Russia-Ukraine War Part 2

[8516knicks]

Now this guy has nukes?

Watch on YouTube

[HopelessKnick]

Lolz. HopelessKnick post aged well.

What are you talking about? Prigozhin and Shoigu have been beefing for months. Prigozhin has been insulting Shoigu hard core---calling him a traitor and disgrace on numerous occasions. It is clear there is some serious fracture between them. Note Prigozhin, in multiple rants has NEVER, not a single time, called out Putin....it is always Shoigu and the russian defense ministry he calls out. Everything that happened yesterday was about money and power or control. The russian defense ministry wants to swallow Wagner and Prigozhin obviously is trying everything to keep it from happening. He saved his own life. Wagner without the russian government/military is like a car without an engine or fuel. They were on a suicide mission and called it off.

My whole entire point stands: The only way for Russia to lose this conflict is through some internal problem. No matter what the US or NATO does is not gonna change the outcome of this war. I won't even bother specifically about the UK as they have become literally the butt joke of everything. They only run their mouth because they have the US standing behind them....they couldn't even withstand the russian military for a week (and that's per their own admission). This whole enterprise of preventing peace last year in Istanbul and urging Ukraine to fight on has turned into a complete disaster. Ukraine has lost many hundred thousand of soldiers, lost many regions, NATO and western arm stock are depleted and the big counter offensive has yielded almost no result. The only thing that can save the day is literally a miracle like a russian civil war etc.----other than that US and NATO have thrown in all they had and it didn't make much of a dent.

You mean the giant country has an advantage over the small country it invaded? Who knew?

Well I agree but you should ask Boris Johnson and Biden, who intervened and urged Zelenski to NOT sign the peace agreement last year in Istanbul but rather to fight on. In Germany it was said that Russia is a gas station masquerading as an economy and that the western sanctions would ruin Russia within 6 months. It was said the russian military is completely incompetent and that NATO-trained Ukraine would sweep them out of their territories in no time. Didn't Hodges and Patreus say just a couple days or weeks ago that the US has equipped and enabled Ukraine well enough to take back crimea by August this year? After all the sanctions, weapon deliveries, US terrorist attack on Nordstream 2 etc. etc. we are sitting here hoping for some internal conflict in Russia to change the situation. But what to expect when you have people like Johnson and Biden leading countries....

[thebuzzardman]

What are you talking about? Prigozhin and Shoigu have been beefing for months. Prigozhin has been insulting Shoigu hard core---calling him a traitor and disgrace on numerous occasions. It is clear there is some serious fracture between them. Note Prigozhin, in multiple rants has NEVER, not a single time, called out Putin....it is always Shoigu and the russian defense ministry he calls out. Everything that happened yesterday was about money and power or control. The russian defense ministry wants to swallow Wagner and Prigozhin obviously is trying everything to keep it from happening. He saved his own life. Wagner without the russian government/military is like a car without an engine or fuel. They were on a suicide mission and called it off.

My whole entire point stands: The only way for Russia to lose this conflict is through some internal problem. No matter what the US or NATO does is not gonna change the outcome of this war. I won't even bother specifically about the UK as they have become literally the butt joke of everything. They only run their mouth because they have the US standing behind them....they couldn't even withstand the russian military for a week (and that's per their own admission). This whole enterprise of preventing peace last year in Istanbul and urging Ukraine to fight on has turned into a complete disaster. Ukraine has lost many hundred thousand of soldiers, lost many regions, NATO and western arm stock are depleted and the big counter offensive has yielded almost no result. The only thing that can save the day is literally a miracle like a russian civil war etc.----other than that US and NATO have thrown in all they had and it didn't make much of a dent.

You mean the giant country has an advantage over the small country it invaded? Who knew?

Well I agree but you should ask Boris Johnson and Biden, who intervened and urged Zelenski to NOT sign the peace agreement last year in Istanbul but rather to fight on. In Germany it was said that Russia is a gas station masquerading as an economy and that the western sanctions would ruin Russia within 6 months. It was said the russian military is completely incompetent and that NATO-trained Ukraine would sweep them out of their territories in no time. Didn't Hodges and Patreus say just a couple days or weeks ago that the US has equipped and enabled Ukraine well enough to take back crimea by August this year? After all the sanctions, weapon deliveries, US terrorist attack on Nordstream 2 etc. etc. we are sitting here hoping for some internal conflict in Russia to change the situation. But what to expect when you have people like Johnson and Biden leading countries....

Well, the "peace agreement" would have been ceding 1/3 of their territory, so maybe that had something to do with it.

Regardless of what others were suggesting, I doubt the Ukrainians were that motivated to sign it IF they felt they had economic and military aid. Sure they'd lose on their own. That's the way it is in some conflicts.

It's all a shame, all the way around

[HopelessKnick]

You mean the giant country has an advantage over the small country it invaded? Who knew?

Well I agree but you should ask Boris Johnson and Biden, who intervened and urged Zelenski to NOT sign the peace agreement last year in Istanbul but rather to fight on. In Germany it was said that Russia is a gas station masquerading as an economy and that the western sanctions would ruin Russia within 6 months. It was said the russian military is completely incompetent and that NATO-trained Ukraine would sweep them out of their territories in no time. Didn't Hodges and Patreus say just a couple days or weeks ago that the US has equipped and enabled Ukraine well enough to take back crimea by August this year? After all the sanctions, weapon deliveries, US terrorist attack on Nordstream 2 etc. etc. we are sitting here hoping for some internal conflict in Russia to change the situation. But what to expect when you have people like Johnson and Biden leading countries....

Well, the "peace agreement" would have been ceding 1/3 of their territory, so maybe that had something to do with it.

Regardless of what others were suggesting, I doubt the Ukrainians were that motivated to sign it IF they felt they had economic and military aid. Sure they'd lose on their own. That's the way it is in some conflicts.

It's all a shame, all the way around

I won't pretend like I know what was exactly in that peace agreement but there are reasons to believe that it was not ceding 1/3 of their territory. From everything I read it was ceding crimea in some kind of lease agreement where Ukraine would get some sort of constant money flow from Russia. Additionally it was said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO but get security guarantees from a handful of countries including the UK (who refused and wanted the war to go on) and then the status of the donbas. It is suggested that the given security guarantees did not include the donbas so that the status of the donbas would have been under question (and possibly under russian control). Keep in mind the whole southern regions that Ukraine is now trying to regain, would have remained completely under ukrainian control.

The reasons why I believe Ukraine did indeed want to sign it:

1. Russia , as a good will gesture promised to withdraw from Kiev---which they did (the western media narrative was that russian troops there just collapsed but if you recall the events at that time, there was no sign of any sudden collapse. The ukrainians fought bravely and defended every inch there, but yet couldn't expel the russians.

2. Naftali Bennet, back then israels prime minister (who was anti-russian and pro-ukraine) confirmed a couple months back that an agreement had indeed been reached in Istanbul but after UK/US intervention Ukraine pulled out and called off any negotiations. A couple days after these public remarks he had to backtrack some of his prevous comments (I wonder why).

3. The turkish minister back then, hosting the negotiations, said negotiations on an agreement were almost completed.

The common western media narrative was that Ukraine called off negotiations because of Bucha---which IMO never made sense. If you are at war with a neighboring country that has much more resources than you yourself, has a whole military industry that can produce non-stop, is likely going to be backed by China and is commiting war crimes already.....why in the world would you want to drag on that war? Wouldn't the most sensible thing be to put that fire out and end it as soon as possible?

[DOT]

I didn't realize Neville Chamberlain posted on this board

[thebuzzardman]

Well I agree but you should ask Boris Johnson and Biden, who intervened and urged Zelenski to NOT sign the peace agreement last year in Istanbul but rather to fight on. In Germany it was said that Russia is a gas station masquerading as an economy and that the western sanctions would ruin Russia within 6 months. It was said the russian military is completely incompetent and that NATO-trained Ukraine would sweep them out of their territories in no time. Didn't Hodges and Patreus say just a couple days or weeks ago that the US has equipped and enabled Ukraine well enough to take back crimea by August this year? After all the sanctions, weapon deliveries, US terrorist attack on Nordstream 2 etc. etc. we are sitting here hoping for some internal conflict in Russia to change the situation. But what to expect when you have people like Johnson and Biden leading countries....

Well, the "peace agreement" would have been ceding 1/3 of their territory, so maybe that had something to do with it.

Regardless of what others were suggesting, I doubt the Ukrainians were that motivated to sign it IF they felt they had economic and military aid. Sure they'd lose on their own. That's the way it is in some conflicts.

It's all a shame, all the way around

I won't pretend like I know what was exactly in that peace agreement but there are reasons to believe that it was not ceding 1/3 of their territory. From everything I read it was ceding crimea in some kind of lease agreement where Ukraine would get some sort of constant money flow from Russia. Additionally it was said Ukraine wouldn't join NATO but get security guarantees from a handful of countries including the UK (who refused and wanted the war to go on) and then the status of the donbas. It is suggested that the given security guarantees did not include the donbas so that the status of the donbas would have been under question (and possibly under russian control). Keep in mind the whole southern regions that Ukraine is now trying to regain, would have remained completely under ukrainian control.

The reasons why I believe Ukraine did indeed want to sign it:

1. Russia , as a good will gesture promised to withdraw from Kiev---which they did (the western media narrative was that russian troops there just collapsed but if you recall the events at that time, there was no sign of any sudden collapse. The ukrainians fought bravely and defended every inch there, but yet couldn't expel the russians.

2. Naftali Bennet, back then israels prime minister (who was anti-russian and pro-ukraine) confirmed a couple months back that an agreement had indeed been reached in Istanbul but after UK/US intervention Ukraine pulled out and called off any negotiations. A couple days after these public remarks he had to backtrack some of his prevous comments (I wonder why).

3. The turkish minister back then, hosting the negotiations, said negotiations on an agreement were almost completed.

The common western media narrative was that Ukraine called off negotiations because of Bucha---which IMO never made sense. If you are at war with a neighboring country that has much more resources than you yourself, has a whole military industry that can produce non-stop, is likely going to be backed by China and is commiting war crimes already.....why in the world would you want to drag on that war? Wouldn't the most sensible thing be to put that fire out and end it as soon as possible?

Crimea very important to Russia militarily, stragetically, very important to Ukraine to maintain their coast and be able to trade.

Very important to both for the f*ck ton of natural gas rights in the black sea.

[thebuzzardman]

I didn't realize Neville Chamberlain posted on this board

Strongmen are well known to be very reasonable around concessions!

[HopelessKnick]

The Russian army went from the 2nd strongest in the world to the 2nd strongest in Russia.

It's exactly comments like this that mainly just discredit the author. In reality, Wagner on its own has very little power. Even to think that they could take on the russian military just reveals that there is ZERO knowledge of these things in this comment. A force of a couple hundreds, maybe thousands of men, armed with a handful of tanks and armored fighting vehicles with no air cover, against an army of hundred of thousands of men with an entire airforce, hundreds if not thousands of tanks as well as thousands of infantery fighting vehicles. Had Prigozhin not accepted whatever Lukashenko offered him, he would have led his men into suicide. Where do you think Wagner is getting their ammunition from?

Prigozhin wanted to keep Wagner under his control, the russian MoD wanted to incorporate Wagner into its own forces. Prigozhin tried a little power play and lost obviously.

[DOT]

The Russian army went from the 2nd strongest in the world to the 2nd strongest in Russia.

It's exactly comments like this that mainly just discredit the author. In reality, Wagner on its own has very little power. Even to think that they could take on the russian military just reveals that there is ZERO knowledge of these things in this comment. A force of a couple hundreds, maybe thousands of men, armed with a handful of tanks and armored fighting vehicles with no air cover, against an army of hundred of thousands of men with an entire airforce, hundreds if not thousands of tanks as well as thousands of infantery fighting vehicles. Had Prigozhin not accepted whatever Lukashenko offered him, he would have led his men into suicide. Where do you think Wagner is getting their ammunition from?

Prigozhin wanted to keep Wagner under his control, the russian MoD wanted to incorporate Wagner into its own forces. Prigozhin tried a little power play and lost obviously.

Someone's a little sensitive, eh Comrade?

[HopelessKnick]

2019 Rand corporation---discussing how to destroy Russia. This is an american think tank....openly discussing how to destroy another country....and you wonder why the US, in its 250 years of existence, has been involved in wars almost ceaselessly.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR3000/RR3063/RAND_RR3063.pdf

geopolitical measures

Chapter ---"Provide lethal aid to Ukraine" --> in summary: in order to kill as many russians as possible

And the rest of the playbook: regime change in Belarus, stir up stuff in moldova, increase tensions in the caucasus etc.

It is what it is: the U.S. misusing Ukraine as a proxy in an attempt to weaken the russian military, sacrificing hundred of thousands of ukrainians in the process with no regards for human life.

[HopelessKnick]

The Russian army went from the 2nd strongest in the world to the 2nd strongest in Russia.

It's exactly comments like this that mainly just discredit the author. In reality, Wagner on its own has very little power. Even to think that they could take on the russian military just reveals that there is ZERO knowledge of these things in this comment. A force of a couple hundreds, maybe thousands of men, armed with a handful of tanks and armored fighting vehicles with no air cover, against an army of hundred of thousands of men with an entire airforce, hundreds if not thousands of tanks as well as thousands of infantery fighting vehicles. Had Prigozhin not accepted whatever Lukashenko offered him, he would have led his men into suicide. Where do you think Wagner is getting their ammunition from?

Prigozhin wanted to keep Wagner under his control, the russian MoD wanted to incorporate Wagner into its own forces. Prigozhin tried a little power play and lost obviously.

Someone's a little sensitive, eh Comrade?

Maybe sitting in europe, where living costs and energy costs have exploded while another country nearby is getting destroyed makes it less fun and interesting than sitting across a vast ocean where you can now sell your highly environmentally damaging LNG gas at 5 times the price....Germany in a recession while the russian experience economic growth...yeah makes people a little sensitive..on top of it the right win AFD on the rise as people are fed up with german politicians acting as extensions of U.S. interest instead of german interests....not fun at all...

[DOT]

It's exactly comments like this that mainly just discredit the author. In reality, Wagner on its own has very little power. Even to think that they could take on the russian military just reveals that there is ZERO knowledge of these things in this comment. A force of a couple hundreds, maybe thousands of men, armed with a handful of tanks and armored fighting vehicles with no air cover, against an army of hundred of thousands of men with an entire airforce, hundreds if not thousands of tanks as well as thousands of infantery fighting vehicles. Had Prigozhin not accepted whatever Lukashenko offered him, he would have led his men into suicide. Where do you think Wagner is getting their ammunition from?

Prigozhin wanted to keep Wagner under his control, the russian MoD wanted to incorporate Wagner into its own forces. Prigozhin tried a little power play and lost obviously.

Someone's a little sensitive, eh Comrade?

Maybe sitting in europe, where living costs and energy costs have exploded while another country nearby is getting destroyed makes it less fun and interesting than sitting across a vast ocean where you can now sell your highly environmentally damaging LNG gas at 5 times the price....Germany in a recession while the russian experience economic growth...yeah makes people a little sensitive..on top of it the right win AFD on the rise as people are fed up with german politicians acting as extensions of U.S. interest instead of german interests....not fun at all...

lol maybe you should be mad at Russia for starting this war then?

They could end it at any moment by pulling out of Ukraine, but they're the ones keeping it going

It's just hilarious to me the lengths you're going to to make it literally anyone else's fault when Russia's the one invading another country here

Maybe you should turn off the Russian state media, comrade.

[HopelessKnick]

Someone's a little sensitive, eh Comrade?

Maybe sitting in europe, where living costs and energy costs have exploded while another country nearby is getting destroyed makes it less fun and interesting than sitting across a vast ocean where you can now sell your highly environmentally damaging LNG gas at 5 times the price....Germany in a recession while the russian experience economic growth...yeah makes people a little sensitive..on top of it the right win AFD on the rise as people are fed up with german politicians acting as extensions of U.S. interest instead of german interests....not fun at all...

lol maybe you should be mad at Russia for starting this war then?

They could end it at any moment by pulling out of Ukraine, but they're the ones keeping it going

It's just hilarious to me the lengths you're going to to make it literally anyone else's fault when Russia's the one invading another country here

Maybe you should turn off the Russian state media, comrade.

Well isn't CNN saying the russians are evil by nature dude? Aren't the russians the evil empire? So we can't expect them to pull out right? Shouldn't the rational, free , democratic nations do their part for a settlement instead of keep pushing wars and preventing peace settlements like the US did last year in Ukraine?

Maybe you should turn of U.S. state media, dude.

[Clyde_Style]

Lolz. HopelessKnick post aged well.

What are you talking about? Prigozhin and Shoigu have been beefing for months. Prigozhin has been insulting Shoigu hard core---calling him a traitor and disgrace on numerous occasions. It is clear there is some serious fracture between them. Note Prigozhin, in multiple rants has NEVER, not a single time, called out Putin....it is always Shoigu and the russian defense ministry he calls out. Everything that happened yesterday was about money and power or control. The russian defense ministry wants to swallow Wagner and Prigozhin obviously is trying everything to keep it from happening. He saved his own life. Wagner without the russian government/military is like a car without an engine or fuel. They were on a suicide mission and called it off.

My whole entire point stands: The only way for Russia to lose this conflict is through some internal problem. No matter what the US or NATO does is not gonna change the outcome of this war. I won't even bother specifically about the UK as they have become literally the butt joke of everything. They only run their mouth because they have the US standing behind them....they couldn't even withstand the russian military for a week (and that's per their own admission). This whole enterprise of preventing peace last year in Istanbul and urging Ukraine to fight on has turned into a complete disaster. Ukraine has lost many hundred thousand of soldiers, lost many regions, NATO and western arm stock are depleted and the big counter offensive has yielded almost no result. The only thing that can save the day is literally a miracle like a russian civil war etc.----other than that US and NATO have thrown in all they had and it didn't make much of a dent.

You mean the giant country has an advantage over the small country it invaded? Who knew?

IOW, to avoid bloodshed Ukraine should have surrendered their country to the stewardship of Vladimir Putin. Makes sense now!

[Clyde_Style]

I didn't realize Neville Chamberlain posted on this board

Strongmen are well known to be very reasonable around concessions!

And don't forget the gravitas of their goodwill gestures like withdrawing from a city they just invaded.

It's a shame when good manners go unrecognized.

[DOT]

Shouldn't the rational, free , democratic nations do their part for a settlement

Okay Neville lol

[Clyde_Style]

Maybe sitting in europe, where living costs and energy costs have exploded while another country nearby is getting destroyed makes it less fun and interesting than sitting across a vast ocean where you can now sell your highly environmentally damaging LNG gas at 5 times the price....Germany in a recession while the russian experience economic growth...yeah makes people a little sensitive..on top of it the right win AFD on the rise as people are fed up with german politicians acting as extensions of U.S. interest instead of german interests....not fun at all...

lol maybe you should be mad at Russia for starting this war then?

They could end it at any moment by pulling out of Ukraine, but they're the ones keeping it going

It's just hilarious to me the lengths you're going to to make it literally anyone else's fault when Russia's the one invading another country here

Maybe you should turn off the Russian state media, comrade.

Well isn't CNN saying the russians are evil by nature dude? Aren't the russians the evil empire? So we can't expect them to pull out right? Shouldn't the rational, free , democratic nations do their part for a settlement instead of keep pushing wars and preventing peace settlements like the US did last year in Ukraine?

Maybe you should turn of U.S. state media, dude.

Maybe you should take your Kremlinspeak to a website ending in .RU comrade

[HopelessKnick]

Shouldn't the rational, free , democratic nations do their part for a settlement

Okay Neville lol

No problem Bush LMAO

[HopelessKnick]

lol maybe you should be mad at Russia for starting this war then?

They could end it at any moment by pulling out of Ukraine, but they're the ones keeping it going

It's just hilarious to me the lengths you're going to to make it literally anyone else's fault when Russia's the one invading another country here

Maybe you should turn off the Russian state media, comrade.

Well isn't CNN saying the russians are evil by nature dude? Aren't the russians the evil empire? So we can't expect them to pull out right? Shouldn't the rational, free , democratic nations do their part for a settlement instead of keep pushing wars and preventing peace settlements like the US did last year in Ukraine?

Maybe you should turn of U.S. state media, dude.

Maybe you should take your Kremlinspeak to a website ending in .RU comrade

huh? politics does not seem to be your strongest suit so you may want to stick to knick talk...

[HopelessKnick]

But I'll just leave it at that. The readers of this thread will decide for themselves....the one side talking arguments and sending links...the other side obviously has ZERO knowledge of the situation, no knowledge of the political or military situation (outside CNN talking point LMAO ) trying to counter with literally nothing.....the argument speaks for itself.