would obtain, you don't add them together. Exceptions can't be combined with exceptions, free cap space, or existing player salaries to increase the amount you can pay someone. They're not additive.

Three things:

- Ok, forgot about the 3 year deal. Then give him a 4 year deal with an opt out after 3.

- We're not combining Felton's TPE and cashback and whatnot. We are looking at that transaction as two independent deals. One is top59 protected 2nd (so that it's not something for nothing) for Felton's contract and #13. The other is (Part of) Stat's TPE for CP3. For trading purposes a trade can be looked at for each team to be most convenient. The only thing that is not allowed is immediate turnaround stuff (say create a TPE in a trade only to take back some players for that TPE which in effect would circumvent the 125% matching rule).

- Well early bird is either 104.5% of average salary (your 5m figure) or 175% of previous salary whichever is higher. So it would be allowed under that circumstance. But since he'd need to take a 3 year deal this whole point is moot anyways.

[spaceballer]

S&T
Felton, #13 for top59protected 2nd + CP3 3yrs starting at 12 with PO after 2.

The 3 year contract with opt-out would allow CP3 to get a Max with an early bird exception contract after 2 years -> in 2015 for let's say 4/5 years.

This is not allowed. Sign and Trade contracts must be at least 3 years, not including any option years, though only the 1st year must be guaranteed. This means he can't opt out before 3 yrs are up. Nor can the Knicks waive him after the first guaranteed year and then immediately re-sign him to a larger contract, since I'm sure someone else will pick him up off the waiver wire.

Also, you can't combine exceptions. So you can't combine a TPE from a offloading Stat to another team with the trade exception of Felton's salary and percentage takeback in order to give CP3 a 12M starting salary.

And a $12M starting salary would be higher than the $5M from early bird rights that would accrue after 2 yrs anyway. So it's not like opting out after 2 yrs would allow you to give him $17M. The higher number would obtain, you don't add them together. Exceptions can't be combined with exceptions, free cap space, or existing player salaries to increase the amount you can pay someone. They're not additive.

Three things:

- Ok, forgot about the 3 year deal. Then give him a 4 year deal with an opt out after 3.

- We're not combining Felton's TPE and cashback and whatnot. We are looking at that transaction as two independent deals. One is top59 protected 2nd (so that it's not something for nothing) for Felton's contract and #13. The other is (Part of) Stat's TPE for CP3. For trading purposes a trade can be looked at for each team to be most convenient. The only thing that is not allowed is immediate turnaround stuff (say create a TPE in a trade only to take back some players for that TPE which in effect would circumvent the 125% matching rule).

- Well early bird is either 104.5% of average salary (your 5m figure) or 175% of previous salary whichever is higher. So it would be allowed under that circumstance. But since he'd need to take a 3 year deal this whole point is moot anyways.

Technically, since the Clippers hold CP3's bird rights, any contract he signs with them, including S&T will have full bird rights from the very first day. So there's no need to wait 2yrs for early bird rights. That's why they built in the 3yr stipulation, and that the S&T contract can't have bird raises or the extra bird year. So that you can't circumvent things with an early opt-out, or enjoy bird benefits if you want to move to another team. Despite these restrictions, technically, he does have full bird rights from the very first day of the contract. No need to be on the Knicks for 2 yrs for early bird rights, or 3 yrs for full bird rights. He doesn't enjoy any bird rights benefits in a S&T contract, but he nonetheless retains full bird rights from the very first day of the contract on the knicks.

[nyshakespeare]

Really curious to see how the new CBA is going to affect the offers players are going to get this summer.

[BowlRips]

do q-rich and earl barron have unguaranteed 2nd years?
if thats the case that gives us about 3-4 mil in trade chips]

[StephNYKurry]

Somebody help me with why we can't sign and trade JR and the purpose behind the rule.

[spaceballer]

Somebody help me with why we can't sign and trade JR and the purpose behind the rule.

You can indeed sign and trade JR AWAY from NY.

You can always sign and trade one of your own free agents AWAY to another team, regardless of whether you're over the apron or not. But only for what you are able to sign him to using your free cap space or exceptions. This means you won't be able to sign and trade JR for $10M a yr to another team because the Knicks aren't able to sign him for that much money in the first place.

You just can't ACCEPT a free agent in a sign and trade if it leaves you over the apron. But you can accept non-free agents, i.e. players already under contract.

But there's no reason for another team or JR to seek such a sign and trade if they are able to sign him using free cap space or MLE or something, since there is no benefit contract-wise for either JR or the other team.

The only scenario for a JR Smith sign and trade would be if there's a capped out team that wants JR and he has agreed to sign with them for less than he can make on the Knicks. If it's more than he can potentially make on the Knicks, the Knicks wouldn't have the money to sign and trade him if they can't sign him in the first place. Further, that other team must also remain under the apron after receiving JR Smith, as well as hard cap themselves the apron for the rest of the season.

So, you need the following conditions:
1) JR Smith wants to go to another team that will pay him less than or equal to what the Knicks can pay him (can't be more or it would be outside the Knick's sign and trade range). You can't force him, it has to be his choice.
2) That other team must be capped out and unable to get him any other way. Otherwise, no incentive to give up assets when they could just sign him outright.
3) That other team must be under the apron even after accepting JR Smith's new contract. (This is why Knicks can't accept free agents in sign and trades, since the Knicks would be over the apron)
4) That other team must be wiling to hardcap themselves to the apron for the rest of the season, including potentially forfeiting any MLE, BAE, TPE, or Bird rights to other players in order to remain under the apron.
5) That other team must also give up assets to the Knicks
6) The Knicks must choose to do this rather than sign JR themselves for less than or equal to whatever is the max they can offer him

Highly doubtful. Number one is especially dubious, especially if you think there's a danger of losing him to more than the Knicks can pay him in the first place.