2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 3)

[3toheadmelo]

https://theathletic.com/1761358/2020/04/21/vecenies-2020-nba-draft-buzz-some-names-moving-up-and-down-the-board/

Sam Vecenie's on what he's hearing about a couple prospect from league sources:

Kira Lewis

Spoiler:

Tyrese Maxey:

Spoiler:

Aaron Nesmith:

Spoiler:

RJ Hampton:

Spoiler:

Nico Mannion

Spoiler:

Kira Lewis can low key be one of the best guards in the draft. Was watching more footage of him and I’m very intrigued.

I actually prefer him over Cole.

Same

[Richard4444]

Curious to see what Minny does with that 16th pick. If they are in a win now mode, would make sense for them to move that pick for a win now piece. If they do land Obi that would give them some really nice firepower but they gotta strengthen that bench though. Would love to snatch that 16th pick from them if possible.

I want their pick too.

Johnson + 16th pick for Randle + SRP

Draft Aaron Nesmith

They would not do that. I think JJ was more useful to the Wolves than Randle was to us.

Only way to a trade happens is to Wolves for whatever reason decide that they need is depth to the Towns/Culver/DLO/Malik core and agree with a trade like:

2 or 3 average Knicks players (Frank/Knox/DSJr/Payton/Taj/Bullock/Randle) + LAC pick or 2RP for 16 pick (salary absorbed with cap space or trading JJ).

[moocow007]

https://theathletic.com/1761358/2020/04/21/vecenies-2020-nba-draft-buzz-some-names-moving-up-and-down-the-board/

Sam Vecenie's on what he's hearing about a couple prospect from league sources:


Tyrese Maxey:

Spoiler:

Kentucky’s Tyrese Maxey isn’t “dropping,” but his range on draft night is a bit wider than people think

The player who got brought up often in comparison to Lewis in my conversation with NBA teams was Maxey. Both guys played in the same league this year as 6-foot-3 guards in multi-lead guard systems. Both are freshman-aged, although Lewis is actually about six months younger despite being a sophomore. All season, Maxey has been considered higher on most boards, both internally on the team side and externally from public-facing evaluators. But with some distance from the season and some time to go back and see what they’ve done, many evaluators are wondering why.

Maxey certainly has better size at 6-foot-3 with a jacked 200-pound frame. He’s better defensively than what Lewis brings to the table. The Kentucky guard is dogged on-ball, and can slide down the lineup to guard 2s with ease. Then in switches, he can at least hold his own. At about 170 pounds, Lewis struggles with that. But offensively, it’s just not really all that close right now.
Lewis is quicker, and diagnoses defenses better both as a passer and as a scorer. His burst and creativity as a ballhandler allow him to be more of a driver of play, whereas Maxey lacks a real first step explosion. Lewis has been a more consistent shooter throughout their careers. More and more evaluators are looking at Lewis and believing him to be a superior prospect. I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s a widespread belief that will result in Lewis going ahead of Maxey on draft night, but in aggregate, they’re much closer on draft boards than what the consensus would have you believe.

The reason has to do with Maxey being hit or miss as a prospect for many across the NBA. Largely, it has to do with how you evaluate his jump shot. Maxey made shots at lower levels. Despite being clearly the top of the priority list for every team he played in AAU and in high school — and taking a ton of pull-up 3s in the process — Maxey hit 35 percent of his career high school 3s, 33 percent of his 3s in his final year of AAU, and was consistently up over 80 percent from the foul line.

He also displays terrific touch on floaters and runners in the paint, thus minimizing the issue he has in regard to explosiveness as a finisher. But then at Kentucky this year, Maxey hit just 29 percent of his 3s. He also has a bit of a lower release point that some evaluators think may be easier to contest, and require him to shoot from further distances out to get clean shots off.

Look, I’m admittedly a fan of Maxey. I have him at No. 13 on my updated personal board that will come out next week. I think this season was the shooting aberration, and that he’s going to hit shots in his career. Plus, he’s considered to be an elite level kid who is a hard worker and highly intelligent. I buy into him figuring it out and becoming an impact role player due to the number of ways he can affect the game.

But he’s genuinely all over the place for evaluators on the team side. Some love him for the same reasons I do and think he’s in the vicinity of being a top-10 guy. Others just don’t buy into the shot as much, and that, mixed with the questionable athletic burst, is hard for them to get past. I’ve even talked to evaluators who have him outside of the top-20. Based off the feedback I’ve gotten, I’d say his draft range is pretty similar to Lewis’ right now. It’s 10-20 or so.

RJ Hampton:

Spoiler:

The more teams compare the NCAA guard class’s tape with R.J. Hampton’s, the less impressed they are

R.J. Hampton didn’t have a great situation to thrive in Australia. He played for a coach who didn’t give him any freedom, and a team that fell apart at the seams quickly before recovering late in the season once he got hurt. And realistically, the NBL is a higher level of competition than the NCAA. But man, his tape really just doesn’t totally add up to that of a lottery pick.

Simply put, for a guy whose game is predicated around scoring, he just didn’t do it well enough at the NBL level. Out in transition, his game showed up more effectively because his combination of long strides and body control allowed him to cover ground quickly while beating the defense down the floor with the ball. But things went wrong in half-court settings. His efficiency as a driver and finisher wasn’t great. Among the 65 players in the league to attempt at least 30 shots at the basket, Hampton finished 48th, according to Synergy.
Largely, I think it was due to a lack of lift and bend. He actually has pretty real burst from his first step (when he does bend) and can blow by players, but it’s not consistently in his repertoire, which allows for defenders to keep in front more consistently than they should. Then, he’s more of a gliding, body control finisher in the air than someone who explodes through players. It’s not a great recipe right now.

On top of that, his jump shot is going to require a lot of work. He doesn’t get great lift, he slings the ball a bit from the left side of his head across his body, and doesn’t really get much leg involvement, resulting in a line drive trajectory and an awful lot of shots coming up short. He hit just 29.4 percent of his shots from 3. Overall, he made just 25 percent of his jumpers, which was 60th out of 64 players to take at least 50 jumpers in the league. He was a bad shooter this year, and it’s going to have to be reworked from the ground up. Simply put, his best skill — scoring the basketball — just didn’t translate.

I actually liked what I saw from Hampton more as a distributor than I did as a scorer. He made some pretty creative passes and also did a good job of limiting turnovers. His decision-making was quick, and he displayed a high level feel for the game there. But he also didn’t exactly light the world on fire as a pick-and-roll creator, either. Again, that lack of bend showed up. He was much more of a second-side, tertiary option at that level. He excelled at that role when asked to pass, and it seemed like the Breakers offense worked a bit better when he was out there due to the ball movement.

But the bigger problem was on defense. Hampton was pretty awful. It’s not an accident the team’s defense got much better as a whole when he was out of the game (or when he went out with his injury). He wasn’t quite engaged enough on a possession-by-possession basis, and wasn’t comfortable in rotation. The Breakers were about 7.4 points per 100 possessions worse when Hampton was on the floor, according to the great NBL advanced stats site Spatial Jam.

Not all of this is to say that Hampton is a bad player and shouldn’t be taken in the first round at all. His mix of burst and body control is pretty real if the skills catch up. We have a sample of Hampton being quite good at lower levels, and again, he was playing professional basketball directly out of high school for a bad team. Other than LaMelo Ball, he’s had more success in the NBL than any other Next Star program participant.

But I think it’s more likely that Hampton hears his name called somewhere from 11 to 22 or so than it is within the top-10, based on the feedback I’m getting right now. He’s someone who could have really used the workout environment to wash the bad taste of the tape out of evaluators’ mouths. Unfortunately, the truncated pre-draft process likely won’t give him that chance.

Pretty much right on in terms of why I specifically mentioned both these guys are overrated yesterday in my opinion post (where I also mentioned Jaden McDaniels and Paul Reed...with Reed being the only guy of the 4 that I see as a plus relative to each players hype and early draft positioning).

I'm definitely not Sam V nor one of his league sources, but what he's saying is basically what you see if you get pass the hype and preconceived notions that has build in folks heads about these guys and just simply watch them really seriously play. Then try to imagine how that actually will or won't translate to the NBA. Again forget about stats, forget about what you thought he was, forget about whether he's a boyscout or not, forget about HS highlights, forget about what you read from scouts, forget about that RJ Hampton was supposed to be the next Kobe Bryant. Forget all that crap. What you basically have is a lead PG prospect that doesn't have lead NBA point guard skills and a lead SG prospect that doesn't have lead NBA SG skills (in Hampton's case he really can't do anything a lead NBA SG can do other than dunk if he has a wide open lane to the basket...that's not a SG, that's a guy that can dunk if no one is guarding him...about 99.44% of the NBA can do that). It's pretty easy actually to see if folks just objectively look at these guys. Doesn't mean they're crap, it just means they aren't what they are hyped to be and maybe folks are using their imagination to think they are.

I'm all for imagination and hope but not in the case of trying to figure out whether a guy can actually play in the NBA. Forget about liking the notion of a guy or hating the notion of a guy, an **** can be a much better NBA player than a boyscout (and vice versa). Watch each guy on the court and what they can and can't do. That's it. That's the only thing that matters when trying to figure out if the guy has the game to play in the NBA at the level that he's expected to play.

[mpharris36]

Kira Lewis can low key be one of the best guards in the draft. Was watching more footage of him and I’m very intrigued.

he's moved his way up to late lottery I think

I wouldn't mind the Knicks trading down for him if we are in the 6-10 range

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

[3toheadmelo]

he's moved his way up to late lottery I think

I wouldn't mind the Knicks trading down for him if we are in the 6-10 range

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

Kira might be the best guard after Lamelo

[RHODEY]

he's moved his way up to late lottery I think

I wouldn't mind the Knicks trading down for him if we are in the 6-10 range

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

I like Kira over Cole but the guy is like in the low 20's on draft boards. Not sure I would trade back that far. In stead I might try to trade up...or even hope we just luck out with him later in the draft.

[mpharris36]

I wouldn't mind the Knicks trading down for him if we are in the 6-10 range

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

Kira might be the best guard after Lamelo

That is possible. I do think Hayes has the potential to be the best as well with his high upside.

Lewis is a safer pick for sure but he also has a lower celing then someone like Hayes.

[thebuzzardman]

All that matters is that we suck next year (if there's a next year) to get a high pick in the 2021 draft in addition to the Dallas pick.

Then we're really looking at adding an elite prospect + another first round draft pick in a good draft, or use the Dallas pick to move up. The 2021 draft could singlehandedly turn this franchise around.

This year's draft sucks. I'm not expecting we're going to draft a game changer. In fact, I'm more afraid we're going to draft a bust and waste precious minutes, training and development resources on him, whoever he may be.

But I hope this new front office will be wise enough to understand we need to suck one or two more years, unless of course our success is driven by our young players, mainly RJ and Mitch, in which case you have to let them do their thing.

Damn forgot about those Dallas picks...

They aren't going to amount to much. They've got Luka and Porzingis locked up long term and a ton of cap space after the upcoming season. Dallas has a strong stable front office, is in a large city, nice weather, has no state tax and already has 2 young stars on it. They'll be able to attract another start to team with the 2 they have (both of whom should be hitting their peak) in the season leading up to the 'unprotected' 1st that Dallas owes the Knicks. Those picks are Fool's Gold. Steve Mills was the Fool and the picks are the Gold. This is the image I have in my head of how the other 29 GM's in the NBA reacted to the news of Steve Mills firing.

Don't care if they are in the 20's. They are cost free assets until drafted, then, X amount of cost controlled, cheap talent after drafted (if Knicks retain those picks)

Not going to re-litigate the KP trade, and Mills sucked and Perry no great shakes, but getting a couple of first round picks, even not great ones, is a positive.
Obviously, how well they scout in that range those years, luck in the draft, luck around any Dallas misfortune, ability to swing a trade with one or both of those picks, that that trade be good, etc all play into just HOW positive it was to get them, but getting extra 1st round picks, even low ones, in the 2 Dallas picks and then the Clippers pick, are positive moves in the right direction for the Knicks.
Even though signing journeyman JAGS, while how they were used sucked, the fact that longer term cap space was maintained (minus Randle - even not bad) was also a positive step.

Might be "GM'ing 101" or "Basics of competent NBA team management" but for the Knicks, that's kind of a big deal.

Which of course they'll probably screw up massively.

[mpharris36]

I wouldn't mind the Knicks trading down for him if we are in the 6-10 range

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

I like Kira over Cole but the guy is like in the low 20's on draft boards. Not sure I would trade back that far. In stead I might try to trade up...or even hope we just luck out with him later in the draft.

draft boards have been pretty stagnant. I believe Lewis is going in the 14-20 range for sure. Trending more to the late lottery.

[RHODEY]

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

I like Kira over Cole but the guy is like in the low 20's on draft boards. Not sure I would trade back that far. In stead I might try to trade up...or even hope we just luck out with him later in the draft.

draft boards have been pretty stagnant. I believe Lewis is going in the 14-20 range for sure. Trending more to the late lottery.

Tankathan currently has him at 22 ...we'll see..I favor this snapshot because we get my guy HAYES

But honestly I think I also prefer Tre Jones to Cole as well.

[3toheadmelo]

if Hayes is gone before our pick in that range I would also consider doing something like this over taking Cole Anthony

Kira might be the best guard after Lamelo

That is possible. I do think Hayes has the potential to be the best as well with his high upside.

Lewis is a safer pick for sure but he also has a lower celing then someone like Hayes.

Might be a toss up between those 2. Big fans of them both. Haliburton trailing right behind them. Coleslaw at the bottom

[mpharris36]

Kira might be the best guard after Lamelo

That is possible. I do think Hayes has the potential to be the best as well with his high upside.

Lewis is a safer pick for sure but he also has a lower celing then someone like Hayes.

Might be a toss up between those 2. Big fans of them both. Haliburton trailing right behind them. Coleslaw at the bottom

Haliburton having no mid range game is going to be tough to live with. I like other parts of his game but Frank kinda duplicates a lot what Haliburton can bring.

I would probably rank the pg's right now

LaMelo
Hayes
Lewis
Haliburton
Cole Anthony

then I like Tre Jones as an option later in the 1st round.

[3toheadmelo]

That is possible. I do think Hayes has the potential to be the best as well with his high upside.

Lewis is a safer pick for sure but he also has a lower celing then someone like Hayes.

Might be a toss up between those 2. Big fans of them both. Haliburton trailing right behind them. Coleslaw at the bottom

Haliburton having no mid range game is going to be tough to live with. I like other parts of his game but Frank kinda duplicates a lot what Haliburton can bring.

I would probably rank the pg's right now

LaMelo
Hayes
Lewis
Haliburton
Cole Anthony

then I like Tre Jones as an option later in the 1st round.

Yeah I think I would rank them the same way. Might put Kira over Hayes but not sure. Hayes is super left hand dominant which worries me but he is def one of the top PG prospects in this draft.

I was telling someone before that Haliburton is similar to Frank with their handles. Very basic. But besides the handle issue, Haliburton is superior than Frank in every other aspect on offense. He has really good court vision, crafty finisher, great 3 point shooter, really nice in transition. Honestly, if Haliburton really works on that handle he can be like SGA but with better court vision. That's a great player.

[mpharris36]

Might be a toss up between those 2. Big fans of them both. Haliburton trailing right behind them. Coleslaw at the bottom

Haliburton having no mid range game is going to be tough to live with. I like other parts of his game but Frank kinda duplicates a lot what Haliburton can bring.

I would probably rank the pg's right now

LaMelo
Hayes
Lewis
Haliburton
Cole Anthony

then I like Tre Jones as an option later in the 1st round.

Yeah I think I would rank them the same way. Might put Kira over Hayes but not sure. Hayes is super left hand dominant which worries me but he is def one of the top PG prospects in this draft.

I was telling someone before that Haliburton is similar to Frank with their handles. Very basic. But besides the handle issue, Haliburton is superior than Frank in every other aspect on offense. He has really good court vision, crafty finisher, great 3 point shooter. Honestly, if Haliburton really works on that handle he can be like SGA but with better court vision. That's a great player.

I like Haliburton but the zero mid range game concerns me. And I do agree he is more skilled offensively in about every facet over Frank outside of that mid-range/shooting off the dribble game.

that is completely no exhistant for Haliburton and that is where I struggle to see him taking the next step. Like what elite guard can't shoot off the dribble. Especially in the post season where defenses force you into those shots, Haliburton release isn't really conducive to mid range. But he can have a Lonzo Ball impact where he can hit the 3 and be a good playmaker.

[3toheadmelo]

Haliburton having no mid range game is going to be tough to live with. I like other parts of his game but Frank kinda duplicates a lot what Haliburton can bring.

I would probably rank the pg's right now

LaMelo
Hayes
Lewis
Haliburton
Cole Anthony

then I like Tre Jones as an option later in the 1st round.

Yeah I think I would rank them the same way. Might put Kira over Hayes but not sure. Hayes is super left hand dominant which worries me but he is def one of the top PG prospects in this draft.

I was telling someone before that Haliburton is similar to Frank with their handles. Very basic. But besides the handle issue, Haliburton is superior than Frank in every other aspect on offense. He has really good court vision, crafty finisher, great 3 point shooter. Honestly, if Haliburton really works on that handle he can be like SGA but with better court vision. That's a great player.

I like Haliburton but the zero mid range game concerns me. And I do agree he is more skilled offensively in about every facet over Frank outside of that mid-range/shooting off the dribble game.

that is completely no exhistant for Haliburton and that is where I struggle to see him taking the next step. Like what elite guard can't shoot off the dribble. Especially in the post season where defenses force you into those shots, Haliburton release isn't really conducive to mid range. But he can have a Lonzo Ball impact where he can hit the 3 and be a good playmaker.

Frank can't shoot off the dribble either tho but he does have more mid range than Haliburton. Ive seen Haliburton make a couple of mid range shots but it was only a couple. Tbh I just want to see him work on that handle. I think that will truly unlock his game.

I would be contempt with a Lonzo Ball type player. Lonzo was playing pretty good from like January till the season got suspended and the Pelicans were starting to win more games

[knickstape21]

That Dallas pick next year is going to be lottery. Luka took the league by surprise this year and they got off to a hot start.

ONE injury to Doncic and we’re looking at a top 10 pick. You already know KP will be in and out all year.

[Chanel Bomber]

I like Kira over Cole but the guy is like in the low 20's on draft boards. Not sure I would trade back that far. In stead I might try to trade up...or even hope we just luck out with him later in the draft.

draft boards have been pretty stagnant. I believe Lewis is going in the 14-20 range for sure. Trending more to the late lottery.

Tankathan currently has him at 22 ...we'll see..I favor this snapshot because we get my guy HAYES

But honestly I think I also prefer Tre Jones to Cole as well.

That 5-7 range

[Chanel Bomber]

That Dallas pick next year is going to be lottery. Luka took the league by surprise this year and they got off to a hot start.

ONE injury to Doncic and we’re looking at a top 10 pick. You already know KP will be in and out all year.

[HEZI]

Watch on YouTube

[3toheadmelo]

That Dallas pick next year is going to be lottery. Luka took the league by surprise this year and they got off to a hot start.

ONE injury to Doncic and we’re looking at a top 10 pick. You already know KP will be in and out all year.