OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

[NoStatsGuy]

Btw, here are Jordan's career numbers when he played PG:

30.4 pts, 9.2 rebs, 10.7 asts & 2.4 stls.

So let's not pretend he couldn't do the same thing Lebron does.

he couldnt. its just not true, just like your team theory. mj had better teams than lebron thats a fact. wade was done pretty early and bosh wasnt more to the heat than kukoc was for the bulls.

i saw both careers, the talent level today is miles above the mj era. what lebron does impresses me way more. but im leaving this thread now, since this discussion is redundant. we wont get an answer. you mj lovers need to accept that this is a legit debate, like it or not.

[Guano]

It's a silly debate, but I will throw in my 2c anyway.

Jordan. Easily.

The only thing Bron has over Jordan is stats.

Jordan did his thing in an era of less spacing, way less 3 pt shooting, and significantly more physicality.

Jordan was also entirely capable of putting up the gaudy stats that Lebron does. He's every bit the all-around player.

Even without any of that though, Jordan is better simply because of his competitive fire. It dwarfs Bron's.

[GONYK]

Btw, here are Jordan's career numbers when he played PG:

30.4 pts, 9.2 rebs, 10.7 asts & 2.4 stls.

So let's not pretend he couldn't do the same thing Lebron does.

he couldnt. its just not true, just like your team theory. mj had better teams than lebron thats a fact. wade was done pretty early and bosh wasnt more to the heat than kukoc was for the bulls.

i saw both careers, the talent level today is miles above the mj era. what lebron does impresses me way more. but im leaving this thread now, since this discussion is redundant. we wont get an answer. you mj lovers need to accept that this is a legit debate, like it or not.

You seem to be mistaken on what your definition of "fact" is.

[egelband]

As a proud Knicks fan, I refuse to press the MJ button. But it’s MJ.

[BeagleBoss]

Whoever wasn't alive to see Jordan play cannot participate in this debate. And no, watching old games on youtube or ESPN Classic isn't enough. You didn't live in that era so you can't have an opinion.

Jordan was better than LeBron in every aspect of the game besides passing. Jordan was a more complete and better offensive player.
His fadeaway, pull up game and transition skills were unreal. And as clutch as LeBron has become, Jordan was better there too. And defensively it's where the argument gets silly cause it's not even close. LeBron is not a good one on one defender. Blocking shots from behind doesn't make you an elite defender. Jordan was the best or second best behind Pippen in man to man defense. In the 4th quarter, you couldn't score on Jordan unless you ran his guy through 3 screens and get him open. One on one, you were not going to score.

And Jordan didn't play in this pussied era and didn't crawl to Detroit to play with Isiah and Dumars or to Utah with Stockton and Malone.

[nykfan42]

You know that Scottie wouldn’t have been as good as he was without Michael pushing him as much as he did right? Dude really helped him become the player he was.

Also, Wade > Pippen hands down. Bosh you could say was > or = 34-36 year old Rodman. And they played in a much softer NBA more conducive to their games, and lost to old and weak teams in the Finals.

-How a player becomes great is irrelevant IMO.


Was he great?


Did Lebron help elevate Kyrie Irving's game?




-Pippen and Wade is a good argument. Me I vote Pippen.

Hands down????


-Bosh and Rodman where just different players.


- Yes, the team's Jordan beat where old and weak (30-somethings Jazz, the old ass post-dynasty Lakers and the meh Seattle Sonics), but I don't fault MJ for beating whoever was there to play for the championship.

What??? How is the fact that MJ helped Scottie become as good as he was irrelevant? When you’re saying Lebron with Pippen and Rodman could’ve won easily, it’s totally relevant because when you’re putting Lebron in Michael’s place, so you need to ask yourself if he could do the same for Scottie. And the fact that Kyrie bounced from the team (he didn’t really elevate Kyrie either btw) is a testament to the likelihood that he wouldn’t have.


You vote Pippen over Wade in his prime? That’s crazy, but of course you’d say that to support your arguement. Check the Player Comparion Board for their top 100 all time and you’ll see Wade like 10 spots ahead of Scottie on the list... and that’s counting longevity which Wade falls short on, but in terms of prime? Wade is even further ahead.


And uhhh, Jordan may have beaten an older Jazz team, but they were so much better than the Mavs or Spurs that Lebron lost to. You def forgot about the difference there.

I love how the argument against Michael is that he beat an old Jazz team. They were 62-20 and 64-18 in those years. Wow what bunch of washed up old bags huh?

[Sark]

and lebron will always have the blemish of 2011 on his record

if that year doesn't end that way, i don't think there's any discussion of putting him in the same sentence as mj. honestly, that's where a lot of the negative narratives about him come from, and no matter what he does for the rest of his career, people will always remember him losing to the mavs

mj never choked as hard as lebron did in that series. but mj also never had to overcome an opponent nearly as good as the 2016 warriors

No, he was the 2016 Warriors. He was the big bad monster, not the guy that needed the game of his life and got lucky to beat him.

Overcoming a great opponent doesn't make you better, otherwise Eli Manning has to be rated much higher for overcoming the 2007 Pats. Buster Douglas isn't a greater boxer than Floyd Mayweather for overcoming the odds to beat Mike Tyson, while Floyd has never been challenged in his pro career

[DOT]

and lebron will always have the blemish of 2011 on his record

if that year doesn't end that way, i don't think there's any discussion of putting him in the same sentence as mj. honestly, that's where a lot of the negative narratives about him come from, and no matter what he does for the rest of his career, people will always remember him losing to the mavs

mj never choked as hard as lebron did in that series. but mj also never had to overcome an opponent nearly as good as the 2016 warriors

No, he was the 2016 Warriors. He was the big bad monster, not the guy that needed the game of his life and got lucky to beat him.

Overcoming a great opponent doesn't make you better, otherwise Eli Manning has to be rated much higher for overcoming the 2007 Pats. Buster Douglas isn't a greater boxer than Floyd Mayweather for overcoming the odds to beat Mike Tyson, while Floyd has never been challenged in his pro career

that's a dumb argument

mj had the better team, therefore he's better than lebron?

so does that mean that since kd is the best player on the warriors, who are the big bad monster team, that we should be talking about him as goat?

like i said before. there's good arguments for both, and dumb arguments for both. especially cause basketball is a team sport, and boxing isn't. and eli is rated much higher than he should be cause his team beat the 07 patriots

[El Poochio]

Why are people acting like LeBron's career is over? Only needs a couple more seasons of this level of performance in New York to solidify longevity argument against MJ's invincibility

[nykfan42]

Here is a good article breaking down Michael and LeBron's teammates year by year. It's from a year ago but it's aligned with their first 14 years in the league.

We hold this NBA truth to be self-evident, that LeBron James' teams were not created equal.

Any time we start to debate LeBron's legacy — and with a few days still left before the 2017 Finals, we're having that conversation on an hourly basis — someone has to bring up The King's superteams.

He might be great, the thinking goes, but LeBron had an awful lot of help on his way to seven straight Finals (eight total) and three championships.

In fact, if you gave Michael Jordan LeBron's history of teammates, His Airness might be 10-for-10 in the Finals — or so his biggest fans would have you believe.

Just how big is LeBron's teammate-based advantage over MJ in reality, though? We're glad you asked.

We ran through the first 14 seasons of each legend's career, ignoring Jordan's final year in Washington, and parsed the five best teammates for both LeBron and Jordan in any given season. We then compared those five comrades on a year-by-year basis — LeBron's rookie team in 2003-04 vs. Jordan's first season in 1984-85, their respective sophomore seasons in 2004-05 and 1985-86, etc.

Our conclusion? While LeBron has had better teammates over his career than Jordan, the margin is substantially closer than you might think. Instead, when we talk about how much help he's had, we really mean something else altogether.

We'll get to that explanation in a minute. First, here's our year-by-year synopsis.

Year 1 (LeBron James: 2003-04; Michael Jordan: 1984-85)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Carlos Boozer, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Kevin Ollie, Jeff McInnis, Tony Battie

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Orlando Woolridge, Steve Johnson, Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Dave Greenwood

Everyone remembers how bad the Cavaliers were when LeBron first came into the league, but we forget that Cleveland actually had a young Boozer and a solid veteran big man in Big Z.

Only diehard Bulls fans could have named one of Michael Jordan's teammates as a rookie, on the other hand.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 2 (LeBron James: 2004-05; Michael Jordan: 1985-86)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilguaskas, Jeff McInnis, Anderson Varejao, Eric Snow

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Orlando Woolridge, Gene Banks, Kyle Macy, Charles Oakley, George Gervin

The Bulls addded a rookie Oak and employed the Iceman for his final season, but neither player was anywhere near his peak in 1985-86.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 3 (LeBron James: 2005-06; Michael Jordan: 1986-87)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Donyell Marshall, Damon Jones, Anderson Varejao

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: John Paxson, David Corzine, Gene Banks, Charles Oakley, Brad Sellers

1986-87 was the final year of the pre-Pippen era in Chicago, while LeBron was busy leading his Cavaliers to the playoffs and establishing Cleveland as a potential Finals contender in just his third season in the NBA. Having Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Donyell Marshall and Anderson Varejao didn't hurt his cause.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 4 (LeBron James: 2006-07; Michael Jordan: 1987-88)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Anderson Varejao, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Charles Oakley, John Paxson, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Dave Corzine

The Bulls 1987-88 roster has a lot of familiar names, but they were still a season away from coalescing into Jordan's first dominant squad. Chicago's youth gives LeBron the win in the same year he made the Finals for the first time.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 5 (LeBron James: 2007-08; Michael Jordan: 1988-89)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Boobie Gibson, Damon Jones, Anderson Varejao, Drew Gooden

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, John Paxson, Craig Hodges, Bill Cartwright

Most teams reach the NBA Finals and get better in subsequent seasons. Not the Cavaliers, who started to fall apart in 2008. When we talk about the awful, awful Cleveland teams LeBron dragged to the playoffs, this is the period we mean.

After trading Oakley to the Knicks for Cartwright, meanwhile, the Bulls reached the Eastern Conference finals for the first time in Jordan's career, beginning a stretch of dominance that redefined the NBA.

Advantage: MJ

Year 6 (LeBron James: 2008-09; Michael Jordan: 1989-90)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao, Delonte West, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Wally Szczerbiak

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, John Paxson, Bill Carwright, Stacey King

To be fair, that's "former NBA All-Star Wally Szczerbiak" to you.

No, seriously. That happened — in Minnesota alongside Kevin Garnett, but still!

Advantage: MJ

Year 7 (LeBron James: 2009-10; Michael Jordan: 1990-91)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Anderson Varejao, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, JJ Hickson, Shaquille O'Neal

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, John Paxson, Bill Cartwright, B.J. Armstrong

Ninety percent of the time, having Shaq as one of your teammates means you have the superior roster.

This is not one of those times. Big Diesel was washed up in Cleveland, and Jordan's Bulls were operating at full power in 1991.

Advantage: MJ

Year 8 (LeBron James: 2010-11; Michael Jordan: 1991-92)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, James Jones, Joel Anthony, Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Stacey King

LeBron's first "superteam" in Miami wasn't all that super, if we're being honest. Yes, the Heat had James, Wade and Bosh, but they still needed to add ring-chasing free agents to round out the roster.

Jordan gets the nod here, although Miami's top-heavy lineup makes this a close debate.

Advantage: MJ

Year 9 (LeBron James: 2011-12; Michael Jordan: 1992-93)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Mario Chalmers, Udonis Haslem, Shane Battier

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, Will Perdue, John Paxson

From 2011 to 2013, LeBron's Heat were at their best, although Ray Allen didn't join Miami until the summer of 2012.

These are the squads people point to as a sign of just how stacked LeBron's teams have been through the years, and they have a point.

Still, this round is exceedingly close as well. Really, comparing The King's superteams to His Airness' title squads boils down to how you feel about Pippen.

If you think Chicago's second-best player is one of the greatest of all time, you might think this Bulls squad is more talented than the Heat. If you think Pip's overrated, Wade & Co. have the clear advantage.

Personally, Pippen's one of the top 50 players of all time, but I give Miami the advantage for having Wade in his prime.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 10 (LeBron James: 2012-13; Michael Jordan: 1994-95)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Ray Allen, Mario Chalmers, Shane Battier

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, B.J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Will Perdue

Chicago's success in 1994-95, before Jordan returned from retirement for the first time, is one of the clearer indications of just how talented the rest of the Bulls were. But with Allen in Miami, LeBron racks up another year of having the better teammates.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 11 (LeBron James: 2013-14; Michael Jordan: 1995-96)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mario Chalmers

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Dennis Rodman

This is one of the more interesting results of our exercise — while LeBron's last Miami team was indeed super, the 72-10 Bulls were even better.

Yet for whatever reason, there seems to be a common assumption that LeBron's Finals-caliber squads were consistently better than Jordan's final three Chicago teams.

At worst, these two teams are neck and neck, with Harper and Rodman just outranking Chalmers and Battier.

Advantage: MJ

Year 12 (LeBron James: 2014-15; Michael Jordan: 1996-97)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, Timofey Mozgov, J.R. Smith

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper

Just like the first time he formed a superteam, LeBron returned to a Cavaliers team still looking to round into a real championship contender in 2014, while Jordan rode a wave of roster stability to another title.

Basically, no team with Mozgov in its top six players may prosper. That's in the Constitution.

Advantage: MJ

Year 13 (LeBron James: 2015-16; Michael Jordan: 1997-98)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, J.R. Smith, Matthew Dellavedova

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr

Two small changes tip Year 13 in LeBron's favor, even though these two squads were more or less unchanged from the year before: Cleveland getting rid of Mozgov, and Chicago suffering injuries to Pippen and Kerr as the Bulls clawed their way to one last championship.

Advantage: LeBron

Year 14 (LeBron James: 2016-17; Michael Jordan: 2001-02)
LeBron James' five best teammates: Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, Channing Frye, Richard Jefferson

Michael Jordan's five best teammates: Chris Whitney, Popeye Jones, Richard Hamilton, Jahidi White, Brendan Haywood

It almost seems unfair to compare a Cavs team headed to the Finals for the third consecutive time to Jordan's first Wizards squad, but a career is a career.

This is what happens when you un-retire for a second time, MJ. You end up playing with Popeye Jones and someone named "Jahidi White."

Advantage: LeBron

Conclusion
Despite a few close calls — and the late-90s Bulls being a far stronger team than most people realize — LeBron "wins" this argument, claiming the better teammates in eight of the fourteen seasons in our comparison.

Yet even if Jordan and LeBron had tied at seven seasons apiece, The King would take the crown here for one simple reason:

When people talk about LeBron having better teammates, they really mean he has another alpha scorer to rely on, not the overall talent level of his teams.

Scottie Pippen isn't much worse of an all-around player than Dwyane Wade, if he trails the future Hall of Famer at all. However, playing second fiddle to Jordan was in Pippen's DNA. He admitted as much recently, saying he neither had the clutch gene nor a killer instinct.

With the game on the line, the Bulls had to turn to Jordan. Even when he passed to guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr for game-winning shots, he was the defense's lone concern. His gravity created those open looks which turned into championships.

LeBron, on the other hand, has had the luxury of relying on Wade and Kyrie Irving if he's not up to the task of carrying the team in the clutch — and that desire to pass the rock in the closing minutes is the ultimate chasm between LeBron and Jordan.

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/proof-that-lebron-james-had-better-teammates-than-michael-jordan-052717

[Sark]

and lebron will always have the blemish of 2011 on his record

if that year doesn't end that way, i don't think there's any discussion of putting him in the same sentence as mj. honestly, that's where a lot of the negative narratives about him come from, and no matter what he does for the rest of his career, people will always remember him losing to the mavs

mj never choked as hard as lebron did in that series. but mj also never had to overcome an opponent nearly as good as the 2016 warriors

No, he was the 2016 Warriors. He was the big bad monster, not the guy that needed the game of his life and got lucky to beat him.

Overcoming a great opponent doesn't make you better, otherwise Eli Manning has to be rated much higher for overcoming the 2007 Pats. Buster Douglas isn't a greater boxer than Floyd Mayweather for overcoming the odds to beat Mike Tyson, while Floyd has never been challenged in his pro career

that's a dumb argument

mj had the better team, therefore he's better than lebron?

so does that mean that since kd is the best player on the warriors, who are the big bad monster team, that we should be talking about him as goat?

like i said before. there's good arguments for both, and dumb arguments for both. especially cause basketball is a team sport, and boxing isn't. and eli is rated much higher than he should be cause his team beat the 07 patriots

No, Michael Jordan also has better stats, at least on a per game basis. The only thing Lebron has over Jordan is longevity.

For peak play, Jordan wins.
For longevity, Lebron wins.
For team success, Jordan wins.

Lebron is certainly the closest ever to Jordan, but to say he's better, when he hasn't done anything better, is asinine.

[Jeff Van Gully]

i understand those who say lebron. i won't argue. dude's made an incredible case. no one's been to 8 straight finals since the 60s celtics, right?

and i know we always call michael the GOAT, but i always thought that might have been too hasty. i do agree, but then why not magic? bill russell has like 11 chips, right? and dude did things statistically that were not even counted yet. wilt chamberlain?

i always thought it was so tough to call a GOAT, especially across eras. michael and lebron both deserve to be in the conversation. but doesn't kobe? magic? russell? this conversation has always made me a little uneasy. jordan GOAT always felt a little prisoner of the moment to me.

[Jeff Van Gully]

No, he was the 2016 Warriors. He was the big bad monster, not the guy that needed the game of his life and got lucky to beat him.

Overcoming a great opponent doesn't make you better, otherwise Eli Manning has to be rated much higher for overcoming the 2007 Pats. Buster Douglas isn't a greater boxer than Floyd Mayweather for overcoming the odds to beat Mike Tyson, while Floyd has never been challenged in his pro career

that's a dumb argument

mj had the better team, therefore he's better than lebron?

so does that mean that since kd is the best player on the warriors, who are the big bad monster team, that we should be talking about him as goat?

like i said before. there's good arguments for both, and dumb arguments for both. especially cause basketball is a team sport, and boxing isn't. and eli is rated much higher than he should be cause his team beat the 07 patriots

No, Michael Jordan also has better stats, at least on a per game basis. The only thing Lebron has over Jordan is longevity.

For peak play, Jordan wins.
For longevity, Lebron wins.
For team success, Jordan wins.

Lebron is certainly the closest ever to Jordan, but to say he's better, when he hasn't done anything better, is asinine.

lebron has facilitated better. his impact on the game is similar to jordan's as a scorer, but leaps and bounds better as the straw that stirs the drink.

this is coming from someone who still sees jordan ahead of lebron on the GOAT list.

i always thought the jordan/lebron comparison was off. lebron reminds me WAY more of super saiyan magic johnson.

[DOT]

No, he was the 2016 Warriors. He was the big bad monster, not the guy that needed the game of his life and got lucky to beat him.

Overcoming a great opponent doesn't make you better, otherwise Eli Manning has to be rated much higher for overcoming the 2007 Pats. Buster Douglas isn't a greater boxer than Floyd Mayweather for overcoming the odds to beat Mike Tyson, while Floyd has never been challenged in his pro career

that's a dumb argument

mj had the better team, therefore he's better than lebron?

so does that mean that since kd is the best player on the warriors, who are the big bad monster team, that we should be talking about him as goat?

like i said before. there's good arguments for both, and dumb arguments for both. especially cause basketball is a team sport, and boxing isn't. and eli is rated much higher than he should be cause his team beat the 07 patriots

No, Michael Jordan also has better stats, at least on a per game basis. The only thing Lebron has over Jordan is longevity.

For peak play, Jordan wins.
For longevity, Lebron wins.
For team success, Jordan wins.

Lebron is certainly the closest ever to Jordan, but to say he's better, when he hasn't done anything better, is asinine.

never said lebron is better. i think it's a dumb conversation cause the sport is so different now, and both mj and lebron are products of their times

but it's also asinine to say that in a team sport, overcoming a stronger opponent makes your legacy worse than being on a stronger team in the first place

[Jeff Van Gully]

i agree that jordan had an underratedly good cast of characters and ALL-TIME level coaching. lebron has never had a pippen in cleveland. he used to have kyrie and kevin love. now just love. lebron def had a better supporting cast than MJ in miami tho. that's 3 HOFers. cleveland has been another story.

[DOT]

i understand those who say lebron. i won't argue. dude's made an incredible case. no one's been to 8 straight finals since the 60s celtics, right?

and i know we always call michael the GOAT, but i always thought that might have been too hasty. i do agree, but then why not magic? bill russell has like 11 chips, right? and dude did things statistically that were not even counted yet. wilt chamberlain?

i always thought it was so tough to call a GOAT, especially across eras. michael and lebron both deserve to be in the conversation. but doesn't kobe? magic? russell? this conversation has always made me a little uneasy. jordan GOAT always felt a little prisoner of the moment to me.

i say the three of kareem, mj, and lebron are the goats

i can't put magic in there cause he retired prematurely, and russell and wilt i feel like should be in the conversation, but it's just really hard to put their cases in perspective cause of how different the pre-70s nba was. kobe isn't even close

[El Poochio]

LeBron's Golden State title worth like 10 titles anyway

[Billy Goat]

i understand those who say lebron. i won't argue. dude's made an incredible case. no one's been to 8 straight finals since the 60s celtics, right?

and i know we always call michael the GOAT, but i always thought that might have been too hasty. i do agree, but then why not magic? bill russell has like 11 chips, right? and dude did things statistically that were not even counted yet. wilt chamberlain?

i always thought it was so tough to call a GOAT, especially across eras. michael and lebron both deserve to be in the conversation. but doesn't kobe? magic? russell? this conversation has always made me a little uneasy. jordan GOAT always felt a little prisoner of the moment to me.

As far as MJ being the GOAT

- he's clearly the best SG ever and it's not even close
- some recency bias
- the best marketed athlete of all time along with having the most popular sneaker of all time

But youre right- legit cases could be made for other players especially Magic and now Lebron. Nike helped MJ's legacy a lot.

[Spree2Houston]

It's Bron. Jordan got his father killed over gambling debts.

[Jeff Van Gully]

i understand those who say lebron. i won't argue. dude's made an incredible case. no one's been to 8 straight finals since the 60s celtics, right?

and i know we always call michael the GOAT, but i always thought that might have been too hasty. i do agree, but then why not magic? bill russell has like 11 chips, right? and dude did things statistically that were not even counted yet. wilt chamberlain?

i always thought it was so tough to call a GOAT, especially across eras. michael and lebron both deserve to be in the conversation. but doesn't kobe? magic? russell? this conversation has always made me a little uneasy. jordan GOAT always felt a little prisoner of the moment to me.

As far as MJ being the GOAT

- he's clearly the best SG ever and it's not even close
- some recency bias
- the best marketed athlete of all time along with having the most popular sneaker of all time

But youre right- legit cases could be made for other players especially Magic and now Lebron. Nike helped MJ's legacy a lot.

100% agree about the best SG ever. not even close? kobe didn't come close?

easily the best marketed athlete of all time, which helps. but i take nothing away from what jordan did. his exploits made him marketable. it's still herculean what he did when you think about it. lebron is competing against better athletes and in the swingman ERA. jordan played during a big man era with "jordan rules" in place pretty much everywhere he turned in the eastern conference. detroit kicked his ass. then the knicks bloodied him every year. cavs played him tough. pacers played him tough. orlando... it's truly amazing.