2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

[mpharris36]

what the knicks need is the best player not a specific trait. There are a blank canvas...there are 2 maybe 3 (in my eyes) players with long term futures here currently on the roster. So I wouldn't make any decision on what the knicks currently don't have because in a year the roster will look completely different.

[HEZI]

I think its a combination of both. Its a combination of what they did and what they can become by taking there skill set and trying to translate it to the NBA game. Its challenging because these guys are so young and we have very little worthwhile tape on most of these guys outside of the multi year college guys.

You have to do some projectability with prospects though. Othwise Grant Riller would be one of the first PG's off the board.

Or the fact that Derrick Rose only college year he scored 14pts 4.5 rebs and 4.5 assists. Which is nothing to stop you in your tracks. But there are other factors in play along with using there college/overseas production.

I agree with this, that's why context needs to be applied to all prospects and not just selective to the ones we like. That doesn't happen so here we are

I think most are being pretty fair with the prospects around here. Obviously everyone has there bias in what they like in prospects but for the most part.

Everyone has the right to there opinion thats why we have this message board but I do think your are being extra harsh on Lamelo and Hayes who are widely considered the two best PG's in the draft. While they do have there flaws most people who scout and do this for a living have them 1 and 2. Now you have every right to see it differently but there is a reason they have these guys 1 and 2.

You specifically have Cole and Haliburton above both. I would say you might be one of the few on that island which is cool but I think you need to understand where Deeeez is coming from he's really not arguing a different point then what 99% of the people are saying.

"two best PGs in the draft" is projection based and there is no proof in the pudding for it, that's my point. It's an opinion and there is no evidence to show it. It's just based on opinion. The stats don't back it up, the eye test doesn't back it up, it's opinion based.

[mpharris36]

I agree with this, that's why context needs to be applied to all prospects and not just selective to the ones we like. That doesn't happen so here we are

I think most are being pretty fair with the prospects around here. Obviously everyone has there bias in what they like in prospects but for the most part.

Everyone has the right to there opinion thats why we have this message board but I do think your are being extra harsh on Lamelo and Hayes who are widely considered the two best PG's in the draft. While they do have there flaws most people who scout and do this for a living have them 1 and 2. Now you have every right to see it differently but there is a reason they have these guys 1 and 2.

You specifically have Cole and Haliburton above both. I would say you might be one of the few on that island which is cool but I think you need to understand where Deeeez is coming from he's really not arguing a different point then what 99% of the people are saying.

"two best PGs in the draft" is projection based and there is no proof in the pudding for it, that's my point. It's an opinion and there is no evidence to show it. It's just based on opinion. The stats don't back it up, the eye test doesn't back it up, it's opinion based.

thats what the draft is though...

[HEZI]

what the knicks need is the best player not a specific trait. There are a blank canvas...there are 2 maybe 3 (in my eyes) players with long term futures here currently on the roster. So I wouldn't make any decision on what the knicks currently don't have because in a year the roster will look completely different.

Best player huh? So Haliburton over Lamelo it is then

You are now going to flip over to "projection" and "potential" aren't you?

I see BPA thrown around a lot but folks don't really want BPA they want "potential" and that is completely different

[HEZI]

I think most are being pretty fair with the prospects around here. Obviously everyone has there bias in what they like in prospects but for the most part.

Everyone has the right to there opinion thats why we have this message board but I do think your are being extra harsh on Lamelo and Hayes who are widely considered the two best PG's in the draft. While they do have there flaws most people who scout and do this for a living have them 1 and 2. Now you have every right to see it differently but there is a reason they have these guys 1 and 2.

You specifically have Cole and Haliburton above both. I would say you might be one of the few on that island which is cool but I think you need to understand where Deeeez is coming from he's really not arguing a different point then what 99% of the people are saying.

"two best PGs in the draft" is projection based and there is no proof in the pudding for it, that's my point. It's an opinion and there is no evidence to show it. It's just based on opinion. The stats don't back it up, the eye test doesn't back it up, it's opinion based.

thats what the draft is though...

Boom!

[Deeeez Knicks]

There is a lot of hyperbole here. "insane vision/feel/IQ" is gassing him up quite a bit. You also have to take him as the player he is, not the player you picture him being in your ideal idea of him. The player that he is is a guy who shoots a lot and is inefficient, so even if you aren't drafting him to be that you are still going to get that.

You have to project players out into what kind of players you think they will become especially with so many young players. Not every player is the same age either so they are at different stages. Yea, there is more risk in LaMelo then Haliburton....LaMelo is also 1 1/2 years younger.

Def a chance it doesnt come together or he remains too inefficient but I would take the chance. Upside is still huge imo. If Knicks have the chance they need to roll the dice on the right players. LaMelo is def worth rolling the dice on. Just disagree on him

I'd rather take the risk on Cole considering the Knicks current needs and weaknesses. Lamelo doesn't fill what the Knicks need from their lead guard. He could fill it for another team but imo we need more of what Cole brings than what Lamelo does.

So Cole's inefficiency doesn't scare you then but LaMelo's does? I do think LaMelo was in a tougher situation to adapt to then Cole too.

Cole looks like the better shooter and think he will be fine shooting the ball...he is a beast on the pullup jumpers. But more concerned that he doesnt look like a good playmaker/decision maker...he has hops, but not overly explosive, and is undersized. Looks more like a scoring G or undersized SG. Just dont see him worth a top 10 pick right now.

[HEZI]

You have to project players out into what kind of players you think they will become especially with so many young players. Not every player is the same age either so they are at different stages. Yea, there is more risk in LaMelo then Haliburton....LaMelo is also 1 1/2 years younger.

Def a chance it doesnt come together or he remains too inefficient but I would take the chance. Upside is still huge imo. If Knicks have the chance they need to roll the dice on the right players. LaMelo is def worth rolling the dice on. Just disagree on him

I'd rather take the risk on Cole considering the Knicks current needs and weaknesses. Lamelo doesn't fill what the Knicks need from their lead guard. He could fill it for another team but imo we need more of what Cole brings than what Lamelo does.

So Cole's inefficiency doesn't scare you then but LaMelo's does? I do think LaMelo was in a tougher situation to adapt to then Cole too.

Cole looks like the better shooter and think he will be fine shooting the ball...he is a beast on the pullup jumpers. But more concerned that he doesnt look like a good playmaker/decision maker...he has hops, but not overly explosive, and is undersized. Looks more like a scoring G or undersized SG. Just dont see him worth a top 10 pick right now.

How is Lamelo a good decision maker when he settled for terrible shots and did so quite often? Those aren't the traits of a good decision maker. This high IQ and good decision maker label for him just doesn't fit. He took a lot of shots, bad shots, and wasn't good at making them so that's not somebody I am going to label a good decision maker.

A 6'3" PG is not undersized not even in the NBA. As far as Cole's inefficiency he mainly struggled finishing in the paint. Knicks have a bunch of options to score in the paint so I'm really not concerned with Cole driving and finishing in the paint when the success of the Knicks won't depend on that. Even with that he still got to the line so it's not like he lacks attacking ability, he can and will apply pressure on the defense to collapse if need be. RJ likes to get in the paint, Robinson likes to roll and finish down there, what we need is spacing and shooting and Cole would instantly become our best outside shooting PG and that's something we need.

[mpharris36]

what the knicks need is the best player not a specific trait. There are a blank canvas...there are 2 maybe 3 (in my eyes) players with long term futures here currently on the roster. So I wouldn't make any decision on what the knicks currently don't have because in a year the roster will look completely different.

Best player huh? So Haliburton over Lamelo it is then

You are now going to flip over to "projection" and "potential" aren't you?

I see BPA thrown around a lot but folks don't really want BPA they want "potential" and that is completely different

then why aren't you suggesting Grant Riller over Cole Anthony then?

[King of Canada]

I have had discussions but I have a perfect scenario if the top 7 falls the way I think it could go I might be making all my selections. I actually have a pretty strong plan A that would net my 9 prospects who could all get playing time on my team.

Want to free up some space and unload Bamba

Spoiler:

with a pick attached, for Evans, Pasecniks, and Chandler

?

[Deeeez Knicks]

I'd rather take the risk on Cole considering the Knicks current needs and weaknesses. Lamelo doesn't fill what the Knicks need from their lead guard. He could fill it for another team but imo we need more of what Cole brings than what Lamelo does.

So Cole's inefficiency doesn't scare you then but LaMelo's does? I do think LaMelo was in a tougher situation to adapt to then Cole too.

Cole looks like the better shooter and think he will be fine shooting the ball...he is a beast on the pullup jumpers. But more concerned that he doesnt look like a good playmaker/decision maker...he has hops, but not overly explosive, and is undersized. Looks more like a scoring G or undersized SG. Just dont see him worth a top 10 pick right now.

How is Lamelo a good decision maker when he settled for terrible shots and did so quite often? Those aren't the traits of a good decision maker. This high IQ and good decision maker label for him just doesn't fit. He took a lot of shots, bad shots, and wasn't good at making them so that's not somebody I am going to label a good decision maker.

A 6'3" PG is not undersized not even in the NBA. As far as Cole's inefficiency he mainly struggled finishing in the paint. Knicks have a bunch of options to score in the paint so I'm really not concerned with Cole driving and finishing in the paint when the success of the Knicks won't depend on that. Even with that he still got to the line so it's not like he lacks attacking ability, he can and will apply pressure on the defense to collapse if need be. RJ likes to get in the paint, Robinson likes to roll and finish down there, what we need is spacing and shooting and Cole would instantly become our best outside shooting PG and that's something we need.

LaMelo can make every pass in the book and see's plays develop. He's a great passer/facilitator/playmaker. He was not a great decision maker especially forcing shots, but that is something that can be cleaned up. Some of it was situational. You just can't teach the vision though.

Cole was neither a great passer, nor a great playmaker nor a great facilator plus took bad shots. He has much much further to go on that end. 4 assists to 3.5 TOs is really bad.

Cole has ok size for a PG. Looks a little shorter then 6'3", with not much wingspan. If we are just looking for shooting, there's better shooters in the draft or can find someone later on to fill that role. If we can find a primary ball handler/facilitator that would be much more valuable.

[HEZI]

what the knicks need is the best player not a specific trait. There are a blank canvas...there are 2 maybe 3 (in my eyes) players with long term futures here currently on the roster. So I wouldn't make any decision on what the knicks currently don't have because in a year the roster will look completely different.

Best player huh? So Haliburton over Lamelo it is then

You are now going to flip over to "projection" and "potential" aren't you?

I see BPA thrown around a lot but folks don't really want BPA they want "potential" and that is completely different

then why aren't you suggesting Grant Riller over Cole Anthony then?

Because he's not a better shooter than Cole even as a senior

If we are going to take a young player with potential then the base with which they are coming in with needs to be high quality. Having said that I do see some sleeper pick options available and Riller is one of those guys. Winston and Tre Jones are other candidates from the PG spot as well.

[mpharris36]

I have had discussions but I have a perfect scenario if the top 7 falls the way I think it could go I might be making all my selections. I actually have a pretty strong plan A that would net my 9 prospects who could all get playing time on my team.

Want to free up some space and unload Bamba

Spoiler:

with a pick attached, for Evans, Pasecniks, and Chandler

?

with a pick coming my way, sure. Not trading a 7 footers that shot 36% from 3 with elite rim protection. He just has gotten the short end of the stick playing limited minutes behind Vuc.

[HEZI]

So Cole's inefficiency doesn't scare you then but LaMelo's does? I do think LaMelo was in a tougher situation to adapt to then Cole too.

Cole looks like the better shooter and think he will be fine shooting the ball...he is a beast on the pullup jumpers. But more concerned that he doesnt look like a good playmaker/decision maker...he has hops, but not overly explosive, and is undersized. Looks more like a scoring G or undersized SG. Just dont see him worth a top 10 pick right now.

How is Lamelo a good decision maker when he settled for terrible shots and did so quite often? Those aren't the traits of a good decision maker. This high IQ and good decision maker label for him just doesn't fit. He took a lot of shots, bad shots, and wasn't good at making them so that's not somebody I am going to label a good decision maker.

A 6'3" PG is not undersized not even in the NBA. As far as Cole's inefficiency he mainly struggled finishing in the paint. Knicks have a bunch of options to score in the paint so I'm really not concerned with Cole driving and finishing in the paint when the success of the Knicks won't depend on that. Even with that he still got to the line so it's not like he lacks attacking ability, he can and will apply pressure on the defense to collapse if need be. RJ likes to get in the paint, Robinson likes to roll and finish down there, what we need is spacing and shooting and Cole would instantly become our best outside shooting PG and that's something we need.

LaMelo can make every pass in the book and see's plays develop. He's a great passer/facilitator/playmaker. He was not a great decision maker especially forcing shots, but that is something that can be cleaned up. Some of it was situational. You just can't teach the vision though.

Cole was neither a great passer, nor a great playmaker nor a great facilator plus took bad shots. He has much much further to go on that end. 4 assists to 3.5 TOs is really bad.

Cole has ok size for a PG. Looks a little shorter then 6'3", with not much wingspan. If we are just looking for shooting, there's better shooters in the draft or can find someone later on to fill that role. If we can find a primary ball handler/facilitator that would be much more valuable.

Elfrid Payton averaged 7.2 assists with 2.1 turnovers but clearly that wasn't addressing our weakness. If Lamelo gets a pass for "situational" factors then so does Cole. If Lamelo has things he needs to clean up in his game so does Cole. Standards need to apply equally. The size and wingspan debate is played out, don't really care to even get into that anymore as it's been proven wrong year after year.

[King of Canada]

I have had discussions but I have a perfect scenario if the top 7 falls the way I think it could go I might be making all my selections. I actually have a pretty strong plan A that would net my 9 prospects who could all get playing time on my team.

Want to free up some space and unload Bamba

Spoiler:

with a pick attached, for Evans, Pasecniks, and Chandler

?

with a pick coming my way, sure. Not trading a 7 footers that shot 36% from 3 with elite rim protection. He just has gotten the short end of the stick playing limited minutes behind Vuc.

I'd think about a future pick

[Deeeez Knicks]

How is Lamelo a good decision maker when he settled for terrible shots and did so quite often? Those aren't the traits of a good decision maker. This high IQ and good decision maker label for him just doesn't fit. He took a lot of shots, bad shots, and wasn't good at making them so that's not somebody I am going to label a good decision maker.

A 6'3" PG is not undersized not even in the NBA. As far as Cole's inefficiency he mainly struggled finishing in the paint. Knicks have a bunch of options to score in the paint so I'm really not concerned with Cole driving and finishing in the paint when the success of the Knicks won't depend on that. Even with that he still got to the line so it's not like he lacks attacking ability, he can and will apply pressure on the defense to collapse if need be. RJ likes to get in the paint, Robinson likes to roll and finish down there, what we need is spacing and shooting and Cole would instantly become our best outside shooting PG and that's something we need.

LaMelo can make every pass in the book and see's plays develop. He's a great passer/facilitator/playmaker. He was not a great decision maker especially forcing shots, but that is something that can be cleaned up. Some of it was situational. You just can't teach the vision though.

Cole was neither a great passer, nor a great playmaker nor a great facilator plus took bad shots. He has much much further to go on that end. 4 assists to 3.5 TOs is really bad.

Cole has ok size for a PG. Looks a little shorter then 6'3", with not much wingspan. If we are just looking for shooting, there's better shooters in the draft or can find someone later on to fill that role. If we can find a primary ball handler/facilitator that would be much more valuable.

Elfrid Payton averaged 7.2 assists with 2.1 turnovers but clearly that wasn't addressing our weakness. If Lamelo gets a pass for "situational" factors then so does Cole. If Lamelo has things he needs to clean up in his game so does Cole. Standards need to apply equally. The size and wingspan debate is played out, don't really care to even get into that anymore as it's been proven wrong year after year.

Elfrid Payton not being good doesn't mean the Knicks can't use a PG. The Knicks still desperately need a good PG. I mean, Cole is supposed to be a PG too. They need shooters, defense...they pretty much need everything. If they can get a great player or star they could use that at any position.

I just disagree on Cole vs LaMelo though.

[HEZI]

LaMelo can make every pass in the book and see's plays develop. He's a great passer/facilitator/playmaker. He was not a great decision maker especially forcing shots, but that is something that can be cleaned up. Some of it was situational. You just can't teach the vision though.

Cole was neither a great passer, nor a great playmaker nor a great facilator plus took bad shots. He has much much further to go on that end. 4 assists to 3.5 TOs is really bad.

Cole has ok size for a PG. Looks a little shorter then 6'3", with not much wingspan. If we are just looking for shooting, there's better shooters in the draft or can find someone later on to fill that role. If we can find a primary ball handler/facilitator that would be much more valuable.

Elfrid Payton averaged 7.2 assists with 2.1 turnovers but clearly that wasn't addressing our weakness. If Lamelo gets a pass for "situational" factors then so does Cole. If Lamelo has things he needs to clean up in his game so does Cole. Standards need to apply equally. The size and wingspan debate is played out, don't really care to even get into that anymore as it's been proven wrong year after year.

Elfrid Payton not being good doesn't mean the Knicks can't use a PG. The Knicks still desperately need a good PG. I mean, Cole is supposed to be a PG too. They need shooters, defense...they pretty much need everything. If they can get a great player or star they could use that at any position.

I just disagree on Cole vs LaMelo though.

Elfrid Payton wasn't good because he couldn't shoot

In college Payton averaged 19 PPG / 6 APG / 6 RPG / 2 PG

He sucked as a shooter though that's still his main weakness in the NBA. So when you say Knicks need a good PG you gotta go more in depth about it. We need a PG with a certain skill set. A Ricky Rubio type of PG will not do much for us

[mpharris36]

Want to free up some space and unload Bamba

Spoiler:

with a pick attached, for Evans, Pasecniks, and Chandler

?

with a pick coming my way, sure. Not trading a 7 footers that shot 36% from 3 with elite rim protection. He just has gotten the short end of the stick playing limited minutes behind Vuc.

I'd think about a future pick

especially if im saving you two roster spaces

[3toheadmelo]

Any Malachi Flynn fans here? Seth Curry vibes

[King of Canada]

with a pick coming my way, sure. Not trading a 7 footers that shot 36% from 3 with elite rim protection. He just has gotten the short end of the stick playing limited minutes behind Vuc.

I'd think about a future pick

especially if im saving you two roster spaces

It's an easy buyout for you too. Pasecniks has been better than Mo though.

[mpharris36]

I'd think about a future pick

especially if im saving you two roster spaces

It's an easy buyout for you too. Pasecniks has been better than Mo though.

Mo has been better than Pasecniks. Mo avg 3.5 blocks per 36...Pasecniks barely over 1.

Bamba shot nearly 36% from 3 and nearly 70% from the line

When Pasecniks doesn't shoot 3's shot under 60% from the line.

Bamba also avg 12.5 boards per 36 rather than 9.0 for the later.

They both have pretty much identical TS%.

Bamba's defensive rating is 103 compared to Pas at 109

Bamba just hasn't been giving a the reigns to play more minutes but his production has been solid so far in a limited role.

All 3 would just be buyouts/releases for me.