Phil will talk today at 2:30 - WRITEUP - pg 17

[FKF]

Another act of selfishness on Melo's resume:

Y'all remember when Chauncey Billups was traded to the Nuggets that one year and resurrected the team? Was damn near an MVP candidate that season, and it was awesome to see. Of course he and Melo form a bond of sorts, and Melo could probably thank Billups a ton for coming in and handling the leadership role he obviously couldn't fill himself.

Fast forward to 2010, and it's time to force a trade to NY. Now, evidently, Billups loved it in Denver and was more than happy to be traded there. He was born and raised there, played college ball in Colorado, and by all means, did not want to leave. Not a big city guy like Melo, and he was in the twighlight of his career, but still playing well enough and feeling very comfortable with retiring as a Nugget. And this is a guy who deserves respect. Big time seniority over Melo, and a proven winner/NBA champ.

But Melo wanted NY. And he could have signed here as a FA just a few months later. We all know that. But Melo had to get his money up front, and he had to get out of Denver, asap. So f*ck you, Chauncey Billups. We're going to NY!!!

I remember Chauncey was pretty damn upset about that. Melo was happy though. Chauncey remained classy and supportive of Melo and tried to play his role for the Knicks like the pro that he always was.

Of course the Knicks were dominated in the playoffs that year. Billups went from being loved in Denver to being an afterthought in NY, and was eventually amnestied and sent away like a cheap hooker.

#stayme7o

Thanks Bro, and great post here.

In Denver, what they achieved in the WCF was widely due to Billups keeping those dudes in check.

George Karl was a highly respected coach before Denver, what he did in Seattle & Milwaukee was phenomenal as Amare'd say.

You remember in December when George Karl released his book ? All the media came out with the stories he was throwing "personal shots" at Carmelo and K-Mart, despite he was only stating the truth about the happened in Denver. Stephen A of course went on with a tirade on his own
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=18332690
and writers followed
http://nypost.com/2016/12/22/george-karl-rips-user-carmelo-anthony-in-upcoming-book/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2683287-george-karl-blasts-carmelo-anthony-in-upcoming-book-furious-george

The reaction around on the book, by the media and then on social media, was so bad, Karl had to apologize and shut down reactions.
https://www.si.com/nba/2017/01/11/george-karl-book-furious-george-reaction-carmelo-anthony-kings-nuggets

Karl's book was just released just 5-6 years too soon. Melo hated the release and made sure he'd hurt it.
All of a sudden, all his friends (Martin, JR) and in the media & @ ESPN, commented and made Karl look like a goof.

Carmelo was a true conundrum for me in the six years I had him. He was the best offensive player I ever coached. He was also a user of people, addicted to the spotlight and very unhappy when he had to share it.
He really lit my fuse with his low demand of himself on defense. He had no commitment to the hard, dirty work of stopping the other guy. My ideal — probably every coach's ideal — is when your best player is also your leader. But since Carmelo only played hard on one side of the ball, he made it plain he couldn't lead the Nuggets, even though he said he wanted to. Coaching him meant working around his defense and compensating for his attitude.

Only the truth hurts.

[FKF]

But it's not all on him. Does RC Buford get all the credit when the Spurs win a title? Coaches have to coach and players have to play.

Phil has bigger ideas than just enjoying one winning season and a single playoff appearance that ultimately falls short. Now, if he had mortgaged the future and went ALL IN on title hopes that fell way short, Phil would deserve to be axed. But that just isn't the case.

Fans want him fired because they can't handle losing, can't handle rebuilding, and are for the most part, suckers for a fake star like Melo who can get buckets and nothing else. The truth is, when you look at the big picture in the NBA, the fans are sweating the small stuff right now with the Knicks, and I can definitely blame a lot of that on the media.

I'm just glad I'm not one of those people who believes everything he reads or hears on radio/TV. I have a mind of my own. I can read between the lines and see what's actually taking place here.

Now, to be fair, a real criticism of Phil was that he never really tried to rebuild, he just kinda happened into it, and was never clear on the direction of the team, which are valid criticisms
However, a lot of people said they'd be okay with him if he just picked a direction, and by what he said in the press conference, he has, but people are still whining about it

I know this still sounds really ridiculous to some... but I don't think Phil just fell into a rebuilding situation. I don't truly believe it was a secret plan to tank per say, but I think it was a very calculated risk on his part.

He just said in the presser Friday that he had the same conversation in this year's exit meeting that he had with Melo last year. Basically, "if you don't think we're moving fast enough, maybe you should think about playing elsewhere". Which is the first time I've heard him say that he talked about a trade with Melo last summer. This is being overlooked. Before Friday, Phil had only talked about asking Melo if they were moving quickly enough, and then went on to say that when Melo responded with a 'no', they made the trade for Rose.

So what I think really happened is, Phil asked Melo last summer if he can hang in there with a rebuilding effort, Melo said no, Phil said let's trade you to another team then, and Melo said no again. So Phil called his bluff and made a trade and a signing that wouldn't hurt the team long-term, but would add star power to the team and really put the challenge on Melo to win. And in the likely event that the team fails with 2 injury prone guys who are well past their primes, the Knicks wind up with a draft pick and Melo is almost forced to leave. If on the contrary, the Knicks do catch lightening in a bottle with a Rose/Lee/Melo/KP/Noah squad, KP gets a chance to play some meaningful games in the post season, and Phil looks like a genius.

But here we are...

And this is why Dolan now allows Phil to trade Melo. Dolan was supportive of Melo for years, even despite the 2013-14 45 loss season which CAA orchestrated, but this last 51 loss season was one too many.

[thebuzzardman]

George Karl (still a famous dbag) on Melo:

"Coaching him meant working around his defense and compensating for his attitude."

No WAY! I mean, we've never seen any of those aspects of Melo during his time as a Knickl

[Tron Carter]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

[Bill Pidto]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

[digitaldropoff]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

Phil signed Joakim Noah for four years......he's the sucker.

[BigShot Bojan]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

Not that a player refused to adapt to ...Karl ,Woodson, Fisher, or Hornacek

[Handledatruth]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

Not that a player refused to adapt to ...Karl ,Woodson, Fisher, or Hornacek

Are these serious posts?

[prophet_of_rage]

Now, to be fair, a real criticism of Phil was that he never really tried to rebuild, he just kinda happened into it, and was never clear on the direction of the team, which are valid criticisms
However, a lot of people said they'd be okay with him if he just picked a direction, and by what he said in the press conference, he has, but people are still whining about it

I know this still sounds really ridiculous to some... but I don't think Phil just fell into a rebuilding situation. I don't truly believe it was a secret plan to tank per say, but I think it was a very calculated risk on his part.

He just said in the presser Friday that he had the same conversation in this year's exit meeting that he had with Melo last year. Basically, "if you don't think we're moving fast enough, maybe you should think about playing elsewhere". Which is the first time I've heard him say that he talked about a trade with Melo last summer. This is being overlooked. Before Friday, Phil had only talked about asking Melo if they were moving quickly enough, and then went on to say that when Melo responded with a 'no', they made the trade for Rose.

So what I think really happened is, Phil asked Melo last summer if he can hang in there with a rebuilding effort, Melo said no, Phil said let's trade you to another team then, and Melo said no again. So Phil called his bluff and made a trade and a signing that wouldn't hurt the team long-term, but would add star power to the team and really put the challenge on Melo to win. And in the likely event that the team fails with 2 injury prone guys who are well past their primes, the Knicks wind up with a draft pick and Melo is almost forced to leave. If on the contrary, the Knicks do catch lightening in a bottle with a Rose/Lee/Melo/KP/Noah squad, KP gets a chance to play some meaningful games in the post season, and Phil looks like a genius.

But here we are...

You sir are the smartest poster on this board.

I don't think that sounds ridiculous at all in fact I think you nailed it.Why else would we have a bench full of rooks......

Because we spent all our money on Noah, Rose, Lee and Melo so we had no choice but to find cheap contracts to fill a 15 man roster. Let's not forget the flier they took on Jennings. They needed cheap bodies to fill a top heavy roster that Phil put together.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[moocow007]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

Not that a player refused to adapt to ...Karl ,Woodson, Fisher, or Hornacek

?

George Karl formed his offense and the bulk of his success in Denver around Carmelo Anthony and those teams were perennial 50+ win teams. The fact that they so happen to have never gone far in the playoffs says either something about BOTH Anthony and Karl (you know team wins and team loses?) OR possibly and rather simply that there just were better teams out there in the West (and there were) RATHER than Anthony being the reason they didn't go deep in playoffs as is the common lemming driven narrative.

Woodson LOVED Anthony. Formed his offense around Anthony. Was the most successful Knicks head coach (relatively speaking) since Jeff Van Gundy with Anthony. So not sure where he refused to adapt to Woodson comes from...

Fisher? What beef did Anthony have with Fisher? Fisher didn't want to run the Triangle anymore than Anthony wanted to play in it. Fisher wanted to run an offense similar to what Karl ran in Denver because he apparently realized that his team wasn't put together to play the Triangle.

So that one outburst after an embarrassing loss to the Nets means Anthony refused to adapt to Hornacek (adapt to losing?)? So now you guys don't want him to be emotional? I thought one of the biggest complaints about him was that he doesn't get emotional? Can you guys make up your mind? Do you or do you not want him to get emotional about the losing?

The only guy that Anthony clearly "refused to adapt to" was Mike D'Antoni. And if D'Antoni was here when Jackson was here, D'Antoni would have been the first one to be let go cause D'Antoni most definitely would not have even remotely agreed to changing his system because his boss said so.

[Amsterdam]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

Phil signed Joakim Noah for four years......he's the sucker.

What else you got Bro?

[Tron Carter]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

Not that a player refused to adapt to ...Karl ,Woodson, Fisher, or Hornacek

such a garbage post. ya'll were calling him dad melo last season when he was leading this team in almost every major category.

[Handledatruth]

now everybody is a george karl fan. dude is unemployed for a reason. phil have ya'll looking like suckers.

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

History of our villainous star players below.

- Patrick Ewing was never willing to be enough of a passer to play in an offense good enough to win a championship. When needed the most, he could not capitalize on the hot shooting of the ever consistent John Starks in the 1994 NBA Finals. Towards the end of his career he was too old and was slowing the team down when they could have been running and dominating with guys like Sprewell and Marcus Camby.

- Allan Houston, tarnishing his reputation as one of the classiest and non-selfish all-stars to ever play for the Knicks, signs a 100 Million Dollar contract to remain a member of the team. He leveraged the fact that he was one of Dolan's favorites to practically rob the Knicks franchise for a payday knowing that his knees were degenerating. All financial woes that Knicks had afterward can be traced back to this contract.

- Stephon Marbury dreamed of playing for the Knicks his entire career, but being the same guy that wrote "All Alone" on his shoes while being a Net, he only lives up to his reputation as a cancer who is the main reason that teammates like Keith Van Horn,Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, David Lee, etc.. could not make it to the playoffs consistently. He eventually is accused of abandoning his team after coach D'Antoni hands the starting job to a superior Chris Duhon.

- Carmelo Anthony also dreamed of playing for the Knicks his entire career. Instead of verbally committing to the Denver Nuggets that he would re-sign at the end of the year or extend his contract, he remains non-committal. This forces the Denver Nuggets to look for teams that wanted Carmelo Anthony the most as a way of getting the compensation that Cleveland did not get after losing Lebron. This act of selfishness by Carmelo Anthony leads to the Knicks overpaying for him when they could've gotten a franchise changing point guard like Deron Williams . While being a Knick he influences Amare's self inflicted playoff injuries (yes plural), talks Jeremy Lin out of playing at 80%, angers Jeremy Lin into signing a ridiculous contract with Houston, forces Woodson to use the only iso offense he knows, forces Phil Jackson to add a no trade clause to his contract, and becomes the sole reason the triangle offense cannot be implemented successful with the younger Knick players.

Can't wait for the write-up on Porzingis. Maybe it will start with him shunning Knick management or something stupid like that...

[Bill Pidto]

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

Not that a player refused to adapt to ...Karl ,Woodson, Fisher, or Hornacek

such a garbage post. ya'll were calling him dad melo last season when he was leading this team in almost every major category.

He earned the nickname Dad Melo because the team ball he was playing and leadership he was displaying was such a far cry from what we were used to in previous seasons. I don't see anyone calling LeBron, Dad LeBron.

I give credit where it's due. I was riding with Melo every year until the Bargnani season when I could tell Melo's attitude and selfish play was tearing the team apart from the inside out. Then I was praising him the next year during 17 wins, and even last year when the team had some talent but still fell short of the playoffs.

For me, it's not about wins and losses because I know the league is either championship or bust, and more than any other league, unless you have a top 5 player, you'll have to lose for multiple seasons to be great again.

For me, it's more of an eye test with the team and with Melo. I know what I'm seeing. Combine that with what we're hearing, it's simple. Melo has to go, and I really think it takes a stupid person to believe we can ever win a title with him here at this point. What an incredible dillusion that is.

[Phish Tank]

Another act of selfishness on Melo's resume:

Y'all remember when Chauncey Billups was traded to the Nuggets that one year and resurrected the team? Was damn near an MVP candidate that season, and it was awesome to see. Of course he and Melo form a bond of sorts, and Melo could probably thank Billups a ton for coming in and handling the leadership role he obviously couldn't fill himself.

Fast forward to 2010, and it's time to force a trade to NY. Now, evidently, Billups loved it in Denver and was more than happy to be traded there. He was born and raised there, played college ball in Colorado, and by all means, did not want to leave. Not a big city guy like Melo, and he was in the twighlight of his career, but still playing well enough and feeling very comfortable with retiring as a Nugget. And this is a guy who deserves respect. Big time seniority over Melo, and a proven winner/NBA champ.

But Melo wanted NY. And he could have signed here as a FA just a few months later. We all know that. But Melo had to get his money up front, and he had to get out of Denver, asap. So f*ck you, Chauncey Billups. We're going to NY!!!

I remember Chauncey was pretty damn upset about that. Melo was happy though. Chauncey remained classy and supportive of Melo and tried to play his role for the Knicks like the pro that he always was.

Of course the Knicks were dominated in the playoffs that year. Billups went from being loved in Denver to being an afterthought in NY, and was eventually amnestied and sent away like a cheap hooker.

#stayme7o

are you serious with this or should this post have been highlighted in green?

[Phish Tank]

this thread has gone off the rails. It needs to be locked soon

[BigShot Bojan]

That's what you got out of that? That we're all just George Karl fans?

Not that a player refused to adapt to ...Karl ,Woodson, Fisher, or Hornacek

?

George Karl formed his offense and the bulk of his success in Denver around Carmelo Anthony and those teams were perennial 50+ win teams. The fact that they so happen to have never gone far in the playoffs says either something about BOTH Anthony and Karl (you know team wins and team loses?) OR possibly and rather simply that there just were better teams out there in the West (and there were) RATHER than Anthony being the reason they didn't go deep in playoffs as is the common lemming driven narrative.

Woodson LOVED Anthony. Formed his offense around Anthony. Was the most successful Knicks head coach (relatively speaking) since Jeff Van Gundy with Anthony. So not sure where he refused to adapt to Woodson comes from...

Fisher? What beef did Anthony have with Fisher? Fisher didn't want to run the Triangle anymore than Anthony wanted to play in it. Fisher wanted to run an offense similar to what Karl ran in Denver because he apparently realized that his team wasn't put together to play the Triangle.

So that one outburst after an embarrassing loss to the Nets means Anthony refused to adapt to Hornacek (adapt to losing?)? So now you guys don't want him to be emotional? I thought one of the biggest complaints about him was that he doesn't get emotional? Can you guys make up your mind? Do you or do you not want him to get emotional about the losing?

The only guy that Anthony clearly "refused to adapt to" was Mike D'Antoni. And if D'Antoni was here when Jackson was here, D'Antoni would have been the first one to be let go cause D'Antoni most definitely would not have even remotely agreed to changing his system because his boss said so.

ughh you are right i just want him gone

[Handledatruth]

this thread has gone off the rails. It needs to be locked soon

Just getting my popcorn ready for when Phil Jackson starts sending cryptic messages next year about Kristaps shooting too many threes and how that hurts the offense. I'll remember this thread. Should be fun.

[KnicksGod]

It's the job of the GM/pres to speak publicly and he has a right to critique the roster and players in honest, though tempered, ways. He has done just that. Being the best player on a team carries some responsibilities, and one of them is being able to accept leadership, criticism and a higher standard. Melo can take it. Phil did nothing to him.

[KnickLeDime]

Melo is a known commodity, doesn't play ANY defense, doesn't move the ball. Who's the guy that resigned him AND gave him a NTC and now going to dump him for pennies on the dollar? Can't believe people just letting Phil slide on that.