"A Tale of 2 Hardawayz"

[dakomish23]

It is. Tim is the 29th highest paid SG/SF putting him almost exactly as the median starting wing when it comes to his contract (the true median is 30th ranked Tobias Harris at $16 million). Timmy is a slightly above average starter in terms of production, while being 1.2 years younger than the average player, and making $0.5 million over the average starter at the 2/3 (and that's including all the guys that got contracts in the old cap). That's a good deal no matter how you break it down.

Disagree. I look at a good deal as one where what your receive is better than what you paid for. Mediocre production on mediocre efficiency at more than 15% of the cap is a losing proposition.

It isn't though. He's still 25 with a chance to improve and make that contract a good contract and he wouldn't have to improve much to do it because he's already worth slightly more than he's being paid.

No way is he worth slightly more than he’s being paid IMO. We can agree to disagree.

[E-Balla]

there's no real difference between paying someone 16.7 percent or 25 percent because it takes away a slot that should be used for someone worth that much. you use about 70 to 75 percent for your top 3 and the rest on everyone else. if you have tim in one of those top 3 slots, how far can you go ?

We're paying $49.4 million to Kanter, Noah, LFT, and Baker. That's what's killing us not Timmy's $16.5 million. If Tim is your 3rd best player you can compete. He's better than the 3rd best player on every EC team outside of Washington and Philly (Boston too if Gordon comes back). In the West only Houston, OKC, GS, and New Orleans have a better 3rd option than Timmy. He was the 2nd best player on a 43 win team last year too.

With KP on a rookie deal locking up a young SG to go next to him should be a good move. Y'all letting other bad contracts paint how you feel about Timmy like his $16.5 million is stopping us from signing guys and not Noah's 18.5 million that many of you cheered for.

[god shammgod]

Tim tearing it up in the last ~25 games, again shows how league turns into complete garbage for the last 30 games.

With the exception when teams fighting for the play-offs play each other.

Other games are tanking teams trying to outtank each other with rolling out G-leaguers. Or even when PO teams play them, they know they aren't playing for ****, so they aren't giving even close to their 100%.

it's so true. even the playoff teams fighting each other look more tired than usual. you're not seeing too many classics at this point in the season.

i see people actually thinking willy is good now. as if. willy still aint sh*t. frank aint the best defender in the world. and trey iverson aint a top 10 point guard. this is all some bullsh*t.

[E-Balla]

Disagree. I look at a good deal as one where what your receive is better than what you paid for. Mediocre production on mediocre efficiency at more than 15% of the cap is a losing proposition.

It isn't though. He's still 25 with a chance to improve and make that contract a good contract and he wouldn't have to improve much to do it because he's already worth slightly more than he's being paid.

No way is he worth slightly more than he’s being paid IMO. We can agree to disagree.

He's making 16.5 million this year. He's definitely not the 15th best guy at his position he's over that.

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

The real truth is most teams get great because their max contract guy is worth way more than the max. Bron went 66-16 with horrible contracts around him. When Duncan was young they were winning 55+ games and rings with a bunch of meh contracts, meh talent, and a superstar vastly outperforming the max. When the Mavericks won they had one value deal (Kidd) and everyone else besides Dirk (who was way better than the max allowed) were on bad deals or meh deals.

If the Knicks are going to be great its because KP becomes one of those rare players worth way more than the max, we have a young guy on a good rookie contract, and the rest of the team is full of Timmy like deals (aka guys that are worth their contract and not more).

[god shammgod]

there's no real difference between paying someone 16.7 percent or 25 percent because it takes away a slot that should be used for someone worth that much. you use about 70 to 75 percent for your top 3 and the rest on everyone else. if you have tim in one of those top 3 slots, how far can you go ?

We're paying $49.4 million to Kanter, Noah, LFT, and Baker. That's what's killing us not Timmy's $16.5 million. If Tim is your 3rd best player you can compete. He's better than the 3rd best player on every EC team outside of Washington and Philly (Boston too if Gordon comes back). In the West only Houston, OKC, GS, and New Orleans have a better 3rd option than Timmy. He was the 2nd best player on a 43 win team last year too.

With KP on a rookie deal locking up a young SG to go next to him should be a good move. Y'all letting other bad contracts paint how you feel about Timmy like his $16.5 million is stopping us from signing guys and not Noah's 18.5 million that many of you cheered for.

yes, the entire cap is f*cked, but all their deals will end before timmy. you're naming all the better teams and saying those teams have better 3rd options. that's my exact point.

[E-Balla]

Tim tearing it up in the last ~25 games, again shows how league turns into complete garbage for the last 30 games.

With the exception when teams fighting for the play-offs play each other.

Other games are tanking teams trying to outtank each other with rolling out G-leaguers. Or even when PO teams play them, they know they aren't playing for ****, so they aren't giving even close to their 100%.

it's so true. even the playoff teams fighting each other look more tired than usual. you're not seeing too many classics at this point in the season.

i see people actually thinking willy is good now. as if. willy still aint sh*t. frank aint the best defender in the world. and trey iverson aint a top 10 point guard. this is all some bullsh*t.

From November to the end of January Timmy averaged 18.3/4.5/3.0 on 55.9 TS% and the team went 11-13 (and remember he was banged up for a while). Y'all acting like he wasn't playing good before now.

And I see you snuck in a jab at Willy because he cracked the rotation in Charlotte and looks good (like he did in NY). The Hornets board already gave him 2 player of the game awards which is only less than Dwight, Kemba, Batum, Kaminsky, MKG, and Lamb and he's only got PT in 9 games. He ain't even a Knick and you gotta still **** on him because you don't want to admit maybe he's actually productive.

[dakomish23]

It isn't though. He's still 25 with a chance to improve and make that contract a good contract and he wouldn't have to improve much to do it because he's already worth slightly more than he's being paid.

No way is he worth slightly more than he’s being paid IMO. We can agree to disagree.

He's making 16.5 million this year. He's definitely not the 15th best guy at his position he's over that.

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

The real truth is most teams get great because their max contract guy is worth way more than the max. Bron went 66-16 with horrible contracts around him. When Duncan was young they were winning 55+ games and rings with a bunch of meh contracts, meh talent, and a superstar vastly outperforming the max. When the Mavericks won they had one value deal (Kidd) and everyone else besides Dirk (who was way better than the max allowed) were on bad deals or meh deals.

If the Knicks are going to be great its because KP becomes one of those rare players worth way more than the max, we have a young guy on a good rookie contract, and the rest of the team is full of Timmy like deals (aka guys that are worth their contract and not more).

Wait are you saying he’s in the top 15?

[god shammgod]

It isn't though. He's still 25 with a chance to improve and make that contract a good contract and he wouldn't have to improve much to do it because he's already worth slightly more than he's being paid.

No way is he worth slightly more than he’s being paid IMO. We can agree to disagree.

He's making 16.5 million this year. He's definitely not the 15th best guy at his position he's over that.

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

The real truth is most teams get great because their max contract guy is worth way more than the max. Bron went 66-16 with horrible contracts around him. When Duncan was young they were winning 55+ games and rings with a bunch of meh contracts, meh talent, and a superstar vastly outperforming the max. When the Mavericks won they had one value deal (Kidd) and everyone else besides Dirk (who was way better than the max allowed) were on bad deals or meh deals.

If the Knicks are going to be great its because KP becomes one of those rare players worth way more than the max, we have a young guy on a good rookie contract, and the rest of the team is full of Timmy like deals (aka guys that are worth their contract and not more).

you do need one of the better players in the league. that's true. is kp that ? it doesn't seem likely. so you already took up two spots on guys that weren't.

leborn didn't win it all without a 3rd option better than timmy. bosh and then love. the mavs had dirk, tyson, marion. duncan had robinson and elliot.

[E-Balla]

there's no real difference between paying someone 16.7 percent or 25 percent because it takes away a slot that should be used for someone worth that much. you use about 70 to 75 percent for your top 3 and the rest on everyone else. if you have tim in one of those top 3 slots, how far can you go ?

We're paying $49.4 million to Kanter, Noah, LFT, and Baker. That's what's killing us not Timmy's $16.5 million. If Tim is your 3rd best player you can compete. He's better than the 3rd best player on every EC team outside of Washington and Philly (Boston too if Gordon comes back). In the West only Houston, OKC, GS, and New Orleans have a better 3rd option than Timmy. He was the 2nd best player on a 43 win team last year too.

With KP on a rookie deal locking up a young SG to go next to him should be a good move. Y'all letting other bad contracts paint how you feel about Timmy like his $16.5 million is stopping us from signing guys and not Noah's 18.5 million that many of you cheered for.

yes, the entire cap is f*cked, but all their deals will end before timmy. you're naming all the better teams and saying those teams have better 3rd options. that's my exact point.

Its not about the teams I named its about the ones I didn't. Toronto is the top seed in the East with Serge Ibaka making 21 million as their 3rd option (and Serge at this point ain't better than Timmy). Utah is 5th in SRS and 26-7 since Gobert got healthy without a better 3rd option than Timmy. Portland is on pace for 50 wins and Nurkic isn't better than Timmy. Minny when Jimmy was healthy was on pace to top 50 wins and Taj ain't better than Timmy. If KP ends up a top 5 player in the league we'll need someone like Timmy around him if we want to win. Yeah he needs a 2nd option but Timmy's contract won't stop us from getting a 2nd option.

And yeah their contracts end before Timmy. His contract and that one extra year on it vs Noah still isn't stopping us from signing people. After next year we'll be giving KP $30 million - that's what's going to be stopping us. We gotta pay Kanter up until we pay KP.

[E-Balla]

No way is he worth slightly more than he’s being paid IMO. We can agree to disagree.

He's making 16.5 million this year. He's definitely not the 15th best guy at his position he's over that.

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

The real truth is most teams get great because their max contract guy is worth way more than the max. Bron went 66-16 with horrible contracts around him. When Duncan was young they were winning 55+ games and rings with a bunch of meh contracts, meh talent, and a superstar vastly outperforming the max. When the Mavericks won they had one value deal (Kidd) and everyone else besides Dirk (who was way better than the max allowed) were on bad deals or meh deals.

If the Knicks are going to be great its because KP becomes one of those rare players worth way more than the max, we have a young guy on a good rookie contract, and the rest of the team is full of Timmy like deals (aka guys that are worth their contract and not more).

Wait are you saying he’s in the top 15?

At SG? Easy.

[god shammgod]

Tim tearing it up in the last ~25 games, again shows how league turns into complete garbage for the last 30 games.

With the exception when teams fighting for the play-offs play each other.

Other games are tanking teams trying to outtank each other with rolling out G-leaguers. Or even when PO teams play them, they know they aren't playing for ****, so they aren't giving even close to their 100%.

it's so true. even the playoff teams fighting each other look more tired than usual. you're not seeing too many classics at this point in the season.

i see people actually thinking willy is good now. as if. willy still aint sh*t. frank aint the best defender in the world. and trey iverson aint a top 10 point guard. this is all some bullsh*t.

From November to the end of January Timmy averaged 18.3/4.5/3.0 on 55.9 TS% and the team went 11-13 (and remember he was banged up for a while). Y'all acting like he wasn't playing good before now.

And I see you snuck in a jab at Willy because he cracked the rotation in Charlotte and looks good (like he did in NY). The Hornets board already gave him 2 player of the game awards which is only less than Dwight, Kemba, Batum, Kaminsky, MKG, and Lamb and he's only got PT in 9 games. He ain't even a Knick and you gotta still **** on him because you don't want to admit maybe he's actually productive.

how did i sneak it in ? it was blatant.

i don't buy end of the year production in general. i've seen this too many times. he did the same thing at the end of last year. it doesn't surprise me. it's not actually even personal with willy, his type of player is next to useless now in the nba. he's not quick enough to switch and defend. he has no ability to stretch the defense. his own coach said it.

[E-Balla]

No way is he worth slightly more than he’s being paid IMO. We can agree to disagree.

He's making 16.5 million this year. He's definitely not the 15th best guy at his position he's over that.

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

The real truth is most teams get great because their max contract guy is worth way more than the max. Bron went 66-16 with horrible contracts around him. When Duncan was young they were winning 55+ games and rings with a bunch of meh contracts, meh talent, and a superstar vastly outperforming the max. When the Mavericks won they had one value deal (Kidd) and everyone else besides Dirk (who was way better than the max allowed) were on bad deals or meh deals.

If the Knicks are going to be great its because KP becomes one of those rare players worth way more than the max, we have a young guy on a good rookie contract, and the rest of the team is full of Timmy like deals (aka guys that are worth their contract and not more).

you do need one of the better players in the league. that's true. is kp that ? it doesn't seem likely. so you already took up two spots on guys that weren't.

leborn didn't win it all without a 3rd option better than timmy. bosh and then love. the mavs had dirk, tyson, marion. duncan had robinson and elliot.

KP being that guy is all we can hope for unless you want to give up on him already which isn't a smart idea imo. If he starts playing tough he'll be a monster.

And Lebron didn't win it all without a better 3rd option but Lebron has his own issues doing **** like giving up on his team. And Timmy ain't worse than old man Terry/Kidd/Marion (whoever you think was the 3rd best player on the Mavs after Tyson and Dirk). He's also not ay all worse than everyone but Timmy on the 03 Spurs. Washed up Robinson that averaged 5/5 in their 2 toughest series? 29 year old TP that got benched for a scrub in important games? 12 ppg S. Jack? Rookie Manu? Come on now.

At this point NY either needs to dump KP and restart or continue to build around him like he's the future of the league because we don't want to be caught like New Orleans and Milwaukee with one of the best young guys and no team around them.

[Deeeez Knicks]

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

Yeah its not a good buisness model especially when you are a lottery team and looking to trade someone like Melo. It really made no sense.

if you are already a contender and/or have your core in place then sometimes it makes sense to pay a guy like that.

[E-Balla]

it's so true. even the playoff teams fighting each other look more tired than usual. you're not seeing too many classics at this point in the season.

i see people actually thinking willy is good now. as if. willy still aint sh*t. frank aint the best defender in the world. and trey iverson aint a top 10 point guard. this is all some bullsh*t.

From November to the end of January Timmy averaged 18.3/4.5/3.0 on 55.9 TS% and the team went 11-13 (and remember he was banged up for a while). Y'all acting like he wasn't playing good before now.

And I see you snuck in a jab at Willy because he cracked the rotation in Charlotte and looks good (like he did in NY). The Hornets board already gave him 2 player of the game awards which is only less than Dwight, Kemba, Batum, Kaminsky, MKG, and Lamb and he's only got PT in 9 games. He ain't even a Knick and you gotta still **** on him because you don't want to admit maybe he's actually productive.

how did i sneak it in ? it was blatant.

i don't buy end of the year production in general. i've seen this too many times. he did the same thing at the end of last year. it doesn't surprise me. it's not actually even personal with willy, his type of player is next to useless now in the nba. he's not quick enough to switch and defend. he has no ability to stretch the defense. his own coach said it.

His own coach was playing him as they were chasing a playoff spot though. Before the 3 game losing streak that just took them out the hunt Willy was in the rotation for 6 games and played 16 mpg. In NY last year prior to All Star break he was averaging 6.6/5.9 in 16 mpg and had posters that pay attention like me saying he should replace Noah in the rotation. But act like it's only because its the end of the year. When he plays well next year you'll probably write that off too...

[god shammgod]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

[E-Balla]

in the nba you're really only as good as your best players. if you pay the tobias harris's or tim hardaway jr's of the world as one of your best players, you're never getting anywhere. you have to have patience until you find the right guys worth investing in. average salary in the nba is not a way to judge making a good financial decision because most teams aren't that good.

Yeah its not a good buisness model especially when you are a lottery team and looking to trade someone like Melo. It really made no sense.

if you are already a contender and/or have your core in place then sometimes it makes sense to pay a guy like that.

You guys don't understand that after next year we have to sign KP. To a max deal. If Timmy wasn't on the books we'd have only 17 million in the 2018 free agency and 10 million in the 2019 free agency (assuming we resign KP). Who are we getting for 17 this year or 10 million the year after better than Timmy? Please elaborate for me?

That's what y'all don't get. Noah/Lance/Lee/Kanter (or Melo) already ruined our cap situation until KP gets paid and after KP gets paid we won't have the cap to add anyone.

[Marty McFly]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

I don't care how good anyone thinks Tim is or can be. If he’s your third best player, he better be on a rookie scale contract. What kinda backward as **** is paying your third best guy top guy money when you don’t have a #2 in place and you don’t even know if your #1 is a #1 or a #2?

[IllmaticHandler]

it's so true. even the playoff teams fighting each other look more tired than usual. you're not seeing too many classics at this point in the season.

i see people actually thinking willy is good now. as if. willy still aint sh*t. frank aint the best defender in the world. and trey iverson aint a top 10 point guard. this is all some bullsh*t.

[mpharris36]

Tim tearing it up in the last ~25 games, again shows how league turns into complete garbage for the last 30 games.

With the exception when teams fighting for the play-offs play each other.

Other games are tanking teams trying to outtank each other with rolling out G-leaguers. Or even when PO teams play them, they know they aren't playing for ****, so they aren't giving even close to their 100%.

it's so true. even the playoff teams fighting each other look more tired than usual. you're not seeing too many classics at this point in the season.

i see people actually thinking willy is good now. as if. willy still aint sh*t. frank aint the best defender in the world. and trey iverson aint a top 10 point guard. this is all some bullsh*t.

well damn

[E-Balla]

look, if your point is that timmy could be the 3rd option with duncan or lebron in his prime and win. you're right. that seems possible. but kp is not and will never be duncan or lebron in his prime. i can tell you that right now. i'm sure. and no, i'm not saying dump kp. he certainly can be a 2nd or 3rd option. a much better one than timmy.

If KP isn't a first option we should dump him because we will have to give him the max after next season and unless he's worth more than the max we won't be able to build anything championship level. That's just how the league works. The max contract has been around since 99 and outside of the 04 Pistons (who can't be built anymore since the league tilted the balance towards offense through rule changes) Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Timmy, Curry, Shaq, and KG have been the best/highest paid player on every championship team and all of them are top 20-30ish players ever peak for peak and MVPs. Only Wade who was on a rookie contract doesn't apply. You're not winning unless your max contract guy is outperforming the max and you can't fit more than 2 max guys on a team. Giving one max to KP means we'll have to draft the other because we won't have cap space at all thanks to Phil.