Around the NBA 2

[thebuzzardman]

I guess Morey could make that argument. I don't know if it would be a very good one.

I could see top 5. Pretty easy to come up with a few names not that hard to consider better. Also easy to come up with a few names in the same area.

Better:
Wilt
MJ
Oscar Robertson


Probably better but maybe not, too close to call:
Bird
Magic
Kobe
LeBron
Kareem? (being the all time scorer should count in some way?)

If counting their 5 year peak, close but maybe edge Harden
Rick Barry (especially if including ABA stats)

Probably not but worth a mention
George Gervin
Steve Nash?
Julius Irving (ABA included, again)

Sure I'm missing a few

The Clickbait GM made an interesting debate

[1999]

Harden is a good player who was made great by the league because he has his own special rules where he can do multiple stepbacks and travel and he creates contact and flops and they give him foul calls for it leading to him shooting and egregious amount of free throws. I probably fouled him by making this comment

People just say flop and flail without crediting the fact that Harden has some of the best footwork and deceptive dribbling ability of all time. The reason Harden can "flop and fail" as you say is because he constantly puts defenders in compromised positions where they have to foul. Harden would be great in any era especially since zone defense was illegal and he'd have way more opportunity to go 1 on 1.

Thank you for this non biased view. Even if you (generally speaking) hate hardens style of play I feel at this point his talent is undeniable. He can score and pass at an elite level. The way he does it puts pressure on the defense and opens up opportunities for his teammates. Houston’s roster outside of harden and Cp3 is really not impressive at all. It’s arguably right there with Memphis.


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[GONYK]

He's a good 3 point shooter ( I wouldn't say elite) and definitely has limitless range. He goes to the FT line a lot. Like a LOT. I wonder how many of those flops and flails would be considered fouls back in the 80's.

I don't know I have my doubts on his overall level of greatness. He is a very good passer though. I personally think he would've been a borderline All Star back in the 80's. I just don't think he'd get to the FT line anywhere near as much as he does in today's current version of the NBA. The era you play in absolutely matters. Regardless it's all hypothetical and he's definitely great in his era.

Is there a shooting guard in the league right now that would be better than Harden is the 80's era?

No and Harden is practically a PG anyway.

Michael Jordan

[MrCheerios]

Is there a shooting guard in the league right now that would be better than Harden is the 80's era?

No and Harden is practically a PG anyway.

Michael Jordan

I was asking if there was a shooting guard in the league currently that would be better in the 80's, since he thinks Harden would be a fringe all-star due to hand checking. Not if there was a better shooting guard in the 80's.

[1999]

I agree with Morey. Not that Harden is the best. I just see him as being responsible for literally every aspect of Houston’s offense while he is on the court. He has to orchestrate everything whether he’s scoring or setting a teammate up. That doesn’t mean Jordan couldn’t do it and do it better. It means he never had to because of the system/coaching/teammates he had. Lebron also has a heavy burden in terms of this. But we’ve never seen anyone do it quite like harden where it’s strictly isolation dribble moves to get into the lane at will. How exhausting must that be to get by an individual defender each possession in that fashion and either score, assist or set up the hockey assist? So no he’s not better than wilt or Oscar it mj, Lebron or Kobe offensively. But when I look at his style of play and how he’s orchestrating everything he’s number 1 for me.


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[GONYK]

No and Harden is practically a PG anyway.

Michael Jordan

I was asking if there was a shooting guard in the league currently that would be better in the 80's, since he thinks Harden would be a fringe all-star due to hand checking. Not if there was a better shooting guard in the 80's.

Ah, misunderstood

[cuyankees]

Rockets GM says argument could be made for James Harden to be called best offensive player ever

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25681961/houston-rockets-gm-daryl-morey-says-james-harden-best-offensive-player-all

This has to be a joke. He's not even the first player to do what he's doing.

And it's not like he ever does it when it really matters.

LMK when he starts averaging +35ppg w hand checking allowed.

[Jeff Van Gully]

damn. i just looked at chris paul's contract. dude already falling apart, but has a deal through 2022. the last year being a $44m+ player option.

youth, y'all.

[Jeff Van Gully]

No and Harden is practically a PG anyway.

Michael Jordan

I was asking if there was a shooting guard in the league currently that would be better in the 80's, since he thinks Harden would be a fringe all-star due to hand checking. Not if there was a better shooting guard in the 80's.

i think most would be. but the biggest bump would come from basically the ones we relegate to 3-and-D. they would be playing in a league where their athletic gifts would be more special/appreciated. the athleticism and style of play is out of this world right now. some of those guys would be elite if let loose in the 80s.

[Capn'O]

Harden has limitless range, elite passing and court vision, deceptive quickness and strength. That bodes well for him being great in any era.


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He's a good 3 point shooter ( I wouldn't say elite) and definitely has limitless range. He goes to the FT line a lot. Like a LOT. I wonder how many of those flops and flails would be considered fouls back in the 80's.

I don't know I have my doubts on his overall level of greatness. He is a very good passer though. I personally think he would've been a borderline All Star back in the 80's. I just don't think he'd get to the FT line anywhere near as much as he does in today's current version of the NBA. The era you play in absolutely matters. Regardless it's all hypothetical and he's definitely great in his era.

Is there a shooting guard in the league right now that would be better than Harden is the 80's era?

Klay, Booker, and DeRozan fit the 80s prototype more. Harden would have had to adjust because less would be called for him and I do think some guy like Laimbeer would lay him out if he pulled some of the stuff he does. But he's also really, really good so it's hard to definitively put any of them above him.

[Knicksfan1992]

Rockets GM says argument could be made for James Harden to be called best offensive player ever

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25681961/houston-rockets-gm-daryl-morey-says-james-harden-best-offensive-player-all

This has to be a joke. He's not even the first player to do what he's doing.

And it's not like he ever does it when it really matters.

LMK when he starts averaging +35ppg w hand checking allowed.

Let me know when the 80s and 90s have as advanced defensive schemes as the league does today...

Look I love that era of hoops but the game was way simpler back then. People think just because tons of points are being scored that defenses arent as good anymore but it couldn't be any further from the truth.

[Knicksfan1992]

Michael Jordan

I was asking if there was a shooting guard in the league currently that would be better in the 80's, since he thinks Harden would be a fringe all-star due to hand checking. Not if there was a better shooting guard in the 80's.

i think most would be. but the biggest bump would come from basically the ones we relegate to 3-and-D. they would be playing in a league where their athletic gifts would be more special/appreciated. the athleticism and style of play is out of this world right now. some of those guys would be elite if let loose in the 80s.

I mean I think part of it is that the league was way more iso and post up dependent back then. So while those 3 and D guys are supremely athletic I dont think their games would translate as well as we think because they wouldn't be as encouraged to bomb away from 3 as they are now.

Part of the reason why they're relegated to 3 and D is because their best skill is shooting. If you de-emphasize someones best skill then, IMO you also lower their value. It's somewhat of a nature vs. nurture argument in a way.

For me a guy like Enes would translate way better than a 3 and D guy because his help defense responsibilities would be significantly lower while his post scoring would be way more valued.

[Jeff Van Gully]

I was asking if there was a shooting guard in the league currently that would be better in the 80's, since he thinks Harden would be a fringe all-star due to hand checking. Not if there was a better shooting guard in the 80's.

i think most would be. but the biggest bump would come from basically the ones we relegate to 3-and-D. they would be playing in a league where their athletic gifts would be more special/appreciated. the athleticism and style of play is out of this world right now. some of those guys would be elite if let loose in the 80s.

I mean I think part of it is that the league was way more iso and post up dependent back then. So while those 3 and D guys are supremely athletic I dont think their games would translate as well as we think because they wouldn't be as encouraged to bomb away from 3 as they are now.

Part of the reason why they're relegated to 3 and D is because their best skill is shooting. If you de-emphasize someones best skill then, IMO you also lower their value. It's somewhat of a nature vs. nurture argument in a way.

For me a guy like Enes would translate way better than a 3 and D guy because his help defense responsibilities would be significantly lower while his post scoring would be way more valued.

all very good points about the guards. and i completly agree about enes. it's not really the same discussion, because i think most will agree that back-to-the-basket skills translate much better to the 80s.

[dakomish23]

I have to find all the games I taped of MJ when I was a teenager. I used to tape all the Bulls Knicks games

Regrettably, I can’t believe I didn’t tape the first W for JVG. Me and my friends couldn’t stop going crazy as Harper was on fire (felt like it) from 3.

[GEOLINK]

And people wanted this guy on the Knicks? He's already causing **** on the Sixers...

Read on Twitter

[cuyankees]

This has to be a joke. He's not even the first player to do what he's doing.

And it's not like he ever does it when it really matters.

LMK when he starts averaging +35ppg w hand checking allowed.

Let me know when the 80s and 90s have as advanced defensive schemes as the league does today...

Look I love that era of hoops but the game was way simpler back then. People think just because tons of points are being scored that defenses arent as good anymore but it couldn't be any further from the truth.

Defense is terrible now bc of the rule changes, advanced or not, it’s just horrendous.

Harden is great don’t get me wrong, but what MJ did during the hand checking era isn’t comparable to this era. Prime MJ would go for 50ppg in this era easy.

[1999]

And people wanted this guy on the Knicks? He's already causing **** on the Sixers...

Read on Twitter

I’m a huge jimmy fan but now he’s becoming a pain in the ass. I understood his grievances with both Chicago and Minnesota but he’s overdoing it now. He’s not good enough to cause so many issues. Brett Brown will be tired at the end of the season at this rate.


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[JBreezeNY]

And people wanted this guy on the Knicks? He's already causing **** on the Sixers...

Read on Twitter

I’m a huge jimmy fan but now he’s becoming a pain in the ass. I understood his grievances with both Chicago and Minnesota but he’s overdoing it now. He’s not good enough to cause so many issues. Brett Brown will be tired at the end of the season at this rate.


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What are you two even talking about?

The offense sucks & Brett is a big part of it.

Jimmy is well within his right to challenge it especially with Simmons bogging down the offensive flow.

Stop reading into headlines and actually look at the situation in full detail.

[spree2kawhi]

Rockets GM says argument could be made for James Harden to be called best offensive player ever

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25681961/houston-rockets-gm-daryl-morey-says-james-harden-best-offensive-player-all

This has to be a joke. He's not even the first player to do what he's doing.

And it's not like he ever does it when it really matters.

Eh I don't think it's that far fetched... He has one of the highest usage rates ever and yet maintains supreme efficiency. Also, when you factor in his passing ability off of that (averaging 8 apg since he's been in a Rocket Uniform with now 1 and a half of those years being spent with one of the greatest passers of all time). The list is pretty low if guys who combine his usage, efficiency and passing ability statistically.

I definitely wouldn't go as far to say that he's definitively the best offensive player ever but IMO it's not ridiculous to say he's top 5.

With that usage rate and system many past greats would have looked tremendous. Harden is no better weapon than Kobe, Jordan, Durant or Shaq and I'm leaving out Magic, Bird, Kareem and Wilt here.
This coming from the Rockets' corner is pure homerism. Give Kobe that many touches and freedom, he's way better.

That said, the eye test suggests that there's never been a more featured player than Harden. 95% of their possessions seem to start with him and run through him. Does that make him better? No.

[Knicksfan1992]

This has to be a joke. He's not even the first player to do what he's doing.

And it's not like he ever does it when it really matters.

Eh I don't think it's that far fetched... He has one of the highest usage rates ever and yet maintains supreme efficiency. Also, when you factor in his passing ability off of that (averaging 8 apg since he's been in a Rocket Uniform with now 1 and a half of those years being spent with one of the greatest passers of all time). The list is pretty low if guys who combine his usage, efficiency and passing ability statistically.

I definitely wouldn't go as far to say that he's definitively the best offensive player ever but IMO it's not ridiculous to say he's top 5.

With that usage rate and system many past greats would have looked tremendous. Harden is no better weapon than Kobe, Jordan, Durant or Shaq and I'm leaving out Magic, Bird, Kareem and Wilt here.
This coming from the Rockets' corner is pure homerism. Give Kobe that many touches and freedom, he's way better.

Durant Shaq, Kobe and Jordan all had similar usage rates to Harden. It's not homerism. It's a fact that Harden is one of the best offensive players of all time. I'm not willing to say number 1 but he belongs at least in the conversation.

Using years 23(Hardens first year with Rockets) to 29 (Current season)

Also could be defined as an athlete's peak years.

Below is how the usage rates stack up as a cumulative, True Shooting % and Ast %.

Harden - 32.2% usg 61% TS 32% ast
Kobe - 32.7% usg 56% TS 25% ast
MJ - 33.9% usg 59% TS 27% ast
KD - 30.6% usg 64% TS 23.1% ast
Shaq - 31.9% usg 57% TS 16.8% ast.

Obviously with a new found emphasis on the 3 and efficiency the modern guys are a bit more efficient than the older players but you're kidding yourself if you think those guys would be head and shoulders above Harden.

The numbers above arent the end all be all but it shows that Harden belongs in that pantheon of offensive talent.