Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[K_ick_God]

why does all-star matter? There's only 30 all stars every year, most of whom were top lottery picks. Not everyone can be an all-star. If you can get someone who can play 10-15 years in the NBA, what's wrong with that. Players barely play 10 years in the league now.

That's basically starfuqing. The same thing that plagued most fans in the Melo years.

Ariza's still in the league. And we spent nearly $30-40M trying to find someone who can do what he did. It's simple economics.

Because the term blossomed was used. If that's the case say Channing Frye blossomed.

David Lee made all-star under us, did he blossom?

idgaf about players who blossomed, I just care about players who ended up being serviceable for us.

Frye ended up having a damn good career after he left us. Stupid trade

Lee was good for us. He probably played some of his best seasons under us. We swapped him essentially for Amare. We didn't give up on him tho. Different circumstances.

Different circumstances yeah and that's the LeBron year, but still it's more or less the same thing -- we made a conscious decision to dump Lee for Amar'e. We made a conscious decision to dump Camby for McDyess.

These moves were terrible, and to me they do count as "giving up" on those guys.

[Thugger HBC]

Thugger, if a player was traded who was doing decently for the Knicks, but fell short of expectations -- like Frye or Camby or Ariza -- but we gave him up for nothing, then what's the difference whether he blossomed or just became a good player and we got poor return for him?

Same thing.

Camby didn't really blossom after the Knicks, nor did Lee, but both played a big role. Warriors probably don't win that first title without Lee. He came in and changed the series in Cleveland with a bench spurt. Amar'e a more prolific scorer. Both bad defenders. But Lee found a way to help a team win a title. That's worth a lot.

From the Knicks' POV, the swap was terrible.

I'll amend what I said to ... If Frank is traded, it's a good sign for him because the Knicks have a history of trading away a lot more than they get back. In Frank's case, I do think he'll blossom some to become a good NBA player. He's got a lot of components of a very useful and helpful piece.

KG that's not blossoming man. that's the term you chose to use, but cant defend it. A player contributing on a contender is not the definition of the term you used. Now you naming cats we didn't even draft Camby was in the league a couple of seasons prior to being a Knicks player. come on now.

Jax and Rod are certainly examples of guys who blossomed despite actually playing well for us. Very few if any could be cited after that and that's been 30 years ago.

Longevity has nothing to do with it. That like saying Kwame Brown aint a bust because he lasted over 10 years in the NBA. Nobody would claim he blossomed.

[K_ick_God]

DSJr seems more like the kind of guard Perry and Fiz value. Probably Mills as well.

Get er done Pills!

Trade Dotson too. Not enough wiggle in his game.

Yeah you've GOT to include Dotson in the deal because he looks to understand the game, play within himself, and doesn't fire away from all angles at will. He does show he can make tough shots but can he get a shot and a miss anywhere on the floor?

That's key lol.

Plus he plays D and understands team ball. And he is cheap. And he is making Timmy look bad. AND (exhales) he is shooting high percentages.

So yeah, Dotson is a throw-in.

Funny. Very funny. Very tragic.

[K_ick_God]

Thugger, if a player was traded who was doing decently for the Knicks, but fell short of expectations -- like Frye or Camby or Ariza -- but we gave him up for nothing, then what's the difference whether he blossomed or just became a good player and we got poor return for him?

Same thing.

Camby didn't really blossom after the Knicks, nor did Lee, but both played a big role. Warriors probably don't win that first title without Lee. He came in and changed the series in Cleveland with a bench spurt. Amar'e a more prolific scorer. Both bad defenders. But Lee found a way to help a team win a title. That's worth a lot.

From the Knicks' POV, the swap was terrible.

I'll amend what I said to ... If Frank is traded, it's a good sign for him because the Knicks have a history of trading away a lot more than they get back. In Frank's case, I do think he'll blossom some to become a good NBA player. He's got a lot of components of a very useful and helpful piece.

KG that's not blossoming man. that's the term you chose to use, but cant defend it. A player contributing on a contender is not the definition of the term you used. Now you naming cats we didn't even draft Camby was in the league a couple of seasons prior to being a Knicks player. come on now.

Jax and Rod are certainly examples of guys who blossomed despite actually playing well for us. Very few if any could be cited after that and that's been 30 years ago.

Longevity has nothing to do with it. That like saying Kwame Brown aint a bust because he lasted over 10 years in the NBA. Nobody would claim he blossomed.

Well I concede that blossom isn't the best word. Not that many Knicks blossomed a ton. But we have given up way too much in trades.

On Ariza, I do think he blossomed a lot -- he was nowhere with the Knicks and the reason he's had longevity is because he became a really solid piece. A very valuable role player -- helped the Lakers win a title as a major piece. Camby kind of just continued to be a major piece and outperformed McDyess a lot.

Both Ariza and Lee won titles and were not just on the roster a la Jud Buechler. They were key pieces. Lee less so but got a major spurt so that counts.

Kwame just stuck around because he was the top pick and had size. Not a great comparison.

[K_ick_God]

Doug Christie also blossomed as an ex-Knick.

And so did Mark Jackson. He was struggling big time in NY and then blossomed into a very long-term quality starter. 4th all time assist leader lol ... and we got Charles Freaking Smith.

[Thugger HBC]

Thugger, if a player was traded who was doing decently for the Knicks, but fell short of expectations -- like Frye or Camby or Ariza -- but we gave him up for nothing, then what's the difference whether he blossomed or just became a good player and we got poor return for him?

Same thing.

Camby didn't really blossom after the Knicks, nor did Lee, but both played a big role. Warriors probably don't win that first title without Lee. He came in and changed the series in Cleveland with a bench spurt. Amar'e a more prolific scorer. Both bad defenders. But Lee found a way to help a team win a title. That's worth a lot.

From the Knicks' POV, the swap was terrible.

I'll amend what I said to ... If Frank is traded, it's a good sign for him because the Knicks have a history of trading away a lot more than they get back. In Frank's case, I do think he'll blossom some to become a good NBA player. He's got a lot of components of a very useful and helpful piece.

KG that's not blossoming man. that's the term you chose to use, but cant defend it. A player contributing on a contender is not the definition of the term you used. Now you naming cats we didn't even draft Camby was in the league a couple of seasons prior to being a Knicks player. come on now.

Jax and Rod are certainly examples of guys who blossomed despite actually playing well for us. Very few if any could be cited after that and that's been 30 years ago.

Longevity has nothing to do with it. That like saying Kwame Brown aint a bust because he lasted over 10 years in the NBA. Nobody would claim he blossomed.

Well I concede that blossom isn't the best word. Not that many Knicks blossomed a ton. But we have given up way too much in trades.

On Ariza, I do think he blossomed a lot -- he was nowhere with the Knicks and the reason he's had longevity is because he became a really solid piece. A very valuable role player -- helped the Lakers win a title as a major piece. Camby kind of just continued to be a major piece and outperformed McDyess a lot.

Both Ariza and Lee won titles and were not just on the roster a la Jud Buechler. They were key pieces. Lee less so but got a major spurt so that counts.

You've already conceded the term, so I wont pursue that anymore.

Not if you're stating we've let good talent go for little tangible return, no debate there. I 100% agree. That list is rather endless.

[Thugger HBC]

Mark Jax won ROTY in NY. Let it go man...lol.

[K_ick_God]

Mark Jax won ROTY in NY. Let it go man...lol.

Yeah but then he hit the rocks and we gave up on him.

[Thugger HBC]

30 years ago.

[K_ick_God]

When I think of blossomed I think of a guy who at least was an all-star consideration. Not a journeyman. if you gotta go back to the 80's to establish history, you already lost.

That's cause we usually trade away our good players before we draft them

But sure, let's trade Frank away for nothing right now instead of just waiting to see if his value goes up at all over the next year. Great plan.

Frank is so bad that we have to use Dotson to dump him

[K_ick_God]

30 years ago.

Well we haven't done much during those 30 years to redeem ourselves. We pick the wrong horse a lot. It's an unbroken string of failure.

Let's hope we keep Frank and Dot and do our best to dump Timmy. This is a Litmus test.

[HEZI]

You could make a list for every NBA team of all the talent they gave up in their history. A bunch of teams let future All Stars and HOFs go out the door. We really still talking about Ariza though?

[K_ick_God]

You could make a list for every NBA team of all the talent they gave up in their history. A bunch of teams let future All Stars and HOFs go out the door. We really still talking about Ariza though?

The Knicks also chose Bill Bradley when they could have had Rick Barry instead.

The above is true. It was the original "Olajuwon over Jordan" draft.

[Thugger HBC]

You could make a list for every NBA team of all the talent they gave up in their history. A bunch of teams let future All Stars and HOFs go out the door. We really still talking about Ariza though?

This is what you have to hold on to when your history real is that his story.

[thebuzzardman]

DSJr seems more like the kind of guard Perry and Fiz value. Probably Mills as well.

Get er done Pills!

Trade Dotson too. Not enough wiggle in his game.

Yeah you've GOT to include Dotson in the deal because he looks to understand the game, play within himself, and doesn't fire away from all angles at will. He does show he can make tough shots but can he get a shot and a miss anywhere on the floor?

That's key lol.

Plus he plays D and understands team ball. And he is cheap. And he is making Timmy look bad. AND (exhales) he is shooting high percentages.

So yeah, Dotson is a throw-in.

Funny. Very funny. Very tragic.

Dotson doesn't fit the profile of the team. They got Zo for backup SG. Mario for backup SF. Trade Dot now, while they can.

[thebuzzardman]

You could make a list for every NBA team of all the talent they gave up in their history. A bunch of teams let future All Stars and HOFs go out the door. We really still talking about Ariza though?

The Knicks also chose Bill Bradley when they could have had Rick Barry instead.

The above is true. It was the original "Olajuwon over Jordan" draft.

Cool. The Knicks took a gentleman and a scholar over a dbag who produced a number of dbag progeny.

Solid move on their part.

[prophet_of_rage]

We had Mark Jackson as well.

Traded him too. Ariza. If you count the picks we have given up, though I admit that wasn't exactly what I was talking about -- Nuggets got a couple of good players. Bulls got Noah with a pick of ours.

I believe Utah used a pick of ours to take Kanter lol.

You cant count those, they don't fit this scenario. Perhaps my definition of blossomed is rather steep.

I've seen Gallo and Chandler play really well as Knicks, I don't think they've really played that much better elsewhere to make a claim that they blossomed.

I don't think Ariza blossomed into anything other than a serviceable player. Blossomed imo would be Orlando giving up on someone like Oladipo, and then OKC doing the exact same thing.

Nobody ever says if we only kept Ariza. We haven't been close enough in years for players like thatto matter.

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[seren]

I think Frank has the upside to revolutionize the point guard position. I put Frank's ceiling above Mudiay by a mile. I have no frigging idea why Perry and coaching staff are pushing for a proven loser in Mudiay. Mudiay is your next Jennings. Someone will pay him for a three year prove me contract and he will be gone out of the league by the time that contract ends. We have this fascination of other people's junk. Previously we paid Felton over Lin. Now Mudiay over Frank. Same story again and again.

[prophet_of_rage]

DSJr seems more like the kind of guard Perry and Fiz value. Probably Mills as well.

Get er done Pills!

Trade Dotson too. Not enough wiggle in his game.

There's a tasteless joke in here.

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[prophet_of_rage]

I think Frank has the upside to revolutionize the point guard position. I put Frank's ceiling above Mudiay by a mile. I have no frigging idea why Perry and coaching staff are pushing for a proven loser in Mudiay. Mudiay is your next Jennings. Someone will pay him for a three year prove me contract and he will be gone out of the league by the time that contract ends. We have this fascination of other people's junk. Previously we paid Felton over Lin. Now Mudiay over Frank. Same story again and again.

Revolutionise? How?

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