Knicks Offseason review on the trade board

[Capn'O]

To add to that I think he's got possible problems with attitude in the locker room but that may just be a bad read from his Bulls days.

Ask 10 Bulls fans and you'll get 10 vastly different answers about this

I think he, Noah, and Melo get along. Noah basically followed him here. And Melo is BFF with Taps and will shadow him like a father to son. So that's something

[bondom34]

The range of scores is wrong or at least biased heavily. If the Lakers did what Phil did this summer, people would be giving them a range of A+ to B+.

You didn't read our Lakers reviews.

Edit:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1473646&hilit=lakers+offseason#start_here

F, C, D+ from the 3 neutral reviewers. And the C was me, pretty much fully on Ingram and Walton.

I'm just critiquing the critiques. Nothing personal but I believe they're biased. What you graded the Lakers is not very relevant, since they have a different team and made different moves. This is a head-scratcher to me.

I'll amend it and say that maybe you guys don't like the Lakers either, or maybe you're trying your hardest to be totally fair. I think the national media absolutely favors the Lakers over the Knicks ... maybe for "good" reasons but it's still bias.

I stated in my review I liked some of the things they did as well. I'm not afraid to say either way, and I've given high grades to teams I like very little. I explained it above, but overpaying Noah was the killer, and the Rose trade was a loss. I liked Hornacek as a hire,and the other free agents were fine but when the 2 biggest moves are awful, its a bad grade.

Grant was tossed in

Low on Holiday?

I'm asking in earnest. I don't know much about him but a bunch of Bulls fans were upset he was included.

Not low per se, but lower than Grant. He's older, not much better if at all, and has less time on his contract.

[bondom34]

To add to that I think he's got possible problems with attitude in the locker room but that may just be a bad read from his Bulls days.

Ask 10 Bulls fans and you'll get 10 vastly different answers about this

I think he, Noah, and Melo get along. Noah basically followed him here. And Melo is BFF with Taps and will shadow him like a father to son. So that's something

That's fair. I have no real idea what's true there .

[AmazingJason]

Give me a "hell to the yeah" if you're sick of the off-season bullsh*t and want to get the season started already.

[BKlutch]

If you guys are happy with the offseason, then **** what other people think about it.

Agreed. However it would be nice if they kept their unsolicited takes to themselves. This thread is basically a "take a look at us bashing your team" circle jerk. It's a troll attempt. Nothing more.

We've done it to every team in the league...

Fixed.

[HEZI]

i don't what would be more ideal, rose sucking it up or him getting hurt and ennings sucking it up.

i win either way.

Knicks season definitely depends on Rose. If he builds on the second half of last season and stays healthy, the Knicks win (games). If he's more or less the same player as last year or gets hurt, the Knicks lose (and if they lose enough, the franchise wins.)


Noah won't move the needle too much on his own, but his health I'm MUCH more worried about.

I'll add this. Had they signed Jennings and not gotten Rose, I'd actually feel better about the team. I honestly think Jennings is the better player right now.

Funny you say that because Rose is one of the main reasons that Jennings decided he wanted to come to the Knicks. Him and Rose are good friends and work out in LA in the summer, so Rose was actually responsible for bringing Jennings to the Knicks. But anyways, I would love to hear why you believe Jennings is a better player than Rose.

[knickstape21]

Crazy how many people are down on DRose.

"Declining"
"Shell of himself"
"Worst player in the league at one point"
"Injury Prone"
"Inefficient"

Message to the haters and doubters: Keep hating and doubting. We want you to hate and doubt.

[bondom34]

Knicks season definitely depends on Rose. If he builds on the second half of last season and stays healthy, the Knicks win (games). If he's more or less the same player as last year or gets hurt, the Knicks lose (and if they lose enough, the franchise wins.)


Noah won't move the needle too much on his own, but his health I'm MUCH more worried about.

I'll add this. Had they signed Jennings and not gotten Rose, I'd actually feel better about the team. I honestly think Jennings is the better player right now.

Funny you say that because Rose is one of the main reasons that Jennings decided he wanted to come to the Knicks. Him and Rose are good friends and work out in LA in the summer, so Rose was actually responsible for bringing Jennings to the Knicks. But anyways, I would love to hear why you believe Jennings is a better player than Rose.

The last 2 years Jennings has been better. RPM has him ranked 39th to Rose at 77, he was better by a large margin last season.

http://bkref.com/tiny/s1wuK

His season stats (granted he got hurt) overall much better than Rose, with a lower TO rate, better assist:TO, more efficient, shot the 3 better, rebounded better, heck even defended a bit better. Statistically he was just better.

Fixed.

Not sure what you're getting at, but hey, if you'd like to write these up for 30 teams go for it. I have no hate for the Knicks, and generally stick up for you guys, I didn't like moves made. Don't know what to tell you.

[KnicksGod]

There are a lot of things you can say about different moves, but when you call getting an expiring contract of a guy who can score, and you need scoring in the backcourt, awful ... that seems like mistaken analysis.

IF it's part of a critique that says The Knicks should have absolutely let Melo go, and started over, then I buy it some more. I wanted that. But the way they built the team, preserved (added to) picks, and kept the cap pretty clean, while keeping Melo (who now looks like a pretty normal contract for a good player), was fine too.

Rose fills a need as a guard who can score, and he had a good second half. I think calling that move awful is hyperbole, if not bias. He will be expiring this summer anyway. Awful? No.

Adding Noah long term is not some obvious disaster. It's a risky contract yes, but it was not an awful gamble.

Please with RoLo already. He's a very good reserve and probably a net-positive starter.

This value contracts thing -- overrated. So if RoLo was making $3M more per year, he'd be some bad player and bad contract? Kind of silly. Lots of teams waste $3M of cap room every year -- at least -- and probably every team has at least one $3M mistake or overpay on their cap. I don't see why saving that amount in a contract is so awesome. It's not. RoLo is not some All Star or hidden gem. There's not an overwhelming likelihood that he's going to contribute more than Noah over the coming years, even if you take Noah's bigger $ into account.

I hereby state that the Value Contracts line of reasoning is off the rails. It doesn't take into account what you can or are really likely to do with the saved money, and it seems to be a big distraction from how good the player actually is or is not.

RoLo is on a reasonable contract and that's where it ends. He is a solid player and that's it. Noah is more versatile to fit with KP as well, and he has a higher ceiling still if he can muster some health. RoLo was never close to JoNo's prime and JoNo may have some life left.

[blueNorange]

Crazy how many people are down on DRose.

"Declining"
"Shell of himself"
"Worst player in the league at one point"
"Injury Prone"
"Inefficient"

Message to the haters and doubters: Keep hating and doubting. We want you to hate and doubt.

hahaha, what is this. what are you doing.

[bondom34]

Free agency is entirely about value contracts. In that case, the Mozgov signing was great too. Barnes's contract is wonderful. Evan Turner is great. And Rose isn't good at scoring.

Oddly enough, Portland? Yeah they got a D too. And I happen to like them a lot.

[KnicksGod]

Free agency is entirely about value contracts. In that case, the Mozgov signing was great too. Barnes's contract is wonderful. Evan Turner is great. And Rose isn't good at scoring.

There are some guys you should stay away from entirely. That's probably what Mozgov and Deng were for the Lakers. That's different. And saving $10M is different from saving $3M. At $3M more, nobody would be talking about RoLo as a value contract.

Noah was the one gamble they took. They had to pretty much. Need a big man. He might be tradable if need be. Not sure Moz or Deng are.

There's nothing awful about rolling the dice on one season with Rose, on the hope that he's a good scorer who gives you punch in the backcourt. If it's awful, then what would you have done instead? Trade Melo? That's the only other possibility that makes a lot of sense. If you keep Melo, you need to see if you can get into the playoffs. Period.

[NOOB77]

The only downside of the Rose deal is if he has a decent season and we are the 7-8th seed. Then I think we are screwed. Otherwise if he sucks or gets injured so what he expires and we have a lotto pick.

[bondom34]

Free agency is entirely about value contracts. In that case, the Mozgov signing was great too. Barnes's contract is wonderful. Evan Turner is great. And Rose isn't good at scoring.

There are some guys you should stay away from entirely. That's probably what Mozgov and Deng were for the Lakers. That's different. And saving $10M is different from saving $3M. At $3M more, nobody would be talking about RoLo as a value contract.

Noah was the one gamble they took. They had to pretty much. Need a big man. He might be tradable if need be. Not sure Moz or Deng are.

There's nothing awful about rolling the dice on one season with Rose, on the hope that he's a good scorer who gives you punch in the backcourt. If it's awful, then what would you have done instead? Trade Melo? That's the only other possibility that makes a lot of sense. If you keep Melo, you need to see if you can get into the playoffs. Period.

Me? Wouldn't have traded for Rose, kept Lopez, not needed Noah, gone after any other PG in free agency or trade. Pretty simple. I'd have taken Jennings alone and kept Calderon over trading Lopez and overpaying Noah to replace him.

But the persecution complex is just dead false and kind of worn out. I stick up for the Knicks constantly on the GB, and gave other teams I like poor grades if they screwed up too. Go after literally any free agent PG and its 1000X better than 4/72 on Noah because you needed to replace Lopez for an expiring PG who isn't very good.

[KnicksGod]

The only downside of the Rose deal is if he has a decent season and we are the 7-8th seed. Then I think we are screwed. Otherwise if he sucks or gets injured so what he expires and we have a lotto pick.

Yeah pretty much. Low-risk gamble with some upside. Not much downside if any. Just not sure how that can be deemed awful.

[knickstape21]

The Knicks have set themselves up nicely. They have all of their picks moving forward, including a couple extra 2nd round picks, they have a future top player in the NBA in Porzingis, and have a team this season that could potentially compete in the Eastern Conference. You guys do know you can rebuild and compete at the same time right? Throw all of those numbers out of the window and actually think about those guys playing against the competiton. I give them a chance basically every night. There are so many different variables to a basketball game that makes the numbers almost irrelevant to me.

That dude said Derrick Rose was, at one point, the worst player in the league...... is that serious? The WORST player in the league? I can't wait for this season to start.

[bondom34]

The Knicks have set themselves up nicely. They have all of their picks moving forward, including a couple extra 2nd round picks, they have a future top player in the NBA in Porzingis, and have a team this season that could potentially compete in the Eastern Conference. You guys do know you can rebuild and compete at the same time right? Throw all of those numbers out of the window and actually think about those guys playing against the competiton. I give them a chance basically every night. There are so many different variables to a basketball game that makes the numbers almost irrelevant to me.

That dude said Derrick Rose was, at one point, the worst player in the league...... is that serious? The WORST player in the league? I can't wait for this season to start.

Bottom 20?
http://bkref.com/tiny/ZZO7P

[knickstape21]

Free agency is entirely about value contracts. In that case, the Mozgov signing was great too. Barnes's contract is wonderful. Evan Turner is great. And Rose isn't good at scoring.

There are some guys you should stay away from entirely. That's probably what Mozgov and Deng were for the Lakers. That's different. And saving $10M is different from saving $3M. At $3M more, nobody would be talking about RoLo as a value contract.

Noah was the one gamble they took. They had to pretty much. Need a big man. He might be tradable if need be. Not sure Moz or Deng are.

There's nothing awful about rolling the dice on one season with Rose, on the hope that he's a good scorer who gives you punch in the backcourt. If it's awful, then what would you have done instead? Trade Melo? That's the only other possibility that makes a lot of sense. If you keep Melo, you need to see if you can get into the playoffs. Period.

Me? Wouldn't have traded for Rose, kept Lopez, not needed Noah, gone after any other PG in free agency or trade. Pretty simple. I'd have taken Jennings alone and kept Calderon over trading Lopez and overpaying Noah to replace him.

But the persecution complex is just dead false and kind of worn out. I stick up for the Knicks constantly on the GB, and gave other teams I like poor grades if they screwed up too. Go after literally any free agent PG and its 1000X better than 4/72 on Noah because you needed to replace Lopez for an expiring PG who isn't very good.

I totally 100% disagree with you. Kept Calderon? Dude.. keeping Calderon does nothing. He was the most ineffective, declining player I've ever seen. Give me the 'chance' on Derrick Rose all day every day.

What other PG do you suggest after Jennings in FA? Pay Conley 150 mil? Bayless? No shot.

Noah brings a different type of edge to this team. Lopez was slow and lumbering. The Knicks want to move. Look for Noah at the elbow all season swinging that ball around. I can't wait. Love his athleticism also being able to switch on to forwards if needed.

[bondom34]

There are some guys you should stay away from entirely. That's probably what Mozgov and Deng were for the Lakers. That's different. And saving $10M is different from saving $3M. At $3M more, nobody would be talking about RoLo as a value contract.

Noah was the one gamble they took. They had to pretty much. Need a big man. He might be tradable if need be. Not sure Moz or Deng are.

There's nothing awful about rolling the dice on one season with Rose, on the hope that he's a good scorer who gives you punch in the backcourt. If it's awful, then what would you have done instead? Trade Melo? That's the only other possibility that makes a lot of sense. If you keep Melo, you need to see if you can get into the playoffs. Period.

Me? Wouldn't have traded for Rose, kept Lopez, not needed Noah, gone after any other PG in free agency or trade. Pretty simple. I'd have taken Jennings alone and kept Calderon over trading Lopez and overpaying Noah to replace him.

But the persecution complex is just dead false and kind of worn out. I stick up for the Knicks constantly on the GB, and gave other teams I like poor grades if they screwed up too. Go after literally any free agent PG and its 1000X better than 4/72 on Noah because you needed to replace Lopez for an expiring PG who isn't very good.

I totally 100% disagree with you. Kept Calderon? Dude.. keeping Calderon does nothing. He was the most ineffective, declining player I've ever seen. Give me the 'chance' on Derrick Rose all day every day.

What other PG do you suggest after Jennings in FA? Pay Conley 150 mil? Bayless? No shot.

Noah brings a different type of edge to this team. Lopez was slow and lumbering. The Knicks want to move. Look for Noah at the elbow all season swinging that ball around. I can't wait. Love his athleticism also being able to switch on to forwards if needed.

Lin, Lawson, Rondo. Anyone. And Noah's a great locker room guy. Not for 72 mil though. If Noah's healthy for 4 years and plays like 2014, that's a great signing. The odds of that are not good.

I'm not even saying you have to start Calderon, but if you don't trade for Rose you don't need Noah and can use money on any PG you want. I'd have taken quite a few of the FAs over Rose (Lin, Clarkson, Rondo, Bayless, among others).

[knickstape21]

The Knicks have set themselves up nicely. They have all of their picks moving forward, including a couple extra 2nd round picks, they have a future top player in the NBA in Porzingis, and have a team this season that could potentially compete in the Eastern Conference. You guys do know you can rebuild and compete at the same time right? Throw all of those numbers out of the window and actually think about those guys playing against the competiton. I give them a chance basically every night. There are so many different variables to a basketball game that makes the numbers almost irrelevant to me.

That dude said Derrick Rose was, at one point, the worst player in the league...... is that serious? The WORST player in the league? I can't wait for this season to start.

Bottom 20?
http://bkref.com/tiny/ZZO7P

I'm not clicking that link or any link you provide. I watch with my eyes. Its ridiculous to suggest that.