"A Tale of 2 Hardawayz"

[Kinglee]

Dude is a solid player. I didn't want him, especially for that contract, but he's still a solid player. It kills me how this organization constantly put players in terrible positions to succeed, yet the players always get the bad rep for it.

Its documented that I didn't want this guy. But you're crazy if you think this guy isn't a solid player in this league. Every player isn't a superstar. If the organization stop putting them in roles they shouldn't be in, we would appreciate them more.

[thebuzzardman]

Dude is a solid player. I didn't want him, especially for that contract, but he's still a solid player. It kills me how this organization constantly put players in terrible positions to succeed, yet the players always get the bad rep for it.

Its documented that I didn't want this guy. But you're crazy if you think this guy isn't a solid player in this league. Every player isn't a superstar. If the organization stop putting them in roles they shouldn't be in, we would appreciate them more.

18 million for "solid" is bad business, especially on a team several years from contending.

I'd have taken the slightly less than solid Holiday for 1/4 the price and 1/2 the years. Mills had to go "get his guy" though.

When your brain trust is super motivated to throw 22 million a year at THJr and Baker, fans should be scared.

[thebuzzardman]

THJr would be better with a different role.

When I way role, I really mean team.

[Jonathan starks]

Right now he’s a volume scorer, but if he can get his efficiency to improve (granted dramatically) he could be an all star.

[E-Balla]

As a UofM grad, I'm a fan of Tim Hardaway Jr but I won't drink the Kool-Aid. Why? Simple. The Atlanta Hawks did NOT use him as the guy they ran their offense through. During the 2016-7 season, the Atlanta Hawks started THJr 30 out of the 79 games he played. That's LESS than 50%. Keep in mind, he received an opportunity to start d/t injury. Even still, the Hawks NEVER made this guy any more than the 3rd option on the team.

This is why he puts up nice numbers on a Knicks team going nowhere.

What complete ****. Tim started off the season on the bench last year playing 20 mpg in the first 18 games of the season, then took the 6th man role playing 25 mpg over the next 27 games and playing great, then the Hawks traded Threezus to open up a spot for him in the starting 5 and he averaged 33 mpg over the next 34 games putting up 18 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, and leading the team in minutes and points.

Over the last 35 games of that season here's the Hawks big 3:

Points - Timmy (612), Dennis (595), Millsap (470)
Minutes - Timmy (1119), Dennis (1053), Millsap (858)

Now Millsap got injured and per game averaged more than those two but per game it looks like:

Timmy: 32.9 mpg, 18.0 ppg
Millsap: 34.3 mpg, 18.8 ppg
Dennis: 32.9 mpg, 18.6 ppg

And remember Timmy started only 25 of those last 34 games (and when he started he played 34.1 mpg). Timmy was the clear 2nd best player, and he was Bud's most played player by the end of the season.

Now onto his play this year he got off to a rough start, then played like a legit 2nd option for a while, got hurt, and by the time he was back healthy KP was hurt and the season was dead.

I'd say he had just as good of a year as expected but having to be the best player the last 20 or so games made him look bad because that's not him. He's a mediocre 2nd option/good 3rd option kind of guy and I think its great he found a way to produce in a season where he was shooting a career low from 3, playing out of position, and was banged up. He's still a 25 year old giving us 18/4/3 every night and since he's gotten healthy without KP he's averaging 20.2/3.5/2.4 on 56.1 TS% (19 games too).

IDK what y'all expected beyond that. He's only making 16.7% of the cap this year (or equal to $10-10.5 million under the old cap) and y'all upset he's not an All Star. JJ Redick is making 23 mil, Harrison Barnes is making 23 mil, Batum is making 22 mil, Gallo is making 21 mil, Crabbe is making 19 mil, and Wes Matthews is making 18 mil. If I was grading his season I'd give him a C or C+. About what I expected, possibly a little better for being able to perform despite having injuries.

[E-Balla]

Dude is a solid player. I didn't want him, especially for that contract, but he's still a solid player. It kills me how this organization constantly put players in terrible positions to succeed, yet the players always get the bad rep for it.

Its documented that I didn't want this guy. But you're crazy if you think this guy isn't a solid player in this league. Every player isn't a superstar. If the organization stop putting them in roles they shouldn't be in, we would appreciate them more.

18 million for "solid" is bad business, especially on a team several years from contending.

I'd have taken the slightly less than solid Holiday for 1/4 the price and 1/2 the years. Mills had to go "get his guy" though.

When your brain trust is super motivated to throw 22 million a year at THJr and Baker, fans should be scared.

It isn't. Under the old cap we basically gave him a 4 year $40 million deal. For a 25 year old 2 guard capable of 18/4/3 that's great.

[Jonathan starks]

Dude is a solid player. I didn't want him, especially for that contract, but he's still a solid player. It kills me how this organization constantly put players in terrible positions to succeed, yet the players always get the bad rep for it.

Its documented that I didn't want this guy. But you're crazy if you think this guy isn't a solid player in this league. Every player isn't a superstar. If the organization stop putting them in roles they shouldn't be in, we would appreciate them more.

18 million for "solid" is bad business, especially on a team several years from contending.

I'd have taken the slightly less than solid Holiday for 1/4 the price and 1/2 the years. Mills had to go "get his guy" though.

When your brain trust is super motivated to throw 22 million a year at THJr and Baker, fans should be scared.

It isn't. Under the old cap we basically gave him a 4 year $40 million deal. For a 25 year old 2 guard capable of 18/4/3 that's great.

Pretty much agree, but he needs to find his shooting stroke

[JXL]

Dude is a solid player. I didn't want him, especially for that contract, but he's still a solid player. It kills me how this organization constantly put players in terrible positions to succeed, yet the players always get the bad rep for it.

Its documented that I didn't want this guy. But you're crazy if you think this guy isn't a solid player in this league. Every player isn't a superstar. If the organization stop putting them in roles they shouldn't be in, we would appreciate them more.

18 million for "solid" is bad business, especially on a team several years from contending.

I'd have taken the slightly less than solid Holiday for 1/4 the price and 1/2 the years. Mills had to go "get his guy" though.

When your brain trust is super motivated to throw 22 million a year at THJr and Baker, fans should be scared.

It isn't. Under the old cap we basically gave him a 4 year $40 million deal. For a 25 year old 2 guard capable of 18/4/3 that's great.

Basic stats don't mean squat in this era. Go deeper than that, and he's basically a volume chucker. That doesn't help a team win games. Ask Melo.

[dakomish23]

As a UofM grad, I'm a fan of Tim Hardaway Jr but I won't drink the Kool-Aid. Why? Simple. The Atlanta Hawks did NOT use him as the guy they ran their offense through. During the 2016-7 season, the Atlanta Hawks started THJr 30 out of the 79 games he played. That's LESS than 50%. Keep in mind, he received an opportunity to start d/t injury. Even still, the Hawks NEVER made this guy any more than the 3rd option on the team.

This is why he puts up nice numbers on a Knicks team going nowhere.

What complete ****. Tim started off the season on the bench last year playing 20 mpg in the first 18 games of the season, then took the 6th man role playing 25 mpg over the next 27 games and playing great, then the Hawks traded Threezus to open up a spot for him in the starting 5 and he averaged 33 mpg over the next 34 games putting up 18 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, and leading the team in minutes and points.

Over the last 35 games of that season here's the Hawks big 3:

Points - Timmy (612), Dennis (595), Millsap (470)
Minutes - Timmy (1119), Dennis (1053), Millsap (858)

Now Millsap got injured and per game averaged more than those two but per game it looks like:

Timmy: 32.9 mpg, 18.0 ppg
Millsap: 34.3 mpg, 18.8 ppg
Dennis: 32.9 mpg, 18.6 ppg

And remember Timmy started only 25 of those last 34 games (and when he started he played 34.1 mpg). Timmy was the clear 2nd best player, and he was Bud's most played player by the end of the season.

Now onto his play this year he got off to a rough start, then played like a legit 2nd option for a while, got hurt, and by the time he was back healthy KP was hurt and the season was dead.

I'd say he had just as good of a year as expected but having to be the best player the last 20 or so games made him look bad because that's not him. He's a mediocre 2nd option/good 3rd option kind of guy and I think its great he found a way to produce in a season where he was shooting a career low from 3, playing out of position, and was banged up. He's still a 25 year old giving us 18/4/3 every night and since he's gotten healthy without KP he's averaging 20.2/3.5/2.4 on 56.1 TS% (19 games too).

IDK what y'all expected beyond that. He's only making 16.7% of the cap this year (or equal to $10-10.5 million under the old cap) and y'all upset he's not an All Star. JJ Redick is making 23 mil, Harrison Barnes is making 23 mil, Batum is making 22 mil, Gallo is making 21 mil, Crabbe is making 19 mil, and Wes Matthews is making 18 mil. If I was grading his season I'd give him a C or C+. About what I expected, possibly a little better for being able to perform despite having injuries.

16.7% isn’t a small number

[dakomish23]

Knicks continue to add big salary to their books for role players. At least he was young enough that we should get his prime years (in theory).

The production wasn’t awful for the salary but that’s an extremely low bar to set for FA signings.

Make him what he was always destined to be - a 6th man. I bet he does just as well. Ditto for Kanter.

[E-Balla]

18 million for "solid" is bad business, especially on a team several years from contending.

I'd have taken the slightly less than solid Holiday for 1/4 the price and 1/2 the years. Mills had to go "get his guy" though.

When your brain trust is super motivated to throw 22 million a year at THJr and Baker, fans should be scared.

It isn't. Under the old cap we basically gave him a 4 year $40 million deal. For a 25 year old 2 guard capable of 18/4/3 that's great.

Basic stats don't mean squat in this era. Go deeper than that, and he's basically a volume chucker. That doesn't help a team win games. Ask Melo.

He isn't though. Go deeper into his numbers and you'll find he's efficient outside of the period where he was recovering from his injury. He had a 36.5 TS% and 75 ORTG in the 9 games when he first got back from his injury and a 56 TS% (average is 55.7) and 110 ORTG (average is 109) in the other 46 games he played. Last year in Atlanta he had a 57 TS% and 110 ORTG. Not super efficient but clearly above average.

Then we can look at his boxscore composite numbers and they say the same. His 14.4 PER is above the median and slightly below the average (15) but his PER excluding the injury games is above average (16.1) as was his PER last year (15.2), his -0.2 BPM is average (average BPM is 0.0) and I don't have his BPM excluding the injury games but I'm sure its slightly above average (it was -0.3 in Atlanta last year), and his +1.4 simple rating is above average (average being 0.0) as was his simple rating in Atlanta (+6.1).

Go look at his +/- numbers and he's a decidedly average starter by those numbers too. He ranks 16th among SFs in RPM wins despite being injured a large part of the season (he'd rank 14th without the injury and he ranked 15th last year despite not starting most of the year), his +1.05 RAPM ranks 113th out of 522 players (average is 0.0) and last year he ranked 51st in RAPM, and his +3.1 APM is above average (average being 0.0) while his APM in Atlanta (+9.5) was elite.

I was using the boxscore to dumb it down for people like you but don't try to tell me what a player looks like at a deeper glance of the numbers if you personally don't know. No number exists that will tell you Tim isn't above average whether its his efficiency, +/-, or overall boxscore numbers.

[NoLayupRule]

Knicks continue to add big salary to their books for role players. At least he was young enough that we should get his prime years (in theory).

The production wasn’t awful for the salary but that’s an extremely low bar to set for FA signings.

Make him what he was always destined to be - a 6th man. I bet he does just as well. Ditto for Kanter.

the annoying thing is that were in a situation where we not only have to play role players starter money we have to play role players starting roles

its what comes from being a bad team

meanwhile you've got places like Clev and Houston where you have min contract signings for major impact players

whatever

someday we will get there again

but for now guys like Kanter and THjr are gonna be playing and gonna be needed to play major roles

incremental upgrades are the true way to build, not overnight homeruns

[E-Balla]

As a UofM grad, I'm a fan of Tim Hardaway Jr but I won't drink the Kool-Aid. Why? Simple. The Atlanta Hawks did NOT use him as the guy they ran their offense through. During the 2016-7 season, the Atlanta Hawks started THJr 30 out of the 79 games he played. That's LESS than 50%. Keep in mind, he received an opportunity to start d/t injury. Even still, the Hawks NEVER made this guy any more than the 3rd option on the team.

This is why he puts up nice numbers on a Knicks team going nowhere.

What complete ****. Tim started off the season on the bench last year playing 20 mpg in the first 18 games of the season, then took the 6th man role playing 25 mpg over the next 27 games and playing great, then the Hawks traded Threezus to open up a spot for him in the starting 5 and he averaged 33 mpg over the next 34 games putting up 18 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, and leading the team in minutes and points.

Over the last 35 games of that season here's the Hawks big 3:

Points - Timmy (612), Dennis (595), Millsap (470)
Minutes - Timmy (1119), Dennis (1053), Millsap (858)

Now Millsap got injured and per game averaged more than those two but per game it looks like:

Timmy: 32.9 mpg, 18.0 ppg
Millsap: 34.3 mpg, 18.8 ppg
Dennis: 32.9 mpg, 18.6 ppg

And remember Timmy started only 25 of those last 34 games (and when he started he played 34.1 mpg). Timmy was the clear 2nd best player, and he was Bud's most played player by the end of the season.

Now onto his play this year he got off to a rough start, then played like a legit 2nd option for a while, got hurt, and by the time he was back healthy KP was hurt and the season was dead.

I'd say he had just as good of a year as expected but having to be the best player the last 20 or so games made him look bad because that's not him. He's a mediocre 2nd option/good 3rd option kind of guy and I think its great he found a way to produce in a season where he was shooting a career low from 3, playing out of position, and was banged up. He's still a 25 year old giving us 18/4/3 every night and since he's gotten healthy without KP he's averaging 20.2/3.5/2.4 on 56.1 TS% (19 games too).

IDK what y'all expected beyond that. He's only making 16.7% of the cap this year (or equal to $10-10.5 million under the old cap) and y'all upset he's not an All Star. JJ Redick is making 23 mil, Harrison Barnes is making 23 mil, Batum is making 22 mil, Gallo is making 21 mil, Crabbe is making 19 mil, and Wes Matthews is making 18 mil. If I was grading his season I'd give him a C or C+. About what I expected, possibly a little better for being able to perform despite having injuries.

16.7% isn’t a small number

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

[dakomish23]

What complete ****. Tim started off the season on the bench last year playing 20 mpg in the first 18 games of the season, then took the 6th man role playing 25 mpg over the next 27 games and playing great, then the Hawks traded Threezus to open up a spot for him in the starting 5 and he averaged 33 mpg over the next 34 games putting up 18 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, and leading the team in minutes and points.

Over the last 35 games of that season here's the Hawks big 3:

Points - Timmy (612), Dennis (595), Millsap (470)
Minutes - Timmy (1119), Dennis (1053), Millsap (858)

Now Millsap got injured and per game averaged more than those two but per game it looks like:

Timmy: 32.9 mpg, 18.0 ppg
Millsap: 34.3 mpg, 18.8 ppg
Dennis: 32.9 mpg, 18.6 ppg

And remember Timmy started only 25 of those last 34 games (and when he started he played 34.1 mpg). Timmy was the clear 2nd best player, and he was Bud's most played player by the end of the season.

Now onto his play this year he got off to a rough start, then played like a legit 2nd option for a while, got hurt, and by the time he was back healthy KP was hurt and the season was dead.

I'd say he had just as good of a year as expected but having to be the best player the last 20 or so games made him look bad because that's not him. He's a mediocre 2nd option/good 3rd option kind of guy and I think its great he found a way to produce in a season where he was shooting a career low from 3, playing out of position, and was banged up. He's still a 25 year old giving us 18/4/3 every night and since he's gotten healthy without KP he's averaging 20.2/3.5/2.4 on 56.1 TS% (19 games too).

IDK what y'all expected beyond that. He's only making 16.7% of the cap this year (or equal to $10-10.5 million under the old cap) and y'all upset he's not an All Star. JJ Redick is making 23 mil, Harrison Barnes is making 23 mil, Batum is making 22 mil, Gallo is making 21 mil, Crabbe is making 19 mil, and Wes Matthews is making 18 mil. If I was grading his season I'd give him a C or C+. About what I expected, possibly a little better for being able to perform despite having injuries.

16.7% isn’t a small number

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

Disagree. I look at a good deal as one where what your receive is better than what you paid for. Mediocre production on mediocre efficiency at more than 15% of the cap is a losing proposition.

[E-Balla]

At the end of the day if we had a team full of guys on deals that matched their value like Hardaway, along with a healthy KP, we'd be at 45-50 wins. Our real problem is the combined 38 million for Noah and Kanter to give us horrible production.

[god shammgod]

there's no real difference between paying someone 16.7 percent or 25 percent because it takes away a slot that should be used for someone worth that much. you use about 70 to 75 percent for your top 3 and the rest on everyone else. if you have tim in one of those top 3 slots, how far can you go ?

[E-Balla]

16.7% isn’t a small number

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

Disagree. I look at a good deal as one where what your receive is better than what you paid for. Mediocre production on mediocre efficiency at more than 15% of the cap is a losing proposition.

It isn't though. He's still 25 with a chance to improve and make that contract a good contract and he wouldn't have to improve much to do it because he's already worth slightly more than he's being paid.

[god shammgod]

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

[dakomish23]

Tim’s salary
17-18 16.5
18-19 17.33
19-20 18.15
20-21 18.98

Average salary - 17.74

[ChaosHamster]

Tim tearing it up in the last ~25 games, again shows how league turns into complete garbage for the last 30 games.

With the exception when teams fighting for the play-offs play each other.

Other games are tanking teams trying to outtank each other with rolling out G-leaguers. Or even when PO teams play them, they know they aren't playing for ****, so they aren't giving even close to their 100%.