Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans

[Fat]

We ain’t getting none of these guys

[NY 567]

gotta cap it at like $20m starting salary. can't give this man $30m+.

The Raptors will match 20m. We're either not going to get him or we're going to comically overpay to get him like we did with Hardaway Jr

i didn't want to invoke the name of THJ. but at least in FVV, the player is worthy. in THJ we were hoping he might be at some point. ironically, dallas is getting the best of him at the end of the deal.

i agree that i expect them to match $20m. i'm also not sure he is going to accept that dollar amount from anyone. wouldn't be shocked if someone started him north of $25m.

Fred isn't worth more than 15 imo. He's good on offense but he's nowhere near as dynamic as other guards. He's a good defender and tries on defense, but he's very undersized. He works on the Raptors as the 3rd best guy on an obscenely deep team, but what does he do for us? Pass.

[br7knicks]

per shams

Toronto Raptors

Raptors championship guard Fred VanVleet is on fire to start the NBA’s Bubble Playoffs: 21.3 points, 7.8 assists and four rebounds per game in the Raptors‘ series sweep over Brooklyn.

VanVleet is a shoe free agent and has multiple suitors for a new deal, sources say. And on the court, expect a strong market for the free-agent-to-be: Detroit, New York and Phoenix are expected to emerge as suitors for VanVleet outside Toronto, sources said.

For the semi old timers:

a road traveled far too often

[Capn'O]

How are they able to announce this already?

[Capn'O]

Harris seems the most attainable. Jersey is running up their salary number. They'll be hard pressed to break the bank and if they do it sets them back. Win win.

[Knick4Real]

How are they able to announce this already?

Nothing was "announced" -- at least not from a team.

The article said the KNICKS, Pistons, and Suns are "Expected" to pursue FVV. That one word suggests it's only the writer's assumption which avoids tampering.

[spree8]

$20M in a dipped cap year is pretty fair, and should be tradeable when the cap goes back up.

I think that's his number. TO probably matches it, so this is all moot, but if the Knicks can get him at that price, he's worth it.

It’s fair, but it’s too rich for us imo. Rather build the rest of the team up first before committing 1/5th of the cap to FVV, who really isn’t going to be a big difference maker for us. We need to save money for the star players, if we ever get lucky enough to really be in the mix for one.

$20m is significantly closer to 1/6 of a $115m cap than 1/5.

Factoring in the cap being lowered... dunno how much that’ll be.

[Kampuchea]

Harris seems the most attainable. Jersey is running up their salary number. They'll be hard pressed to break the bank and if they do it sets them back. Win win.

We should do a short term poison pill deal. Overpay Harris a couple years instead of long term on FVV

[god shammgod]

We ain’t getting none of these guys

good

[Nazrmohamed]

FVV / Vassell / RJ / Stretch 4 / Mitch is not a bad lineup. That would be a much improved team and the spacing for RJ would be light years better than last year

I dont know anymore that a pure stretch 4 is what we need anymore. And don't get me wrong, we do need a 4 with range but I just mean, well for instance a few weeks back before Thibs I was all over guys like Tyler Bay and Reed out of DePaul as my prototypical stretch 4s. Guys who play PF and can cover the 3 or maybe a Patrick Williams type even. You know combo forwards.
Well now I'm thinking out loud that some guys I previously wrote off as too traditional could have more value under Thibs than under a coach like Atkinson who for sure is about pace and space. So long as they can defend thier position and also space the floor Im fine. So a guy Ive most recently put back on my radar is Jalen Smith. Now you might say nazr, he is a stretch 4 cause he can shoot the 3. But hes not like your Shawn Marrion stretch like Tyler Bay is, hes more like a traditional 4/5 who has range, as opposed to a 4/3.

I hope that made sense.

[8516knicks]

Isn't it worth giving the young players like Mitch and RJ and #8, 27 and 38, etc. a half-way decent point guard to grow their games with. Even if it makes us a 30-50 team instead of 20-60, we'll still ALWAYS be picking #8 at BEST, so ?--

[spree8]

Rather just trade for Cp3 than sign FVV. Contract is only 2 years, and he could help our young guys a lot more.

I’m open to Harris for a bloated 1+1 deal too.

Draft Obi...


Cp3 | DSJr
Joe Harris | Frank
RJ | Dotson | Iggy
Obi1| Knox
Mitch | Wooten

[dakomish23]

First, I don't think fair or wise to analyze how the player went to the league and how he performed in the draft to evaluate them now. We all know they are good players. It's not easy to find and develop good second-rounders or undrafted players. We should try to sign them into reasonable deals.

Second, I think we need to try to find and develop these players. To do that, we need less mid-contract players like Wellignton, Taj, and Portis in the roster. They will take roster ans rotation spots and keep us from test SRP/undrafted/redrafted players. But, as we know we will spend all the cap space, we need some expensive players in the roster to reduce the number of rotation spot guaranteed players in the team.

It's not really mid-contract players that are bad. If they were worth their salary, it'd be fine. Marcus Morris was worth it and we moved him for a pick. Randle, Payton, Portis, Ellington...no good. If they were measuring up to their salary, we'd actually have a good team.

The majority of mid salary players are average players. Morris was an exception.

The problem is we cant develop rookies, sophomore, redrafted, and undrafted players if we have too many mid salary players.

I’d rather take some second draft chances and see what a kid has and be disappointed than to get these useless vets who we know are basic rotation guys.

I thought we were trying to do that with Trier. Nope.

[Richard4444]

It's not really mid-contract players that are bad. If they were worth their salary, it'd be fine. Marcus Morris was worth it and we moved him for a pick. Randle, Payton, Portis, Ellington...no good. If they were measuring up to their salary, we'd actually have a good team.

The majority of mid salary players are average players. Morris was an exception.

The problem is we cant develop rookies, sophomore, redrafted, and undrafted players if we have too many mid salary players.

I’d rather take some second draft chances and see what a kid has and be disappointed than to get these useless vets who we know are basic rotation guys.

I thought we were trying to do that with Trier. Nope.

I think we tried it and give up on him. He is not very much of a team player to be a PG and is small to be a shooter wing or a great driver.

[NoLayupRule]

We're going to likely have to throw the max or something close to it to get FVV. This is going to be a disaster.

gotta cap it at like $20m starting salary. can't give this man $30m+.

The Raptors will match 20m. We're either not going to get him or we're going to comically overpay to get him like we did with Hardaway Jr

I hope those days are over

I don't see how he's worth 20 anyway but yeah to those above numbers

[Jeff Van Gully]

gotta cap it at like $20m starting salary. can't give this man $30m+.

The Raptors will match 20m. We're either not going to get him or we're going to comically overpay to get him like we did with Hardaway Jr

I hope those days are over

I don't see how he's worth 20 anyway but yeah to those above numbers

he's getting AT LEAST that, even if he stays with the raptors. i can't imagine offers starting at less.

[Jeffrey]

Going to say no on FVV.

I would like to go after Joe Harris and Bertans/Gallinari. Have shooters around RJ who can drive and kickout.

I don't understand this rational, it's much harder to find a quality PG on the open market than it is a shooter. I'd much rather pay the premium for Fred, as he's one of the best two way PGs in the league that can also play off the ball as opposed to someone who is just a shooter. You can find Joe Harris players and develop them as long as you're patient, the Heat have done it with Duncan Robinson, the Raptors are going to do it with Matt Thomas and Terrance Davis. They are always out there, just look for a great college shooter whose athleticism is questioned but has good size, develop his body so he can at the very least guard without being a liability.


The Rockets have turned random guys into high volume three point shooters on good percentages like Danuel House and Ben McLemore. I would never want to pay for someone like Harris if he wasn't already on my team, Bertans is a better option since he's unique for his size and position, but putting money into Harris is just crazy to me, especially when it's about him or FVV.

So, I'm going to backtrack what I said.

I'm good with FVV getting close to max money. I wasn't sure of his defense but it is solid and stats don't lie as well.

I still want Joe Harris in the picture.

FVV
RJ
Joe Harris
<shrugs> Melo?!
Mitch

[Esq-4]

Going to say no on FVV.

I would like to go after Joe Harris and Bertans/Gallinari. Have shooters around RJ who can drive and kickout.

I don't understand this rational, it's much harder to find a quality PG on the open market than it is a shooter. I'd much rather pay the premium for Fred, as he's one of the best two way PGs in the league that can also play off the ball as opposed to someone who is just a shooter. You can find Joe Harris players and develop them as long as you're patient, the Heat have done it with Duncan Robinson, the Raptors are going to do it with Matt Thomas and Terrance Davis. They are always out there, just look for a great college shooter whose athleticism is questioned but has good size, develop his body so he can at the very least guard without being a liability.


The Rockets have turned random guys into high volume three point shooters on good percentages like Danuel House and Ben McLemore. I would never want to pay for someone like Harris if he wasn't already on my team, Bertans is a better option since he's unique for his size and position, but putting money into Harris is just crazy to me, especially when it's about him or FVV.

So, I'm going to backtrack what I said.

I'm good with FVV getting close to max money. I wasn't sure of his defense but it is solid and stats don't lie as well.

I still want Joe Harris in the picture.

FVV
RJ
Joe Harris
<shrugs> Melo?!
Mitch

Is there money to get both Harris and FVV?

[Esq-4]

Rather just trade for Cp3 than sign FVV. Contract is only 2 years, and he could help our young guys a lot more.

I’m open to Harris for a bloated 1+1 deal too.

Draft Obi...


Cp3 | DSJr
Joe Harris | Frank
RJ | Dotson | Iggy
Obi1| Knox
Mitch | Wooten

I'm kinda with you. Bring in CP3 (although I'm admittedly torn on FVV). I like Obi as the pick if he's on the board.

[Nazrmohamed]

Rather just trade for Cp3 than sign FVV. Contract is only 2 years, and he could help our young guys a lot more.

I’m open to Harris for a bloated 1+1 deal too.

Draft Obi...


Cp3 | DSJr
Joe Harris | Frank
RJ | Dotson | Iggy
Obi1| Knox
Mitch | Wooten

Me too the way you put it if Obi fell to us. As you said its 2 yrs. Hopefully by the end so.ething brushed off on these guys. If not then they have no hope.